Originally posted by nerovipus32 I don't know why people are trying to convince the OP. All says is zerg zerg zerg even if he is given evidence to the contrary
It's because he wants a battlefield where the people fight 1vs1. Or he don't like to PvP at all.
You guys can't be very confident in the success of this game if you get so worried over a simple question...
Why should I care in the success of this game, If I just play to have some fun?
Originally posted by nerovipus32 I don't know why people are trying to convince the OP. All says is zerg zerg zerg even if he is given evidence to the contrary
It's because he wants a battlefield where the people fight 1vs1. Or he don't like to PvP at all.
You guys can't be very confident in the success of this game if you get so worried over a simple question...
Why should I care in the success of this game, If I just play to have some fun?
*facepalm*
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
Originally posted by nerovipus32 I don't know why people are trying to convince the OP. All says is zerg zerg zerg even if he is given evidence to the contrary
It's because he wants a battlefield where the people fight 1vs1. Or he don't like to PvP at all.
You guys can't be very confident in the success of this game if you get so worried over a simple question...
Why should I care in the success of this game, If I just play to have some fun?
*facepalm*
Oh sorry I've meant I am playing to believe in the success of this game, to make the company richer than they are, to advertise things in forums and I want everyone to play this game with me.
Only time will tell. Anyone providing absolute answers at this point is foolish, considering the game hasn't released yet.
Prior to GW2's launch, most people applauded the WvW zone designs and how both large and small groups would play a critical role in a server's success.
As time went on, most people realized that it was easier to simply follow a zerg than to venture out in a small group, so these days many people look at GW2 as a zerg fest. It wasn't bad game design, it was human nature that caused this.
My guess is that human nature will once again win over game design.
OP from my experience if you want to take objectives and feel like your actually doing something you'll be zerging. If you want to fight the odd person every 2 hours or so you can wonder around that huge map in stealth and maybe get 1 fight that leaves either of you running back a long distance. That is of course unless the person who died has a lot of land control then you can just skip all of that and teleport it all away.
Best bet bet for solo pvp seems to be hanging out in front of an attacking keeps respawn area and picking off people running by. Until of course they sweep by with a zerg and you have another huge dry spell since hanging around other keeps will yield you little to no action. That's the nature of the beast though. This map doesn't have various win conditions from what I'm seeing. Your sure as hell not going to see unique win conditions like early Alterac valley where horde summoned the Ice Golem and Alliance summon the Druid brotherhood to fight it out. Elder scrolls to me just looked like buffs, just like what the keeps and farm land is. Nothing about that reward made them feel very interactive or engaging.
Right now Cyrodil seems like just a place to earn global buffs with the win condition being emperor. I wish their was more motivation and dire consequences to stopping our enemy. Why aren't our enemies trying to poison our farms, barricading our trade routes, performing profane rituals at the center of Cyrodil that could send comets to bombard a random keep, or setting up magic jammers so that we can't use our leylines so effectively while teleporting from keep to keep.
"Do not speak to me of fate!" ~ A fairy tale for the Demon Lord
I didn't read all this mess but if the argument is you see most people zerging, I would have to say "duh?" How would it be a zerg if there were not a lot of people doing it? It is a tactic that favors large numbers.
That said, you do not HAVE to do that. A smarter and smaller group can hit targets away from the zerg wars, and other smaller, smarter groups can defend against them.
You also can ambush that stream of players trying to run back to the zerg and they usually prove to be inferior when caught away from the zerg. Only time you can't is the defenders of the keep who can still respawn there, or if ther is a camp, but guess what? You can go and take out that camp. You can usually pick off unsuspecting players focusing on the wall and their siege weapons without looking behind or to their side.
So; if you are too stupid to know to do anything other than zerg, then you are probably right. Its all zerg for you.
Originally posted by Velocinox Originally posted by VaporsOriginally posted by nerovipus32I don't know why people are trying to convince the OP. All says is zerg zerg zerg even if he is given evidence to the contrary
It's because he wants a battlefield where the people fight 1vs1. Or he don't like to PvP at all.You guys can't be very confident in the success of this game if you get so worried over a simple question...
