Originally posted by Magiknight There are already sooooo many games soooooo closely related to WoW. Why would we want another one?
Because most have failed to do it right. Look at Warhammer Online...
I also look at TSW, SWTOR, FFXI (now), ARR, some game I forgot the name of (started on a pirate ship), Rift, and many other games I've forgotten the name of.
I remember my first Griffin flight back in 2004. flying from SW.... I flew over the Burning Steppes, Black Rock, The Searing Gorge.....
I remember thinking to myself.... WOW! I want to go there! I want to see that! I want to do that!
WoW had a way.... no..... a brilliant way.... of grabbing you, hook line and sinker. I know people complained about the flights being too long. But it gave you previews of things to do and places to see. The size of the vanilla world along with the capitals being so spread out gave the world so much scale and Blizzard teased you with those epic flights.
Over all I found Wildstar to be an enjoyable experience, But..... There are no hooks, The beginning is very confined and boring.
Originally posted by Magiknight There are already sooooo many games soooooo closely related to WoW. Why would we want another one?
Because most have failed to do it right. Look at Warhammer Online...
Most have failed to do it right - well look at Rift - didn't appear to do much wrong, and that was quoted as another wow killer. Had quest hubs, story lines, dungeons, raids - with rifts and extra class versatility thrown in.
Polished game, and made no bones about being a pretty standard wow type game.
- and like others, ftp now.
I'm not convinced that the decline of all these others is down to a failure to do it right. I'd say that their failure, for those who like a wow type game, was simply that they where not wow.
The reason we're seeing a lot of WoW-ness is that the big companies are too scared to do anything new.
The game designers have to present their ideas to the company directors and cite examples of how similar games in the past have done well.
It's been like this since computer games began, it's just that it's got worse over the last few years.
If you want something new, try the Kickstarter games - like Star Citizen and Elite: Dangerous.
I don't really think that goes for Wildstar. For better or for worse they've actively chosen to go in the WoW direction.
It's not like say SWtOR or WAR where there was some attempt to go in a different direction, which in the end didn't really succeed because, as you say, they seemed too afraid to fully go that way and instead had a watered-down version of a new direction on top of a watered-down version of WoW.
Wildstar isn't going in the direction they are out of fear that their other primary idea (like story and RvR were for the previous examples) won't work out. The direction is their primary idea, everything else is secondary and supporting it.
Wildstar is, proudly, a themepark raiding game. Not out of fear but as a choice. Now whether that will succeed or not I'm still very much on the fence about, but the game is very clear in it's direction.
I think you're trying to talk up a game that's stale and hard to defend.
We should be expecting innovation and genius. Raise the bar.
There's many different directions to innovate in, many forms of genius.
You're not looking for a raiding themepark, which I get can be frustrating considering the state of the MMO industry for the past few years. But that doesn't automatically make the games you're interested in innovative and genius and all others stale and hard to defend.
I'm personally not the least bit interested in Star Citizen and Elite: Dangerous. I don't like space sims, not my thing. As such I don't personally see much innovating and genius in those game, not because it isn't there but because they're not the innovations and genius I'm looking for.
As far as big innovations go I'm far more looking forward to Everquest Next and Landmark, much more my style.
As for Wildstar I can't say I fully know yet, I do know they're not the sort of flashy headline-grabbing innovations and genius. But such things can also take a rather more subtle form, improving the familiar in new and unexpected ways. I'll wait for the NDA to lift before I'm judging this one.
All I'm saying is there's different bars, same height but just in different places. The one you want to see passed may not be the one others are paying attention to, not because it's any lower or higher but just because it's in a different spot.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
The game has its charm, but toppling WoW or any other release this year? Not going to happen in my opinion, but that's the best part about all of this. We can all go play what we want! The game will have its place in the genre, but i see it competing with SWTOR more than ESO or WoW. It seems, even though it has similarities to WoW, that it might be very niche which i find surprising.
off topic though, someone in this thread reeeally loves this game apparently. Don't step on his hopes too much guys.
Let's say it is WoW 2.0. Have they really improved the formula enough to pull people away from over a decade of expanding content and potentially dozens of characters/hundreds of friends?
I don't think so. That's the problem when companies try to improve on WoW's design. Often they do succeed, but you need to beat it by that much more the longer WoW is allowed to expand and grow as a game. It's so entrenched in the system that it's difficult for people still playing it to ever leave.
