[Preview] Elder Scrolls Online: The Alliance War Gets It Right

BillMurphy

There has been a lot of discussion about whether or not The Elder Scrolls Online gets this or that right over the past week or so, but what is really going to make or break ESO is the quality of the game’s Alliance vs. Alliance warfare. Face it, AvA is the feature that really has the potential to set ESO apart from its peers; it’s the game’s secret sauce.

Read more of Michael Bitton's Elder Scrolls Online: Alliance War Gets It Right.

bcbully

Yep good fun. In the same vain as Planetside 2. Log in and battle for some hours.

 

udon

I find it interesting that the 2nd wave of previews that came from people who played the game past the tutorial zones are much more positive.

BillMurphy

Originally posted by udon
I find it interesting that the 2nd wave of previews that came from people who played the game past the tutorial zones are much more positive.

It's probably the game's biggest hurdle right now.  The first 5-7 levels or so are a handheld snoozefest.  But once you break into the wider world, and then AVA at level 10, and dual hotbars at 15... well, the game's true scope can be seen.

bcbully

Originally posted by BillMurphy

Originally posted by udon
I find it interesting that the 2nd wave of previews that came from people who played the game past the tutorial zones are much more positive.

It's probably the game's biggest hurdle right now.  The first 5-7 levels or so are a handheld snoozefest.  But once you break into the wider world, and then AVA at level 10, and dual hotbars at 15... well, the game's true scope can be seen.

This^^ I wont level another to 10 until launch. 

udon

Originally posted by BillMurphy

Originally posted by udon
I find it interesting that the 2nd wave of previews that came from people who played the game past the tutorial zones are much more positive.

It's probably the game's biggest hurdle right now.  The first 5-7 levels or so are a handheld snoozefest.  But once you break into the wider world, and then AVA at level 10, and dual hotbars at 15... well, the game's true scope can be seen.

I don't disagree with you except to say that those early levels feel like the early levels of past TES games.  TES games traditionally have been paced much slower than other SPG's and especially your average MMO.  I know some people might hate that but I find it add's more of a TES feel to the game that would be missing if you hit level 10 in a hour.

ESO is like it's music in that it starts slow and builds in tension and scale over time rather than starting with a boom.

rasli

How close can you place those forward camps from the battlefield in term of time to run back to fight?  Is there a limit on how many forward camps you can have?

LisaFlexy22

Good article thanks

WikileaksEU

It's a big map but a big map will cause lag when enough players is in it and enough particle effects flying around everywhere. ArenaNet did it better by separating different parts into borderlands and lessen the lag.

rasli

i would hold judgement on performance until the game actually launches.  I still remember how people were saying the performance in WvW was great during the GW2 beta events, the problem of culling (until it is removed) did not show up as a big concern until the game actually launched.

MikeB

Originally posted by WikileaksEU
It's a big map but a big map will cause lag when enough players is in it and enough particle effects flying around everywhere. ArenaNet did it better by separating different parts into borderlands and lessen the lag.

Except it didn't. I was in a FULL map and it performed leaps and bounds better than GW2 did. It also doesn't have the visual FX soup that GW2 has. Mentioned both of these in the article.

LisaFlexy22

Originally posted by WikileaksEU
It's a big map but a big map will cause lag when enough players is in it and enough particle effects flying around everywhere. ArenaNet did it better by separating different parts into borderlands and lessen the lag.

No it didn't.  I have gotten better performance in ESO and it's one giant zone instead of being separated which I find much more enjoyable.

Silverune

Problem is there is still no reason to hold keeps. The zerg just abandons and moves onto the next leaving it undefended and retaken within the hour. GW2 still suffers a heck of a lot from this merry go round.

 

Pirhana7

I have to agree.  ESO's AVA has been the first game to give me that PVP with a purpose feel that Darkage of Camelot gave me long ago.  The PVP left me with the sense that I was building and leveling my character for a reason, the purpose to defend my alliance and my lands.  Cyrodiil was everything I have been waiting for, and had everything that GW2 failed to do.

ButeoRegalis

Haven't read anything yet that addresses the big issues that GW2 WvW ran into, aside from the larger map, though ESO's waypoint system may defeat that.