Don't take this the wrong way, please, I honestly am not saying it to be offensive.
Why would you think they are not confident, they've given every piece of evidence and experience that they've had to demonstrate their confidence. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Since you have had no experience in game, pretty much all your declarations sound, well...hollow. You've had multiple people share actual in-game experiences. It is what it is, you've got your mind made me, and that's all good. Why on earth should or would anyone bother going beyond that?
I don't think I'd say anything different than anyone here, there is a zerg, a well-organized and well played group can stop or slow it, provided they choose their ground wisely. I'd fully expect that to change though when everyone is at 50 and geared. Throwing 100 bolstered level 10-12's against 20 well geared and coordinated level 50's is not really what I'd expect to see 60-90 days down the road.
From that point of view, it's a lot like most other RvR PvP, there is a place for small groups and individual PvP, and yes, a well played group will almost always beat an unorganized larger group, within reason. 10 guys beat 20-25 unorganized? Probably realistic, will the same 10 beat an equally geared 50? Nope, and really, would you expect them to?
Sure it has been answered. At work and didn't read this thread. AvA can be whatever you want it to be. This past weekend I spent most of my time roaming in a 4 man group with friends in TS fighting small groups of players near NPC cities and quest givers/turn ins and following and jumping other small groups inside caves. This is always the most fun. Other beta weekends when my friends were not on I zerged. Not as much fun, but still loads of fun.
Also when I was with my four man group or solo, I or we, got jumped by small groups of enemy players who were not following their zerg.
This is not GW2 WvW and I have WvW experience from closed beta, early release to about Dec when I lost interest.
Beta AvA will be different then live RvR. Right now it is mainly a bunch of pugging as we all don't have our full guilds or group of friends in game yet. No alliances have formed and I didn't want to take the time to join the public voice apps due to it being beta.
There are plenty of AvA vids showing small group roaming.
Huge groups will always form, it is very difficult to design gameplay that ensures they won't win. After all if you have a larger group you do tend to win. What the OP says is there but not anywhere near to the extent he is suggesting.
You can play with a zerg - small group, or even venture out solo.
It's up to you.
This pretty much sums it up. There were times where I went with the pack and zerged the map, and there were other times where me and a small party of 3-4 went around and took resource points. And then there were times where I just wanted to solo and found other enemies doing the same.
All had their fun parts and frustrating parts...so it's what you make of it.
Will there be zergs? Of course, during prime times when one faction is trying to completely dominate a map, it will happen. But there will also be small groups doing their own thing...even some doing PVE content and merely PVP'ing if/when it happens. The map is open to you to do what you want...
I didn't read all this mess but if the argument is you see most people zerging, I would have to say "duh?" How would it be a zerg if there were not a lot of people doing it? It is a tactic that favors large numbers.
That said, you do not HAVE to do that. A smarter and smaller group can hit targets away from the zerg wars, and other smaller, smarter groups can defend against them.
You also can ambush that stream of players trying to run back to the zerg and they usually prove to be inferior when caught away from the zerg. Only time you can't is the defenders of the keep who can still respawn there, or if ther is a camp, but guess what? You can go and take out that camp. You can usually pick off unsuspecting players focusing on the wall and their siege weapons without looking behind or to their side.
So; if you are too stupid to know to do anything other than zerg, then you are probably right. Its all zerg for you.
Why do you and people like you keep thinking that you are the smartest guys in the room? o.O
If you are too stupid to poke the beast too much it will turn around and bite you. Not to mention that your enemy probably has equally "smart" or "smarter" group. But yeah, keep up the wishful thinking mate...
And please tell me you were joking when you said that you can pick on unsuspecting players xD
Lets take Gw2 for example. Me and bunch of mah' people are bashing away the gate, but more often than not i get bored of bashing the door, so I take a look around. As soon as I see you can bet your house that I will signalize your presence to my folks and will go on and immobilize you and then bash your skulls into the ground. Not to mention that I've seen a zerg trolling such a small smart group with bunch of ballistas and arrow carts xD
I didn't read all this mess but if the argument is you see most people zerging, I would have to say "duh?" How would it be a zerg if there were not a lot of people doing it? It is a tactic that favors large numbers.
