No, it is not a zerg-fest. If you are watching streams or vids of zerg, that is what you will see. The large scale battles can be flashy with the siege equipment, fun to watch and intense, so it is no surprise that these vids are popular.
If you want to play and archer and stealth around solo picking people off, you can do that.
If you want to join a 5 man team and roam, do that.
If you want to join an all stealth ambush group, they are out there.
If you want to collect mats and craft in the pvp zone, do it.
If you want to run solo pvp quests, you can do that too.
I participated in all of the above scenarios and each one was fun, and each type of play style is viable and easy to get into.
Actually all of those examples are still zerg wins examples. If a larger group finds you in all those cases you listed, you're done.
Lol, come on Mike, you know I am talking about all things being equal. There's always cases where luck or skill are shift the balance. But In the vast majority of cases in the above list the bigger group wins. Let's not get into marginal situations.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
I had about three or four one to one fights whilst in Cyrodiil, but they are rare normally it 3-4 vs you or if your really unlucky you can find a enemy zerg all by yourself If you stay away from the keeps and do some of the pve content around the towns you can normally find smaller battles, but I fear even these pve areas will be camped by small groups or smaller guilds waiting in stealth ambush for the unwary...
No, it is not a zerg-fest. If you are watching streams or vids of zerg, that is what you will see. The large scale battles can be flashy with the siege equipment, fun to watch and intense, so it is no surprise that these vids are popular.
If you want to play and archer and stealth around solo picking people off, you can do that.
If you want to join a 5 man team and roam, do that.
If you want to join an all stealth ambush group, they are out there.
If you want to collect mats and craft in the pvp zone, do it.
If you want to run solo pvp quests, you can do that too.
I participated in all of the above scenarios and each one was fun, and each type of play style is viable and easy to get into.
Actually all of those examples are still zerg wins examples. If a larger group finds you in all those cases you listed, you're done.
Lol, come on Mike, you know I am talking about all things being equal. There's always cases where luck or skill are shift the balance. But In the vast majority of cases in the above list the bigger group wins. Let's not get into marginal situations.
As I've stated many times before, these massive pvp games will never cater to people who have these fantasies of being Gods, like Achilles and his dozen Mermen, taking out entire armies. People who expect developers to put in mechanics for small groups to take out massive groups are kidding themselves. It will never happen. The fact is, if you are in a group of 10 people facing off against 100 people in an open field, you are going to be slaughtered. As it should be. Now, if you're in a group about 1/3rd of the size of the enemy group and you use guerrilla tactics, that's a different story. And I think this game already offers people that option.
As far as I'm concerned, people who cry about large zergs taking out small groups is like people complaining about fire being too hot when you put your hand in it or snow being cold. It's the natural order of things.
As MikeB said, No. There are plenty of youtube videos out there that show small groups taking out stragglers.
So a smaller zerg?
Yeah. All the way down to zergs of one.
Ok, finished watching it and while it was a fun watch. I don't trust videos with a lot of cuts in them. They could be cutting out the parts where they lost.
It's like those man on the street videos where they ask the average Joe easy questions and if they answer right they cut them out of the final but if they answer wrong and look stupid they keep that footage so in the end it looks like everyone they asked is stupid. Here if all the losses are edited out, they look like a total badass, even though they may have only won 1 in 4 or less all you see are the wins.
Lol. That wasn't the point (and she/he did leave one death at the very end, btw.)
The point is that Cyrodiil is big enough to essentially be an open world PVP server all on its own. Where solo, small group or large group can all happen. You may have noticed that she was also camping a couple of quest givers and a Sky Shard location. There''s tons of PVE there as well.
Totally up to you what you want to do there. Don't like "zergs" and Keep sieges/defense with a couple of hundred? Don't do them.
Ahh, ok. Then it seems you have missed my point. I'm not talking about running away from zergs, I am talking about using terrain or a defensible position to turn the tables on the zerg.
Rock-paper-scissors. Big group beats medium group, medium group beats small group... wheres the full circle? What lets the small group turn the tables on the big group?
Defenses. Just like the bridge fight. Full circle.
Ah, ok. Maybe you should change the title of the thread then from "Is the PVP anything other than the zerg" to something more like what you mean...maybe "can you stop the zerg?" And yes, you can. But I have a feeling no matter how many videos we post to show you, there will always be a "yes, but"
I was going to post another video but it was the second one that MikeB posted.
Of course it takes a well coordinated small group to stop the zerg. Given 2 equally skilled and coordinated groups the larger group will win almost always...same as in real life. I bet you 301 Persians who really had their shit together could have smoked those 300 Spartans
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Originally posted by Silverune I had about three or four one to one fights whilst in Cyrodiil, but they are rare normally it 3-4 vs you or if your really unlucky you can find a enemy zerg all by yourself If you stay away from the keeps and do some of the pve content around the towns you can normally find smaller battles, but I fear even these pve areas will be camped by small groups or smaller guilds waiting in stealth ambush for the unwary...
Yea, I am still seeing this as the most likely case. Though the bridge fight does give me some hope.
It would be cool if scouts singles and small groups had some mechanic only open to them (as opposed to medium or bigger groups) that allowed them to lay traps that were only sprung if more than X amount of enemy were near. Or long range magical artillery that would only fall on groups of X players or larger, Then the single or small group could ambush zergs successfully and do substantial damage to them making them less attractive to most players.
Again breaking up the big groups. Guerrilla warfare, and not just the shoot and scoot kind.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
No, it is not a zerg-fest. If you are watching streams or vids of zerg, that is what you will see. The large scale battles can be flashy with the siege equipment, fun to watch and intense, so it is no surprise that these vids are popular.
