Originally posted by Horusra Iselin....did they lie or have to openly make a change. Can you cancel what you have pre-ordered? If you can then it is not immoral. Did they say it would not, release the game and then tell you? That would be closer to immoral. The first is just a change in the game you do not like.
They didnt HAVE to make any change openly or otherwise to the model that has been confirmed and promised for over a year. That model categorically excluded cash shop purchases for in game items such as this.
You don't just decide to add a cash shop as a "change" 3 weeks before launch, it takes time and planning so they knew damn well a cash shop of this flavour was always part of the launch plan.
That means they lied.
The store includes account services, since you can purchase a mount via upgrading your account to imperial edition, buying the exact same mount separate is in fact an account service.
They didn't lie, you're just butthurt over something small and silly
This thread is the stupidest collection of crap I have read. Who cares. If the game lets you a horse from their member services site but you like the game and have fun playing it. Who give an f if they are selling a horse.
Pay the sub and enjoy the game or be butt hurt and don't. Just stfu and get out of the forums.
I will cancel my subscription and quit the game if I find that this crappy idea of a cash shop offers players significant advantages in the game. I agree with the person who said that this could potentially turn into a slippery slope. The way I figure it, at least I can get in a few months of fun gameplay before it all turns to crap.
Originally posted by epichokie This thread is the stupidest collection of crap I have read. Who cares. If the game lets you a horse from their member services site but you like the game and have fun playing it. Who give an f if they are selling a horse.
Pay the sub and enjoy the game or be butt hurt and don't. Just stfu and get out of the forums.
That would be correct if it wasn't for one thing:most people whining about this have either been trolling/hating the game since before NDA OR are 1-2 months old accounts...
block or report is the only way to go, I am afraid, because this isn't going to stop till the next MMO comes out and they move the target of their hate... sad but true
Cash shops and subscription model games should not mix in my opinion. What one person finds frivolous another person doesnt. I would like to believe that we can agree that most businesses will monetize anything and everything that the customer will allow. It started with so called "account services'. You must pay extra to transfer a character or rename a character. These are services that can be automated so there is no extra cost to the developer. You might say that they do not want people constantly changing servers or names which could easily be countered with a time based policy or not having the service at all. One character transfer a day seems reasonable. As far as renaming, I am against it but that is another topic entirely.
As for the frivolousness of goods, who is to say whats frivolous and what is not. Some say that if there is not an in game benefit then it is not frivolous. If you can buy a mount at level 1 and that mount adds movement speed, how is this frivolous? The faster you move the faster you level. The faster you move the faster you get to that dungeon and clear it or that dynamic event. Missing an event can cost you time and to some people, time matters.
Some people play RPGs for the character creation and design aspect of the game. So if a game offers costumes in the cash shop, these players must then pay extra to enjoy the aspect of the game that matters most to them. Costumes can also mean many things in an MMO be it simply clothing or go so far as to mask the weapons that you are wielding and the class that you are. In some mmorpgs costumes can be used to hide what class, build, or skill set that you use which can affect PvP.
Now lets be honest for a second, most people can bide a cash shop as long as it does not sell things that they want or need. When this cash shop sells things others want, we do not care because it is not affecting ME. I do not want a costume so it IS frivolous. Once that shop begins selling weapons that are equivalent to in game items people will backtrack awful fast. I can use your reasoning to justify it, a weapon that is equivalent to an item in game means that it can be attained in game so then its not pay to win just like that mount.
I have been consistently disappointed by Zenimax and Matt Firror. What they say...means nothing.They have no core values.What is real .......is what you see today.Tomorrows reality is what they decide it will be tomorrow.
Generating as much revenue as possible may be their one "core value".
Don't twist my words to say I'm anti-profit. .I'm not.But.....I would like to have a relationship with a company and I know what they stand for.That s why I will often buy a product that may cost a bit more........I know the engineering and history of the company.... putting out quality products.
How do you know the profections for profit did not tell them they HAD to? Possibly built the cash shop for the pay services most games have (name change, server change, character changes) and that is just a simple change to add a horse. I buy insurance but hope to never use it, maybe they built a cash shop for the same reason. Fact is you do not know. Many here moan about the game being f2p soon...that fear can be effecting them too.
DataEcho what are the lotto numbers next week? I see them selling piecemeal the stuff from the imperial edition. I do see them adding more items if subs drop off or people start demanding stuff outside the norm or demanding insta stuff like people in wow demanded paid 90's.
I know i may sound like a troll, but this defenatly looks like a testing of the water for the F2P/B2P convertion.
It's incredible that people say F2P/B2P is about nickel and dimme, but ESO, if they start putting XP boosts, bag space, unique cosmetic armors, etc, before they flip that Free switch, will be even more cash-grabby than other games.
I am only a fanbois of the company running their own game and for people on this forum to act like they own this game. As long as they are telling you before the final commitment they could switch to pay by the level and all items for pay. I have no illusions that these games are expensive to make, players are flighty, and games are businesses.
