Originally posted by timidobserver I find it hilarious that people think that crafters should be able to make gear that is superior to end game raid gear. On what planet does that even make sense.
What "raids"?.......what "endgame raid gear"?
ESO is almost at release, has there been any mention of this, anyone showing off these "raids" or "raid gear"? and if there is such a thing, is it any different than GW2's open world zerg fests, cause those are obviously very challenging and would be worthy of giving out "superior" gear...amiright?
I don't think I've ever said that TESO should have an endgame similar to GW2. I've actually said quite the opposite in a number of threads, given that I think GW2 PVE and the LIving Story are absolutely horrible. However, regardless of what the various aspects of the endgame actually consist of, the best rewards should come from actually participating in it. The only exception I can see for crafting is some mat or recipe that can only be obtained from said endgame.
"Crafted gear of equal level and equal quality rating is always better than dropped gear from a numerical standpoint. Weapons do more damage, armor has more... armor. However, certain enchantments can only be found on drops. Crafters can always improve those items which have unique enchantments. Legendary items do not drop..."
The key word there is "from a numerical standpoint."
If you read on you see that certain enchantments will only be found on drops, not something that crafters can actually...craft.
A PTS tester chimed in on this topic and had this to say:
That’s exactly what they did: numerically they’re equal for their very base stat like armor amount or damage, but the unique effects are far more powerful on dropped loot. Your only real uses for crafting are food/potions, and upgrading dropped items (color quality), at endgame now. A legendary (orange) VR10 weapon has the exact same base damage whether it’s a purple that was upgraded from a drop, or crafted (and upgraded). The crafting set bonuses are ridiculously poor (in other words, you wouldn’t ever use most of them, and the only one I can think of that makes sense to use at all is a fill-in 3 piece for 5% extra crit chance) compared to the drop ones, and the drop ones mostly come from random bags you buy in PVP (with an extremely low drop chance) or open-world mobs randomly (Magicka Furnace is the best one in the game basically right now, 10% of your max magicka back when hit by a melee attack, 5 second internal cooldown).
Crafting went from being able to produce (with some effort) gear arguably superior to some of the drop sets thanks to the customizable traits (which you could then use with the worse set bonuses and still come out with a good piece of gear), to being stuff you wouldn’t use at all in your Veteran Ranks (which is where most people will spend the bulk of their playing time because everyone ends up there). For example, pre-nerf they had crafted item traits that could reduce your sprinting costs by 17-22% each at the top end which you could then stack enough to make sprinting just about free, or increase your weapon attack speed (heavy attack times etc, not abilities) by 50-60%, resulting in a large non-resource-intensive DPS potential. Now, the absolute top end weapons get about 8% speed, and the sprint cost reductions are 3-4%. Same thing across the board for all traits.
Whereas before you had a real choice thanks to the strength of traits and the fact that dropped set items only come with one trait type period per set (and some had no trait at all), now you just end up with an item crafted with negligible bonuses and no set bonus/virtually useless set bonus (“Regenerate resources 20% quicker during the daytime” for a 5-piece set is an example, which runs into the softcaps that you’ll generally already be at and is a low bonus already in terms of the actual end effect).
And don’t get me started on the addon massacre, which was primarily information most MMORPG’s put in their base UI such as hitpoint numbers and buff icons as options. Plus as I said they limited the XP you gain by grinding in a duo or higher an extreme amount making it basically unviable, as well as PVP-earned XP, leaving the only reasonably normal way to level being questing along the main quest path (before if you ran off to get side quests and killed stuff along the way, you’d level just as fast if not faster, now you’re best off following the rails of the main questlines in zones because otherwise they’re spaced out far from eachother) and public dungeons etc. giving very little even on the first completion now (before it was a good chunk of XP each time you finished one for the first time on a character). Vet XP as I mentioned numbers for before… yeah."
I really really hope they think about this before the game goes live, it sounded great the way it was before these changes.
crafting is a scourge on MMO's and i really truly wish they'd make a game that catered solely to crafters so they could all congregate there and sell crap to each other. Games that focus around crafting are always the worst.