If you want to play and archer and stealth around solo picking people off, you can do that.
If you want to join a 5 man team and roam, do that.
If you want to join an all stealth ambush group, they are out there.
If you want to collect mats and craft in the pvp zone, do it.
If you want to run solo pvp quests, you can do that too.
I participated in all of the above scenarios and each one was fun, and each type of play style is viable and easy to get into.
Actually all of those examples are still zerg wins examples. If a larger group finds you in all those cases you listed, you're done.
Lol, come on Mike, you know I am talking about all things being equal. There's always cases where luck or skill are shift the balance. But In the vast majority of cases in the above list the bigger group wins. Let's not get into marginal situations.
The point is whether or not the game design allows for it. I think that's what you're aiming for here, if you're trying to have a discussion on the level. Linking to the videos proves it does, which was my point. Things are rarely going to be equal in PvP, both in terms of group size and skill level, and there is little to nothing that can be done about that.
What can be done, however, is to effectively design a play space (and game rules to support that play space) that can give players seeking different activities a viable means of pursuing those activities. Cyrodiil's size, scope, geography, and breadth and placement of content all allow for this. ESO's combat mechanics are also clearly nuanced enough, as shown in the example I offered (and in other examples in this thread), to make player skill the ultimate determining factor in the outcome of a particular skirmish or battle, even if outnumbered. This has been proven out by many, many videos and streams shown of the game.
Small group roam, zerg, solo ganking, sitting in the corner of a public dungeon in Cyrodiil and shanking people who come by, whatever you want, it's all possible. As I've said previously, and Iselin echoed here, Cyrodiil is essentially its own PvP server in everything but name.
Don't believe us? Jump into the beta the next weekend it's up and see it with your own eyes.
As MikeB said, No. There are plenty of youtube videos out there that show small groups taking out stragglers.
So a smaller zerg?
Yeah. All the way down to zergs of one.
Ok, finished watching it and while it was a fun watch. I don't trust videos with a lot of cuts in them. They could be cutting out the parts where they lost.
It's like those man on the street videos where they ask the average Joe easy questions and if they answer right they cut them out of the final but if they answer wrong and look stupid they keep that footage so in the end it looks like everyone they asked is stupid. Here if all the losses are edited out, they look like a total badass, even though they may have only won 1 in 4 or less all you see are the wins.
Lol. That wasn't the point (and she/he did leave one death at the very end, btw.)
The point is that Cyrodiil is big enough to essentially be an open world PVP server all on its own. Where solo, small group or large group can all happen. You may have noticed that she was also camping a couple of quest givers and a Sky Shard location. There''s tons of PVE there as well.
Totally up to you what you want to do there. Don't like "zergs" and Keep sieges/defense with a couple of hundred? Don't do them.
Ahh, ok. Then it seems you have missed my point. I'm not talking about running away from zergs, I am talking about using terrain or a defensible position to turn the tables on the zerg.
Rock-paper-scissors. Big group beats medium group, medium group beats small group... wheres the full circle? What lets the small group turn the tables on the big group?
Defenses. Just like the bridge fight. Full circle.
Ah, ok. Maybe you should change the title of the thread then from "Is the PVP anything other than the zerg" to something more like what you mean...maybe "can you stop the zerg?" And yes, you can. But I have a feeling no matter how many videos we post to show you, there will always be a "yes, but"
I was going to post another video but it was the second one that MikeB posted.
Of course it takes a well coordinated small group to stop the zerg. Given 2 equally skilled and coordinated groups the larger group will win almost always...same as in real life. I bet you 301 Persians who really had their shit together could have smoked those 300 Spartans
Well, I'm not really worried about terminology. I never considered 'zerg to be a pejorative, its just the word i use for large groups. I don't take game design theory personally. And if I remain on the skeptical side (the 'yes, but' side) it's because as much as I enjoyed the bridge fight video, the truth still seems to be (all things being equal Mike ) that numbers win.
I know that is the truth of things, but this isn't reality, it's a game and to remain fun you have to give folks a way to break up or turn the tables on being outnumbered. It can't always be available and it can't always be easy, but there must be another option sometimes available other than just run away. Even in reality warfare doesn't always go to the biggest numbers, just ask any Iraqi that was on the Highway 80 between Kuwait City and Baghdad. They were many, and the pilots were few but better tools made numbers worthless... less than worthless a hindrance.
At least ESO is taking a step in that direction with at least one chokepoints. I would just like to see more counters to massed attackers. That's all.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
In terms of Cryodill control, it will be zerg. Shizzles PvP it could end up being any number of options.
Not too different from EVE. When you want to take space, blob it up. The mechanics are in favor of the invasion force. Titans take space well, they suck at holding it. It sounds like the same issue here. Much like in EVE once you have space or here, control of Cryodill you need to be able to manipulate it with wolves from the two other factions always looking for easy targets and that translates to I-Win odds.
As MikeB said, No. There are plenty of youtube videos out there that show small groups taking out stragglers.
I call bullshit. You can have small group pvp in Gw2's WvW but its majorly tagged as a zergfest or a.k.a. ZergVsZergVsZerg. Its up to you to play the way you want BUT the majority simply enjoys the comfort and the false sense of security within a zerg. And once everyone is lvl 50 (I believe this is the game's max level? Correct me if I'm wrong.) and properly geared and saw most of the PvE content will turn to the PvP aspect of the game. An influx of inexperienced PvP players will join Cyrodill and they will join the larger group, logically.
So yeah cut the bullshit if you think this game won't turn into army vs army rather sooner than later. Once everyone figures what their role is, the zerg is inevitable.
