Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
What's wrong with MMOs: Efficiency
Magiknight
Member CommonPosts: 782
My argument is that efficiency kills MMOs and makes them lifeless worlds.
On these forums people talk about the different things they find wrong with mmos. The dungeons, quest markers, instant teleportation, group finder, etc. are all things people debate. Some people like these systems but obviously a lot of people don't. I don't have time to read the pages and pages of posts about these topics but they all basically come down to efficiency. Do you want to run for 15 minutes to your next location or click a button and be there? Spend 30 minutes forming a good group or have one made at the click of a button that will work with anyone in it? Ad infinitum
Once you make these systems standard you take out people having to put forth effort to achieve anything in the game. Everyone's on autopilot scrambling from point a to point b as fast as they can. If no one is reaching out for specific people to fill in roles in their party, or asking how do I do this quest, or taking longer journeys with other people next to them for protection and talking to them, or relying on other classes for an ability only they have then there is no community. The only thing that gets accomplished is exactly what the quest asked for. Nothing on top of that. If there was less of a drive for efficiency and more of a drive for a organic world then more things would happen besides simply what the quest asks. People would learn from each other.
I'd type more but I'm bored....
Comments
What kills MMOs.
1. Piss poor community standards (e.g., devs can also be as much the problem as the community they attract).
2. Zergs (made possible because of constant cycling of buffs/nerfs/FoTM builds).
3. Too many classes that can't be balanced.
4. No lasting permanence (when Cata came I flat out told Blizzard destroy the world itself, it destroys the anchor to the game. It's like putting to rest your toons and walking away from the funeral, as it too was firebombed).
The latter is a prime sticking point to me, because after facing Cata and yet another expansion of purple>green>blue>purple gear cycle, it got old after 2 expansions. The fourth expansion is like eating chopped liver and onions for the 4th day in a row. -_-
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
There is no challenge anymore.
Efficiency is the name of the genre, right now. Efficiency affects so many aspects of the games, the top one being roleplaying activities. Those activities are the "poster boy" for inefficiency.
That is what the players today want, though. Those same players that do not have time to actually play a video game. They gotta squeeze in 5 minutes here, 30 minutes there. And their gameplay better net them some achievements and progression, or they will find a game that does give them this. Please, let them find something other than MMORPGs for this.
I want INEFFICIENT MMORPGs to waste my time in. I want downtime. I want to relax in an MMORPG, not have unending action. I am the minority, yet willing to pay for my entertainment.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Want to relax?
Fish! And I mean f-i-s-h like it's going to end tomorrow...
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/guild/shandris/I_AM_A_HOLY_PALADIN/achievement#15080:a5468
Harvest! To the point that Blizzard thinks you're a bot!
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/guild/shandris/I_AM_A_HOLY_PALADIN/achievement#15080:a5027
If more folks banded together to say, "my time sinks aren't killing the nth mob", then there would be more than just pewpewpew in games with the meters in tow.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
I think "convenience" would be a more correct term, instead of "efficiency". I agree that this idea that players should have access to the "action" as fast as possible is one of the reasons MMORPGS feel so dull and watered-downs, having become lobby-based arcade games.
Looks like some people don't understand the importance of the journey and the fact that you have to go through the deeper valleys to then enjoy the glory of success. Also, most MMORPGs underestimate the potential of the journey itself. I mean that, for instance, one player having to travel to the other corner of the world to meet his friend should be an adventure of its own. Unfortunately, you cannot accomplish this on an on-rails, themepark model.
Then, you have the entitled people who say the "I don't have time so change the game to my schedule" bullshit. As my experience's shown me, this in most cases is pure dogshit, it's like the friend who says "I'm too busy" when you propose to go trekking on a Saturday morning - then of course, you realize the guy in question was sleeping.
Really, I don't know how some people can be so selfish, hypocrite and egotistical, they want to have everything at the expense of others while they don't make any effort to prioritize what they like, they just want to have everything and they want it now! I work in an IT Consulting company, live with a gf, no children, just a cat. Like most people in the western world, finish my work at 18:00pm maximum - many people in the same sector finish at 15:00, as do the people that have children. I have to do the usual chores, shopping, gym, social beers, etc. After all this - If I want - I can have 2h/day minimum to play RPGs (22-24, 21-24). This is because I think telly is bullshit so I don't watch it, prefer RPG to pass my time. I prioritize RPG over other home-based hobbies because I have a passion for it, because it's one of my true hobbies. I can do this now as I have a more stable life - In my College-Uni days I prioritized other stuff (fun and frolics, artie stuff, etc) and I just didn't play RPG neither MMORPGs, I didn't go to the forums to whine.
But not, some people say: Fuck you, I'm more important than you and demand the games to be changed to fit my "I want everything now" mentality, spoiling a whole genre in the way. And not only on one or a bunch of games - which would be fair and dandy for all of us - they want EVERY frigging game changed to their personal schedule, they are like the plague, like a fucking cancer. Fucking self-obsessed whiny entitled bastards, you and the corporate scum that is nowadays in charge of gaming are the BIG reasons this genre sucks so much: Hope you finally choke big time due to having your head in your butt for so long!! Seriously...
PD: Pardon my language, this is an Alex Jones-level epic rant.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
Blizzard calls these changes 'quality of life' changes and they are all directly asked for by players. Ghostcrawler has talked about this. The thing is modern companies want to be listening to the consumers - so they respond to these desires. But these design changes can cause players to burn through content faster then ever.
So really its a judgement call. You have to give players enough ease of play so the stick around - but not so much that all you have is the 'core' of the game - which becomes very repetitive. WoW is a great example of this..