I can't think of a worse time for Wildstar to release, either, with another WoW expansion right around the corner.
Think about it...by saying it's 2.0 you've admitted it's a clone. 2.0 just means a new (allegedly improved) version of something. You know like all WoW clones claim to make some sort of improvement on the WoW formula?
Let's say it is WoW 2.0. Have they really improved the formula enough to pull people away from over a decade of expanding content and potentially dozens of characters/hundreds of friends?
I don't think so. That's the problem when companies try to improve on WoW's design. Often they do succeed, but you need to beat it by that much more the longer WoW is allowed to expand and grow as a game. It's so entrenched in the system that it's difficult for people still playing it to ever leave.
I can't think of a worse time for Wildstar to release, either, with another WoW expansion right around the corner.
All we keep hearing is that WS is not a WoW clone, but it's like a new WoW. How does that make sense? How can it be WoW 2.0 if it's nothing like WoW? Wouldn't that make it . . . Not WoW 2.0? It would be Wildstar 1.0.
There's no shame in Wildstar being similar to WoW (and no, not just the visuals). "Clone" doesn't mean "literal copy" if that were the case, then there's never been a WoW clone. To pretend otherwise is to be disingenuous. When someone says "WoW clone" they mean that it resembles the basic building blocks of WoW. And Wildstar does.
The problem rests in the fact that the last 5 (maybe more) years have been spent demonizing and hating on WoW, therefore turning any comparison into a negative. That's unfair both to WoW and to the game being compared.
Wildstar is a very good game and has many robust and entertaining features, it stands on its own; but it's still a WoW clone. If you like it, then play it and enjoy. If you don't like it, then don't play it and go find something else to do.
Wildstar left a bitter taste in my mouth after playing the weekend beta.
I didn't feel attached to the lore or storyline and the zones felt like I was running through a bland palette of pastel colored smooth stone.
It's a bit too cartoony for my personal taste and I dislike the idea of exploring "planets" as I feel this is just a way for developers to create whatever content they want with whatever goofy flavouring they feel they want to present.
Bottomline, I didn't feel attached to the world, just another quest grinding, button-mashing MMO with features that have been used before.
All we keep hearing is that WS is not a WoW clone, but it's like a new WoW. How does that make sense? How can it be WoW 2.0 if it's nothing like WoW? Wouldn't that make it . . . Not WoW 2.0? It would be Wildstar 1.0.
There's no shame in Wildstar being similar to WoW (and no, not just the visuals). "Clone" doesn't mean "literal copy" if that were the case, then there's never been a WoW clone. To pretend otherwise is to be disingenuous. When someone says "WoW clone" they mean that it resembles the basic building blocks of WoW. And Wildstar does.
The problem rests in the fact that the last 5 (maybe more) years have been spent demonizing and hating on WoW, therefore turning any comparison into a negative. That's unfair both to WoW and to the game being compared.
Wildstar is a very good game and has many robust and entertaining features, it stands on its own; but it's still a WoW clone. If you like it, then play it and enjoy. If you don't like it, then don't play it and go find something else to do.
This should kind of be /thread imo.
I totally agree that it is a wow clone and that's only bad if you don't like WoW. WoW clone has only become a derogatory term because enough people are tired of WoW clones. It's the term that comes to my mind when I play a game and I run into some of those iconic features that are most prevalent in themeparks, popularized by WoW. The term exists for a reason: so that people know what they're getting into.
I've seen this argument before, some 20 years ago. Shortly after Doom came out, there were a number of games that players and press called "Doom Clones". The term died out over time, replaced with "first-person shooter", although it did take some ten years or more for attitudes to change.
The arguments for calling something a clone were stupid then, and they're equally myopic now. "Themepark MMO" works, people understand what it means and what they're getting, and it's much less emotive and inaccurate. But hey, if your sole goal is to stir the pot, carry on...
Player of games, smither of words, former of opinions, and masher of keys. WildStar Columnist Currently playing: WildStar, Guild Wars 2, EVE Online, Vain Glory.
So to understand you (and him), WoW currently has:
a) 40 man raids, yes? b) base sieging and destruction (warplots) in 40 vs 40 pvp, yes? c) combat that allows you to dodge attacks via player skill, yes? d) your own house, with structures that you can build around it, yes? e) world building of structures, yes? f) ability to travel offworld to moons and asteroids, yes?