Gw2 was like that at launch you know Just like Mike's video. It's the players that changed the game.
So yeah if you believe that there will be no zerg vs zerg fights at Cyrodill I have some bad news for you.
The only reasonable way to avoid that if is the game flops on the market and there are simply not enough people to play PvP xD Which most people believe will happen anyway. And if they have 10 minutes skill delays on top of subscription fee, I already pitty the guys
No, it is not a zerg-fest. If you are watching streams or vids of zerg, that is what you will see. The large scale battles can be flashy with the siege equipment, fun to watch and intense, so it is no surprise that these vids are popular.
If you want to play and archer and stealth around solo picking people off, you can do that.
If you want to join a 5 man team and roam, do that.
If you want to join an all stealth ambush group, they are out there.
If you want to collect mats and craft in the pvp zone, do it.
If you want to run solo pvp quests, you can do that too.
I participated in all of the above scenarios and each one was fun, and each type of play style is viable and easy to get into.
Actually all of those examples are still zerg wins examples. If a larger group finds you in all those cases you listed, you're done.
Lol, come on Mike, you know I am talking about all things being equal. There's always cases where luck or skill are shift the balance. But In the vast majority of cases in the above list the bigger group wins. Let's not get into marginal situations.
The point is whether or not the game design allows for it. I think that's what you're aiming for here, if you're trying to have a discussion on the level. Linking to the videos proves it does, which was my point. Things are rarely going to be equal in PvP, both in terms of group size and skill level, and there is little to nothing that can be done about that.
What can be done, however, is to effectively design a play space (and game rules to support that play space) that can give players seeking different activities a viable means of pursuing those activities. Cyrodiil's size, scope, geography, and breadth and placement of content all allow for this. ESO's combat mechanics are also clearly nuanced enough, as shown in the example I offered (and in other examples in this thread), to make player skill the ultimate determining factor in the outcome of a particular skirmish or battle, even if outnumbered. This has been proven out by many, many videos and streams shown of the game.
Small group roam, zerg, solo ganking, sitting in the corner of a public dungeon in Cyrodiil and shanking people who come by, whatever you want, it's all possible. As I've said previously, and Iselin echoed here, Cyrodiil is essentially its own PvP server in everything but name.
Don't believe us? Jump into the beta the next weekend it's up and see it with your own eyes.
Ok, not denying your point. And yes, until I see for myself I'm still a bit skeptical, but there is always room for zerg breaking game mechanics. look at orbital strikes in PS and PS2. They disrupt the big attack. They force the attacker to disperse which gives smaller outrider groups a better chance to harass the attackers effectively before they finally press the attack on the fixed position and/or defenders.
Granted, it's not completely effective in planetside, but the game lesson remains. If it can be executed better than Sony did, it would really cause player leaders to think hard about massing their troops for power and safety.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
yes everything is zerg, you and your one mate cant win vs 100 players, sorry .. not going to happen unless you somehow cheat a bazooka and summonable Godzilla into a game, laters.
yes everything is zerg, you and your one mate cant win vs 100 players, sorry .. not going to happen unless you somehow cheat a bazooka and summonable Godzilla into a game, laters.
The game has magic.
If an imagination is used one could have a number of mages form a ritual summoning an ice comet to rain down on your foes. Hell, it could be targeted by another group of mages doing a ritual of scrying that shows all the enemies on a top down map for a few seconds and lets them pick the biggest group to hit.
It's magic, nothing, not even airstrikes (dragon attacks) tanks (mounted cavalry) or artillery (ritual ice comets) are out of the realm of consideration, you just need imagination to craft it to fit withing the game setting.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
No, it is not a zerg-fest. If you are watching streams or vids of zerg, that is what you will see. The large scale battles can be flashy with the siege equipment, fun to watch and intense, so it is no surprise that these vids are popular.
If you want to play and archer and stealth around solo picking people off, you can do that.
If you want to join a 5 man team and roam, do that.
If you want to join an all stealth ambush group, they are out there.
If you want to collect mats and craft in the pvp zone, do it.
If you want to run solo pvp quests, you can do that too.
I participated in all of the above scenarios and each one was fun, and each type of play style is viable and easy to get into.
Actually all of those examples are still zerg wins examples. If a larger group finds you in all those cases you listed, you're done.
Lol, come on Mike, you know I am talking about all things being equal. There's always cases where luck or skill are shift the balance. But In the vast majority of cases in the above list the bigger group wins. Let's not get into marginal situations.
The point is whether or not the game design allows for it. I think that's what you're aiming for here, if you're trying to have a discussion on the level. Linking to the videos proves it does, which was my point. Things are rarely going to be equal in PvP, both in terms of group size and skill level, and there is little to nothing that can be done about that.
What can be done, however, is to effectively design a play space (and game rules to support that play space) that can give players seeking different activities a viable means of pursuing those activities. Cyrodiil's size, scope, geography, and breadth and placement of content all allow for this. ESO's combat mechanics are also clearly nuanced enough, as shown in the example I offered (and in other examples in this thread), to make player skill the ultimate determining factor in the outcome of a particular skirmish or battle, even if outnumbered. This has been proven out by many, many videos and streams shown of the game.
Small group roam, zerg, solo ganking, sitting in the corner of a public dungeon in Cyrodiil and shanking people who come by, whatever you want, it's all possible. As I've said previously, and Iselin echoed here, Cyrodiil is essentially its own PvP server in everything but name.
Don't believe us? Jump into the beta the next weekend it's up and see it with your own eyes.
