Originally posted by Tranquility Define skill for me then. Offcourse when you play a FPS or a platformer, you need skill. What kind of skill ? Targetting skill, running skill jumping skill whatever. Now you could call everything you do in guild wars not skill based, but how do you explain that people get better at it over time ? Their knowledge increases ? Offcourse they learn wich spells are better, but eventually it comes down to the player to chose a skill at a certain point in time. Just like you need to know when to dodge in a fps, or you learn how to lead your shots etc. Everything could be called knowledge by your standard really. Only thing you might need less in guild wars is skill to move your mouse as precise as you can. In my honest opinion you cant seperate skill from knowledge, because they both have something to do with each other at some point.
You can seperate skill from knownledge hence they are two seperate words. I'm glad I didn't pick this title up. I would hate to play with a bunch of goons that think they have skills. These mmorpgs are too slow paced to be called skill games. But, if you think it gives you skills then you go right on ahead and believe it (rofl).
Originally posted by Magpie LOL what a pointless argument.Cambridge DictionaryDefinition skill [Show phonetics] noun [C or U] an ability to do an activity or job well, especially because you have practised it: Ruth had/possessed great writing skills. I have no skill at/in sewing. The acquisition of knowledge and applying it is skill. Whether its learning FPS maps and training your reflexes, or choosing tactical combinations in GW and learning how and when to apply them.Trying to say the use of knowledge to improve you performance is not skill is idiotic. Just an attempt to stir a hornets nest and try and sound clever in my humble opinion.
Just to clarify that definition, I will post another one that is more like the real one. Proficiency, facility, or dexterity that is acquired or developed through training or experience.
Did you notice that it says it is a thing developed through practice/training, lots of times a dexterity? What does that sound like to you? a twitch game.
Just to clarify that definition, I will post another one that is more like the real one. Proficiency, facility, or dexterity that is acquired or developed through training or experience.
Did you notice that it says it is a thing developed through practice/training, lots of times a dexterity? What does that sound like to you? a twitch game.
So you are limiting skill to the realms of dexterity?? What about say an architect? Can you not have skilful architects? How about mathematicians, physicist, novelists, poets? You are willing to exclude all these from the realm of skilful? How come you definition of skill carries more weight than Cambridge?
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And for Ramonski7 all youre trying to say is that you want a twitched based MMORPG? Fair enough there are many who do.
Please however do not delude yourself that your version of TRUE skill is authoritative in anyway. I will agree that most FPS take a lot more practice to master than many MMOGs. Most MMOGs allow for players to cruse through the game with out any real challenge.
However these games all take skill in varying ways. A skilful group in GW can wipe the floor with an unskilful group with the exact same make up.
I think the problem is that it is not the type of skill you wished for and you are under the delusion that your favoured type of skill is some how TRUER than the rest.
There are only 10 types of programmers. Those that understand binary and those that don't.
Originally posted by Magpie LOL what a pointless argument.Cambridge DictionaryDefinition skill [Show phonetics] noun [C or U] an ability to do an activity or job well, especially because you have practised it: Ruth had/possessed great writing skills. I have no skill at/in sewing. The acquisition of knowledge and applying it is skill. Whether its learning FPS maps and training your reflexes, or choosing tactical combinations in GW and learning how and when to apply them.Trying to say the use of knowledge to improve you performance is not skill is idiotic. Just an attempt to stir a hornets nest and try and sound clever in my humble opinion.
Please be quite before you hurt yourself....really. No one here is arguing if knowledge improves skill. Please read my orinigal post before making any foolish comments. What I'm saying is knowledge does not equal skill, it's just another part of the equation. Skill comes with what you have clearly pointed out in you sad attempt to try and denounce this thread with your 'online' definition.....the practice part.