A. which they got rid of because they stink B. which is not something I look forward to in any way and yeah they have 40 vs 40 PvP. C. which is horribly flawed D. yeah big deal? I think WoW has something like this now E. Dunno what this is F. Yeah actually, you can travel 'off world' in WoW. Not that this is some big deal.
Your post wreaks of desperation to convince yourself that it is somehow an improved WoW. It is the same basic game with a few things changed. Your in game experience is almost the exact same as are the graphics.
a. They got rid of them due to them being too hard and people whining, not because they stunk. This is a massively multiplayer game, we expect to have massively multiplayer battles. Anything below 32 players aint massive.
WoW evolved from 40m raids imo because of quite a few factors. Boss mechanics cannot be very complex due to area size, lag, player coordination, and raid management. Let's face it, with 40 players you can't have complex mechanics. Also, isn't one of WS's focuses on 20m raids? Don't you have to complete the 20m before you can do the 40m? I don't think the WS devs think 20m raids are a waste of time.
b) WoW has 40 vs 40 pvp, but you dont get to join a warparty (pvp guild) and build a base piece by piece, have to repair it, get to put turrets and traps freely, and have its progress (both positive and negative) persistently carry over from battle to battle
You can most certainly join a PvP guild in WoW. WoW also has buildings in PvP that take damage, they have siege equipment, etc. They also have 40v40 BGs, etc. Not sure where you're going with this????
c) The combat aint flawed, you just dont like it. I personally love it, so how can it be flawed?
I find WS's combat to be closely related to GW2. Hopefully they fix the floaty feeling it had and also it just didn't feel like I was making contact with my attacks. It's all perception, no need to continue here.
d) WoW is getting housing in next expansion, doesnt have it now
By this logic, WS doesn't have anything right now then. Moot point.
e) Read up on the Settler path on how players can build structures throughout the world, including in PvP areas
Are the structures temporary? Any real benefits?
f) The point of offworld travel in WS is that since its a sci-fi game they can do anything they want in space. Thats why the game has you starting off on a space ship, thats why you can get a space ship house, thats why you can travel to other celestial bodies etc. Sure thats not unique as SWTOR did just that, but its an improvement over WoWs static fantasy only worlds.
Outland was based in a different planet. WoW's next xpac will be on another planet. Also, the Draenor are from a completely different planet and arrived in a space ship...thusly dubbed space goats.
The point of this is, WoW has more content than any new game can hope to compete with. I don't see much new with WS that would make me drop my WoW sub. It just seems like it's trying to out WoW WoW.
The path system and how you interact/alter your environment and the gw2/tera mix combat surely sets it apart from the game that influenced it.
But at the end of the day, it is another themepark with raid treadmill, which I find is an insult to the gamers. Until the day one company with balls takes the risk and brings back the risk of death and your successes and failures actually affecting the world you are in (ala shadowbane) these are what we will get. Excitements that will last for a few weeks and then mindlessly playing it for a few months, then jumping on the bandwagon of next aaa themepark.
All we keep hearing is that WS is not a WoW clone, but it's like a new WoW. How does that make sense? How can it be WoW 2.0 if it's nothing like WoW? Wouldn't that make it . . . Not WoW 2.0? It would be Wildstar 1.0.
WoW 2.0 in a sense of some of the devs who created wow 1.0 creating a new game from scratch and making changes at the core which in wow would be impossible to avoid alienation of longterm customers (9+ years?)
We can argue here arround whether some changes in wildstar are an improvement or make it worse but it's save to assume that the devs made those changes with the intention to improve and those who agree with those changes and see them as improvement call it rightly from their viewpoint as wow 2.0
Calling it Classic WoW 2.0 doesnt make it a clone. Its an improvement over the original WoW formula, which in itself was an improvement over the EQ formula. If you feel it hasnt improved enough then thats a valid point, but id say that if it changed too much then it would be attracting a different crowd all together. Carbine knows the players it wants to have and is making a game for just that audience. If youre not part of the audience then hopefully other games will do you good.
Calling it Classic WoW 2.0 doesnt make it a clone. Its an improvement over the original WoW formula, which in itself was an improvement over the EQ formula. If you feel it hasnt improved enough then thats a valid point, but id say that if it changed too much then it would be attracting a different crowd all together. Carbine knows the players it wants to have and is making a game for just that audience. If youre not part of the audience then hopefully other games will do you good.