When crafted gear is the best you ruin adventuring as it's pointless, when adventured gear is the best crafting is pointless. Actually i should say more pointless than normal.
99% of all MMO crafting systems have been stupid. Every single crafter has the same exact list of crap they can make with absolutely nothing to differentiate other than cost. There's only ever a very small handful of crafters on a server that make any money and it's pointless for the rest. You need maybe 5 crafters total for an entire server.
Until they can make a crafting system that allows unique items to be created that are actually different from everyone else, please just leave it out.
SWG galaxies is the only game i've ever seen where crafting wasn't pointless, the only problem is they focused on crafting in a star wars game where it had no place at the expense of adventuring, which was then terrible, hence why the game isn't around any longer.
I am not the biggest fan of the game but... Isn't it good that they tinker with such things in a beta phase instead of waiting for the game to go live?
They are probably trying to find a balance, and I think is better if the bulk of the work is done during beta than waiting for the game to go live.
The best thing that one can do if is in beta is to.. actually test those changes and then give a clear feedback to the devs so they can evaluate the changes and eventually adjust them.
Originally posted by timidobserver I find it hilarious that people think that crafters should be able to make gear that is superior to end game raid gear. On what planet does that even make sense.
What "raids"?.......what "endgame raid gear"?
ESO is almost at release, has there been any mention of this, anyone showing off these "raids" or "raid gear"? and if there is such a thing, is it any different than GW2's open world zerg fests, cause those are obviously very challenging and would be worthy of giving out "superior" gear...amiright?
Zenimax has been keeping Adventure Zones (ESOs raids) close to to their chest - nobody outside of Zenimax internal qa has ever seen these.
But they will exist in ESO.
It will be different than GW2 open world encounters because they won't be open world - they will be 20man raid instances - unless this changed at the last minute.
There's another thread around here quoting a developer saying we're about to get a lot of info on Adventure Zones. Early next week would be my guess.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
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“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
"Crafted gear of equal level and equal quality rating is always better than dropped gear from a numerical standpoint. Weapons do more damage, armor has more... armor. However, certain enchantments can only be found on drops. Crafters can always improve those items which have unique enchantments. Legendary items do not drop..."
If you read on you see that certain enchantments will only be found on drops, not something that crafters can actually...craft.
Maybe I'm just confused, but the way I read Paul Sage's comment, crafting was still very important to the game. The statement, "Legendary items do not drop..." means the best drops you will find will be epic at best. These items can then be improved to "Legendary" by crafters that have the right skills and materials.
Also, it seems that some item effects are only found on drops and crafters will be unable to learn them. So, seems like both groups of people should find some satisfaction in the design.
I don't read this as a negative thing, just developers trying to balance game issues prior to launch.
(My son speaking to his Japanese Grandmother) " Sorry Obaba, I don't speak Japanese, I only speak human."
I've never heard of a fantasy story where the heroes just go to the tanners after killing wolves for 10 hours to make epic equipment.
If you want to roleplay a crafter, I don't see why you'd rather do it in a game instead of in real life.
Let me ask you a question, in most fantasy novels where do you think those epic items came from? Do you not think somewhere down the line someone actually had to "craft" them? They don't usually just drop out of thin air.
The most famous items were at one point in time crafted, usually by some "legendary" crafter long ago.
Crafters wanted a chance to be "those" kind of crafters, to spend the time and energy to level up crafting while others were busy on PVE or PVP and actually be "useful" for once (like they were in say SWG).
They didn't want to spend allt he time and energy doing that only to find out that at end game the items they worked and trained to make are useless vs dropped items that people who didn't invest or work nearly as much as them can improve to legendary.
Everyone knows the "Lady in the Lake" brings you the best sword, or you have to pull it out of a stone.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Because he is a closed beta tester with reliable information track record so far - aka a solid source.
Is he a god - that is a really weak attempt to discredit anyone
What are you talking about? What reliable information?
You do not trust developers statement, but you trust some GoldenTiger, one of hundreds of closed beta testers.