That said, you do not HAVE to do that. A smarter and smaller group can hit targets away from the zerg wars, and other smaller, smarter groups can defend against them.
You also can ambush that stream of players trying to run back to the zerg and they usually prove to be inferior when caught away from the zerg. Only time you can't is the defenders of the keep who can still respawn there, or if ther is a camp, but guess what? You can go and take out that camp. You can usually pick off unsuspecting players focusing on the wall and their siege weapons without looking behind or to their side.
So; if you are too stupid to know to do anything other than zerg, then you are probably right. Its all zerg for you.
Why do you and people like you keep thinking that you are the smartest guys in the room? o.O
Lets take Gw2 for example. Me and bunch of mah' people are bashing away the gate, but more often than not i get bored of bashing the door, so I take a look around. As soon as I see you can bet your house that I will signalize your presence to my folks and will go on and immobilize you and then bash your skulls into the ground. Not to mention that I've seen a zerg trolling such a small smart group with bunch of ballistas and arrow carts xD
Your turn, "smart guy".
Not in GW2. The guards will just cast group stability or Mez invis and run right by you into the keep. In ESO you have to buy the skill in the Alliance trees. I think under assault? Maybe support. So it will be a choice many won't want to waste a point on.
Tower zerg, open field zerg, scouting for their zerg...
Does that about sum it up?
Sell me.
Mostly zerg.
My suggestion to those who cry about zergs: Go back to the team sport PvP in WoW or the many MMOs like it. War is never fair and it's certainly never exactly equally divided between sides. You either learn to deal with being rolled by a zerg every once in awhile, or don't even bother playing at all and stick with the 99% of MMOs out there that offer the e-sports, watered down version of it.
To be fair, war is also not fun. However, the games set in war settings are all designed to have equal fighting forces on either side. Weird, huh?
We could make a variant of chess where each side gets a random number of pieces and types. It would mirror zerg numbers and player skill. However, the side that gets twice as many pieces as the other is probably going to win 99% of the time. That game wouldn't be particularly fun 99% of the time.
Tower zerg, open field zerg, scouting for their zerg...
Does that about sum it up?
Sell me.
Mostly zerg.
My suggestion to those who cry about zergs: Go back to the team sport PvP in WoW or the many MMOs like it. War is never fair and it's certainly never exactly equally divided between sides. You either learn to deal with being rolled by a zerg every once in awhile, or don't even bother playing at all and stick with the 99% of MMOs out there that offer the e-sports, watered down version of it.
To be fair, war is also not fun. However, the games set in war settings are all designed to have equal fighting forces on either side. Weird, huh?
We could make a variant of chess where each side gets a random number of pieces and types. It would mirror zerg numbers and player skill. However, the side that gets twice as many pieces as the other is probably going to win 99% of the time. That game wouldn't be particularly fun 99% of the time.
I sometimes wonder if the problem some people seem to have with zergs isn't just carrying over their PVE mentality into PVP. I mean, in PVE, many encounters are designed to have your group of 4 wipe-out 120 adds plus the boss... designed to make you feel like a super human special snow flake.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Tower zerg, open field zerg, scouting for their zerg...
Does that about sum it up?
Sell me.
Best PvP I've played in a long time. I say that as a long term Darkfall Online (DF1 not DF:UW) player who is used to full loot FFA PvP.
The siege warfare is done extremely well.
The PvP is not based on AOE spam like in GW2. There are actually very few AOEs in the game.
The fact that everyone can stealth means that you are never safe anywhere since you don't know who is around. It also makes small scale PvP very viable. A group of 8-10 organized players can massacre groups of 30 or more when they have the element of surprise.
The map is HUGE. The spacing between keeps is large enough so that if you kill an attacker, it will take them a good few minutes to respawn and get back to the fight.
Emporer is an awesome mechanic that gives you something to strive for.
Hopefully there's more when the game releases too!