Now the type of skills that you are practicing in GWs is not any different than what is available in all other MMOs out there in some shape or form.....same crap. Look at it this way:
MMOs and their current combat systems are like VHS. Each has a different way of telling a story using the same media. Not a bad thing really. But I'm waiting for the next leap forward in the media. Soon FPS controls in MMOs will be like DVDs compared to what they are using now. Same great stories, only this time a whole new way of experiencing them.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
The combat system in GW requires players to know what they are doing but definately not skill-based.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
Now compaire that with
Originally posted by Ramonski7
Now the type of skills that you are practicing in GWs is not any different than what is available in all other MMOs out there in some shape or form.....same crap.
If you are going to make a statement as bold as "Playing GW requires no skill. Stop insulting twitch players." You are going to need some strong evidence to back it up to prevent yourself looking like a loudmouth idiot. Ironically enough once you tone down your original point and look at your most resent posts there is some sense in it. I agree the current MMOG combat systems are in a dire need of an upgrade. However I disagree that following the direction of FPS is the correct way to take this. This is an old and very thoroughly debated topic so I wont start another rehash of it here. Personally I think GW is MMOG with a different approach. Its PvE is very RPG traditional with a very strong story line. Its PvP has a strong arcade/console feel. Fast and a lot more involved and fast paced than a standard MMORPG. I think GW is an improvement and a step in the right direction, you do not. Simple enough.
There are only 10 types of programmers. Those that understand binary and those that don't.
Originally posted by Egold Just to clarify that definition, I will post another one that is more like the real one.Proficiency, facility, or dexterity that is acquired or developed through training or experience. Did you notice that it says it is a thing developed through practice/training, lots of times a dexterity? What does that sound like to you? a twitch game.
So you are limiting skill to the realms of dexterity?? What about say an architect? Can you not have skilful architects? How about mathematicians, physicist, novelists, poets? You are willing to exclude all these from the realm of skilful? How come you definition of skill carries more weight than Cambridge?
The professions that you have listed are never referred to as being skillful, except the architect and we all know they are considered builders... the rest of your examples are known to be very KNOWLEDGEABLE in their respective fields. And for the record the only time a novelist or poet skills would be highlighted is if someone focused on their writing skills, other than that the main focus is style.
And for Ramonski7 all youre trying to say is that you want a twitched based MMORPG? Fair enough there are many who do.
Please however do not delude yourself that your version of TRUE skill is authoritative in anyway. I will agree that most FPS take a lot more practice to master than many MMOGs. Most MMOGs allow for players to cruse through the game with out any real challenge.
Sad thing is most GW players are doing just that. Flaming other MMOs for their lack of needing any "real" skills and how much more skillful you had to be to play GWs. I find this VERY misleading. Especially when people who would come aboard GWs thinking that something new has happened when all the time it's the same old combat system.
However these games all take skill in varying ways. A skilful group in GW can wipe the floor with an unskilful group with the exact same make up.
[b] This is exactly the point I'm trying to make. But how many times will you EVER see a battle like this? Not many. Which is the reason the focus in GWs seems to be strategy and not skill. Wasn't this the original intent of the developers anyway? To level the playing field and give newbs a chance to go toe-to-toe with vets?/[b]
I think the problem is that it is not the type of skill you wished for and you are under the delusion that your favoured type of skill is some how TRUER than the rest.
But the word "skill" holds the general meaning for some physical trait that many people share. Take a job app for instance and it will ask you to list your level of education(knowledge) and skills(physical specialties) you may posses that would be considered helpful for a job. These things are separate on the app for a reason. But I'm sure you will look pass this as a poor excuse of trying to argue my point....[/quote]
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Originally posted by Magpie Ok I've re-read your first post Originally posted by Ramonski7
The combat system in GW requires players to know what they are doing but definately not skill-based.
Now compaire that with Originally posted by Ramonski7 Now the type of skills that you are practicing in GWs is not any different than what is available in all other MMOs out there in some shape or form.....same crap. If you are going to make a statement as bold as "Playing GW requires no skill. Stop insulting twitch players." You are going to need some strong evidence to back it up to prevent yourself looking like a loudmouth idiot.
Ironically enough once you tone down your original point and look at your most resent posts there is some sense in it. I agree the current MMOG combat systems are in a dire need of an upgrade.