Does not mean I would buy it, but I do not think they immoral or unethical....just stupid.
A Palomaino Horse ....that's.....a Gamechanger.......totally.
All P2W now, it runs 999 Miles per hr and picks up loot for you and does not poop in Cyrodil as other Mounts do.
I'm so shocked.....and will never ever by MMO's again. Really.
It is a game changer. Its the 1st step in the wrong direction. First its a palomino horse. Whats next? the Light horse.
Im worried cause its the first step in the wrong direction. How many times now have Devs said something about their new game, and have failed to keep the promises made.
No game cash shop cause its a sub. Get a horse and a race in the CE...now. this.
Bingo! Finally someone who can see past their own nose enough to recognize the bigger picture... unlike the several others who are too busy making excuses and playing semantics.
The fact that they already have the means in place to support cash-shop type purchases (not something someone slapped together in a day for shits and giggles), is a pretty clear indication that horses is the beginning of this thing, not the end.
The fact that people can't see it (or pretend not to), or defend it is exactly why developers do it. Because there are people out there who will always prefer to buy their achievements with real money, rather than earn/obtain them by playing. They will always champion cash shops.
After all, Cash Shops are nothing more than sanctioned RMT (aka eBaying). Where do you think developers got the idea from in the first place? Seeing all the thousands of dollars people would spend for in-game currency, characters, items, etc... it was only a matter of time 'til developers got the idea to stop forbidding and banning for it, and instead get in on the action.
Ergo... Cash Shops.
The apologists will never see it that way, though... as long as it's nothing that affects them personally.
I know how annoying it can be to walk around the game, do actual quests to progress, take your time to enjoy a game.
People obviously forget the times when it was actually difficult to get a mount. Quit your bitchin' and just play the damn game. Why does it really matter whether you have a horse? Honest question.
Of course there is nothing "illegal" here, as the company legal team would have made sure of that.
There are clear issues with "PR spin" and "doublespeak" though. ZOS never said they wouldn't sell additional things over and above the subscription price. But they way described what they WOULD offer for sale was vague and in certain cases even conflicting. It's like they "re-invented" the meaning of some descriptions without telling anyone.. *cough* *cough*
It leaves a bad taste, because to many people (including me), it is going to look like a cynical manipulation of public sentiment.
ZOS: "We will never sell any armour in the cash shop that's painted red !"
Players: "Why are you selling red armour in the cash shop then ?"
ZOS: "No ! That's not painted red, you see, it's DYED red !"
Why is everyone so full of hate? You are throwing around with terms such as "cash shop" and completely miss that this negative term used to be bound to "pay-to-win" games where an in-game cash shop offered extraordinary beneficial services and upgrades ranging from exp boosts to incredibly strong items that made you the winner.
With this horse Zenimax simply offers players the possibility to buy a horse. A horse that definitely will be pretty much the same like the one in the Imperial Edition. So, if you never wanted to play the Imperial Race, now you can at least get the horse if you don't want to farm the gold for it. In the end you will have probably paid the same amount or a bit less than for the Imperial Edition.
Zenimax simply caters to the lazy people who cannot wait to get a horse. And yet some of you see the rise of ESO free-2-play. That's kind of funny.
This is pretty annoying TBH, people who wanted CE bonuses should have to buy the CE to get them, not be allowed to buy them piecemeal. Well, at least CE gets a white horse (for now).
A Palomaino Horse ....that's.....a Gamechanger.......totally.
All P2W now, it runs 999 Miles per hr and picks up loot for you and does not poop in Cyrodil as other Mounts do.
I'm so shocked.....and will never ever by MMO's again. Really.
It is a game changer. Its the 1st step in the wrong direction. First its a palomino horse. Whats next? the Light horse.
Im worried cause its the first step in the wrong direction. How many times now have Devs said something about their new game, and have failed to keep the promises made.
No game cash shop cause its a sub. Get a horse and a race in the CE...now. this.
Bingo! Finally someone who can see past their own nose enough to recognize the bigger picture... unlike the several others who are too busy making excuses and playing semantics.
The fact that they already have the means in place to support cash-shop type purchases (not something someone slapped together in a day for shits and giggles), is a pretty clear indication that horses is the beginning of this thing, not the end.
The fact that people can't see it (or pretend not to), or defend it is exactly why developers do it. Because there are people out there who will always prefer to buy their achievements with real money, rather than earn/obtain them by playing. They will always champion cash shops.
After all, Cash Shops are nothing more than sanctioned RMT (aka eBaying). Where do you think developers got the idea from in the first place? Seeing all the thousands of dollars people would spend for in-game currency, characters, items, etc... it was only a matter of time 'til developers got the idea to stop forbidding and banning for it, and instead get in on the action.
Ergo... Cash Shops.
The apologists will never see it that way, though... as long as it's nothing that affects them personally.
You know, I read somewhere once "My philosophy on MMORPGs: Leveling is what happens while you're playing the rest of the game. Don't worry about levels. Just play."