It is the same as GW2 - don't kind yourself. GW2 is not zergy (initially it was because that is how people play - but coordinated wins the day every time). if you are coordinated - small groups can do much damage.
I wasn't impressed with ESO combat - no feedback and boring (key spam). If you like it - more power to ya. But, it is not the savior for MMO's that many say it is - it is just another game on rails.
It is the same as GW2 - don't kind yourself. GW2 is not zergy (initially it was because that is how people play - but coordinated wins the day every time). if you are coordinated - small groups can do much damage.
I wasn't impressed with ESO combat - no feedback and boring (key spam). If you like it - more power to ya. But, it is not the savior for MMO's that many say it is - it is just another game on rails.
That must have been fun for you: build your own straw man in your mind just so you can demolish it... it's sort of like solo forum posting.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
It is the same as GW2 - don't kind yourself. GW2 is not zergy (initially it was because that is how people play - but coordinated wins the day every time). if you are coordinated - small groups can do much damage.
I wasn't impressed with ESO combat - no feedback and boring (key spam). If you like it - more power to ya. But, it is not the savior for MMO's that many say it is - it is just another game on rails.
I played GW2 WvWvW quite extensively. Probably spent 100-200 hours in there.
In 1 day of AvA in ESO, I knew it was lightyears beyond the GW2 system.
Haven't had this much fun PvP'ing in a game in a longgggggggg time.
GW2 is extremely zergy. Yes small groups can break off and do their own thing...but that doesn't matter. As soon as you flip a control point the massive blob of players is there within 1 minute or less.
GW2 is entirely centered around AOEs. This leads to the massive particle effect blobs you see constantly. ESO has very few AOEs and focuses a lot more on Player vs. Player combat, not blob vs. blob combat which is what GW2 does.
Lets be blunt here, its very hard NOT to make pvp all about zerg. Considering its combat system, ESO really is pretty much limiting itself. Its not a very skill heavy game due to its limitations being the ESO styled combat. A zerg will typically trump in MMos, no matter what you try and do. Sure, some minimal strategy could be applied, but over-all numbers will typically win out in the end.
Don't get me wrong, I do know a smaller group can beat zergs at times (done it several times in both Aion and Rift playing the lesser population side managing to take down an unorganized zerg) though its typically about the zerg group being a bunch of... lets be blunt... morons who don't remotely know what to do since they rely purely on it being a 'zerg' to win. ESO I just don't see it having that element being so heavily emphasized.
While I do feel it will pull off the whole Seige pvp thing much better then GW2 did, I feel it will turn out just as zergy.
It is the same as GW2 - don't kind yourself. GW2 is not zergy (initially it was because that is how people play - but coordinated wins the day every time). if you are coordinated - small groups can do much damage.
I wasn't impressed with ESO combat - no feedback and boring (key spam). If you like it - more power to ya. But, it is not the savior for MMO's that many say it is - it is just another game on rails.
I played GW2 WvWvW quite extensively. Probably spent 100-200 hours in there.
In 1 day of AvA in ESO, I knew it was lightyears beyond the GW2 system.
Haven't had this much fun PvP'ing in a game in a longgggggggg time.
GW2 is extremely zergy. Yes small groups can break off and do their own thing...but that doesn't matter. As soon as you flip a control point the massive blob of players is there within 1 minute or less.
GW2 is entirely centered around AOEs. This leads to the massive particle effect blobs you see constantly. ESO has very few AOEs and focuses a lot more on Player vs. Player combat, not blob vs. blob combat which is what GW2 does.
Agree GW2 WvW is lots of people in one tiny blob fighting lots of people in another tiny blob due to might / stability stacking and Mez bombing. If you Zerg in ESO and fight another Zerg the players are way more spread out . ESO Zerg fighting is way more Warhammmer and not even close to GW2. A small group in GW2 flipping anything will have a zerg on them in under 30 seconds.
Also ESO doesn't have seashell shields and candy cane hammers. I kid, I do like GW2.
Tower zerg, open field zerg, scouting for their zerg...
Does that about sum it up?
Sell me.
Best PvP I've played in a long time. I say that as a long term Darkfall Online (DF1 not DF:UW) player who is used to full loot FFA PvP.
