The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
You clearly have no idea what an addiction is and why EQ was called Evercrack. Part of the addiction was the time required you could not play 3 hours a week in EQ and be relevant it was 20+
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Originally posted by Fenrir767 You clearly have no idea what an addiction is and why EQ was called Evercrack. Part of the addiction was the time required you could not play 3 hours a week in EQ and be relevant it was 20+
So your idea of addiction is commitment; okay. Yeah, I think I'll finish debating with you.
I am done debating with you aswell the fact that you think that 20+ hours minimum to be relevant is commitment pretty much sums up everything that is wrong with your argument. In many cases with EQ it was sometime 40, 60, 80 or more. That fact that game designed neccessitated that much time is a problem and if you don't think newer games have taken that into account wel......
Enjoy committing yourself to the virtual world while the real world passes you by
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Originally posted by kairel182 Originally posted by Kevyne-ShandrisWhat kills MMOs.1. Piss poor community standards (e.g., devs can also be as much the problem as the community they attract).2. Zergs (made possible because of constant cycling of buffs/nerfs/FoTM builds).3. Too many classes that can't be balanced.4. No lasting permanence (when Cata came I flat out told Blizzard destroy the world itself, it destroys the anchor to the game. It's like putting to rest your toons and walking away from the funeral, as it too was firebombed).The latter is a prime sticking point to me, because after facing Cata and yet another expansion of purple>green>blue>purple gear cycle, it got old after 2 expansions. The fourth expansion is like eating chopped liver and onions for the 4th day in a row. -_-
Here's a hint; QUIT PLAYING FUCKING WARCRACK. There are other games and more to come. The more you play and throw money at a game that has gone so far down hill since vanilla you continue to perpetuate these terrible ideas and designs because the suits think it's what people want.
nope. we can't blame WoW, every time, anymore. newer games have streamlined the game worlds even more. and their developers did so in defiance of WoW.
Originally posted by Flyte27 As I mentioned in another post I'm starting to believe more and more that it's the lack of any kind of real death penalty that is making games easy. Most will say death penalty doesn't make the combat harder. In that they are correct. It makes the game harder because you can't progress if you are going to die a lot during combat weather it be solo or filling a role in a group. I'm sure it's why a lot of people left EQ for WoW. I know I did at the time because i was frustrated at the lack of what I could do as a solo player. Looking back it was a good mechanic for showing what players were really good. I was a decent player and eventually figured out how to solo my way up slowly, but the ones that were really great were the ones that would group, go in dungeons to camp, and raid. I was never able to really perform well in those situations on a consistent enough basis to do make progress or complete dungeons that were appropriate for my level. I always went into dungeons when the mobs were grey (no longer gave experience). Some people could never make it past the early levels of the game. I don't think it's a matter of the combat in games today being to easy. I just think it's to easy to progress forward regardless of how ineffective a player you are in solo or group PvE. It really has diminished the challenge of the PvE experience.
Or maybe just maybe it's not the death penalty itself. I believe the entire issue lies with the lack of grind in newer games. You can have no death penalty by simply increasing the grind that's required within the game.
It's not the death penalty that makes gear feel valuable; it's grind. It's not death penalty that makes the game harder; it's AI difficulty. It's not death penalty that makes progression longer; it's grind.
Grind is more a test of patience. I'm sure that some people wouldn't play because of time constraints and lack of desire to spend a certain amount of time on a game.
AI difficulty doesn't really make the game harder if you can quickly retry the battle over and over again until you win with no penalty.
If you have a death penalty in place that hinders progression if you die a lot then your strategy will have to be a good one to succeed and you will need to execute it well.
Lets spin the tables again. Death penalty is also a test of patience that only hurts the player. You gain nothing from dying. Death penalty is simply a punishment to the player that failed; Is failing not enough?
If you had the old MMO system where you lost exp and gear (ex: Everquest) would it not be a test of patience? Imagine playing back in the day when you were leveling through the 'hell' levels and you died. It's becomes a test of patience to push through the deaths that have been inflicted.
However, grind isn't a punishment. It's valuable, it puts value in your gear. Unique items the have a low drop rate actually have a purpose as you level. Rather than replacing it with a common/uncommon item 5 levels later. Grind is progression and perpetual progression will make a game last; not death penalty.
Actually it would be more a test of if you can come up with a good plan and execute it without having to try over and over again. It would also test the players ability to execute well on a consistent basis. Anyone can keep trying something over and over again until they succeed. They may even just get lucky once. It gives the game more meaning. Without risk there is no reward. Currently there is no risk in MMOs. Dying is no a risk when you just respawn and go at it again.
Regardless of how much penalty you have. A raid party will continuously do the content over and over again until they succeed. Which brings me to another issue with modern MMOs to artificially prolong progression; raid lockout timers.
Well, that's just a natural progression from respawn timers - though, I agree that a better system could probably be thought up. I would rant about how having your raid mob, on a three to five day respawn, stolen from you makes instances a good thing but honestly our EQ server (and most others) had a system in place to rotate who had what in what week.
On the main topic of the OP, though: efficiency is what caused the downhill slope most people talk about.
People didn't want to have a quarter of the raid hold everyone up because they don't know their way to the raid zone in. People didn't want to have to wait half an hour for a new cleric to get to them, or heaven forbid: give up a camp to clear out and get their new healer. People didn't want to be at the mercy of two classes for quick access to various places on the map. And I certainly don't remember mass protests of raids in WoW saving your progress instead of clearing the same multiple hours of trash every night, when that was an announced feature.
These are things people cry FOR now, but at the time I don't recall anyone I knew liking this stuff - or if they did, they didn't like it enough to be vocal in opposition of it being changed. I don't recall anyone ever saying, "I feel a great sense of community by having to find a Wizard so I don't have to waste an hour of my life on a boat and running through three zones at a snails pace because I couldn't find a Ranger or Druid for SoW!" We say that now, because I guess a lot of people realize it's those little things that build communities up. But developers didn't just miraculously come up with the idea of: "Hey. Let's put in portals that bring people to whatever zone they want!" That's something the community wanted, at the time.
On the other hand, I think some developers should take notice that a fair amount of people find those changes to be abhorrent, and would likely play a game with more old-school features.
I believe it is one of those sayings. I believe the one is you don't know what you are missing until it's gone.
On the other hand it can be called those Rose tinted nostalgia glasses, Brad Mcquaid is trying to bring all of this back in his new game except the community is not willing to fund him. Those mechanics were tolerated at the time because they were the mechanics .
The real challenge is creating new community building mechanics without giving up the progress made over the past decade.