Please take a look at my post on page 4. I'll summarize: You can't beat WoW by trying to be WoW.
WoW just has way to much content. Even WoW's graphics are being updated and are crisper and more detailed than WS.
If it's your game, by all means enjoy. I don't think it's right for others by pretending WS is something more than what it is, though.
a. They got rid of them due to them being too hard and people whining, not because they stunk. This is a massively multiplayer game, we expect to have massively multiplayer battles. Anything below 32 players aint massive.
They didn't get rid of 40 man raids because they were too hard and people complained, they got rid of them because they were a logistacle nightmare. Vanilla 40 man raids were the easiest raid encounters WoW has ever had from a fight mechanics standpoint. The most complex raid mechanics in Vanilla WoW were making sure healers dispelled debuffs, and ensure you were wearing a certain item so you wouldn't get 1 shot on certain fights.
I certainly hope WS's 40 mans are much more complex than Vanilla's, and if so, watch how so few people actually complete them. Then once that happens, watch how much time they spend developing more that only a tiny fraction of its playerbase can complete. Then watch how they make easier versions of them so more people can access and see the content, while leaving the hard stuff there for hardcores....see a pattern here?
I hope they are at least learning from previous lessons.
So to understand you (and him), WoW currently has:
a) 40 man raids, yes? b) base sieging and destruction (warplots) in 40 vs 40 pvp, yes? c) combat that allows you to dodge attacks via player skill, yes? d) your own house, with structures that you can build around it, yes? e) world building of structures, yes? f) ability to travel offworld to moons and asteroids, yes?
A. which they got rid of because they stink B. which is not something I look forward to in any way and yeah they have 40 vs 40 PvP. C. which is horribly flawed D. yeah big deal? I think WoW has something like this now E. Dunno what this is F. Yeah actually, you can travel 'off world' in WoW. Not that this is some big deal.
Your post wreaks of desperation to convince yourself that it is somehow an improved WoW. It is the same basic game with a few things changed. Your in game experience is almost the exact same as are the graphics.
a. They got rid of them due to them being too hard and people whining, not because they stunk. This is a massively multiplayer game, we expect to have massively multiplayer battles. Anything below 32 players aint massive.
WoW evolved from 40m raids imo because of quite a few factors. Boss mechanics cannot be very complex due to area size, lag, player coordination, and raid management. Let's face it, with 40 players you can't have complex mechanics. Also, isn't one of WS's focuses on 20m raids? Don't you have to complete the 20m before you can do the 40m? I don't think the WS devs think 20m raids are a waste of time.
b) WoW has 40 vs 40 pvp, but you dont get to join a warparty (pvp guild) and build a base piece by piece, have to repair it, get to put turrets and traps freely, and have its progress (both positive and negative) persistently carry over from battle to battle
You can most certainly join a PvP guild in WoW. WoW also has buildings in PvP that take damage, they have siege equipment, etc. They also have 40v40 BGs, etc. Not sure where you're going with this????
c) The combat aint flawed, you just dont like it. I personally love it, so how can it be flawed?
I find WS's combat to be closely related to GW2. Hopefully they fix the floaty feeling it had and also it just didn't feel like I was making contact with my attacks. It's all perception, no need to continue here.
d) WoW is getting housing in next expansion, doesnt have it now
By this logic, WS doesn't have anything right now then. Moot point.
e) Read up on the Settler path on how players can build structures throughout the world, including in PvP areas
Are the structures temporary? Any real benefits?
f) The point of offworld travel in WS is that since its a sci-fi game they can do anything they want in space. Thats why the game has you starting off on a space ship, thats why you can get a space ship house, thats why you can travel to other celestial bodies etc. Sure thats not unique as SWTOR did just that, but its an improvement over WoWs static fantasy only worlds.
Outland was based in a different planet. WoW's next xpac will be on another planet. Also, the Draenor are from a completely different planet and arrived in a space ship...thusly dubbed space goats.
The point of this is, WoW has more content than any new game can hope to compete with. I don't see much new with WS that would make me drop my WoW sub. It just seems like it's trying to out WoW WoW.
Well to be fair, thats over 9 years of content, no new game will cover that
The point of this is, WoW has more content than any new game can hope to compete with. I don't see much new with WS that would make me drop my WoW sub. It just seems like it's trying to out WoW WoW.