Ok, not denying your point. And yes, until I see for myself I'm still a bit skeptical, but there is always room for zerg breaking game mechanics. look at orbital strikes in PS and PS2. They disrupt the big attack. They force the attacker to disperse which gives smaller outrider groups a better chance to harass the attackers effectively before they finally press the attack on the fixed position and/or defenders.
Granted, it's not completely effective in planetside, but the game lesson remains. If it can be executed better than Sony did, it would really cause player leaders to think hard about massing their troops for power and safety.
Speaking in general, there isn't actually anything wrong with large group vs. large group fights or that much of the time a smaller force can't win against them. Numbers matter, but they aren't the only determining factor, which is my point. The problem is that other activities (for smaller groups or solo) aren't usually viable, so people looking to contribute or do other things don't often have much to do and feel forced to join the zerg. ESO is different on that front and I find that particularly exciting. Feel free to read the article I linked above as well as my interview with Brian Wheeler for more details on that.
As for specifically breaking up a zerg, the lack of rez spells and Soul Gem system does a great job of that (aside from, you know, smart use of catapults!). You can bring a bunch of dudes into a battle, but a smarter, smaller force can use their defenses and better play to whittle you down and repel the attack if you just toss bodies at the fight. Again, this has been shown in many videos, and something I wrote about from my own experience in the aforementioned article. Heck, something like this happened in beta (as Wheeler discusses in our interview) and they call the event the 'Chalamo' (for the defense of Chalman Keep) and even have a lore book in game commemorating the battle:
"And lastly, some of the other tactics I’ve seen, speaking of small groups, what’s famous now in one of the original Cyrodiil betas was something called the Chalamo. Chalman Keep was one of the Ebonheart keeps where a small group of defenders held off wave after wave after wave of enemy attackers. So, a small group can not only take objectives, but also defend a keep against larger groups, too."
Ultimately, nothing is perfect, but the folks who worked on Cyrodiil have more experience than anyone in the genre in doing this sort of thing and the results of learning what worked and what didn't from previous experiences are, I feel, shown clearly in ESO.
DAOC and WAR (the 2 nearest games as far as RvR concept) both had zergs.
After a while, once the more organised guilds had done their leveling and gearing, it became far easier to find smaller fights. The people who want smaller fights will always manage to find the out of the way places that the zergs rarely go to.
However there will always be the zerg. It's up to you if you join it or not.
No, it is not a zerg-fest. If you are watching streams or vids of zerg, that is what you will see. The large scale battles can be flashy with the siege equipment, fun to watch and intense, so it is no surprise that these vids are popular.
If you want to play and archer and stealth around solo picking people off, you can do that.
If you want to join a 5 man team and roam, do that.
If you want to join an all stealth ambush group, they are out there.
If you want to collect mats and craft in the pvp zone, do it.
If you want to run solo pvp quests, you can do that too.
I participated in all of the above scenarios and each one was fun, and each type of play style is viable and easy to get into.
Actually all of those examples are still zerg wins examples. If a larger group finds you in all those cases you listed, you're done.
Lol, come on Mike, you know I am talking about all things being equal. There's always cases where luck or skill are shift the balance. But In the vast majority of cases in the above list the bigger group wins. Let's not get into marginal situations.
The point is whether or not the game design allows for it. I think that's what you're aiming for here, if you're trying to have a discussion on the level. Linking to the videos proves it does, which was my point. Things are rarely going to be equal in PvP, both in terms of group size and skill level, and there is little to nothing that can be done about that.
What can be done, however, is to effectively design a play space (and game rules to support that play space) that can give players seeking different activities a viable means of pursuing those activities. Cyrodiil's size, scope, geography, and breadth and placement of content all allow for this. ESO's combat mechanics are also clearly nuanced enough, as shown in the example I offered (and in other examples in this thread), to make player skill the ultimate determining factor in the outcome of a particular skirmish or battle, even if outnumbered. This has been proven out by many, many videos and streams shown of the game.
Small group roam, zerg, solo ganking, sitting in the corner of a public dungeon in Cyrodiil and shanking people who come by, whatever you want, it's all possible. As I've said previously, and Iselin echoed here, Cyrodiil is essentially its own PvP server in everything but name.
Don't believe us? Jump into the beta the next weekend it's up and see it with your own eyes.
Ok, not denying your point. And yes, until I see for myself I'm still a bit skeptical, but there is always room for zerg breaking game mechanics. look at orbital strikes in PS and PS2. They disrupt the big attack. They force the attacker to disperse which gives smaller outrider groups a better chance to harass the attackers effectively before they finally press the attack on the fixed position and/or defenders.
Granted, it's not completely effective in planetside, but the game lesson remains. If it can be executed better than Sony did, it would really cause player leaders to think hard about massing their troops for power and safety.
Speaking in general, there isn't actually anything wrong with large group vs. large group fights or that much of the time a smaller force can't win against them. Numbers matter, but they aren't the only determining factor, which is my point. The problem is that other activities (for smaller groups or solo) aren't usually viable, so people looking to contribute or do other things don't often have much to do and feel forced to join the zerg. ESO is different on that front and I find that particularly exciting. Feel free to read the article I linked above as well as my interview with Brian Wheeler for more details on that.
As for specifically breaking up a zerg, the lack of rez spells and Soul Gem system does a great job of that (aside from, you know, smart use of catapults!). You can bring a bunch of dudes into a battle, but a smarter, smaller force can use their defenses and better play to whittle you down and repel the attack if you just toss bodies at the fight. Again, this has been shown in many videos, and something I wrote about from my own experience in the aforementioned article. Heck, something like this happened in beta (as Wheeler discusses in our interview) and they call the event the 'Chalamo' (for the defense of Chalman Keep) and even have a lore book in game commemorating the battle:
"And lastly, some of the other tactics I’ve seen, speaking of small groups, what’s famous now in one of the original Cyrodiil betas was something called the Chalamo. Chalman Keep was one of the Ebonheart keeps where a small group of defenders held off wave after wave after wave of enemy attackers. So, a small group can not only take objectives, but also defend a keep against larger groups, too."