However I disagree that following the direction of FPS is the correct way to take this. This is an old and very thoroughly debated topic so I wont start another rehash of it here.
Personally I think GW is MMOG with a different approach. Its PvE is very RPG traditional with a very strong story line. Its PvP has a strong arcade/console feel. Fast and a lot more involved and fast paced than a standard MMORPG.
I think GW is an improvement and a step in the right direction, you do not. Simple enough.
Ok now look at those two parts....see anything conflicting? I said skilled-based. GWs is NOT skill-based in the sense of what players are making it out to be. And the types of skills I was referring to hold true for all MMOs across the boards. In FFXI you had timing of chains and you could dodge some enemy attacks. Also placement made a difference in what could be done by certain classes. In WoW terrain plays a part as most spells require you to have a line-of-sight as well as some skills.
And please, PLEASE do not compare GWs combat system to "twitch" base games by saying it has a arcade/console feel. This is the same misleading trash that has me trying to argue this point in this thread in the first place. It is completely false. You cannot play GWs with a game pad so stop trying to make it seem that way. The only thing GWs have done for MMOs is "dumb" it down and eliminated the need to grind. This just goes to level the playing field for newbs who refuse to put in the time/effort/research to get good at a game. And the main reason why a lvl 20 maxed PvP team who only researched message boards and maybe picked up the game 3 days ago holds the same clout as a team who has played for a year. They still have a chance at climbing the guild ladder and you wanna call that skill?
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Ramonski7 I think we are going to have to agree to differ. I still strongly disagree with your definition of skill. To me it is most defiantly the application of knowledge whether that be mental or motor neuron. For example I will go to my profession, Software Engineering. I know plenty of knowledgeable Software Engineers that arent very skilful and many that are tremendously talented/skilful. They have the same level of knowledge but some are more practised and are better able of applying that knowledge.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
Practise does improve skill because it improves your knowledge and how best to apply it. This applies to anything from kicking a football to writing a novel. If you can get better at it then its a skill.
Also I will stand my ground that GW has an arcade/console feel. To me it very much does. To you I guess not. This is all highly subjective and I accept that your opinion could be just as valid as mine. Can you do the same?
There are only 10 types of programmers. Those that understand binary and those that don't.
[quote]Originally posted by Ramonski7 [b][quote]Originally posted by Magpie
So you are limiting skill to the realms of dexterity?? What about say an architect? Can you not have skilful architects? How about mathematicians, physicist, novelists, poets? You are willing to exclude all these from the realm of skilful? How come you definition of skill carries more weight than Cambridge?
Your right, i shouldn't asssume my definition is more correct that theirs. However, I DO think that you can have skillfull architects. I DONT think you can have skillfull poets, physicists, or mathematicians. I am NOT limiting skill to dexterity, i am limiting it to bodily performance. What do poets have? intelligence, creativity, knowledge. What do physicists have? talent, smarts, knowledge. Same for mathematicians. I am saying that basically what skill is in computer games is dexterity.
Originally posted by Magpie Ramonski7 I think we are going to have to agree to differ. I still strongly disagree with your definition of skill. To me it is most defiantly the application of knowledge whether that be mental or motor neuron. For example I will go to my profession, Software Engineering. I know plenty of knowledgeable Software Engineers that arent very skilful and many that are tremendously talented/skilful. They have the same level of knowledge but some are more practised and are better able of applying that knowledge.
Practise does improve skill because it improves your knowledge and how best to apply it. This applies to anything from kicking a football to writing a novel. If you can get better at it then its a skill.
Also I will stand my ground that GW has an arcade/console feel. To me it very much does. To you I guess not. This is all highly subjective and I accept that your opinion could be just as valid as mine. Can you do the same?