It is just silly. You have no knowledge how reliable his information ever was except for comparison it with developers information. And now you intentionally ignore developers statement in favor of this nobody. Is he your brother?
I would say you have an agenda!
P.S. By the way, I trust in God! In god only. Don't you?
Yea best drops come from PVE not crafting, but your crafting person needs to research whats on that drop to be able to use the items or enchants on other gear... No?
Zenimax has been keeping Adventure Zones (ESOs raids) close to to their chest - nobody outside of Zenimax internal qa has ever seen these.
- they will be 20man raid instances - unless this changed at the last minute.
That's fine, it's the first I had ever head mention of them in any form, and I'm not accusing anyone of asking for GW2 style, it's just that most of the recent MMO's have gone that way, of having large group encounters that are easy enough for any player to do.
Originally posted by vectrexevo Yea best drops come from PVE not crafting, but your crafting person needs to research whats on that drop to be able to use the items or enchants on other gear... No?
There is no drops in crafting. But you are right in everything else.
At around 19:00 in this old interview is where Bill and Paul are talking about crafting, the first time we heard anything about crafting and he pretty much says you still need to get drops but you also need crafters to make the items the best.
Another response from Paul Sage in the same chat thread on TESO Elite when asked if crafted gear would be as good as PVE or dungeon gear. He states, "The top gear that drops will always be improvable by crafters."
No conflict here.
(My son speaking to his Japanese Grandmother) " Sorry Obaba, I don't speak Japanese, I only speak human."
Zenimax has been keeping Adventure Zones (ESOs raids) close to to their chest - nobody outside of Zenimax internal qa has ever seen these.
- they will be 20man raid instances - unless this changed at the last minute.
That's fine, it's the first I had ever head mention of them in any form, and I'm not accusing anyone of asking for GW2 style, it's just that most of the recent MMO's have gone that way, of having large group encounters that are easy enough for any player to do.
Ummm, name 3 MMOs that do that for an endgame? Sure, some games have world bosses, but nobody bases their entire endgame on them.
The fail overflow world boss zerg endgame crap that Anet came up with is pretty unique given how horrible it is. There aren't a lot of people copying that.
Because he is a closed beta tester with reliable information track record so far - aka a solid source.
Is he a god - that is a really weak attempt to discredit anyone
What are you talking about? What reliable information?
You do not trust developers statement, but you trust some GoldenTiger, one of hundreds of closed beta testers.
It is just silly. You have no knowledge how reliable his information ever was except for comparison it with developers information. And now you intentionally ignore developers statement in favor of this nobody. Is he your brother?
I would say you have an agenda!
P.S. By the way, I trust in God! In god only. Don't you?
There are other closed beta testers saying the same thing - this is NOT the only source.
My personal beliefs are irrelevant to this discussion.
Who cares about your source, its pretty much been public knowledge to anyone following the game. Good job uncovering stuff we already know.
You can't compare a shallow crafting system in ESO to one of the best crafting systems ever - SWG.
Let alone a themepark based game vs a sandboxy game.
C'mon, apples and oranges.
Sorry dude, just lost credibility when you state ESO crafting is shallow. By making that statement, I'm not sure you tried the crafting for any length of time. I admit I never played SWG, so I can't compare the two styles. However, I did ESO crafting for two full beta periods and was impressed with the level of complexity. You can't just sit down and craft whatever you decide to make without researching traits, tempers, materials, styles, etc. The crafting system in this game will take many many hours to master. Your criticism, in this instance, seems uninformed.
(My son speaking to his Japanese Grandmother) " Sorry Obaba, I don't speak Japanese, I only speak human."
You can't compare a shallow crafting system in ESO to one of the best crafting systems ever - SWG.
Let alone a themepark based game vs a sandboxy game.
C'mon, apples and oranges.
Sorry dude, just lost credibility when you state ESO crafting is shallow. By making that statement, I'm not sure you tried the crafting for any length of time. I admit I never played SWG, so I can't compare the two styles. However, I did ESO crafting for two full beta periods and was impressed with the level of complexity. You can't just sit down and craft whatever you decide to make without researching traits, tempers, materials, styles, etc. The crafting system in this game will take many many hours to master. Your criticism, in this instance, seems uninformed.