The siege warfare is done extremely well.
The PvP is not based on AOE spam like in GW2. There are actually very few AOEs in the game.
The fact that everyone can stealth means that you are never safe anywhere since you don't know who is around. It also makes small scale PvP very viable. A group of 8-10 organized players can massacre groups of 30 or more when they have the element of surprise.
The map is HUGE. The spacing between keeps is large enough so that if you kill an attacker, it will take them a good few minutes to respawn and get back to the fight.
Emporer is an awesome mechanic that gives you something to strive for.
Hopefully there's more when the game releases too!
1) AoE spam is for noobs, no offense , combos however are for pros.
2) You seem to make TESO's stealth a good feature but somehow Gw2's perma stealth thieves are huge issue )
3) Sure, what about the shitton of soul gems that every self-respecting PvP play will be carrying with them?
4) It's pretty limited to the hardcore nolife min-maxers. 99% of the players will never get that.
5) Nope, what you see is what you get.
Just saw you wrote you've sunk some 200 hours in wvw and you think that somehow makes you a good WvW player...are you seriously stating this? o.O
Its funny watching all of you complaining about zergs bombing you within 30 seconds of flagging a keep/tower/camp/whatever ... it begs the question ... have you ever tried to flag more than 1 objective on the map, or you just throw your best at a single tower trying to smash its gates before the zerg gets to you? Let me tell you this, that is not a game's fault, it's your fault
When people compare the PVP to GW2 and say "like equals like" forecasting that they are going to be identical there are some factors not taken into account.
1. Guild Stores and Guilds only being able to claim one area at a time.
This gives incentive to hold property and unlike GW2, one guild cannot own all of the map at once so a leading force should splinter once economy matters. In weekend betas people aren't concerned with economic gain because their characters aren't permanent.
2. Larger map allows for devious activity.
Even a zerg can't be everywhere at once. Since the size of this map is larger than the size of the GW2 maps, there is more space for people to congregate to play sideline things. In LOTRO we organized public vent groups for people to do one on one planned fighting, I see no reason it won't happen here because the spacing encourages it. This would be uplifted by cross-faction guilding.
3. Crafting styles originating from a character or dropped
There's a chance you will get a crafting style drop for something you like but also not. With cross faction trading in a guild store you can get a style of crafted item easier than your could from your own home area where people have to find the style versus having it as a default.
"...When an individual player joins a guild, all of the characters on that player’s account will gain access to the guild regardless of their character's alliance."
I'm taking this to read their guild store too.
4. Names are visible
With names comes vendetta and history. In GW2 your enemy was invader #4567891. Instead in ESO you see who you are fighting by name. You will gain and lose enemies. There will be people you want to target in a crowd. Over time we will all have our nemesis and seek them out because of history. A person can't hide well even in a zerg when people are hell bent to focus target them. Just taking on the Emperor title will make you known for awhile and people will be frothing to be able to get you back once your skill line has been decreased and you are regular Joe again. Anyone who has been in a game with regular PVP and names knows some of the names around them and plenty of their enemies. There is a revenge system too for killing players who have killed a lot of people recently. There is also a leaderboard displaying who is near the top again reinforcing name recognition.
5. Ranking
Zergs will be full of the weak because zergs are their mainstay. As people level, they will start to congregate with like minds on their level and form stronger groups for point gains avoiding many of the fodder entrants who will only give them average rewards when there are bigger fish to fry. I'm sure a higher ranked player could get gains from tickling the zerg but if the incentive is there to seek out higher ranks, they may take that incentive to heart and in combination with name recognition there will be players to hunt as their rank increases.
"...There are 50 PvP ranks with 25 titles and grades. When players rank up, they're worth more Alliance Points to enemies who manage to get a kill, but they won't earn less for killing lower-ranked players. They'll get more Alliance Points for killing higher-ranked characters."
You should really play some Gw2 WvW before expressing your opinion, mainly looking at your point one It's the same in Gw2.
Larger maps also impose the "ghost town" syndrome, also having to repair whats broken doesn't sound like all that much fun since you might get attacked before you manage to fix the keep you just earned...ouch.