Since players no longer need to deal with that crap, they no longer will support it. Just like Blizzard found out with Cata -- don't dictate to gamers how to play a game, create/fix/modify, but leave the "rough and tough" BS in the office.
There are a lot of things wrong with modern MMOs and it hurts the amount of fun that can be had within the game overall.
First, fun is subjective. But i don't disagree there are still lots of things wrong (from my perspective) with modern MMOs .. and that is why i think they should be more like SP games .. that will fix a lot of the problems about grinding, and raid lock-outs.
May be games like Destiny will help change the genre into a more fun (to me) direction.
There's nothing fun about lockout timers
No .. there is nothing fun about lockout timers. That is why, for me, MMOs should be more like SP games .. and those have no timers of any kind at all.
Originally posted by Fenrir767 You clearly have no idea what an addiction is and why EQ was called Evercrack. Part of the addiction was the time required you could not play 3 hours a week in EQ and be relevant it was 20+
So your idea of addiction is commitment; okay. Yeah, I think I'll finish debating with you.
A commitment of 20 hours for a game is bad itself .. there is no need to add addiction to the mix.
Heck, i won't even play a game that need a commitment of 3 hours on a Fri or Sat night.
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
I believe the entire issue lies with the lack of grind in newer games. You can have no death penalty by simply increasing the grind that's required within the game.
It's not the death penalty that makes gear feel valuable; it's grind. It's not death penalty that makes the game harder; it's AI difficulty. It's not death penalty that makes progression longer; it's grind.
When the server is down for maintenance, I get the feeling you don't waste a second of that time slacking off and immediately start a brisk session of flagellation to keep that feeling of achievement at its peak.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Originally posted by Flyte27 As I mentioned in another post I'm starting to believe more and more that it's the lack of any kind of real death penalty that is making games easy. Most will say death penalty doesn't make the combat harder. In that they are correct. It makes the game harder because you can't progress if you are going to die a lot during combat weather it be solo or filling a role in a group. I'm sure it's why a lot of people left EQ for WoW. I know I did at the time because i was frustrated at the lack of what I could do as a solo player. Looking back it was a good mechanic for showing what players were really good. I was a decent player and eventually figured out how to solo my way up slowly, but the ones that were really great were the ones that would group, go in dungeons to camp, and raid. I was never able to really perform well in those situations on a consistent enough basis to do make progress or complete dungeons that were appropriate for my level. I always went into dungeons when the mobs were grey (no longer gave experience). Some people could never make it past the early levels of the game. I don't think it's a matter of the combat in games today being to easy. I just think it's to easy to progress forward regardless of how ineffective a player you are in solo or group PvE. It really has diminished the challenge of the PvE experience.
Or maybe just maybe it's not the death penalty itself. I believe the entire issue lies with the lack of grind in newer games. You can have no death penalty by simply increasing the grind that's required within the game.
It's not the death penalty that makes gear feel valuable; it's grind. It's not death penalty that makes the game harder; it's AI difficulty. It's not death penalty that makes progression longer; it's grind.
Grind is more a test of patience. I'm sure that some people wouldn't play because of time constraints and lack of desire to spend a certain amount of time on a game.
AI difficulty doesn't really make the game harder if you can quickly retry the battle over and over again until you win with no penalty.
If you have a death penalty in place that hinders progression if you die a lot then your strategy will have to be a good one to succeed and you will need to execute it well.
Lets spin the tables again. Death penalty is also a test of patience that only hurts the player. You gain nothing from dying. Death penalty is simply a punishment to the player that failed; Is failing not enough?
If you had the old MMO system where you lost exp and gear (ex: Everquest) would it not be a test of patience? Imagine playing back in the day when you were leveling through the 'hell' levels and you died. It's becomes a test of patience to push through the deaths that have been inflicted.
However, grind isn't a punishment. It's valuable, it puts value in your gear. Unique items the have a low drop rate actually have a purpose as you level. Rather than replacing it with a common/uncommon item 5 levels later. Grind is progression and perpetual progression will make a game last; not death penalty.
Actually it would be more a test of if you can come up with a good plan and execute it without having to try over and over again. It would also test the players ability to execute well on a consistent basis. Anyone can keep trying something over and over again until they succeed. They may even just get lucky once. It gives the game more meaning. Without risk there is no reward. Currently there is no risk in MMOs. Dying is no a risk when you just respawn and go at it again.
Regardless of how much penalty you have. A raid party will continuously do the content over and over again until they succeed. Which brings me to another issue with modern MMOs to artificially prolong progression; raid lockout timers.
Well, that's just a natural progression from respawn timers - though, I agree that a better system could probably be thought up. I would rant about how having your raid mob, on a three to five day respawn, stolen from you makes instances a good thing but honestly our EQ server (and most others) had a system in place to rotate who had what in what week.
On the main topic of the OP, though: efficiency is what caused the downhill slope most people talk about.
People didn't want to have a quarter of the raid hold everyone up because they don't know their way to the raid zone in. People didn't want to have to wait half an hour for a new cleric to get to them, or heaven forbid: give up a camp to clear out and get their new healer. People didn't want to be at the mercy of two classes for quick access to various places on the map. And I certainly don't remember mass protests of raids in WoW saving your progress instead of clearing the same multiple hours of trash every night, when that was an announced feature.
These are things people cry FOR now, but at the time I don't recall anyone I knew liking this stuff - or if they did, they didn't like it enough to be vocal in opposition of it being changed. I don't recall anyone ever saying, "I feel a great sense of community by having to find a Wizard so I don't have to waste an hour of my life on a boat and running through three zones at a snails pace because I couldn't find a Ranger or Druid for SoW!" We say that now, because I guess a lot of people realize it's those little things that build communities up. But developers didn't just miraculously come up with the idea of: "Hey. Let's put in portals that bring people to whatever zone they want!" That's something the community wanted, at the time.
On the other hand, I think some developers should take notice that a fair amount of people find those changes to be abhorrent, and would likely play a game with more old-school features.
I believe it is one of those sayings. I believe the one is you don't know what you are missing until it's gone.
On the other hand it can be called those Rose tinted nostalgia glasses, Brad Mcquaid is trying to bring all of this back in his new game except the community is not willing to fund him. Those mechanics were tolerated at the time because they were the mechanics .
The real challenge is creating new community building mechanics without giving up the progress made over the past decade.
Since players no longer need to deal with that crap, they no longer will support it. Just like Blizzard found out with Cata -- don't dictate to gamers how to play a game, create/fix/modify, but leave the "rough and tough" BS in the office.
The problem with people like you - is that they make assumptions based on minimal knowledge - if it suits their agenda. Even after Blizzard reversed its course and made the dungeons EZ mode - they still lost players. LFR didn't help them either.