Just because it takes hours to research does not make the crafting deep and complex, just time consuming.
You play a Nord. You can't make other styles of equipment unless you find a motif that allows you to craft them. Then, you can't create something with a particular effect unless you research it first. Then, you have to have the temper to enhance the piece of equipment with that specific effect. Improving the piece to superior or better requires additional resources.
This is just the tip of the iceberg. As you increase in skill, you get access to higher tier components that allow you to make higher level gear. Nothing simple about this crafting system.
I reject your argument.
(My son speaking to his Japanese Grandmother) " Sorry Obaba, I don't speak Japanese, I only speak human."
At around 19:00 in this old interview is where Bill and Paul are talking about crafting, the first time we heard anything about crafting and he pretty much says you still need to get drops but you also need crafters to make the items the best.
It is not like you still need to get drops, but it is the only way to get traits by researching those drops.
To make the best gear in this game you need to get crafting to highest level. You need to get best gear from the drops (probably in adventure zones) with purpose of researching best traits. You need to make this gear of highest level possible with those traits. You need to improve that gear to legendary. You need to enchant this gear with best of your glyphs.
Another way is to just improve and enchant the gear you have gotten from the drops. In this case you will get just one gear, not an ability to craft that gear.
You can't compare a shallow crafting system in ESO to one of the best crafting systems ever - SWG.
Let alone a themepark based game vs a sandboxy game.
C'mon, apples and oranges.
Sorry dude, just lost credibility when you state ESO crafting is shallow. By making that statement, I'm not sure you tried the crafting for any length of time. I admit I never played SWG, so I can't compare the two styles. However, I did ESO crafting for two full beta periods and was impressed with the level of complexity. You can't just sit down and craft whatever you decide to make without researching traits, tempers, materials, styles, etc. The crafting system in this game will take many many hours to master. Your criticism, in this instance, seems uninformed.
Just because it takes hours to research does not make the crafting deep and complex, just time consuming.
Ding ding ding!
To Grym - I lost credibility but you admit you never played SWG hence you don't understand how shallow ESOs crafting is in comparison.
Hehe, dude its shallow, because 99% of all MMOs crafting is shallow in comparison, ESO is no different.
Get it?
SWG was such a great game they had to shut it down because people wouldn't stop playing it.
To Grym - I lost credibility but you admit you never played SWG hence you don't understand how shallow ESOs crafting is in comparison.
Hehe, dude its shallow, because 99% of all MMOs crafting is shallow in comparison, ESO is no different.
Get it?
I understand your perspective, however, I have played other games with different crafting systems: UO, EQ, DAOC, Vanguard, etc. Agreed that some MMOs crafting leaves much to be desired, EQ for instance. But UO and Vanguard were unique and definitely not boring in my opinion as someone who enjoys crafting. ESO crafting may indeed be inferior to SWG, I won't argue that because I have no frame of reference. However, ESO crafting is interesting and, yes, has it's own complexity that may be enjoyable to someone that actually wants to craft.
(My son speaking to his Japanese Grandmother) " Sorry Obaba, I don't speak Japanese, I only speak human."
I've never heard of a fantasy story where the heroes just go to the tanners after killing wolves for 10 hours to make epic equipment.
If you want to roleplay a crafter, I don't see why you'd rather do it in a game instead of in real life.
Let me ask you a question, in most fantasy novels where do you think those epic items came from? Do you not think somewhere down the line someone actually had to "craft" them? They don't usually just drop out of thin air.
The most famous items were at one point in time crafted, usually by some "legendary" crafter long ago.
Crafters wanted a chance to be "those" kind of crafters, to spend the time and energy to level up crafting while others were busy on PVE or PVP and actually be "useful" for once (like they were in say SWG).
They didn't want to spend allt he time and energy doing that only to find out that at end game the items they worked and trained to make are useless vs dropped items that people who didn't invest or work nearly as much as them can improve to legendary.