I'm not really fond of RNG or gear treadmill like your point three, but I suppose thats more of a "per person" opinion.
I'm not sure that visible names are a good thing, mainly because of 13 year old keyboard warriors that will spam shit every time they get killed. It just adds up for nasty chat. There's a reason for the names in Gw2 to be like that, also the chat to be server locked, not global.
Gw2's WvW rank titles do show how strong a particular player might be, again, you should actually play Gw2 before expressing opinion about it. They are also automatic, so you can't hide that. People get a general idea of how strong you might be.
Originally posted by nerovipus32 I don't know why people are trying to convince the OP. All he says is zerg zerg zerg even if he is given evidence to the contrary
The entire issue here revolves around the fact that the OP has not even played the game.
SOE changes name to Daybreak games, cause dey break games.
Comments
Why should I care in the success of this game, If I just play to have some fun?
*facepalm*
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
Oh sorry I've meant I am playing to believe in the success of this game, to make the company richer than they are, to advertise things in forums and I want everyone to play this game with me.
not
Only time will tell. Anyone providing absolute answers at this point is foolish, considering the game hasn't released yet.
Prior to GW2's launch, most people applauded the WvW zone designs and how both large and small groups would play a critical role in a server's success.
As time went on, most people realized that it was easier to simply follow a zerg than to venture out in a small group, so these days many people look at GW2 as a zerg fest. It wasn't bad game design, it was human nature that caused this.
My guess is that human nature will once again win over game design.
OP from my experience if you want to take objectives and feel like your actually doing something you'll be zerging. If you want to fight the odd person every 2 hours or so you can wonder around that huge map in stealth and maybe get 1 fight that leaves either of you running back a long distance. That is of course unless the person who died has a lot of land control then you can just skip all of that and teleport it all away.
Best bet bet for solo pvp seems to be hanging out in front of an attacking keeps respawn area and picking off people running by. Until of course they sweep by with a zerg and you have another huge dry spell since hanging around other keeps will yield you little to no action. That's the nature of the beast though. This map doesn't have various win conditions from what I'm seeing. Your sure as hell not going to see unique win conditions like early Alterac valley where horde summoned the Ice Golem and Alliance summon the Druid brotherhood to fight it out. Elder scrolls to me just looked like buffs, just like what the keeps and farm land is. Nothing about that reward made them feel very interactive or engaging.
Right now Cyrodil seems like just a place to earn global buffs with the win condition being emperor. I wish their was more motivation and dire consequences to stopping our enemy. Why aren't our enemies trying to poison our farms, barricading our trade routes, performing profane rituals at the center of Cyrodil that could send comets to bombard a random keep, or setting up magic jammers so that we can't use our leylines so effectively while teleporting from keep to keep.
"Do not speak to me of fate!" ~ A fairy tale for the Demon Lord
I didn't read all this mess but if the argument is you see most people zerging, I would have to say "duh?" How would it be a zerg if there were not a lot of people doing it? It is a tactic that favors large numbers.
That said, you do not HAVE to do that. A smarter and smaller group can hit targets away from the zerg wars, and other smaller, smarter groups can defend against them.
You also can ambush that stream of players trying to run back to the zerg and they usually prove to be inferior when caught away from the zerg. Only time you can't is the defenders of the keep who can still respawn there, or if ther is a camp, but guess what? You can go and take out that camp. You can usually pick off unsuspecting players focusing on the wall and their siege weapons without looking behind or to their side.
So; if you are too stupid to know to do anything other than zerg, then you are probably right. Its all zerg for you.
You guys can't be very confident in the success of this game if you get so worried over a simple question...
Don't take this the wrong way, please, I honestly am not saying it to be offensive.
Why would you think they are not confident, they've given every piece of evidence and experience that they've had to demonstrate their confidence. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Since you have had no experience in game, pretty much all your declarations sound, well...hollow. You've had multiple people share actual in-game experiences. It is what it is, you've got your mind made me, and that's all good. Why on earth should or would anyone bother going beyond that?