Its not clear without better data then we have what triggers the sub loss. Sometimes its just because its a terrible value. Blizzard charges the same price as 5 games per year - and delivers less content then a single game.
Now with regards to this thread - I tend to agree with you. What people need to understand is that design choices are double sided coin. If they remove convience and add in difficulty and make it all "old school' you piss off ALOT of players. Those players will leave - but the reverse is true. Make it too easy with epics that just are found lying on the ground and you lose people as well.
Blizzard used to find the perfect balance - they had enough content both easy and then difficult to please everyone and they had the right balance between quality of life and old school grinding. But those days are over. The new guys at Blizzard aren't the same. You don't recognize this - but the rest of us do. The company is not the same company it was 6 or 7 years ago when it was making great games.
Its been garbage out of that company with Cataclysm, MOP and Diablo III being poor even for a second rate studio like EA.
Originally posted by Flyte27 As I mentioned in another post I'm starting to believe more and more that it's the lack of any kind of real death penalty that is making games easy. Most will say death penalty doesn't make the combat harder. In that they are correct. It makes the game harder because you can't progress if you are going to die a lot during combat weather it be solo or filling a role in a group. I'm sure it's why a lot of people left EQ for WoW. I know I did at the time because i was frustrated at the lack of what I could do as a solo player. Looking back it was a good mechanic for showing what players were really good. I was a decent player and eventually figured out how to solo my way up slowly, but the ones that were really great were the ones that would group, go in dungeons to camp, and raid. I was never able to really perform well in those situations on a consistent enough basis to do make progress or complete dungeons that were appropriate for my level. I always went into dungeons when the mobs were grey (no longer gave experience). Some people could never make it past the early levels of the game. I don't think it's a matter of the combat in games today being to easy. I just think it's to easy to progress forward regardless of how ineffective a player you are in solo or group PvE. It really has diminished the challenge of the PvE experience.
Or maybe just maybe it's not the death penalty itself. I believe the entire issue lies with the lack of grind in newer games. You can have no death penalty by simply increasing the grind that's required within the game.
It's not the death penalty that makes gear feel valuable; it's grind. It's not death penalty that makes the game harder; it's AI difficulty. It's not death penalty that makes progression longer; it's grind.
Grind is more a test of patience. I'm sure that some people wouldn't play because of time constraints and lack of desire to spend a certain amount of time on a game.
AI difficulty doesn't really make the game harder if you can quickly retry the battle over and over again until you win with no penalty.
If you have a death penalty in place that hinders progression if you die a lot then your strategy will have to be a good one to succeed and you will need to execute it well.
Lets spin the tables again. Death penalty is also a test of patience that only hurts the player. You gain nothing from dying. Death penalty is simply a punishment to the player that failed; Is failing not enough?
If you had the old MMO system where you lost exp and gear (ex: Everquest) would it not be a test of patience? Imagine playing back in the day when you were leveling through the 'hell' levels and you died. It's becomes a test of patience to push through the deaths that have been inflicted.
However, grind isn't a punishment. It's valuable, it puts value in your gear. Unique items the have a low drop rate actually have a purpose as you level. Rather than replacing it with a common/uncommon item 5 levels later. Grind is progression and perpetual progression will make a game last; not death penalty.
Actually it would be more a test of if you can come up with a good plan and execute it without having to try over and over again. It would also test the players ability to execute well on a consistent basis. Anyone can keep trying something over and over again until they succeed. They may even just get lucky once. It gives the game more meaning. Without risk there is no reward. Currently there is no risk in MMOs. Dying is no a risk when you just respawn and go at it again.
Regardless of how much penalty you have. A raid party will continuously do the content over and over again until they succeed. Which brings me to another issue with modern MMOs to artificially prolong progression; raid lockout timers.
Well, that's just a natural progression from respawn timers - though, I agree that a better system could probably be thought up. I would rant about how having your raid mob, on a three to five day respawn, stolen from you makes instances a good thing but honestly our EQ server (and most others) had a system in place to rotate who had what in what week.
On the main topic of the OP, though: efficiency is what caused the downhill slope most people talk about.
People didn't want to have a quarter of the raid hold everyone up because they don't know their way to the raid zone in. People didn't want to have to wait half an hour for a new cleric to get to them, or heaven forbid: give up a camp to clear out and get their new healer. People didn't want to be at the mercy of two classes for quick access to various places on the map. And I certainly don't remember mass protests of raids in WoW saving your progress instead of clearing the same multiple hours of trash every night, when that was an announced feature.
These are things people cry FOR now, but at the time I don't recall anyone I knew liking this stuff - or if they did, they didn't like it enough to be vocal in opposition of it being changed. I don't recall anyone ever saying, "I feel a great sense of community by having to find a Wizard so I don't have to waste an hour of my life on a boat and running through three zones at a snails pace because I couldn't find a Ranger or Druid for SoW!" We say that now, because I guess a lot of people realize it's those little things that build communities up. But developers didn't just miraculously come up with the idea of: "Hey. Let's put in portals that bring people to whatever zone they want!" That's something the community wanted, at the time.
On the other hand, I think some developers should take notice that a fair amount of people find those changes to be abhorrent, and would likely play a game with more old-school features.
I believe it is one of those sayings. I believe the one is you don't know what you are missing until it's gone.
On the other hand it can be called those Rose tinted nostalgia glasses, Brad Mcquaid is trying to bring all of this back in his new game except the community is not willing to fund him. Those mechanics were tolerated at the time because they were the mechanics .
The real challenge is creating new community building mechanics without giving up the progress made over the past decade.
Since players no longer need to deal with that crap, they no longer will support it. Just like Blizzard found out with Cata -- don't dictate to gamers how to play a game, create/fix/modify, but leave the "rough and tough" BS in the office.
The problem with people like you - is that they make assumptions based on minimal knowledge - if it suits their agenda. Even after Blizzard reversed its course and made the dungeons EZ mode - they still lost players. LFR didn't help them either.
My knowledge comes from the trenches, by the players themselves. It's what they say in instances; what they talk about in trade; what they're saying while waiting on queues. Unscripted and unvarnished.
And I can guarantee that your knowledge isn't any better.
Originally posted by Fenrir767 You clearly have no idea what an addiction is and why EQ was called Evercrack. Part of the addiction was the time required you could not play 3 hours a week in EQ and be relevant it was 20+
I know this was HUGE story back at the turn of the century, but seriously, how many players were really addicted to the extent that that handful got the press for? Give me a percentage, please.