What about

• server stacking, here: alliance stacking. Note: if 90% of the players join alliance A, it doesn't matter if you have 1, 2 or 20 opposing factions, it'll be face-roll all day every day; unless miraculously people spread out semi-evenly over the alliances..., coz, yea, that's totally going to happen; and don't bring up 2v1 against the stronger server; that looks good on paper, but works so rarely in real play, it's a non-factor, you will much more likely see both the strongest and weakest beating on #2, either in an attempt to keep them down, or try to move past them
• off hour coverage/"night capping"
• "karma train", which I guess would be called "alliance point train"?, aka keep trading
• "hey, you got your Peee Weeee Eeeee into my Peee Weee Peeee!!! >:(" if there was one thing in Gw2 the hardcore WvWers really, really loved it was to find PvE content in WvW
• zerging if map size is made irrelevant by waypoints and on the other hand here, one dude knocking on a gate being able to block a waypoint
• hackers, though that will have to wait until the game comes out; GW2 had "orbs" initially that worked a little like the ESO scrolls and were constantly hacked to the point where ANet pulled them from the game (the orbs are back now, though only in name with a different mechanic)
• "spies"/trolls, people from other alliances, or from your own in case of trolls, playing in your alliance and actively hindering your alliance's war effort

Pirhana7

Actually a lot of those problems have been avoided.  There is no server stacking, They place guilds in campaigns and make sure they are balanced amonst the 3 alliances.

2v1 in Gw2 didn't work because it was a system of racing for the most points.  2nd place wanted points so 3rd place was an easier target.  In ESO its about controlling and defending keeps for their bonuses.  to get the first bonus you must control all your home territory keeps.  SO if 1 side is dominating and controlling most of the keeps and Elder Scrolls that means they have what the other 2 sides want and now the Dominate side has to defend on 2 fronts and dive its forces in half.

karma train.... there is no keep trading in ESO.  you actually get very little rewards for taking a keep.  get far more rewards for killing enemy players and defending.  Holding onto the keeps is the bonus you really want. and you must have all your home keeps for any bonus.  Even if 1 alliance starts dominating and has many bonuses from controlling a lot the map another alliance can neutralize those bonuses by going to the enemies home territory and takinga and defending one of their keeps.

Also groups will make much better rewards because playe rkill points are based off of damage done, not tagging like in GW2.  You wont make as many rewards by zerging.

udon

Originally posted by WikileaksEU
It's a big map but a big map will cause lag when enough players is in it and enough particle effects flying around everywhere. ArenaNet did it better by separating different parts into borderlands and lessen the lag.

I was in some very big fights with siege engines all over the place and a ton of players attacking the fort and there was no lag and no culling from what I could see.  I don't know how ESO managed to pull it off but from what I saw they did a great job with network optimization especially considering it's still beta.

MikeB

Originally posted by ButeoRegalis

Haven't read anything yet that addresses the big issues that GW2 WvW ran into, aside from the larger map, though ESO's waypoint system may defeat that.

What about

• server stacking, here: alliance stacking. Note: if 90% of the players join alliance A, it doesn't matter if you have 1, 2 or 20 opposing factions, it'll be face-roll all day every day; unless miraculously people spread out semi-evenly over the alliances..., coz, yea, that's totally going to happen; and don't bring up 2v1 against the stronger server; that looks good on paper, but works so rarely in real play, it's a non-factor, you will much more likely see both the strongest and weakest beating on #2, either in an attempt to keep them down, or try to move past them
• off hour coverage/"night capping"
• "karma train", which I guess would be called "alliance point train"?, aka keep trading
• "hey, you got your Peee Weeee Eeeee into my Peee Weee Peeee!!! >:(" if there was one thing in Gw2 the hardcore WvWers really, really loved it was to find PvE content in WvW
• zerging if map size is made irrelevant by waypoints and on the other hand here, one dude knocking on a gate being able to block a waypoint
• hackers, though that will have to wait until the game comes out; GW2 had "orbs" initially that worked a little like the ESO scrolls and were constantly hacked to the point where ANet pulled them from the game (the orbs are back now, though only in name with a different mechanic)
• "spies"/trolls, people from other alliances, or from your own in case of trolls, playing in your alliance and actively hindering your alliance's war effort

I can address the population issue you mentioned. It's all population capped on a per alliance basis. The interface shows icons for all three alliances, and if one particular alliance is at their population cap in the campaign, you'll have to queue to get in if you are a member of that alliance. If everyone from one alliance wants to join the same campaign, well, most of them aren't going to actually get in and play in any reasonable amount of time.

Night capping doesn't really matter. If your alliance isn't skilled enough to hold things during the day, their conquests will be short lived anyways.

I'm chatting with Brian Wheeler in an hour. I'll ask about keep trading and such.

The PvE content doesn't have any impact on PvP in Cyrodiil. It's a non-issue. It's out there if you want it, but it's not anything that intrudes on PvP gameplay in any way. If all you're doing is beelining for PvP objectives, you aren't really going to see much in the way of PvE. It's also not GW2 where you can do things in the PvE areas (like help Quaggans) and then have those PvE monsters aid your fight in WvW. Not the same thing at all.

Hackers are an issue for every game developer. All you can do is be vigilant and agile in responding.

You can't really game design around spies. It is what it is. If someone wants to make a new account or character just so he can join an alliance as part of a different faction and relay that back to his allies on his main faction, there isn't really anything you can do about it, and it cuts both ways, too.

FlyinDutchman87

Yeah.

 

I can say with complete honesty that the 1-7 grind in ESO is the single worst grind in any game i've EVER PLAYED.