I don't think I'd say anything different than anyone here, there is a zerg, a well-organized and well played group can stop or slow it, provided they choose their ground wisely. I'd fully expect that to change though when everyone is at 50 and geared. Throwing 100 bolstered level 10-12's against 20 well geared and coordinated level 50's is not really what I'd expect to see 60-90 days down the road.
From that point of view, it's a lot like most other RvR PvP, there is a place for small groups and individual PvP, and yes, a well played group will almost always beat an unorganized larger group, within reason. 10 guys beat 20-25 unorganized? Probably realistic, will the same 10 beat an equally geared 50? Nope, and really, would you expect them to?
Sure it has been answered. At work and didn't read this thread. AvA can be whatever you want it to be. This past weekend I spent most of my time roaming in a 4 man group with friends in TS fighting small groups of players near NPC cities and quest givers/turn ins and following and jumping other small groups inside caves. This is always the most fun. Other beta weekends when my friends were not on I zerged. Not as much fun, but still loads of fun.
Also when I was with my four man group or solo, I or we, got jumped by small groups of enemy players who were not following their zerg.
This is not GW2 WvW and I have WvW experience from closed beta, early release to about Dec when I lost interest.
Beta AvA will be different then live RvR. Right now it is mainly a bunch of pugging as we all don't have our full guilds or group of friends in game yet. No alliances have formed and I didn't want to take the time to join the public voice apps due to it being beta.
There are plenty of AvA vids showing small group roaming.
This pretty much sums it up. There were times where I went with the pack and zerged the map, and there were other times where me and a small party of 3-4 went around and took resource points. And then there were times where I just wanted to solo and found other enemies doing the same.
All had their fun parts and frustrating parts...so it's what you make of it.
Will there be zergs? Of course, during prime times when one faction is trying to completely dominate a map, it will happen. But there will also be small groups doing their own thing...even some doing PVE content and merely PVP'ing if/when it happens. The map is open to you to do what you want...
Why do you and people like you keep thinking that you are the smartest guys in the room? o.O
If you are too stupid to poke the beast too much it will turn around and bite you. Not to mention that your enemy probably has equally "smart" or "smarter" group. But yeah, keep up the wishful thinking mate...
And please tell me you were joking when you said that you can pick on unsuspecting players xD
Lets take Gw2 for example. Me and bunch of mah' people are bashing away the gate, but more often than not i get bored of bashing the door, so I take a look around. As soon as I see you can bet your house that I will signalize your presence to my folks and will go on and immobilize you and then bash your skulls into the ground. Not to mention that I've seen a zerg trolling such a small smart group with bunch of ballistas and arrow carts xD
Your turn, "smart guy".
Not in GW2. The guards will just cast group stability or Mez invis and run right by you into the keep. In ESO you have to buy the skill in the Alliance trees. I think under assault? Maybe support. So it will be a choice many won't want to waste a point on.
To be fair, war is also not fun. However, the games set in war settings are all designed to have equal fighting forces on either side. Weird, huh?
We could make a variant of chess where each side gets a random number of pieces and types. It would mirror zerg numbers and player skill. However, the side that gets twice as many pieces as the other is probably going to win 99% of the time. That game wouldn't be particularly fun 99% of the time.
I sometimes wonder if the problem some people seem to have with zergs isn't just carrying over their PVE mentality into PVP. I mean, in PVE, many encounters are designed to have your group of 4 wipe-out 120 adds plus the boss... designed to make you feel like a super human special snow flake.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Best PvP I've played in a long time. I say that as a long term Darkfall Online (DF1 not DF:UW) player who is used to full loot FFA PvP.
The siege warfare is done extremely well.
The PvP is not based on AOE spam like in GW2. There are actually very few AOEs in the game.
The fact that everyone can stealth means that you are never safe anywhere since you don't know who is around. It also makes small scale PvP very viable. A group of 8-10 organized players can massacre groups of 30 or more when they have the element of surprise.
The map is HUGE. The spacing between keeps is large enough so that if you kill an attacker, it will take them a good few minutes to respawn and get back to the fight.
Emporer is an awesome mechanic that gives you something to strive for.