EQ addiction was NOT as rampant as the far right (anti-video game folks) wanted the public to believe. And here you are backing this group up? Addictive personalities will find what they need to be addicted to. It was NOT EQ's fault these people came to play and lost their control. Is it gambling's fault that people get addicted to it? Is it knitting's fault that people get addicted to it? How about people addicted to skinner boxes? Drugs, on the other hand is a whole different story. There, you're talking about a chemical addiction.
Another thing about addiction. I am not one to blame tools that enable addiction, except for drugs. It is the people's responsibility to get a handle on their addictions. Almost anything in the world today can be addictive to an addictive personality. Must we, as a society, NOT do anything that "could be" addictive?
LOTS of players played 3 hours a week, or LESS. They most certainly were not "the best on the server" by any means, but back then, that was not a HUGE goal for many players, like it is today. EverQuest had so many varied activities that sitting down for an hour here to fish, a couple of hours there to sit in a language group, maybe a half-hour whenever to get your character to the place you wanted to start your longer session from. Some players, believe it or not, would just log in to say "Hi!" to their online friends. Amazing, that, isn't it? Of course, back then with dial-up service that could take a good 15 minutes
There was a lot of varying activities to do in short spurts in EQ. The players that complained about time sinks are the ones that HAD to go get every Boss Mob and get the special drops. This was a small percentage of EverQuest players.
Now, as far as soloing and downtime, there only needs to be more available activities. Need to sit a bit and heal? Get out your sewing kit and do some tailoring with that load of animal pelts you're carrying around. Bring along your fishing pole and bait. Read up on lore that you may have come across in your adventures.
Even when EQ had spellbooks that took up 100% the players viewing area, there was a feature that was always available: The Chat Box.
Today's MMOs offer at best, 3-4 differing activities, hardly any of them can be done anywhere, anytime. Crafting is out, as most MMOs require a player to be at a specific station in a populated spot, so no portable crafting is possible. Fishing is most of the time not even included. When it is, it is hit and miss, as far as the "fun of it" goes.
But the number 1 activity in ALL MMOs today is Killing. That gets boring for me, fast. And MMORPGs can be so much more than "just killing things." Lots of other genres of games offer that and usually do a much better job of it.
Players who never played EverQuest believe the negative hype. Those that DID play, know better, or just did not enjoy the experience, which is fine. MMORPGs are NOT for everyone, nor should they be. It is OK to not like a whole genres of video games. I certainly do.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I enjoyed the types of MMOs that took longer to accomplish something. I only played on weekends and even after playing for years I didn't get to end game. But it was still fun.
Originally posted by Fenrir767 You clearly have no idea what an addiction is and why EQ was called Evercrack. Part of the addiction was the time required you could not play 3 hours a week in EQ and be relevant it was 20+
I know this was HUGE story back at the turn of the century, but seriously, how many players were really addicted to the extent that that handful got the press for? Give me a percentage, please.
EQ addiction was NOT as rampant as the far right (anti-video game folks) wanted the public to believe. And here you are backing this group up? Addictive personalities will find what they need to be addicted to. It was NOT EQ's fault these people came to play and lost their control. Is it gambling's fault that people get addicted to it? Is it knitting's fault that people get addicted to it? How about people addicted to skinner boxes? Drugs, on the other hand is a whole different story. There, you're talking about a chemical addiction.
Another thing about addiction. I am not one to blame tools that enable addiction, except for drugs. It is the people's responsibility to get a handle on their addictions. Almost anything in the world today can be addictive to an addictive personality. Must we, as a society, NOT do anything that "could be" addictive?
LOTS of players played 3 hours a week, or LESS. They most certainly were not "the best on the server" by any means, but back then, that was not a HUGE goal for many players, like it is today. EverQuest had so many varied activities that sitting down for an hour here to fish, a couple of hours there to sit in a language group, maybe a half-hour whenever to get your character to the place you wanted to start your longer session from. Some players, believe it or not, would just log in to say "Hi!" to their online friends. Amazing, that, isn't it? Of course, back then with dial-up service that could take a good 15 minutes
There was a lot of varying activities to do in short spurts in EQ. The players that complained about time sinks are the ones that HAD to go get every Boss Mob and get the special drops. This was a small percentage of EverQuest players.
Now, as far as soloing and downtime, there only needs to be more available activities. Need to sit a bit and heal? Get out your sewing kit and do some tailoring with that load of animal pelts you're carrying around. Bring along your fishing pole and bait. Read up on lore that you may have come across in your adventures.
Even when EQ had spellbooks that took up 100% the players viewing area, there was a feature that was always available: The Chat Box.
Today's MMOs offer at best, 3-4 differing activities, hardly any of them can be done anywhere, anytime. Crafting is out, as most MMOs require a player to be at a specific station in a populated spot, so no portable crafting is possible. Fishing is most of the time not even included. When it is, it is hit and miss, as far as the "fun of it" goes.
But the number 1 activity in ALL MMOs today is Killing. That gets boring for me, fast. And MMORPGs can be so much more than "just killing things." Lots of other genres of games offer that and usually do a much better job of it.
Players who never played EverQuest believe the negative hype. Those that DID play, know better, or just did not enjoy the experience, which is fine. MMORPGs are NOT for everyone, nor should they be. It is OK to not like a whole genres of video games. I certainly do.
So many words yet so misguided.
EQ was crazy addictive. Here is why: the human mind treats virtual rewards like real ones. This is a documented scientific fact. The gear 'upgrades' that provide real tangible power increases are so lusted after players just like real physical items are by regular people.
EQ was both quite hard and had INCREDIBLY powerful gear. A scepter of destruction could be sold for ALOT of money - and this is a good illustration of how addictive an MMO can be. The fact that people will pay significant dollars for powerful virtual items is proof of their draw.
Drugs work in a very similar way. There is a release of chemicals in the brain when you take drugs. These chemicals make you feel good - and when they are gone you seek to release those chemicals again. You get a very similar effect in the virtual world - hence the growth of RPG style mechanics in games.
EQ was one of the few American ones that took rutheless abusive steps to punish the few addicted players - making 'completion' of the game near impossible while making the power delta between good and bad gear - immense. Thankfully modern games do this less.
And they have to - because the stigma that EQ developed was so strong modern individuals are actually SCARED to play MMOs. They do not want to 'end up' like so and so. This is similar to how people feel about drugs. Don't get me wrong drugs are far stronger and more dangerous then EQ - but the principle they work on is identical.
Originally posted by Fenrir767 You clearly have no idea what an addiction is and why EQ was called Evercrack. Part of the addiction was the time required you could not play 3 hours a week in EQ and be relevant it was 20+
I know this was HUGE story back at the turn of the century, but seriously, how many players were really addicted to the extent that that handful got the press for? Give me a percentage, please.