They were able to remove the 'treks' to the dungeons - but this meant in the long run you end up 'grinding' more dungeons and see a lot less of the outside zones. OTOH if you make people run everywhere like in EQ you will have a lot of people quitting for games with more QoL. The key is to keep the customers interests in mind but not give into demands that will hurt your game long term.. You know like a pay for level scheme.
I agree with allot that has been said here and i pity the younger gamers out here who only know what a mmo is like since wow. WoW and all the mmos that have come since have lost the journey and consentrated on the max level thing. The old MMO like EQ would take you years to max out your char and i to this day 14 years later haven't maxed out my main and i probably would never of had i stayed playing after it went F2P. Sure i reached level 95 which was the max back then but it wasn't about being max level it was about knowing how to play your char,how to max your chars resists,dps and ac ect.
I have know tons of crap maxed level peeps but very few good players who are maxed. The journey is everything if you want to play a MMO the way a MMO should be played.
Yep, I've been saying this for years, but I like how you to sum it up with a single word.
Yes, "efficiency" and "convenience" and "Quality of Life" are the modern buzzwords, and any big-budget game that hopes to attract a very large playerbase has to incorporate those features. The customer is always right (if you want his cash, that is).
At first glance, it looks like ESO has deliberately removed (or watered-down) some of the "conveniences" that players expect in modern MMO's without question. It is going to be VERY interesting watching the events unfold after launch. How many players will refuse to accept the game design ? How long will ZOS hold out before they cave on things like a global AH ?
Wildstar, on the other hand, seems to have decided not to rock the MMO boat at all, unless I've missed something. Will this work in their favour and draw punters away from ESO ? Or will it just result in the majority of the playerbase flying through the game and leaving after 2-3 months, as most recent MMO's have experienced ?
If they have WoW to go back to, why would they need to stay in another game? Try it, yes, but getting keepers? No.
As long as WoW holds a huge amount of players hostage (e.g., time+investment), the other publishers can just hope to get crumbs. Those who got out in vanilla and TBC did so without investing much, those who stayed past WotLK are committed. Endured Cata, more so. o.O
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
I wonder how many "things aren't like they used to be" threads we can have in one week. For all the talk of how MMORPGs are dying, or the worlds are dying, etc., more and more people are playing more and more different MMORPGs. More MMORPGs are getting built, and the budgets for the games are increasing as well. When the games do release, they are more likely to actually be playable, and the number of missing features is getting smaller as well.
The biggest problem with MMORPGs (on these forums) is that they are no longer trying to be a niche product for a small number of players. MMORPGs are no longer an exclusive club or a secret garden.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I'd rather say that they build games that shouldn't have the MMORPG acronym, specially the last three letters. And let's not comment about the value and functional scope of such products: just McDonalds type of products for the fast and compulsive consumption of consumers that either don't know what they want or where are going but in spite of this are always in a hurry.
Pathetic.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
You know how Marketing misnomers work, just say a buzzword and the cattle follow (hey mum, I'm a roleplayer now!). I'd much prefer quality and honesty over quantity and misnomers, but that's just me.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
This is also why I don't stay with any new games once I hit level cap.. It's the same green, blue, purple game, just with different colors.. If I wanted to play that formula, I'd just stay with WoW..
I actually agree with you on this. The thing is that computers, games, and MMOs were something I really loved. Now that they have mass market appeal they are being marketed to people who don't really care about gaming at all. They are catering to people who just want to jump into a game for a quick fix. They basically have made computers and gaming a big joke.
There is a small niche of people who want a punishing game to week out those people who are just want to jump in and jump out. Unfortunately for those who want it game developers don't seem to care. Perhaps they share the sentiment that people like ourselves spend to much time on games and not enough of other things, but it's more likely they just want as much money as possible.
The problem comes with the definition of 'punishing'.
- most complex strategy titles are 'punishing'. You start, and it takes time to learn how to play - during that time you will tend to lose in a variety of depressing ways.- hearthstone arena is 'punishing'. A combination of skill, knowledge and luck.
- the EQNL landmark is "punishing" for harvesting burled wood. It's tedious and soul destroying.
Too often the MMO genre is best described as 'burled wood'.
My definition of punishing is that you can't progress if you die more often then succeed. In most games now there is no penalty for failure short of a slap on the hand. You don't lose experience gained or items you worked hard to get. In EQ most people who weren't good enough to progress past a certain point quit the game. I'm willing to bet many people who say combat is easy in MMOs would start quitting in droves if they were faced with a major death penalty of some sort that stopped them from leveling. Everyone says Healing, CC, Tank, Pulling, etc. is easy to do in combat. I'm willing to be these same people fail their task quite often, but because there is no major penalty for failure they go back again and keep trying until they succeed. Then they complain it is too easy.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Grind is more a test of patience. I'm sure that some people wouldn't play because of time constraints and lack of desire to spend a certain amount of time on a game.
AI difficulty doesn't really make the game harder if you can quickly retry the battle over and over again until you win with no penalty.
If you have a death penalty in place that hinders progression if you die a lot then your strategy will have to be a good one to succeed and you will need to execute it well.
nah .. it is a good thing. In fact, it is more convenience than efficiencies.
If i don't want to spend 30 min walking, and want to do some action combat, it is not a "better" (for me) game to force me to walk.
And you are right, i don't want to put effort into walking ... that is not fun. However, putting some effort into challenging combat .. that is another story. There is no reason for an entertainment product to force players putting in effort in non-fun parts.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
It is not really grind .. but boring tedious parts. D3 is pretty much a grind game with fun combat. Just go on armory and you can see people are putting hundred of hours into the game.
However, people are less willing to do stuff (like walking 30 min, or chat 20 min for a group) that they perceive as not fun.