Well to be fair, thats over 9 years of content, no new game will cover that
WoW's current level 90 endgame raiding content, developed for and during its latest expansion pack, is currently sitting over 50 raid bosses deep. These arn't just regular filler push over raid bosses; these are some of the most polished, challenging, and complex raid encounters in the industry. I am pretty sure that is what he was mostly referring to, not accumulated obsolete stuff from over the years that folkes try to drag into the discussion to downplay its wealth of current endgame content.
a. They got rid of them due to them being too hard and people whining, not because they stunk. This is a massively multiplayer game, we expect to have massively multiplayer battles. Anything below 32 players aint massive.
They didn't get rid of 40 man raids because they were too hard and people complained, they got rid of them because they were a logistacle nightmare. Vanilla 40 man raids were the easiest raid encounters WoW has ever had from a fight mechanics standpoint. The most complex raid mechanics in Vanilla WoW were making sure healers dispelled debuffs, and ensure you were wearing a certain item so you wouldn't get 1 shot on certain fights.
I certainly hope WS's 40 mans are much more complex than Vanilla's, and if so, watch how so few people actually complete them. Then once that happens, watch how much time they spend developing more that only a tiny fraction of its playerbase can complete. Then watch how they make easier versions of them so more people can access and see the content, while leaving the hard stuff there for hardcores....see a pattern here?
I hope they are at least learning from previous lessons.
Current WoW raids are far more complex than they were back in Vanilla.
Blizzard has stated exactly why they did away with the old raiding model, and it's very simple to understand:
Only a small percentage of players were able to participate, not because it was too difficult, but because of what doodphace said . . . logistics. Coordinating 40 people is a nightmare for raid leaders. And what is a terrible business decision? One that dedicates time, money, and manpower to creating content that 2-3% of your players will ever participate in. That's why they dropped it, because it was a waste of time to develop. Blizzard's goal, whether you agree with it or not, has always been to create a game that more and more of it's players can play.
Is... this supposed to be praise? WoW's systems and design have been outdated for a good 9-10 years now. If this is its spiritual successor, does that bring it up to being 7 years outdated?
The point of this is, WoW has more content than any new game can hope to compete with. I don't see much new with WS that would make me drop my WoW sub. It just seems like it's trying to out WoW WoW.
Well to be fair, thats over 9 years of content, no new game will cover that
WoW's current level 90 endgame raiding content, developed for and during its latest expansion pack, is currently sitting over 50 raid bosses deep. These arn't just regular filler push over raid bosses; these are some of the most polished, challenging, and complex raid encounters in the industry. I am pretty sure that is what he was mostly referring to, not accumulated obsolete stuff from over the years that folkes try to drag into the discussion to downplay its wealth of current endgame content.
I prefer quality over quantity. Alot of WoWs newer content is kind of hit or miss since all they do is steal ideas from newer games and tack them on to theirs. They are like a huge amusement park adding a bunch of new rides all the time. It doesn't mean they are fun, well built, or fit in with the rest of the park.
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I also look at TSW, SWTOR, FFXI (now), ARR, some game I forgot the name of (started on a pirate ship), Rift, and many other games I've forgotten the name of.
I remember my first Griffin flight back in 2004. flying from SW.... I flew over the Burning Steppes, Black Rock, The Searing Gorge.....
I remember thinking to myself.... WOW! I want to go there! I want to see that! I want to do that!
WoW had a way.... no..... a brilliant way.... of grabbing you, hook line and sinker. I know people complained about the flights being too long. But it gave you previews of things to do and places to see. The size of the vanilla world along with the capitals being so spread out gave the world so much scale and Blizzard teased you with those epic flights.
Over all I found Wildstar to be an enjoyable experience, But..... There are no hooks, The beginning is very confined and boring.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Most have failed to do it right - well look at Rift - didn't appear to do much wrong, and that was quoted as another wow killer. Had quest hubs, story lines, dungeons, raids - with rifts and extra class versatility thrown in.
Polished game, and made no bones about being a pretty standard wow type game.
- and like others, ftp now.
I'm not convinced that the decline of all these others is down to a failure to do it right. I'd say that their failure, for those who like a wow type game, was simply that they where not wow.
There's many different directions to innovate in, many forms of genius.
You're not looking for a raiding themepark, which I get can be frustrating considering the state of the MMO industry for the past few years. But that doesn't automatically make the games you're interested in innovative and genius and all others stale and hard to defend.