EQ addiction was NOT as rampant as the far right (anti-video game folks) wanted the public to believe. And here you are backing this group up? Addictive personalities will find what they need to be addicted to. It was NOT EQ's fault these people came to play and lost their control. Is it gambling's fault that people get addicted to it? Is it knitting's fault that people get addicted to it? How about people addicted to skinner boxes? Drugs, on the other hand is a whole different story. There, you're talking about a chemical addiction.
Another thing about addiction. I am not one to blame tools that enable addiction, except for drugs. It is the people's responsibility to get a handle on their addictions. Almost anything in the world today can be addictive to an addictive personality. Must we, as a society, NOT do anything that "could be" addictive?
LOTS of players played 3 hours a week, or LESS. They most certainly were not "the best on the server" by any means, but back then, that was not a HUGE goal for many players, like it is today. EverQuest had so many varied activities that sitting down for an hour here to fish, a couple of hours there to sit in a language group, maybe a half-hour whenever to get your character to the place you wanted to start your longer session from. Some players, believe it or not, would just log in to say "Hi!" to their online friends. Amazing, that, isn't it? Of course, back then with dial-up service that could take a good 15 minutes
There was a lot of varying activities to do in short spurts in EQ. The players that complained about time sinks are the ones that HAD to go get every Boss Mob and get the special drops. This was a small percentage of EverQuest players.
Now, as far as soloing and downtime, there only needs to be more available activities. Need to sit a bit and heal? Get out your sewing kit and do some tailoring with that load of animal pelts you're carrying around. Bring along your fishing pole and bait. Read up on lore that you may have come across in your adventures.
Even when EQ had spellbooks that took up 100% the players viewing area, there was a feature that was always available: The Chat Box.
Today's MMOs offer at best, 3-4 differing activities, hardly any of them can be done anywhere, anytime. Crafting is out, as most MMOs require a player to be at a specific station in a populated spot, so no portable crafting is possible. Fishing is most of the time not even included. When it is, it is hit and miss, as far as the "fun of it" goes.
But the number 1 activity in ALL MMOs today is Killing. That gets boring for me, fast. And MMORPGs can be so much more than "just killing things." Lots of other genres of games offer that and usually do a much better job of it.
Players who never played EverQuest believe the negative hype. Those that DID play, know better, or just did not enjoy the experience, which is fine. MMORPGs are NOT for everyone, nor should they be. It is OK to not like a whole genres of video games. I certainly do.
So many words yet so misguided.
EQ was crazy addictive. Here is why: the human mind treats virtual rewards like real ones. This is a documented scientific fact. The gear 'upgrades' that provide real tangible power increases are so lusted after players just like real physical items are by regular people.
EQ was both quite hard and had INCREDIBLY powerful gear. A scepter of destruction could be sold for ALOT of money - and this is a good illustration of how addictive an MMO can be. The fact that people will pay significant dollars for powerful virtual items is proof of their draw.
Drugs work in a very similar way. There is a release of chemicals in the brain when you take drugs. These chemicals make you feel good - and when they are gone you seek to release those chemicals again. You get a very similar effect in the virtual world - hence the growth of RPG style mechanics in games.
EQ was one of the few American ones that took rutheless abusive steps to punish the few addicted players - making 'completion' of the game near impossible while making the power delta between good and bad gear - immense. Thankfully modern games do this less.
And they have to - because the stigma that EQ developed was so strong modern individuals are actually SCARED to play MMOs. They do not want to 'end up' like so and so. This is similar to how people feel about drugs. Don't get me wrong drugs are far stronger and more dangerous then EQ - but the principle they work on is identical.
My argument is that efficiency kills MMOs and makes them lifeless worlds.
On these forums people talk about the different things they find wrong with mmos. The dungeons, quest markers, instant teleportation, group finder, etc. are all things people debate. Some people like these systems but obviously a lot of people don't. I don't have time to read the pages and pages of posts about these topics but they all basically come down to efficiency. Do you want to run for 15 minutes to your next location or click a button and be there? Spend 30 minutes forming a good group or have one made at the click of a button that will work with anyone in it? Ad infinitum
Once you make these systems standard you take out people having to put forth effort to achieve anything in the game. Everyone's on autopilot scrambling from point a to point b as fast as they can. If no one is reaching out for specific people to fill in roles in their party, or asking how do I do this quest, or taking longer journeys with other people next to them for protection and talking to them, or relying on other classes for an ability only they have then there is no community. The only thing that gets accomplished is exactly what the quest asked for. Nothing on top of that. If there was less of a drive for efficiency and more of a drive for a organic world then more things would happen besides simply what the quest asks. People would learn from each other.
I'd type more but I'm bored....
I think you are spot on... good read.... The Online World dies if there is no community.. why even play I say? I might aswell play a single player game or a MOBA or an online card game(magic the gathering is really fun to be honest).
MMOS lose their soul when efficiency becomes top priority...
Originally posted by GuyClinch EQ was crazy addictive. Here is why: the human mind treats virtual rewards like real ones. This is a documented scientific fact. The gear 'upgrades' that provide real tangible power increases are so lusted after players just like real physical items are by regular people.EQ was both quite hard and had INCREDIBLY powerful gear. A scepter of destruction could be sold for ALOT of money - and this is a good illustration of how addictive an MMO can be. The fact that people will pay significant dollars for powerful virtual items is proof of their draw.Drugs work in a very similar way. There is a release of chemicals in the brain when you take drugs. These chemicals make you feel good - and when they are gone you seek to release those chemicals again. You get a very similar effect in the virtual world - hence the growth of RPG style mechanics in games.EQ was one of the few American ones that took rutheless abusive steps to punish the few addicted players - making 'completion' of the game near impossible while making the power delta between good and bad gear - immense. Thankfully modern games do this less.And they have to - because the stigma that EQ developed was so strong modern individuals are actually SCARED to play MMOs. They do not want to 'end up' like so and so. This is similar to how people feel about drugs. Don't get me wrong drugs are far stronger and more dangerous then EQ - but the principle they work on is identical.
Can you cite 1% of the population at peak (500K users) 5000 cases? Please let me know if you can.
Maybe we can lower that percentage to .1% so only 500 cases need be cited. I only had a handful of players I knew in the game and a few real life friends that got me into the game. Of those, say 15 people, none showed signs of addiction. That is a VERY small sampling, I know, but other than a handful (5-10) well publicized instances, I know NOT this widespread addiction that took place. What percentage of the total playerbase needs to be "addicted" before it is deemed "evil" and therefore outlawed?
Remember now, MANY players called it EverCrack in jest, poking fun at the few well publicized stories. *I* did this.