Everyone knows the "Lady in the Lake" brings you the best sword, or you have to pull it out of a stone.
Or one of the Gods from Mount Olympus likes you and just gives you neat toys to play with.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
You can't compare a shallow crafting system in ESO to one of the best crafting systems ever - SWG.
Let alone a themepark based game vs a sandboxy game.
C'mon, apples and oranges.
Sorry dude, just lost credibility when you state ESO crafting is shallow. By making that statement, I'm not sure you tried the crafting for any length of time. I admit I never played SWG, so I can't compare the two styles. However, I did ESO crafting for two full beta periods and was impressed with the level of complexity. You can't just sit down and craft whatever you decide to make without researching traits, tempers, materials, styles, etc. The crafting system in this game will take many many hours to master. Your criticism, in this instance, seems uninformed.
Just because it takes hours to research does not make the crafting deep and complex, just time consuming.
Ding ding ding!
To Grym - I lost credibility but you admit you never played SWG hence you don't understand how shallow ESOs crafting is in comparison.
Hehe, dude its shallow, because 99% of all MMOs crafting is shallow in comparison, ESO is no different.
Get it?
SWG was such a great game they had to shut it down because people wouldn't stop playing it.
When I saw them glorifying SWG I had the same thought lol. At no stage did that game ever do particularly well. This is why they kept revamping it over and over until they eventually just shut it down.
Comments
I don't think I've ever said that TESO should have an endgame similar to GW2. I've actually said quite the opposite in a number of threads, given that I think GW2 PVE and the LIving Story are absolutely horrible. However, regardless of what the various aspects of the endgame actually consist of, the best rewards should come from actually participating in it. The only exception I can see for crafting is some mat or recipe that can only be obtained from said endgame.
Why should I believe this guy (GoldenTiger)?
Is he a god?
Didn't I hear a lot of "strange things" before?
What has changed now?
crafting is a scourge on MMO's and i really truly wish they'd make a game that catered solely to crafters so they could all congregate there and sell crap to each other. Games that focus around crafting are always the worst.
When crafted gear is the best you ruin adventuring as it's pointless, when adventured gear is the best crafting is pointless. Actually i should say more pointless than normal.
99% of all MMO crafting systems have been stupid. Every single crafter has the same exact list of crap they can make with absolutely nothing to differentiate other than cost. There's only ever a very small handful of crafters on a server that make any money and it's pointless for the rest. You need maybe 5 crafters total for an entire server.
Until they can make a crafting system that allows unique items to be created that are actually different from everyone else, please just leave it out.
SWG galaxies is the only game i've ever seen where crafting wasn't pointless, the only problem is they focused on crafting in a star wars game where it had no place at the expense of adventuring, which was then terrible, hence why the game isn't around any longer.
I am not the biggest fan of the game but... Isn't it good that they tinker with such things in a beta phase instead of waiting for the game to go live?
They are probably trying to find a balance, and I think is better if the bulk of the work is done during beta than waiting for the game to go live.
The best thing that one can do if is in beta is to.. actually test those changes and then give a clear feedback to the devs so they can evaluate the changes and eventually adjust them.
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5120/7210363296_8357bee9de.jpg
There's another thread around here quoting a developer saying we're about to get a lot of info on Adventure Zones. Early next week would be my guess.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Maybe I'm just confused, but the way I read Paul Sage's comment, crafting was still very important to the game. The statement, "Legendary items do not drop..." means the best drops you will find will be epic at best. These items can then be improved to "Legendary" by crafters that have the right skills and materials.
Also, it seems that some item effects are only found on drops and crafters will be unable to learn them. So, seems like both groups of people should find some satisfaction in the design.
I don't read this as a negative thing, just developers trying to balance game issues prior to launch.
(My son speaking to his Japanese Grandmother) " Sorry Obaba, I don't speak Japanese, I only speak human."
Everyone knows the "Lady in the Lake" brings you the best sword, or you have to pull it out of a stone.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
What are you talking about? What reliable information?