Magpie I respect you stance on the matter and appreciate your opinion. I see that your beliefs greatly vary from mine on the subject. I believe that GWs requires very little "hands-on" skills and players get better as they gain more knowledge. I feel skill is a term best used to measure a player's abilities in twitch based games. And that's where our opinions differ. And I'll leave it at that.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Magpie I respect you stance on the matter and appreciate your opinion. I see that your beliefs greatly vary from mine on the subject. I believe that GWs requires very little "hands-on" skills and players get better as they gain more knowledge. I feel skill is a term best used to measure a player's abilities in twitch based games. And that's where our opinions differ. And I'll leave it at that.
<?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> Mutual respect all round
Staying on the GW topic and using your definition of skill relating to twitch. I suppose the use of knowledge would be tactics? That would make GW a tactical game. I can agree to that. It's the only combat system in a MMOG that requires a respectable level of tactics since EVE, out of the ones I've played that is. It doesn't have the depth of EVE but is faster paced and timing is more important. To me GW PvP is a pickup and play game. It has an element of twitch but not too much to exclude it for all but the hardcore players, an element of tactics where good grouping and experience are a must but can be achieved in a relativity quick time.
To me as causal gamer it fits the bill fantastically. Has it got the depth to last, I will have wait and see but without the monthly subscription I feel I have already got my moneys worth. Don't forget the huge and refreshingly well written quests of the PvE game. Something that was getting progressively worse in the MMOG industry IMO. ****cough**** SWG dynamic quests ****cough****.
There are only 10 types of programmers. Those that understand binary and those that don't.
I agree with the original poster and the people that disagree with him (hmm sitting on the fence). The point is, yes there is some skill involved in the GW combat system but it's an insult to the games that are using twitch-based combat systems to put the GW level of skill in the same bracket - it's simply nowhere near as intuitive or reaction based. An example, you *could* by mistake pick the right weapons to do the job against your opponents in GW, in a twitch-based environment you make a mistake & you get owned 100% of the time.
Putting the 2 combat systems together would be like saying The Sims is on a level with Counter Strike - absurd.
BTW - which MMO's have twitch-based combat? The only one I know of is Roma Victor.....
I have played games like Guild Wars, and games like Counte Strike, and my view is that neither require too much skill, you will find people that win all the time in these games usually use cheap tactics, and exploits they have learnt
I'm talking about spawn camping and other such "tactics"
problem is players are forced to opperate within the preset rules of the game, and until a game allows players to bend these rules and let the player use there full potential, there will never be a completely skill based game
well looks like I went off topic a bit sorry
No Flamming Please
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
In the end the control method is a keyboard and/or mouse. Unless you can fight AFK then a game requires skill, its the software that turns your clicks and keypresses into actions. Some games may require more of these keypresses and clicks, but in the end that's all it is.
---sig---
PvE in general is pretty lame, if you think long and hard about it. You are spending your time beating a severely gimped AI that would lose to a well trained monkey. Best not to think too long and hard why you are wasting time playing games in general actually...
After playing for a while i agree it is lots of knowledge and a little skill in applying it. If you dont have the right skills in the first place then you have no chance really, so knowledge is the most important.
If you do have the right skills but you dont use them correctly then you are lacking the skill of applying what you already know to the situation. Its still mostly about preparing your available skills beforehand though.
I enjoy it anyway though, I dont argue either way!
Originally posted by Xzaro Without knowledge, skill is nothing.Therefore, knowledge is part skill.
Sure, without basic knowledge skill is nothing, but how does that make knowledge part of skill? Without a bullet, a gun means nothing. But does that make the bullet part gun? (i know its a bad thing to compare it to, but i couldn't think of anything. ) they are two separate things, despite the fact that skill needs some basic knowledge.
Well it seems as though a majority of posters here get the point I am trying to make. And some even got the connection to the type of skills I was talking about when I chose my topic statement. Now as long as posters here understand that, we can continue foward in the debate about how GW players(or any current MMO players for that matter) are not and should not be put on the same level as twitch-based players in terms of comparing skillfulness.