WoW's gear progression is 10x Worse than EQ's. They are masters at the carrot on the stick type of gameplay. Newer MMOs follow this formula to the tee.
Even if you do prove me wrong, which is very possible, does that mean MMORPGs should be outlawed, like gambling is in many places? Or drugs are outlawed, almost everywhere?
What is your point? Some players became addicted so the game, or maybe the whole genre is terrible?
My question is: Just how rampant was this supposed addiction you speak of?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Remember now, MANY players called it EverCrack in jest, poking fun at the few well publicized stories. *I* did this.
WoW's gear progression is 10x Worse than EQ's. They are masters at the carrot on the stick type of gameplay. Newer MMOs follow this formula to the tee.
Want some EQII evidence?
After the nth shard run in the SO expansion I was totally burnt out, and went to WoW in 2009, instead.
It's 2014 now, with 3 accounts, and although bored almost 5 years later, not burnt out.
It's because WoW offers more to do than JUST raiding or PvP.
Another family member runs her alts through all the dailies and the farm and happy with it. My sis I told her about WoD and the free 90 and the need to get 35 Embersilk bags made, and at least 10 Royal Satchels for 5 account 90s, so we can start those 90s anew on another realm...to start it all over again (with 3 more realms to do ALL over again).
Bored? Me? Yes. Burned out? No. Addicted? No, I take quarterly breaks.
Blizzard should've offered paid leveling long before WoD. -_-
Originally posted by AlBQuirky Remember now, MANY players called it EverCrack in jest, poking fun at the few well publicized stories. *I* did this.WoW's gear progression is 10x Worse than EQ's. They are masters at the carrot on the stick type of gameplay. Newer MMOs follow this formula to the tee.
Want some EQII evidence?After the nth shard run in the SO expansion I was totally burnt out, and went to WoW in 2009, instead.It's 2014 now, with 3 accounts, and although bored almost 5 years later, not burnt out.It's because WoW offers more to do than JUST raiding or PvP.Another family member runs her alts through all the dailies and the farm and happy with it. My sis I told her about WoD and the free 90 and the need to get 35 Embersilk bags made, and at least 10 Royal Satchels for 5 account 90s, so we can start those 90s anew on another realm...to start it all over again (with 3 more realms to do ALL over again).Bored? Me? Yes. Burned out? No. Addicted? No, I take quarterly breaks.Blizzard should've offered paid leveling long before WoD. -_-
I lasted about 3 years in EQ1. After getting all my characters as far as I could soloing (about level 20), I was burned out with it. I could do very little without a group. Even collecting ingredients for crafting required groups to get some of them, like animal parts. And crafting was expensive. Players were always looking for ways to make money so they could craft, or at least *I* was
EQ was NOT all about raiding. For some, sure that is why they played. A lot of players did guild activities, crafting, fishing, quests, epic quests, and/or learned languages of other races and ancient tongues. Some hung out in the East Commons Tunnel selling their wares. Wizards and Druids would offer their porting services to those could that pay. Clerics, Shaman, and Druids offered their buffs to others in cities or other gathering places. Help was asked for in chat, and many times received by other players just sitting around waiting for something to do. Necromancers were always on call for corpse retrieval. Bards were busy in newbie areas helping players locate their lost corpses. Clerics were in demand to rez corpses because they had the spell that also gave a portion of the character's lost XP from dieing.
There were many activities in EQ1 other than raiding, though raiding was one of them.
Blizzard did have the resurrection scrolls awhile back. I had a friend send me one and I used it to get my Rogue to level 80. That move sucked, though, and I never played him again. I did not even stay in game for 1 month.
You are obviously an "end game" player, which I have no qualms with. I am a "journey" player, and see money for levels as defeating the whole purpose of the game.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by AlBQuirky Remember now, MANY players called it EverCrack in jest, poking fun at the few well publicized stories. *I* did this.
WoW's gear progression is 10x Worse than EQ's. They are masters at the carrot on the stick type of gameplay. Newer MMOs follow this formula to the tee.
Want some EQII evidence?
After the nth shard run in the SO expansion I was totally burnt out, and went to WoW in 2009, instead.
It's 2014 now, with 3 accounts, and although bored almost 5 years later, not burnt out.
It's because WoW offers more to do than JUST raiding or PvP.
Another family member runs her alts through all the dailies and the farm and happy with it. My sis I told her about WoD and the free 90 and the need to get 35 Embersilk bags made, and at least 10 Royal Satchels for 5 account 90s, so we can start those 90s anew on another realm...to start it all over again (with 3 more realms to do ALL over again).
Bored? Me? Yes. Burned out? No. Addicted? No, I take quarterly breaks.
Blizzard should've offered paid leveling long before WoD. -_-
I lasted about 3 years in EQ1. After getting all my characters as far as I could soloing (about level 20), I was burned out with it. I could do very little without a group. Even collecting ingredients for crafting required groups to get some of them, like animal parts. And crafting was expensive. Players were always looking for ways to make money so they could craft, or at least *I* was
EQ was NOT all about raiding. For some, sure that is why they played. A lot of players did guild activities, crafting, fishing, quests, epic quests, and/or learned languages of other races and ancient tongues. Some hung out in the East Commons Tunnel selling their wares. Wizards and Druids would offer their porting services to those could that pay. Clerics, Shaman, and Druids offered their buffs to others in cities or other gathering places. Help was asked for in chat, and many times received by other players just sitting around waiting for something to do. Necromancers were always on call for corpse retrieval. Bards were busy in newbie areas helping players locate their lost corpses. Clerics were in demand to rez corpses because they had the spell that also gave a portion of the character's lost XP from dieing.
There were many activities in EQ1 other than raiding, though raiding was one of them.
Blizzard did have the resurrection scrolls awhile back. I had a friend send me one and I used it to get my Rogue to level 80. That move sucked, though, and I never played him again. I did not even stay in game for 1 month.
You are obviously an "end game" player, which I have no qualms with. I am a "journey" player, and see money for levels as defeating the whole purpose of the game.
Very true AlBQuirky..
I seldom ever got bored finding things to do in EQ.. Sometimes a farmed, sometimes I fished, sometimes I gathered mats, and sometimes I buffed newbies for favors like collecting bat wings.. LOL Vanilla WoW wasn't as good, but even that game nerfed "non-combat" activities to do.. I remember farming mats for special arrows / bullets but even that was nerfed.. Players couldn't be bothered with managing their ammunition.. At least I still had my FISH banquets.. LOL When I left WoW at the end of the LK era.. The only thing to do was run heroics (but that was unneeded after a number of runs) Run dailies? Zzzzz and with the Raid lockouts, that was limited too and often a FAILURE for the week.. And trust me, after a few years, there is no more room to run Alts..