I'm personally not the least bit interested in Star Citizen and Elite: Dangerous. I don't like space sims, not my thing. As such I don't personally see much innovating and genius in those game, not because it isn't there but because they're not the innovations and genius I'm looking for.
As far as big innovations go I'm far more looking forward to Everquest Next and Landmark, much more my style.
As for Wildstar I can't say I fully know yet, I do know they're not the sort of flashy headline-grabbing innovations and genius. But such things can also take a rather more subtle form, improving the familiar in new and unexpected ways. I'll wait for the NDA to lift before I'm judging this one.
All I'm saying is there's different bars, same height but just in different places. The one you want to see passed may not be the one others are paying attention to, not because it's any lower or higher but just because it's in a different spot.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
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(")("),,(")("),(")(")
The game has its charm, but toppling WoW or any other release this year? Not going to happen in my opinion, but that's the best part about all of this. We can all go play what we want! The game will have its place in the genre, but i see it competing with SWTOR more than ESO or WoW. It seems, even though it has similarities to WoW, that it might be very niche which i find surprising.
off topic though, someone in this thread reeeally loves this game apparently. Don't step on his hopes too much guys.
Let's say it is WoW 2.0. Have they really improved the formula enough to pull people away from over a decade of expanding content and potentially dozens of characters/hundreds of friends?
I don't think so. That's the problem when companies try to improve on WoW's design. Often they do succeed, but you need to beat it by that much more the longer WoW is allowed to expand and grow as a game. It's so entrenched in the system that it's difficult for people still playing it to ever leave.
I can't think of a worse time for Wildstar to release, either, with another WoW expansion right around the corner.
Think about it...by saying it's 2.0 you've admitted it's a clone. 2.0 just means a new (allegedly improved) version of something. You know like all WoW clones claim to make some sort of improvement on the WoW formula?
Think you've hit the nail on the head here.
Wildstar is not a WoW clone!
Wildstar is not a WoW clone!
Wildstar is not a WoW clone!
The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
All we keep hearing is that WS is not a WoW clone, but it's like a new WoW. How does that make sense? How can it be WoW 2.0 if it's nothing like WoW? Wouldn't that make it . . . Not WoW 2.0? It would be Wildstar 1.0.
There's no shame in Wildstar being similar to WoW (and no, not just the visuals). "Clone" doesn't mean "literal copy" if that were the case, then there's never been a WoW clone. To pretend otherwise is to be disingenuous. When someone says "WoW clone" they mean that it resembles the basic building blocks of WoW. And Wildstar does.
The problem rests in the fact that the last 5 (maybe more) years have been spent demonizing and hating on WoW, therefore turning any comparison into a negative. That's unfair both to WoW and to the game being compared.
Wildstar is a very good game and has many robust and entertaining features, it stands on its own; but it's still a WoW clone. If you like it, then play it and enjoy. If you don't like it, then don't play it and go find something else to do.
Wildstar left a bitter taste in my mouth after playing the weekend beta.
I didn't feel attached to the lore or storyline and the zones felt like I was running through a bland palette of pastel colored smooth stone.
It's a bit too cartoony for my personal taste and I dislike the idea of exploring "planets" as I feel this is just a way for developers to create whatever content they want with whatever goofy flavouring they feel they want to present.
Bottomline, I didn't feel attached to the world, just another quest grinding, button-mashing MMO with features that have been used before.
I'll pass
This should kind of be /thread imo.
I totally agree that it is a wow clone and that's only bad if you don't like WoW. WoW clone has only become a derogatory term because enough people are tired of WoW clones. It's the term that comes to my mind when I play a game and I run into some of those iconic features that are most prevalent in themeparks, popularized by WoW. The term exists for a reason: so that people know what they're getting into.
I've seen this argument before, some 20 years ago. Shortly after Doom came out, there were a number of games that players and press called "Doom Clones". The term died out over time, replaced with "first-person shooter", although it did take some ten years or more for attitudes to change.
The arguments for calling something a clone were stupid then, and they're equally myopic now. "Themepark MMO" works, people understand what it means and what they're getting, and it's much less emotive and inaccurate. But hey, if your sole goal is to stir the pot, carry on...
Currently playing: WildStar, Guild Wars 2, EVE Online, Vain Glory.