Hopefully there's more when the game releases too!
It is the same as GW2 - don't kind yourself. GW2 is not zergy (initially it was because that is how people play - but coordinated wins the day every time). if you are coordinated - small groups can do much damage.
I wasn't impressed with ESO combat - no feedback and boring (key spam). If you like it - more power to ya. But, it is not the savior for MMO's that many say it is - it is just another game on rails.
That must have been fun for you: build your own straw man in your mind just so you can demolish it... it's sort of like solo forum posting.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I played GW2 WvWvW quite extensively. Probably spent 100-200 hours in there.
In 1 day of AvA in ESO, I knew it was lightyears beyond the GW2 system.
Haven't had this much fun PvP'ing in a game in a longgggggggg time.
GW2 is extremely zergy. Yes small groups can break off and do their own thing...but that doesn't matter. As soon as you flip a control point the massive blob of players is there within 1 minute or less.
GW2 is entirely centered around AOEs. This leads to the massive particle effect blobs you see constantly. ESO has very few AOEs and focuses a lot more on Player vs. Player combat, not blob vs. blob combat which is what GW2 does.
Lets be blunt here, its very hard NOT to make pvp all about zerg. Considering its combat system, ESO really is pretty much limiting itself. Its not a very skill heavy game due to its limitations being the ESO styled combat. A zerg will typically trump in MMos, no matter what you try and do. Sure, some minimal strategy could be applied, but over-all numbers will typically win out in the end.
Don't get me wrong, I do know a smaller group can beat zergs at times (done it several times in both Aion and Rift playing the lesser population side managing to take down an unorganized zerg) though its typically about the zerg group being a bunch of... lets be blunt... morons who don't remotely know what to do since they rely purely on it being a 'zerg' to win. ESO I just don't see it having that element being so heavily emphasized.
While I do feel it will pull off the whole Seige pvp thing much better then GW2 did, I feel it will turn out just as zergy.
Agree GW2 WvW is lots of people in one tiny blob fighting lots of people in another tiny blob due to might / stability stacking and Mez bombing. If you Zerg in ESO and fight another Zerg the players are way more spread out . ESO Zerg fighting is way more Warhammmer and not even close to GW2. A small group in GW2 flipping anything will have a zerg on them in under 30 seconds.
Also ESO doesn't have seashell shields and candy cane hammers. I kid, I do like GW2.
1) AoE spam is for noobs, no offense
, combos however are for pros.
2) You seem to make TESO's stealth a good feature but somehow Gw2's perma stealth thieves are huge issue
)
3) Sure, what about the shitton of soul gems that every self-respecting PvP play will be carrying with them?
4) It's pretty limited to the hardcore nolife min-maxers. 99% of the players will never get that.
5) Nope, what you see is what you get.
Just saw you wrote you've sunk some 200 hours in wvw and you think that somehow makes you a good WvW player...are you seriously stating this? o.O
Its funny watching all of you complaining about zergs bombing you within 30 seconds of flagging a keep/tower/camp/whatever ... it begs the question ... have you ever tried to flag more than 1 objective on the map, or you just throw your best at a single tower trying to smash its gates before the zerg gets to you? Let me tell you this, that is not a game's fault, it's your fault
You should really play some Gw2 WvW before expressing your opinion, mainly looking at your point one
It's the same in Gw2.
Larger maps also impose the "ghost town" syndrome, also having to repair whats broken doesn't sound like all that much fun since you might get attacked before you manage to fix the keep you just earned...ouch.
I'm not really fond of RNG or gear treadmill like your point three, but I suppose thats more of a "per person" opinion.
I'm not sure that visible names are a good thing, mainly because of 13 year old keyboard warriors that will spam shit every time they get killed. It just adds up for nasty chat. There's a reason for the names in Gw2 to be like that, also the chat to be server locked, not global.
Gw2's WvW rank titles do show how strong a particular player might be, again, you should actually play Gw2 before expressing opinion about it. They are also automatic, so you can't hide that. People get a general idea of how strong you might be.
The entire issue here revolves around the fact that the OP has not even played the game.