Blizzard did have the resurrection scrolls awhile back. I had a friend send me one and I used it to get my Rogue to level 80. That move sucked, though, and I never played him again. I did not even stay in game for 1 month.
You are obviously an "end game" player, which I have no qualms with. I am a "journey" player, and see money for levels as defeating the whole purpose of the game.
You're not just going to jump from one established game to another established game without a lot of support, as the games are totally different. When I mentored in EQII if an EQ player came in solo, he wouldn't even get past Blackburrow, as he's cussing and screaming it's not like EQ.
If players are set in their ways, they can't adapt, or refuse to adapt. WoW is one of those games that the game play isn't difficult to grasp, it's the culture and game style that takes time to get used, too. Tanks don't direct in WoW, it's everyone-for-themselves. That's chaotic. Secondly, if folks don't RTFM they'll never fit in. It's not about exploring or learning things yourself, it's learning the things properly or you'll be kicked down the stairs over and over and over, and just quit out of frustration. WoW isn't a game to just explore on your own, it's designed to run around with friends and/or family to help. And if they don't RTFM (Wowhead), they won't be going nowhere.
BUT, if you do those things -- read; learn the culture; travel with people you know, then you can see why so many play WoW...and why it's so difficult to get away from, as family and friends will get you to come back all the time.
WoW isn't addicting for it's content, people play WoW because who they play WITH.
I'm actually a very casual player. I'd do more when I feel like it (raid if it's worth it; PvP for the same); or just spend weeks shooting pretty pictures and videos. My favorite hobby is doing things that they say Holy paladins can't do -- like in EQII when they said paladins couldn't do, just to prove folks wrong. What appeals to me about WoW is the Holy paladin sub-class, as a full-time healing paladin is unique. Kevyne's not a cleric nor druid style healer, he's a paladin healer. A very special snowflake, and my curiosity over it all keeps me interested in WoW.
Comments
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
I am done debating with you aswell the fact that you think that 20+ hours minimum to be relevant is commitment pretty much sums up everything that is wrong with your argument. In many cases with EQ it was sometime 40, 60, 80 or more. That fact that game designed neccessitated that much time is a problem and if you don't think newer games have taken that into account wel......
Enjoy committing yourself to the virtual world while the real world passes you by
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
nope. we can't blame WoW, every time, anymore. newer games have streamlined the game worlds even more. and their developers did so in defiance of WoW.
Since players no longer need to deal with that crap, they no longer will support it. Just like Blizzard found out with Cata -- don't dictate to gamers how to play a game, create/fix/modify, but leave the "rough and tough" BS in the office.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
No .. there is nothing fun about lockout timers. That is why, for me, MMOs should be more like SP games .. and those have no timers of any kind at all.
A commitment of 20 hours for a game is bad itself .. there is no need to add addiction to the mix.
Heck, i won't even play a game that need a commitment of 3 hours on a Fri or Sat night.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
When the server is down for maintenance, I get the feeling you don't waste a second of that time slacking off and immediately start a brisk session of flagellation to keep that feeling of achievement at its peak.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
The problem with people like you - is that they make assumptions based on minimal knowledge - if it suits their agenda. Even after Blizzard reversed its course and made the dungeons EZ mode - they still lost players. LFR didn't help them either.
Its not clear without better data then we have what triggers the sub loss. Sometimes its just because its a terrible value. Blizzard charges the same price as 5 games per year - and delivers less content then a single game.
Now with regards to this thread - I tend to agree with you. What people need to understand is that design choices are double sided coin. If they remove convience and add in difficulty and make it all "old school' you piss off ALOT of players. Those players will leave - but the reverse is true. Make it too easy with epics that just are found lying on the ground and you lose people as well.
Blizzard used to find the perfect balance - they had enough content both easy and then difficult to please everyone and they had the right balance between quality of life and old school grinding. But those days are over. The new guys at Blizzard aren't the same. You don't recognize this - but the rest of us do. The company is not the same company it was 6 or 7 years ago when it was making great games.
Its been garbage out of that company with Cataclysm, MOP and Diablo III being poor even for a second rate studio like EA.
My knowledge comes from the trenches, by the players themselves. It's what they say in instances; what they talk about in trade; what they're saying while waiting on queues. Unscripted and unvarnished.
And I can guarantee that your knowledge isn't any better.
After 6 months of ZA and ZG -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGyRqPssj3U-- and then Dragon Soul -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfinj6gUif4 -- yeah no explanation is necessary for the subs decline. o.O
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
EQ addiction was NOT as rampant as the far right (anti-video game folks) wanted the public to believe. And here you are backing this group up? Addictive personalities will find what they need to be addicted to. It was NOT EQ's fault these people came to play and lost their control. Is it gambling's fault that people get addicted to it? Is it knitting's fault that people get addicted to it? How about people addicted to skinner boxes? Drugs, on the other hand is a whole different story. There, you're talking about a chemical addiction.
Another thing about addiction. I am not one to blame tools that enable addiction, except for drugs. It is the people's responsibility to get a handle on their addictions. Almost anything in the world today can be addictive to an addictive personality. Must we, as a society, NOT do anything that "could be" addictive?
LOTS of players played 3 hours a week, or LESS. They most certainly were not "the best on the server" by any means, but back then, that was not a HUGE goal for many players, like it is today. EverQuest had so many varied activities that sitting down for an hour here to fish, a couple of hours there to sit in a language group, maybe a half-hour whenever to get your character to the place you wanted to start your longer session from. Some players, believe it or not, would just log in to say "Hi!" to their online friends. Amazing, that, isn't it? Of course, back then with dial-up service that could take a good 15 minutes
There was a lot of varying activities to do in short spurts in EQ. The players that complained about time sinks are the ones that HAD to go get every Boss Mob and get the special drops. This was a small percentage of EverQuest players.
Now, as far as soloing and downtime, there only needs to be more available activities. Need to sit a bit and heal? Get out your sewing kit and do some tailoring with that load of animal pelts you're carrying around. Bring along your fishing pole and bait. Read up on lore that you may have come across in your adventures.
Even when EQ had spellbooks that took up 100% the players viewing area, there was a feature that was always available: The Chat Box.
Today's MMOs offer at best, 3-4 differing activities, hardly any of them can be done anywhere, anytime. Crafting is out, as most MMOs require a player to be at a specific station in a populated spot, so no portable crafting is possible. Fishing is most of the time not even included. When it is, it is hit and miss, as far as the "fun of it" goes.
But the number 1 activity in ALL MMOs today is Killing. That gets boring for me, fast. And MMORPGs can be so much more than "just killing things." Lots of other genres of games offer that and usually do a much better job of it.