I also want to thank each and every poster here for contributing their veiws without turning this thread into a pointless flame war with no focus. And to those who still do not get it, if you do not understand the purpose behind this debate after reading the paragraph above. Do yourself a favor and move on without even trying to attempt to post anything here you may think is valid.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Originally posted by Ramonski7 Well it seems as though a majority of posters here get the point I am trying to make. And some even got the connection to the type of skills I was talking about when I chose my topic statement. Now as long as posters here understand that, we can continue foward in the debate about how GW players(or any current MMO players for that matter) are not and should not be put on the same level as twitch-based players in terms of comparing skillfulness.
Here's where I disagree with you. I think people that excel at games like Starcraft, Warcraft3, should be recognized for their skill at the same level as FPS players, provided there is reasonable competition for the games. Just like I think Grandmaster chess players should be applauded for their skill as well as NBA players. They both excel at competive games with a fair amount of stiff competition. I think you're being somewhat narrow in what you define as skill if you think those that play twitch games shouldn't be seen on the same level as other types of gamers.
(Yes, I'm putting Guild Wars on the same level as Starcraft and Warcraft3.)
Originally posted by Xzaro Without knowledge, skill is nothing.
Therefore, knowledge is part skill.
Sure, without basic knowledge skill is nothing, but how does that make knowledge part of skill? Without a bullet, a gun means nothing. But does that make the bullet part gun? (i know its a bad thing to compare it to, but i couldn't think of anything. ) they are two separate things, despite the fact that skill needs some basic knowledge.
Bad example. Every try hurting someone by THROWING a bullet at them? It will only go off if they got a metal skull or after it hits the ground and that point anyone could get hit... The aiming of the gun decides if ALL that damage will completely take out the enemy or simply fly past him.
Again you made a bad example.
Knowledge is a must for any skill. Skill itself is the ability to apply with effort a situation that allows you to do what you want with effiiciency that could be far superior to that of others. That Guild Wars does. To say Guild Wars doesn't require skill is like saying neither does magic the gathering and that is simply not true.
In real life things are tossed our way we had no clue was comming. The real skill is how well you deal with the hand you got.
In alot of ways FPS requires less skills simply because everyone is on an equal playing field. (for the most part. Knowledge playing a huge part IF you know the map better than your opponent.)
True skill is going into the unknown and being able to continually hold your own.
Comments
You can seperate skill from knownledge hence they are two seperate words. I'm glad I didn't pick this title up. I would hate to play with a bunch of goons that think they have skills. These mmorpgs are too slow paced to be called skill games. But, if you think it gives you skills then you go right on ahead and believe it (rofl).
Just to clarify that definition, I will post another one that is more like the real one.
Proficiency, facility, or dexterity that is acquired or developed through training or experience.
Did you notice that it says it is a thing developed through practice/training, lots of times a dexterity? What does that sound like to you? a twitch game.
So you are limiting skill to the realms of dexterity?? What about say an architect? Can you not have skilful architects? How about mathematicians, physicist, novelists, poets? You are willing to exclude all these from the realm of skilful? How come you definition of skill carries more weight than Cambridge?
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And for Ramonski7 all youre trying to say is that you want a twitched based MMORPG? Fair enough there are many who do.
Please however do not delude yourself that your version of TRUE skill is authoritative in anyway. I will agree that most FPS take a lot more practice to master than many MMOGs. Most MMOGs allow for players to cruse through the game with out any real challenge.
However these games all take skill in varying ways. A skilful group in GW can wipe the floor with an unskilful group with the exact same make up.
I think the problem is that it is not the type of skill you wished for and you are under the delusion that your favoured type of skill is some how TRUER than the rest.
There are only 10 types of programmers. Those that understand binary and those that don't.
Please be quite before you hurt yourself....really. No one here is arguing if knowledge improves skill. Please read my orinigal post before making any foolish comments. What I'm saying is knowledge does not equal skill, it's just another part of the equation. Skill comes with what you have clearly pointed out in you sad attempt to try and denounce this thread with your 'online' definition.....the practice part.