Ultimately, nothing is perfect, but the folks who worked on Cyrodiil have more experience than anyone in the genre in doing this sort of thing and the results of learning what worked and what didn't from previous experiences are, I feel, shown clearly in ESO.
Yes, please tell me how every self-respecting PvP player won't have shitton of soul gems in their inventory As an ex-Lineage 2 player I can assure you that at any given point in time I had 100 scrolls of ressurection and at least 20 blessed ones (which means instant res), regardless the fact that healers in L2 can actually ressurect dead players.
Or you know, how 10 arrow carts in Gw2 can't dissipate a zerg, yet you still have zergs. In the end its the numbers game. The zerg is usually led by a single commander/leader who usually is cunning and always come up with a tactic to regroup. Not bash his troops as idiots on the wall wave after wave
The videos you refer to are probably idiotic attackers or people who have no clue how the game works, which is to be expected in a BETA.
Now I'm not saying I haven't defended against a zerg with handful of players, there are actually videos of 4vs30 in Gw2 and stuff like that but ... more often than not the numbers win. Especially if the supply chains are cut and the defender reinforcements are far away.
P.S: On the Lineage 2 topic, when there was 7-signs quest (they removed that with Goddess of Destruction expansion), I was running with 100 blessed scrolls of ressurection too, just because they were relatively easy to obtain. Point of it being, if there is ressurection mechanic, the good players will always utilize it to the point it becomes as Gw2's resurrection system. ArenaNET just simplified the process.
P.S: Have you seen clear trebuchet siege in Gw2 just because the defenders are many and heavily fortified? There is nobody in hundreds of meters close to the keep's wall, while the trebs longshot the walls and doors down. If the defenders dare to pop out they will be having a meeting with the attacking zerg. The defenders eventually run out of supplies, it might take hours, yes but in the end they WILL fall if no reinforcements come Concluding by this, I imagine TESO to be a huge cat and mouse game 6-7 months into the game.
No, it is not a zerg-fest. If you are watching streams or vids of zerg, that is what you will see. The large scale battles can be flashy with the siege equipment, fun to watch and intense, so it is no surprise that these vids are popular.
If you want to play and archer and stealth around solo picking people off, you can do that.
If you want to join a 5 man team and roam, do that.
If you want to join an all stealth ambush group, they are out there.
If you want to collect mats and craft in the pvp zone, do it.
If you want to run solo pvp quests, you can do that too.
I participated in all of the above scenarios and each one was fun, and each type of play style is viable and easy to get into.
Actually all of those examples are still zerg wins examples. If a larger group finds you in all those cases you listed, you're done.
Lol, come on Mike, you know I am talking about all things being equal. There's always cases where luck or skill are shift the balance. But In the vast majority of cases in the above list the bigger group wins. Let's not get into marginal situations.
The point is whether or not the game design allows for it. I think that's what you're aiming for here, if you're trying to have a discussion on the level. Linking to the videos proves it does, which was my point. Things are rarely going to be equal in PvP, both in terms of group size and skill level, and there is little to nothing that can be done about that.
What can be done, however, is to effectively design a play space (and game rules to support that play space) that can give players seeking different activities a viable means of pursuing those activities. Cyrodiil's size, scope, geography, and breadth and placement of content all allow for this. ESO's combat mechanics are also clearly nuanced enough, as shown in the example I offered (and in other examples in this thread), to make player skill the ultimate determining factor in the outcome of a particular skirmish or battle, even if outnumbered. This has been proven out by many, many videos and streams shown of the game.
Small group roam, zerg, solo ganking, sitting in the corner of a public dungeon in Cyrodiil and shanking people who come by, whatever you want, it's all possible. As I've said previously, and Iselin echoed here, Cyrodiil is essentially its own PvP server in everything but name.
Don't believe us? Jump into the beta the next weekend it's up and see it with your own eyes.
Ok, not denying your point. And yes, until I see for myself I'm still a bit skeptical, but there is always room for zerg breaking game mechanics. look at orbital strikes in PS and PS2. They disrupt the big attack. They force the attacker to disperse which gives smaller outrider groups a better chance to harass the attackers effectively before they finally press the attack on the fixed position and/or defenders.
Granted, it's not completely effective in planetside, but the game lesson remains. If it can be executed better than Sony did, it would really cause player leaders to think hard about massing their troops for power and safety.
Speaking in general, there isn't actually anything wrong with large group vs. large group fights or that much of the time a smaller force can't win against them. Numbers matter, but they aren't the only determining factor, which is my point. The problem is that other activities (for smaller groups or solo) aren't usually viable, so people looking to contribute or do other things don't often have much to do and feel forced to join the zerg. ESO is different on that front and I find that particularly exciting. Feel free to read the article I linked above as well as my interview with Brian Wheeler for more details on that.
As for specifically breaking up a zerg, the lack of rez spells and Soul Gem system does a great job of that (aside from, you know, smart use of catapults!). You can bring a bunch of dudes into a battle, but a smarter, smaller force can use their defenses and better play to whittle you down and repel the attack if you just toss bodies at the fight. Again, this has been shown in many videos, and something I wrote about from my own experience in the aforementioned article. Heck, something like this happened in beta (as Wheeler discusses in our interview) and they call the event the 'Chalamo' (for the defense of Chalman Keep) and even have a lore book in game commemorating the battle:
"And lastly, some of the other tactics I’ve seen, speaking of small groups, what’s famous now in one of the original Cyrodiil betas was something called the Chalamo. Chalman Keep was one of the Ebonheart keeps where a small group of defenders held off wave after wave after wave of enemy attackers. So, a small group can not only take objectives, but also defend a keep against larger groups, too."