Players who never played EverQuest believe the negative hype. Those that DID play, know better, or just did not enjoy the experience, which is fine. MMORPGs are NOT for everyone, nor should they be. It is OK to not like a whole genres of video games. I certainly do.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
So many words yet so misguided.
EQ was crazy addictive. Here is why: the human mind treats virtual rewards like real ones. This is a documented scientific fact. The gear 'upgrades' that provide real tangible power increases are so lusted after players just like real physical items are by regular people.
EQ was both quite hard and had INCREDIBLY powerful gear. A scepter of destruction could be sold for ALOT of money - and this is a good illustration of how addictive an MMO can be. The fact that people will pay significant dollars for powerful virtual items is proof of their draw.
Drugs work in a very similar way. There is a release of chemicals in the brain when you take drugs. These chemicals make you feel good - and when they are gone you seek to release those chemicals again. You get a very similar effect in the virtual world - hence the growth of RPG style mechanics in games.
EQ was one of the few American ones that took rutheless abusive steps to punish the few addicted players - making 'completion' of the game near impossible while making the power delta between good and bad gear - immense. Thankfully modern games do this less.
And they have to - because the stigma that EQ developed was so strong modern individuals are actually SCARED to play MMOs. They do not want to 'end up' like so and so. This is similar to how people feel about drugs. Don't get me wrong drugs are far stronger and more dangerous then EQ - but the principle they work on is identical.
This could be applied to casinos also.
I think you are spot on... good read.... The Online World dies if there is no community.. why even play I say? I might aswell play a single player game or a MOBA or an online card game(magic the gathering is really fun to be honest).
MMOS lose their soul when efficiency becomes top priority...
Maybe we can lower that percentage to .1% so only 500 cases need be cited. I only had a handful of players I knew in the game and a few real life friends that got me into the game. Of those, say 15 people, none showed signs of addiction. That is a VERY small sampling, I know, but other than a handful (5-10) well publicized instances, I know NOT this widespread addiction that took place. What percentage of the total playerbase needs to be "addicted" before it is deemed "evil" and therefore outlawed?
Remember now, MANY players called it EverCrack in jest, poking fun at the few well publicized stories. *I* did this.
WoW's gear progression is 10x Worse than EQ's. They are masters at the carrot on the stick type of gameplay. Newer MMOs follow this formula to the tee.
Even if you do prove me wrong, which is very possible, does that mean MMORPGs should be outlawed, like gambling is in many places? Or drugs are outlawed, almost everywhere?
What is your point? Some players became addicted so the game, or maybe the whole genre is terrible?
My question is: Just how rampant was this supposed addiction you speak of?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Want some EQII evidence?
After the nth shard run in the SO expansion I was totally burnt out, and went to WoW in 2009, instead.
It's 2014 now, with 3 accounts, and although bored almost 5 years later, not burnt out.
It's because WoW offers more to do than JUST raiding or PvP.
Another family member runs her alts through all the dailies and the farm and happy with it. My sis I told her about WoD and the free 90 and the need to get 35 Embersilk bags made, and at least 10 Royal Satchels for 5 account 90s, so we can start those 90s anew on another realm...to start it all over again (with 3 more realms to do ALL over again).
Bored? Me? Yes. Burned out? No. Addicted? No, I take quarterly breaks.
Blizzard should've offered paid leveling long before WoD. -_-
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
EQ was NOT all about raiding. For some, sure that is why they played. A lot of players did guild activities, crafting, fishing, quests, epic quests, and/or learned languages of other races and ancient tongues. Some hung out in the East Commons Tunnel selling their wares. Wizards and Druids would offer their porting services to those could that pay. Clerics, Shaman, and Druids offered their buffs to others in cities or other gathering places. Help was asked for in chat, and many times received by other players just sitting around waiting for something to do. Necromancers were always on call for corpse retrieval. Bards were busy in newbie areas helping players locate their lost corpses. Clerics were in demand to rez corpses because they had the spell that also gave a portion of the character's lost XP from dieing.
There were many activities in EQ1 other than raiding, though raiding was one of them.
Blizzard did have the resurrection scrolls awhile back. I had a friend send me one and I used it to get my Rogue to level 80. That move sucked, though, and I never played him again. I did not even stay in game for 1 month.
You are obviously an "end game" player, which I have no qualms with. I am a "journey" player, and see money for levels as defeating the whole purpose of the game.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Very true AlBQuirky..
I seldom ever got bored finding things to do in EQ.. Sometimes a farmed, sometimes I fished, sometimes I gathered mats, and sometimes I buffed newbies for favors like collecting bat wings.. LOL Vanilla WoW wasn't as good, but even that game nerfed "non-combat" activities to do.. I remember farming mats for special arrows / bullets but even that was nerfed.. Players couldn't be bothered with managing their ammunition.. At least I still had my FISH banquets.. LOL When I left WoW at the end of the LK era.. The only thing to do was run heroics (but that was unneeded after a number of runs) Run dailies? Zzzzz and with the Raid lockouts, that was limited too and often a FAILURE for the week.. And trust me, after a few years, there is no more room to run Alts..
You're not just going to jump from one established game to another established game without a lot of support, as the games are totally different. When I mentored in EQII if an EQ player came in solo, he wouldn't even get past Blackburrow, as he's cussing and screaming it's not like EQ.
If players are set in their ways, they can't adapt, or refuse to adapt. WoW is one of those games that the game play isn't difficult to grasp, it's the culture and game style that takes time to get used, too. Tanks don't direct in WoW, it's everyone-for-themselves. That's chaotic. Secondly, if folks don't RTFM they'll never fit in. It's not about exploring or learning things yourself, it's learning the things properly or you'll be kicked down the stairs over and over and over, and just quit out of frustration. WoW isn't a game to just explore on your own, it's designed to run around with friends and/or family to help. And if they don't RTFM (Wowhead), they won't be going nowhere.
BUT, if you do those things -- read; learn the culture; travel with people you know, then you can see why so many play WoW...and why it's so difficult to get away from, as family and friends will get you to come back all the time.
WoW isn't addicting for it's content, people play WoW because who they play WITH.
I'm actually a very casual player. I'd do more when I feel like it (raid if it's worth it; PvP for the same); or just spend weeks shooting pretty pictures and videos. My favorite hobby is doing things that they say Holy paladins can't do -- like in EQII when they said paladins couldn't do, just to prove folks wrong. What appeals to me about WoW is the Holy paladin sub-class, as a full-time healing paladin is unique. Kevyne's not a cleric nor druid style healer, he's a paladin healer. A very special snowflake, and my curiosity over it all keeps me interested in WoW.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.