Now the type of skills that you are practicing in GWs is not any different than what is available in all other MMOs out there in some shape or form.....same crap. Look at it this way:
MMOs and their current combat systems are like VHS. Each has a different way of telling a story using the same media. Not a bad thing really. But I'm waiting for the next leap forward in the media. Soon FPS controls in MMOs will be like DVDs compared to what they are using now. Same great stories, only this time a whole new way of experiencing them.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Ok I've re-read your first post
Now compaire that with
If you are going to make a statement as bold as "Playing GW requires no skill. Stop insulting twitch players." You are going to need some strong evidence to back it up to prevent yourself looking like a loudmouth idiot.
Ironically enough once you tone down your original point and look at your most resent posts there is some sense in it. I agree the current MMOG combat systems are in a dire need of an upgrade.
However I disagree that following the direction of FPS is the correct way to take this. This is an old and very thoroughly debated topic so I wont start another rehash of it here.
Personally I think GW is MMOG with a different approach. Its PvE is very RPG traditional with a very strong story line. Its PvP has a strong arcade/console feel. Fast and a lot more involved and fast paced than a standard MMORPG.
I think GW is an improvement and a step in the right direction, you do not. Simple enough.
There are only 10 types of programmers. Those that understand binary and those that don't.
[quote]Originally posted by Magpie
Originally posted by Egold
Just to clarify that definition, I will post another one that is more like the real one.Proficiency, facility, or dexterity that is acquired or developed through training or experience.
Did you notice that it says it is a thing developed through practice/training, lots of times a dexterity? What does that sound like to you? a twitch game.
So you are limiting skill to the realms of dexterity?? What about say an architect? Can you not have skilful architects? How about mathematicians, physicist, novelists, poets? You are willing to exclude all these from the realm of skilful? How come you definition of skill carries more weight than Cambridge?
The professions that you have listed are never referred to as being skillful, except the architect and we all know they are considered builders... the rest of your examples are known to be very KNOWLEDGEABLE in their respective fields. And for the record the only time a novelist or poet skills would be highlighted is if someone focused on their writing skills, other than that the main focus is style.
And for Ramonski7 all youre trying to say is that you want a twitched based MMORPG? Fair enough there are many who do.
Please however do not delude yourself that your version of TRUE skill is authoritative in anyway. I will agree that most FPS take a lot more practice to master than many MMOGs. Most MMOGs allow for players to cruse through the game with out any real challenge.
Sad thing is most GW players are doing just that. Flaming other MMOs for their lack of needing any "real" skills and how much more skillful you had to be to play GWs. I find this VERY misleading. Especially when people who would come aboard GWs thinking that something new has happened when all the time it's the same old combat system.
However these games all take skill in varying ways. A skilful group in GW can wipe the floor with an unskilful group with the exact same make up.
[b] This is exactly the point I'm trying to make.
But how many times will you EVER see a battle like this? Not many. Which is the reason the focus in GWs seems to be strategy and not skill. Wasn't this the original intent of the developers anyway? To level the playing field and give newbs a chance to go toe-to-toe with vets?/[b]
I think the problem is that it is not the type of skill you wished for and you are under the delusion that your favoured type of skill is some how TRUER than the rest.
But the word "skill" holds the general meaning for some physical trait that many people share. Take a job app for instance and it will ask you to list your level of education(knowledge) and skills(physical specialties) you may posses that would be considered helpful for a job. These things are separate on the app for a reason. But I'm sure you will look pass this as a poor excuse of trying to argue my point....[/quote]
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Ok now look at those two parts....see anything conflicting? I said skilled-based. GWs is NOT skill-based in the sense of what players are making it out to be. And the types of skills I was referring to hold true for all MMOs across the boards. In FFXI you had timing of chains and you could dodge some enemy attacks. Also placement made a difference in what could be done by certain classes. In WoW terrain plays a part as most spells require you to have a line-of-sight as well as some skills.