Ultimately, nothing is perfect, but the folks who worked on Cyrodiil have more experience than anyone in the genre in doing this sort of thing and the results of learning what worked and what didn't from previous experiences are, I feel, shown clearly in ESO.
Ok, I read the interview, and watched the Angry Joe video of him having fun (as opposed to his scathing first video), and you make good points. And despite the attitude that I can't be convinced or I am looking to troll, I hope you are right. I really want to like this game.
However, the sheer number of videos that I found on my own speak volumes versus the hand picked videos from an insider that has had special access and been part of smaller examples of play from the beginning. I can't tell you the number of cool beta memories I have from games like UO, DAoC, EQ, and others... but the truth is those were specific events and were so memorable because they weren't the usual occurrence. They were by definition, special.
So here's hoping the videos you showed me become the norm as people learn to play this particular PvP and all the videos I found just by randomly picking from youtube is just a symptom of most players being new and not knowing all the cool things you say are there to do.
I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt. Honestly I don't think a single beta weekend will give me quite the peek into the nuances of the game that a focused press beta and ongoing PTS beta have given you, but at least thanks to you and some of the unbiased and less offensive posters in this thread, I will keep an open mind.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
yes everything is zerg, you and your one mate cant win vs 100 players, sorry .. not going to happen unless you somehow cheat a bazooka and summonable Godzilla into a game, laters.
The game has magic.
If an imagination is used one could have a number of mages form a ritual summoning an ice comet to rain down on your foes. Hell, it could be targeted by another group of mages doing a ritual of scrying that shows all the enemies on a top down map for a few seconds and lets them pick the biggest group to hit.
It's magic, nothing, not even airstrikes (dragon attacks) tanks (mounted cavalry) or artillery (ritual ice comets) are out of the realm of consideration, you just need imagination to craft it to fit withing the game setting.
Ahhh ok..
You can summon Harry to cast some nice spells for your group
This is why I would love to have collision detection for PVP as well. Then a smaller group could hold choke points before reinforcements come etc. And then zergz would have a harder time going up against cordinated groups. They should at least test it to see how it would play out.
Can a small group set up a defense or pick an area and hold out to a much larger group.
Whether the defenders are 3 vs. 12 or 30 vs. 120... is there mechanics in place to make defense multiply your forces or will it always be numbers win?
The rules of war, numbers, strategy and skill. What do you expect, something unheard of?
Ofcourse the defending force has a slight advantage against the opposing force in a keep, but you will not "this is sparta" your way out of reality.
Reality? You might want to spend some time on Wikipedia and find out how much more than a 'slight advantage' a fortification gave medieval defenders. The post you just made is flat out wrong.
And for the record... They did 'This is Sparta' out of reality.... it's called the Battle of Thermopylae
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
You can play with a zerg - small group, or even venture out solo.
It's up to you.
Very large zergs (above 200 players) currently bring a huge lag spike with them - over 10seconds is what was reported - so bad that if you are a defender and the keep walls are down - the zerg will simply all roll in and due to lag being in seconds you won't have ANY chance of even get any attacks off before you die.
Now the zerg has the same latency issue - but due to larger numbers they will win as you can't use any defensive tactics in lag - larger numbers win.
It's a pretty serious issue that Zenimax will need to address somehow.
LOL , and not a week ago someone was boosting how ESO beats GW2 at WvW , and displays all characters and whatnot.
Now we know its all just hyped bull.
At least GW2 had time to fix the issue of players not displaying. Which they did in first time to eliminate above mentioned lag. Now GW2 has no lag and can display much more than 200 players.
But. As zerg goes. WvW PVP will always be about zerg. And objective flipping.
No WvW game never managed to eliminate that. From WAR to GW2 , and now ESO.
Originally posted by nerovipus32 I don't know why people are trying to convince the OP. All says is zerg zerg zerg even if he is given evidence to the contrary
It's because he wants a battlefield where the people fight 1vs1. Or he don't like to PvP at all.
Originally posted by nerovipus32 I don't know why people are trying to convince the OP. All says is zerg zerg zerg even if he is given evidence to the contrary
It's because he wants a battlefield where the people fight 1vs1. Or he don't like to PvP at all.
You guys can't be very confident in the success of this game if you get so worried over a simple question...
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
Comments
Lol, come on Mike, you know I am talking about all things being equal. There's always cases where luck or skill are shift the balance. But In the vast majority of cases in the above list the bigger group wins. Let's not get into marginal situations.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
As I've stated many times before, these massive pvp games will never cater to people who have these fantasies of being Gods, like Achilles and his dozen Mermen, taking out entire armies. People who expect developers to put in mechanics for small groups to take out massive groups are kidding themselves. It will never happen. The fact is, if you are in a group of 10 people facing off against 100 people in an open field, you are going to be slaughtered. As it should be. Now, if you're in a group about 1/3rd of the size of the enemy group and you use guerrilla tactics, that's a different story. And I think this game already offers people that option.
As far as I'm concerned, people who cry about large zergs taking out small groups is like people complaining about fire being too hot when you put your hand in it or snow being cold. It's the natural order of things.