It's Long, The quests are pointless and dull and without all of your skill bar filled the combat is completely mindless.

Once i got to 7 I started with Wyrd Sister quest line which is really well done.  That filled up my skill bar And that got me to 10 so i Could PvP. Which is where things improved ALOT, to the point that I pre-ordered even though I said i wan't going to.

Reallymj

Article was right on with what I experienced in Cryodiil. The amount of players on my screen was amazing and to see it run so fluidly was a visual masterpiece.

alkarionlog

things is I didn't see much diference save for size, we see on Gw2, people says W3 on GW2 don't give anything or gives reason for defending (save for pride I guess), and I saw that too on eso, course it gives a extra feeling of doing quests on it for extra alliance points, it also use the same boost gw2 give raising his lvls to the cap, but you are still pretty weak with the skills and gear, it also brings a new and annoying thing when you normally would res any dead in gw2 in eso even when anyone can also res any dead, he spend a soul gem with makes people not res allies if he is not know, because that would amke him lose money and the work to fill the gems.

 

well in resume they did copy the gw2 ideas, (even one of rift lol) but I don't see then doing it any better, also with all bugs I saw and pretty much bet will not be fixed on launch day. we will see a lot of rage posts here, for bugs and logging queues

darkeather2

I was very interested but I was stopped short at a certain point. I had come in thinking that the emperor was crowned by the entire faction making a vote on it, but now it's just a race to see is the best soldier? Pardon me if I'm wrong, but I had thought being emperor meant being a leader, not a soldier. I thought that Emperor would basicly be entitled to the leader of the guild that helped out the most/had the most people that orginized the best way, that the guild would actually like and /want/ to vote for.

May I remind you how the title of Grand Marshal/ High Warlord in WoW went about: "Ok, you all have to do 500 battlegrounds this time, and only the high warlord for this week can do more then that, or else you will be banned."  It became less about working to achieve that goal, and more of finding the right guild that will eventually let you have your turn by lessening what everyone else in said guild is allowed to do.

I personally think the vote encouraged leaders to step up, and their followers to do their duty.

SoulTrapOnSelf

I will be on top of the keep throwing rocks at you all!

udon

Originally posted by FlyinDutchman87

Yeah.

 

I can say with complete honesty that the 1-7 grind in ESO is the single worst grind in any game i've EVER PLAYED.

It's Long, The quests are pointless and dull and without all of your skill bar filled the combat is completely mindless.

Once i got to 7 I started with Wyrd Sister quest line which is really well done.  That filled up my skill bar And that got me to 10 so i Could PvP. Which is where things improved ALOT, to the point that I pre-ordered even though I said i wan't going to.

I think we as gamers have been taught to focus to much on where we are going and not enough on what we are doing that moment.  Yea the first 10 levels or so came slowly but skill points where scattered among them which is really much more important.  Gear upgrades every 2 levels vs most MMO's that do it every 5 to 10 so even with the slower levels if your focused on keeping up your stats your going to be spending time acquiring upgraded gear just as often as the faster level games.

What struck me is how much the leveling felt like a TES game.  It wasn't identical but it was paced a lot slower than a typical MMO.  Honestly they could cut the levels in half double the time it takes to earn each one and scatter more skill points around the world and it would feel much more a game like Morrowind.  But given all the complaints people have levied about the leveling speed being what it is that's not a realistic expectation.

As for the quests my only complaints about the design and structure of the early zones is they feel a little barren.  I put that in my feedback both times I did the survey and hopefully others did to but I don't think the fix is to speed up leveling.  It's to add more to the low level zones.

Pirhana7

First thing is they are not copying GW2,  they are using Darkage of Camelots system which is 13 years old now.  GW2 kinda brought it back but they changed lot of things.

Reasons to defend would be, because you make more rewards than attacking keeps.  Player kills are worth a lot more.  Also controlling keeps gives you the bonuse for PVP and PVE, but you must control all your home keeps for these bonuses.  You may not have seen it in the weeknd beta but once the game launches and people are apart of a campaign (server) you will want to control keeps for yourside, especially your home territory keeps.  You will want these bonuses for leveling and doing everything.  In the beta people don't really care because its over in 2 days and nothing matters.

Tha map layout also makes it much easier to efend your home keeps than attack enemy keeps

Scot

Many gamers will for the first time be getting a taste of three way realm versus realm. This set up has been around a long time, Darkness Falls a text based MUD from the 90's was used as the core concept for Dark Ages of Camelot the MMO launched in 2001.

But three factions, let alone 3 way RvR is expensive and so players have only really had one other opportunity to try it out in 13 years. Warhammer however was not a success, RvR does not guarantee anything.

But when a MMO works well, realm versus realm is the icing on the cake. It makes PvP instances look tiny and zerge battles look pointless.

When we see some actual reviews we will have a better idea, but they have definitely aimed high.