You do not trust developers statement, but you trust some GoldenTiger, one of hundreds of closed beta testers.
It is just silly. You have no knowledge how reliable his information ever was except for comparison it with developers information. And now you intentionally ignore developers statement in favor of this nobody. Is he your brother?
I would say you have an agenda!
P.S. By the way, I trust in God! In god only. Don't you?
That's fine, it's the first I had ever head mention of them in any form, and I'm not accusing anyone of asking for GW2 style, it's just that most of the recent MMO's have gone that way, of having large group encounters that are easy enough for any player to do.
There is no drops in crafting. But you are right in everything else.
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/821/view/videos/play/2903/Interview-with-Creative-Director-Paul-Sage.html
At around 19:00 in this old interview is where Bill and Paul are talking about crafting, the first time we heard anything about crafting and he pretty much says you still need to get drops but you also need crafters to make the items the best.
Another response from Paul Sage in the same chat thread on TESO Elite when asked if crafted gear would be as good as PVE or dungeon gear. He states, "The top gear that drops will always be improvable by crafters."
No conflict here.
(My son speaking to his Japanese Grandmother) " Sorry Obaba, I don't speak Japanese, I only speak human."
Ummm, name 3 MMOs that do that for an endgame? Sure, some games have world bosses, but nobody bases their entire endgame on them.
The fail overflow world boss zerg endgame crap that Anet came up with is pretty unique given how horrible it is. There aren't a lot of people copying that.
Who cares about your source, its pretty much been public knowledge to anyone following the game. Good job uncovering stuff we already know.
Sorry dude, just lost credibility when you state ESO crafting is shallow. By making that statement, I'm not sure you tried the crafting for any length of time. I admit I never played SWG, so I can't compare the two styles. However, I did ESO crafting for two full beta periods and was impressed with the level of complexity. You can't just sit down and craft whatever you decide to make without researching traits, tempers, materials, styles, etc. The crafting system in this game will take many many hours to master. Your criticism, in this instance, seems uninformed.
(My son speaking to his Japanese Grandmother) " Sorry Obaba, I don't speak Japanese, I only speak human."
Just because it takes hours to research does not make the crafting deep and complex, just time consuming.
Allow me to explain;
You play a Nord. You can't make other styles of equipment unless you find a motif that allows you to craft them. Then, you can't create something with a particular effect unless you research it first. Then, you have to have the temper to enhance the piece of equipment with that specific effect. Improving the piece to superior or better requires additional resources.
This is just the tip of the iceberg. As you increase in skill, you get access to higher tier components that allow you to make higher level gear. Nothing simple about this crafting system.
I reject your argument.
(My son speaking to his Japanese Grandmother) " Sorry Obaba, I don't speak Japanese, I only speak human."
It is not like you still need to get drops, but it is the only way to get traits by researching those drops.
To make the best gear in this game you need to get crafting to highest level. You need to get best gear from the drops (probably in adventure zones) with purpose of researching best traits. You need to make this gear of highest level possible with those traits. You need to improve that gear to legendary. You need to enchant this gear with best of your glyphs.
Another way is to just improve and enchant the gear you have gotten from the drops. In this case you will get just one gear, not an ability to craft that gear.
SWG was such a great game they had to shut it down because people wouldn't stop playing it.
I understand your perspective, however, I have played other games with different crafting systems: UO, EQ, DAOC, Vanguard, etc. Agreed that some MMOs crafting leaves much to be desired, EQ for instance. But UO and Vanguard were unique and definitely not boring in my opinion as someone who enjoys crafting. ESO crafting may indeed be inferior to SWG, I won't argue that because I have no frame of reference. However, ESO crafting is interesting and, yes, has it's own complexity that may be enjoyable to someone that actually wants to craft.
(My son speaking to his Japanese Grandmother) " Sorry Obaba, I don't speak Japanese, I only speak human."
Or one of the Gods from Mount Olympus likes you and just gives you neat toys to play with.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
When I saw them glorifying SWG I had the same thought lol. At no stage did that game ever do particularly well. This is why they kept revamping it over and over until they eventually just shut it down.