Ah, ok. Maybe you should change the title of the thread then from "Is the PVP anything other than the zerg" to something more like what you mean...maybe "can you stop the zerg?" And yes, you can. But I have a feeling no matter how many videos we post to show you, there will always be a "yes, but"
I was going to post another video but it was the second one that MikeB posted.
Of course it takes a well coordinated small group to stop the zerg. Given 2 equally skilled and coordinated groups the larger group will win almost always...same as in real life. I bet you 301 Persians who really had their shit together could have smoked those 300 Spartans
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Yea, I am still seeing this as the most likely case. Though the bridge fight does give me some hope.
It would be cool if scouts singles and small groups had some mechanic only open to them (as opposed to medium or bigger groups) that allowed them to lay traps that were only sprung if more than X amount of enemy were near. Or long range magical artillery that would only fall on groups of X players or larger, Then the single or small group could ambush zergs successfully and do substantial damage to them making them less attractive to most players.
Again breaking up the big groups. Guerrilla warfare, and not just the shoot and scoot kind.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
The point is whether or not the game design allows for it. I think that's what you're aiming for here, if you're trying to have a discussion on the level. Linking to the videos proves it does, which was my point. Things are rarely going to be equal in PvP, both in terms of group size and skill level, and there is little to nothing that can be done about that.
What can be done, however, is to effectively design a play space (and game rules to support that play space) that can give players seeking different activities a viable means of pursuing those activities. Cyrodiil's size, scope, geography, and breadth and placement of content all allow for this. ESO's combat mechanics are also clearly nuanced enough, as shown in the example I offered (and in other examples in this thread), to make player skill the ultimate determining factor in the outcome of a particular skirmish or battle, even if outnumbered. This has been proven out by many, many videos and streams shown of the game.
Small group roam, zerg, solo ganking, sitting in the corner of a public dungeon in Cyrodiil and shanking people who come by, whatever you want, it's all possible. As I've said previously, and Iselin echoed here, Cyrodiil is essentially its own PvP server in everything but name.
Don't believe us? Jump into the beta the next weekend it's up and see it with your own eyes.
Well, I'm not really worried about terminology. I never considered 'zerg to be a pejorative, its just the word i use for large groups. I don't take game design theory personally. And if I remain on the skeptical side (the 'yes, but' side) it's because as much as I enjoyed the bridge fight video, the truth still seems to be (all things being equal Mike
) that numbers win.
I know that is the truth of things, but this isn't reality, it's a game and to remain fun you have to give folks a way to break up or turn the tables on being outnumbered. It can't always be available and it can't always be easy, but there must be another option sometimes available other than just run away. Even in reality warfare doesn't always go to the biggest numbers, just ask any Iraqi that was on the Highway 80 between Kuwait City and Baghdad. They were many, and the pilots were few but better tools made numbers worthless... less than worthless a hindrance.
At least ESO is taking a step in that direction with at least one chokepoints. I would just like to see more counters to massed attackers. That's all.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
In terms of Cryodill control, it will be zerg. Shizzles PvP it could end up being any number of options.
Not too different from EVE. When you want to take space, blob it up. The mechanics are in favor of the invasion force. Titans take space well, they suck at holding it. It sounds like the same issue here. Much like in EVE once you have space or here, control of Cryodill you need to be able to manipulate it with wolves from the two other factions always looking for easy targets and that translates to I-Win odds.
I call bullshit. You can have small group pvp in Gw2's WvW but its majorly tagged as a zergfest or a.k.a. ZergVsZergVsZerg. Its up to you to play the way you want BUT the majority simply enjoys the comfort and the false sense of security within a zerg. And once everyone is lvl 50 (I believe this is the game's max level? Correct me if I'm wrong.) and properly geared and saw most of the PvE content will turn to the PvP aspect of the game. An influx of inexperienced PvP players will join Cyrodill and they will join the larger group, logically.
So yeah cut the bullshit if you think this game won't turn into army vs army rather sooner than later. Once everyone figures what their role is, the zerg is inevitable.
Gw2 was like that at launch you know
Just like Mike's video. It's the players that changed the game.
So yeah if you believe that there will be no zerg vs zerg fights at Cyrodill I have some bad news for you.
The only reasonable way to avoid that if is the game flops on the market and there are simply not enough people to play PvP xD Which most people believe will happen anyway. And if they have 10 minutes skill delays on top of subscription fee, I already pitty the guys
Ok, not denying your point. And yes, until I see for myself I'm still a bit skeptical, but there is always room for zerg breaking game mechanics. look at orbital strikes in PS and PS2. They disrupt the big attack. They force the attacker to disperse which gives smaller outrider groups a better chance to harass the attackers effectively before they finally press the attack on the fixed position and/or defenders.
Granted, it's not completely effective in planetside, but the game lesson remains. If it can be executed better than Sony did, it would really cause player leaders to think hard about massing their troops for power and safety.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
@OP
obviously, You Just Want To believe That The Game Is A ZergFest So I Don't Think We Can Change Your Mind.
@OP
yes everything is zerg, you and your one mate cant win vs 100 players, sorry .. not going to happen unless you somehow cheat a bazooka and summonable Godzilla into a game, laters.
The game has magic.
If an imagination is used one could have a number of mages form a ritual summoning an ice comet to rain down on your foes. Hell, it could be targeted by another group of mages doing a ritual of scrying that shows all the enemies on a top down map for a few seconds and lets them pick the biggest group to hit.