The point of this is, WoW has more content than any new game can hope to compete with. I don't see much new with WS that would make me drop my WoW sub. It just seems like it's trying to out WoW WoW.
The path system and how you interact/alter your environment and the gw2/tera mix combat surely sets it apart from the game that influenced it.
But at the end of the day, it is another themepark with raid treadmill, which I find is an insult to the gamers. Until the day one company with balls takes the risk and brings back the risk of death and your successes and failures actually affecting the world you are in (ala shadowbane) these are what we will get. Excitements that will last for a few weeks and then mindlessly playing it for a few months, then jumping on the bandwagon of next aaa themepark.
But the day will come..
WoW 2.0 in a sense of some of the devs who created wow 1.0 creating a new game from scratch and making changes at the core which in wow would be impossible to avoid alienation of longterm customers (9+ years?)
We can argue here arround whether some changes in wildstar are an improvement or make it worse but it's save to assume that the devs made those changes with the intention to improve and those who agree with those changes and see them as improvement call it rightly from their viewpoint as wow 2.0
Pi*1337/100 = 42
Calling it Classic WoW 2.0 doesnt make it a clone. Its an improvement over the original WoW formula, which in itself was an improvement over the EQ formula. If you feel it hasnt improved enough then thats a valid point, but id say that if it changed too much then it would be attracting a different crowd all together. Carbine knows the players it wants to have and is making a game for just that audience. If youre not part of the audience then hopefully other games will do you good.
Please take a look at my post on page 4. I'll summarize: You can't beat WoW by trying to be WoW.
WoW just has way to much content. Even WoW's graphics are being updated and are crisper and more detailed than WS.
If it's your game, by all means enjoy. I don't think it's right for others by pretending WS is something more than what it is, though.
They didn't get rid of 40 man raids because they were too hard and people complained, they got rid of them because they were a logistacle nightmare. Vanilla 40 man raids were the easiest raid encounters WoW has ever had from a fight mechanics standpoint. The most complex raid mechanics in Vanilla WoW were making sure healers dispelled debuffs, and ensure you were wearing a certain item so you wouldn't get 1 shot on certain fights.
I certainly hope WS's 40 mans are much more complex than Vanilla's, and if so, watch how so few people actually complete them. Then once that happens, watch how much time they spend developing more that only a tiny fraction of its playerbase can complete. Then watch how they make easier versions of them so more people can access and see the content, while leaving the hard stuff there for hardcores....see a pattern here?
I hope they are at least learning from previous lessons.
Well to be fair, thats over 9 years of content, no new game will cover that
WoW's current level 90 endgame raiding content, developed for and during its latest expansion pack, is currently sitting over 50 raid bosses deep. These arn't just regular filler push over raid bosses; these are some of the most polished, challenging, and complex raid encounters in the industry. I am pretty sure that is what he was mostly referring to, not accumulated obsolete stuff from over the years that folkes try to drag into the discussion to downplay its wealth of current endgame content.
Current WoW raids are far more complex than they were back in Vanilla.
Blizzard has stated exactly why they did away with the old raiding model, and it's very simple to understand:
Only a small percentage of players were able to participate, not because it was too difficult, but because of what doodphace said . . . logistics. Coordinating 40 people is a nightmare for raid leaders. And what is a terrible business decision? One that dedicates time, money, and manpower to creating content that 2-3% of your players will ever participate in. That's why they dropped it, because it was a waste of time to develop. Blizzard's goal, whether you agree with it or not, has always been to create a game that more and more of it's players can play.
Is... this supposed to be praise? WoW's systems and design have been outdated for a good 9-10 years now. If this is its spiritual successor, does that bring it up to being 7 years outdated?
WoW was never a very great game.
How many times are they releasing 2.0?
Seriously, people have called so many other mmo's WoW 2.0.
Sure wildstar has simulairities to WoW, but they are clearly 2 entirely different games with completely different mindsets.
I prefer quality over quantity. Alot of WoWs newer content is kind of hit or miss since all they do is steal ideas from newer games and tack them on to theirs. They are like a huge amusement park adding a bunch of new rides all the time. It doesn't mean they are fun, well built, or fit in with the rest of the park.
MMOs Played: FFXI,Age of Conan, Aion, Rift, SWTOR, TERA, TSW, GW2
Playing:None
Waiting For: Wildstar, The Repopulation, Archeage, TESO, Warhammer 40K:EC, EQN