And please, PLEASE do not compare GWs combat system to "twitch" base games by saying it has a arcade/console feel. This is the same misleading trash that has me trying to argue this point in this thread in the first place. It is completely false. You cannot play GWs with a game pad so stop trying to make it seem that way. The only thing GWs have done for MMOs is "dumb" it down and eliminated the need to grind. This just goes to level the playing field for newbs who refuse to put in the time/effort/research to get good at a game. And the main reason why a lvl 20 maxed PvP team who only researched message boards and maybe picked up the game 3 days ago holds the same clout as a team who has played for a year. They still have a chance at climbing the guild ladder and you wanna call that skill?
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Ramonski7 I think we are going to have to agree to differ. I still strongly disagree with your definition of skill. To me it is most defiantly the application of knowledge whether that be mental or motor neuron. For example I will go to my profession, Software Engineering. I know plenty of knowledgeable Software Engineers that arent very skilful and many that are tremendously talented/skilful. They have the same level of knowledge but some are more practised and are better able of applying that knowledge.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
Practise does improve skill because it improves your knowledge and how best to apply it. This applies to anything from kicking a football to writing a novel. If you can get better at it then its a skill.
Also I will stand my ground that GW has an arcade/console feel. To me it very much does. To you I guess not. This is all highly subjective and I accept that your opinion could be just as valid as mine. Can you do the same?
There are only 10 types of programmers. Those that understand binary and those that don't.
[quote]Originally posted by Ramonski7
[b][quote]Originally posted by Magpie
So you are limiting skill to the realms of dexterity?? What about say an architect? Can you not have skilful architects? How about mathematicians, physicist, novelists, poets? You are willing to exclude all these from the realm of skilful? How come you definition of skill carries more weight than Cambridge?
Your right, i shouldn't asssume my definition is more correct that theirs. However, I DO think that you can have skillfull architects. I DONT think you can have skillfull poets, physicists, or mathematicians. I am NOT limiting skill to dexterity, i am limiting it to bodily performance. What do poets have? intelligence, creativity, knowledge. What do physicists have? talent, smarts, knowledge. Same for mathematicians. I am saying that basically what skill is in computer games is dexterity.
Magpie I respect you stance on the matter and appreciate your opinion. I see that your beliefs greatly vary from mine on the subject. I believe that GWs requires very little "hands-on" skills and players get better as they gain more knowledge. I feel skill is a term best used to measure a player's abilities in twitch based games. And that's where our opinions differ. And I'll leave it at that.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
It means the combat is action based as in its not just auto-attack and click a few spells/skills.
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Staying on the GW topic and using your definition of skill relating to twitch. I suppose the use of knowledge would be tactics? That would make GW a tactical game. I can agree to that. It's the only combat system in a MMOG that requires a respectable level of tactics since EVE, out of the ones I've played that is. It doesn't have the depth of EVE but is faster paced and timing is more important. To me GW PvP is a pickup and play game. It has an element of twitch but not too much to exclude it for all but the hardcore players, an element of tactics where good grouping and experience are a must but can be achieved in a relativity quick time.
To me as causal gamer it fits the bill fantastically. Has it got the depth to last, I will have wait and see but without the monthly subscription I feel I have already got my moneys worth. Don't forget the huge and refreshingly well written quests of the PvE game. Something that was getting progressively worse in the MMOG industry IMO. ****cough**** SWG dynamic quests ****cough****.
There are only 10 types of programmers. Those that understand binary and those that don't.
Without knowledge, skill is nothing.
Therefore, knowledge is part skill.
Well, the answer is very simple...
See how many people here does not agree with you...
Skill, as Ramonski implied it, is something I dont value, desired or respect.
I certainly dont play or desire my games to relly on those.
I am still mourning the very little amount of game based turn options.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I agree with the original poster and the people that disagree with him (hmm sitting on the fence). The point is, yes there is some skill involved in the GW combat system but it's an insult to the games that are using twitch-based combat systems to put the GW level of skill in the same bracket - it's simply nowhere near as intuitive or reaction based. An example, you *could* by mistake pick the right weapons to do the job against your opponents in GW, in a twitch-based environment you make a mistake & you get owned 100% of the time.
Putting the 2 combat systems together would be like saying The Sims is on a level with Counter Strike - absurd.