It's magic, nothing, not even airstrikes (dragon attacks) tanks (mounted cavalry) or artillery (ritual ice comets) are out of the realm of consideration, you just need imagination to craft it to fit withing the game setting.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
Speaking in general, there isn't actually anything wrong with large group vs. large group fights or that much of the time a smaller force can't win against them. Numbers matter, but they aren't the only determining factor, which is my point. The problem is that other activities (for smaller groups or solo) aren't usually viable, so people looking to contribute or do other things don't often have much to do and feel forced to join the zerg. ESO is different on that front and I find that particularly exciting. Feel free to read the article I linked above as well as my interview with Brian Wheeler for more details on that.
As for specifically breaking up a zerg, the lack of rez spells and Soul Gem system does a great job of that (aside from, you know, smart use of catapults!). You can bring a bunch of dudes into a battle, but a smarter, smaller force can use their defenses and better play to whittle you down and repel the attack if you just toss bodies at the fight. Again, this has been shown in many videos, and something I wrote about from my own experience in the aforementioned article. Heck, something like this happened in beta (as Wheeler discusses in our interview) and they call the event the 'Chalamo' (for the defense of Chalman Keep) and even have a lore book in game commemorating the battle:
"And lastly, some of the other tactics I’ve seen, speaking of small groups, what’s famous now in one of the original Cyrodiil betas was something called the Chalamo. Chalman Keep was one of the Ebonheart keeps where a small group of defenders held off wave after wave after wave of enemy attackers. So, a small group can not only take objectives, but also defend a keep against larger groups, too."
Ultimately, nothing is perfect, but the folks who worked on Cyrodiil have more experience than anyone in the genre in doing this sort of thing and the results of learning what worked and what didn't from previous experiences are, I feel, shown clearly in ESO.
DAOC and WAR (the 2 nearest games as far as RvR concept) both had zergs.
After a while, once the more organised guilds had done their leveling and gearing, it became far easier to find smaller fights. The people who want smaller fights will always manage to find the out of the way places that the zergs rarely go to.
However there will always be the zerg. It's up to you if you join it or not.
Yes, please tell me how every self-respecting PvP player won't have shitton of soul gems in their inventory
As an ex-Lineage 2 player I can assure you that at any given point in time I had 100 scrolls of ressurection and at least 20 blessed ones (which means instant res), regardless the fact that healers in L2 can actually ressurect dead players.
Or you know, how 10 arrow carts in Gw2 can't dissipate a zerg, yet you still have zergs. In the end its the numbers game. The zerg is usually led by a single commander/leader who usually is cunning and always come up with a tactic to regroup. Not bash his troops as idiots on the wall wave after wave
The videos you refer to are probably idiotic attackers or people who have no clue how the game works, which is to be expected in a BETA.
Now I'm not saying I haven't defended against a zerg with handful of players, there are actually videos of 4vs30 in Gw2 and stuff like that but ... more often than not the numbers win. Especially if the supply chains are cut and the defender reinforcements are far away.
P.S: On the Lineage 2 topic, when there was 7-signs quest (they removed that with Goddess of Destruction expansion), I was running with 100 blessed scrolls of ressurection too, just because they were relatively easy to obtain. Point of it being, if there is ressurection mechanic, the good players will always utilize it to the point it becomes as Gw2's resurrection system. ArenaNET just simplified the process.
P.S: Have you seen clear trebuchet siege in Gw2 just because the defenders are many and heavily fortified? There is nobody in hundreds of meters close to the keep's wall, while the trebs longshot the walls and doors down. If the defenders dare to pop out they will be having a meeting with the attacking zerg. The defenders eventually run out of supplies, it might take hours, yes but in the end they WILL fall if no reinforcements come
Concluding by this, I imagine TESO to be a huge cat and mouse game 6-7 months into the game.
/popcorn
Ok, I read the interview, and watched the Angry Joe video of him having fun (as opposed to his scathing first video), and you make good points. And despite the attitude that I can't be convinced or I am looking to troll, I hope you are right. I really want to like this game.
However, the sheer number of videos that I found on my own speak volumes versus the hand picked videos from an insider that has had special access and been part of smaller examples of play from the beginning. I can't tell you the number of cool beta memories I have from games like UO, DAoC, EQ, and others... but the truth is those were specific events and were so memorable because they weren't the usual occurrence. They were by definition, special.
So here's hoping the videos you showed me become the norm as people learn to play this particular PvP and all the videos I found just by randomly picking from youtube is just a symptom of most players being new and not knowing all the cool things you say are there to do.
I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt. Honestly I don't think a single beta weekend will give me quite the peek into the nuances of the game that a focused press beta and ongoing PTS beta have given you, but at least thanks to you and some of the unbiased and less offensive posters in this thread, I will keep an open mind.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
Ahhh ok..
You can summon Harry to cast some nice spells for your group
The rules of war, numbers, strategy and skill. What do you expect, something unheard of?
Ofcourse the defending force has a slight advantage against the opposing force in a keep, but you will not "this is sparta" your way out of reality.
Reality? You might want to spend some time on Wikipedia and find out how much more than a 'slight advantage' a fortification gave medieval defenders. The post you just made is flat out wrong.
And for the record... They did 'This is Sparta' out of reality.... it's called the Battle of Thermopylae
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
LOL , and not a week ago someone was boosting how ESO beats GW2 at WvW , and displays all characters and whatnot.
Now we know its all just hyped bull.
At least GW2 had time to fix the issue of players not displaying. Which they did in first time to eliminate above mentioned lag. Now GW2 has no lag and can display much more than 200 players.
But. As zerg goes. WvW PVP will always be about zerg. And objective flipping.
No WvW game never managed to eliminate that. From WAR to GW2 , and now ESO.
Dont fool yourself.
It's because he wants a battlefield where the people fight 1vs1. Or he don't like to PvP at all.
You guys can't be very confident in the success of this game if you get so worried over a simple question...
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.