BTW - which MMO's have twitch-based combat? The only one I know of is Roma Victor.....
-Marca
I have played games like Guild Wars, and games like Counte Strike, and my view is that neither require too much skill, you will find people that win all the time in these games usually use cheap tactics, and exploits they have learnt
I'm talking about spawn camping and other such "tactics"
problem is players are forced to opperate within the preset rules of the game, and until a game allows players to bend these rules and let the player use there full potential, there will never be a completely skill based game
well looks like I went off topic a bit sorry
No Flamming Please
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
In the end the control method is a keyboard and/or mouse. Unless you can fight AFK then a game requires skill, its the software that turns your clicks and keypresses into actions. Some games may require more of these keypresses and clicks, but in the end that's all it is.
---sig---
PvE in general is pretty lame, if you think long and hard about it. You are spending your time beating a severely gimped AI that would lose to a well trained monkey. Best not to think too long and hard why you are wasting time playing games in general actually...
After playing for a while i agree it is lots of knowledge and a little skill in applying it. If you dont have the right skills in the first place then you have no chance really, so knowledge is the most important.
If you do have the right skills but you dont use them correctly then you are lacking the skill of applying what you already know to the situation. Its still mostly about preparing your available skills beforehand though.
I enjoy it anyway though, I dont argue either way!
Sure, without basic knowledge skill is nothing, but how does that make knowledge part of skill?
Without a bullet, a gun means nothing. But does that make the bullet part gun? (i know its a bad thing to compare it to, but i couldn't think of anything. ) they are two separate things, despite the fact that skill needs some basic knowledge.
Well it seems as though a majority of posters here get the point I am trying to make. And some even got the connection to the type of skills I was talking about when I chose my topic statement. Now as long as posters here understand that, we can continue foward in the debate about how GW players(or any current MMO players for that matter) are not and should not be put on the same level as twitch-based players in terms of comparing skillfulness.
I also want to thank each and every poster here for contributing their veiws without turning this thread into a pointless flame war with no focus. And to those who still do not get it, if you do not understand the purpose behind this debate after reading the paragraph above. Do yourself a favor and move on without even trying to attempt to post anything here you may think is valid.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Your face Requires NO skill
http://www.mozilla.org
Here's where I disagree with you. I think people that excel at games like Starcraft, Warcraft3, should be recognized for their skill at the same level as FPS players, provided there is reasonable competition for the games. Just like I think Grandmaster chess players should be applauded for their skill as well as NBA players. They both excel at competive games with a fair amount of stiff competition. I think you're being somewhat narrow in what you define as skill if you think those that play twitch games shouldn't be seen on the same level as other types of gamers.
(Yes, I'm putting Guild Wars on the same level as Starcraft and Warcraft3.)
Sure, without basic knowledge skill is nothing, but how does that make knowledge part of skill?
Without a bullet, a gun means nothing. But does that make the bullet part gun? (i know its a bad thing to compare it to, but i couldn't think of anything. ) they are two separate things, despite the fact that skill needs some basic knowledge.
Bad example. Every try hurting someone by THROWING a bullet at them? It will only go off if they got a metal skull or after it hits the ground and that point anyone could get hit... The aiming of the gun decides if ALL that damage will completely take out the enemy or simply fly past him.
Again you made a bad example.
Knowledge is a must for any skill. Skill itself is the ability to apply with effort a situation that allows you to do what you want with effiiciency that could be far superior to that of others. That Guild Wars does. To say Guild Wars doesn't require skill is like saying neither does magic the gathering and that is simply not true.
In real life things are tossed our way we had no clue was comming. The real skill is how well you deal with the hand you got.
In alot of ways FPS requires less skills simply because everyone is on an equal playing field. (for the most part. Knowledge playing a huge part IF you know the map better than your opponent.)
True skill is going into the unknown and being able to continually hold your own.
Realmreaver formally of EQ, SWG, FFXI and WoW.
Malis/Pirotess of PSO.
Some named of Diablo 1 and 2
Grendel Kinguard of GW.