That seems like pretty good advice.
Let's face it, ESO has managed to piss off, possibly, the most people ever by any MMO release. *applause* At first I wasn't even going to play it because of the whole CE thing. In the end I said, "Screw it". I could really care less, I'm gong to play through the damn game like it was any other and, after a month, if I'm done, I'm done. I move on. Let them put whatever they want in their cash shop. As soon as it outweighs the value of their game content, that'll be the end of the game. Until that happens, just play.
Why is everyone so full of hate? You are throwing around with terms such as "cash shop" and completely miss that this negative term used to be bound to "pay-to-win" games where an in-game cash shop offered extraordinary beneficial services and upgrades ranging from exp boosts to incredibly strong items that made you the winner.
With this horse Zenimax simply offers players the possibility to buy a horse. A horse that definitely will be pretty much the same like the one in the Imperial Edition. So, if you never wanted to play the Imperial Race, now you can at least get the horse if you don't want to farm the gold for it. In the end you will have probably paid the same amount or a bit less than for the Imperial Edition.
Zenimax simply caters to the lazy people who cannot wait to get a horse. And yet some of you see the rise of ESO free-2-play. That's kind of funny.
Because we have all seen this before with every other themepark/cashshop game.
BELIEVE me things like XP boosts and all that other stuff will definitely be for sale very soon.
Just like all the other themepark/cashshop mmorpgs out there.
The further issue is that it has a sub fee to begin with. If all those items start to indeed get added bit by bit, why isn't the game B2P or F2P with a Freemium option. This is how i feel ESO should have launch with.
To me, the really annoying part is that many other devs aren't trying to pull this stuff. SE apologized for FF and remade the game from scratch, with no CS. Carbine's WS will not have it, in addition to a CREED system to buy game time (not effective for everyone, but still a nice touch).
One may not like those games, but they atleast are there. Plus, B2P games like GW2 and TSW have pretty fair cash shops last i checked them.
Why is everyone so full of hate? You are throwing around with terms such as "cash shop" and completely miss that this negative term used to be bound to "pay-to-win" games where an in-game cash shop offered extraordinary beneficial services and upgrades ranging from exp boosts to incredibly strong items that made you the winner.
With this horse Zenimax simply offers players the possibility to buy a horse. A horse that definitely will be pretty much the same like the one in the Imperial Edition. So, if you never wanted to play the Imperial Race, now you can at least get the horse if you don't want to farm the gold for it. In the end you will have probably paid the same amount or a bit less than for the Imperial Edition.
Zenimax simply caters to the lazy people who cannot wait to get a horse. And yet some of you see the rise of ESO free-2-play. That's kind of funny.
Because we have all seen this before with every other themepark/cashshop game.
BELIEVE me things like XP boosts and all that other stuff will definitely be for sale very soon.
Just like all the other themepark/cashshop mmorpgs out there.
The further issue is that it has a sub fee to begin with. If all those items start to indeed get added bit by bit, why isn't the game B2P or F2P with a Freemium option. This is how i feel ESO should have launch with.
To me, the really annoying part is that many other devs aren't trying to pull this stuff. SE apologized for FF and remade the game from scratch, with no CS. Carbine's WS will not have it, in addition to a CREED system to buy game time (not effective for everyone, but still a nice touch).
One may not like those games, but they atleast are there. Plus, B2P games like GW2 and TSW have pretty fair cash shops last i checked them.
TSW started out as P2P with the costume shop on day 1. Its only because the game was a massive flopped that they went B2P.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
Why is everyone so full of hate? You are throwing around with terms such as "cash shop" and completely miss that this negative term used to be bound to "pay-to-win" games where an in-game cash shop offered extraordinary beneficial services and upgrades ranging from exp boosts to incredibly strong items that made you the winner.
With this horse Zenimax simply offers players the possibility to buy a horse. A horse that definitely will be pretty much the same like the one in the Imperial Edition. So, if you never wanted to play the Imperial Race, now you can at least get the horse if you don't want to farm the gold for it. In the end you will have probably paid the same amount or a bit less than for the Imperial Edition.
Zenimax simply caters to the lazy people who cannot wait to get a horse. And yet some of you see the rise of ESO free-2-play. That's kind of funny.
Because we have all seen this before with every other themepark/cashshop game.
BELIEVE me things like XP boosts and all that other stuff will definitely be for sale very soon.
Just like all the other themepark/cashshop mmorpgs out there.
ORLY? Maybe you should save the cheerleader, fortune teller!
Have you ever considered the following things:
1) Zenimax store is not a traditional cash shop. A cash shop allows you to buy beneficial boni such as imba weapons, plusing weapons, safe enchant items, mitigation items, and so on. The simple exp boost would be the least harmful addition. You should try out Metin 2 or any other F2P Asia Grinder. This is where you find the root of cash shops and what items a shop needs to be a "cash shop". Nowadays people seem to think: "Uh you can spend money? CAAASH SHOP CAAASH SHOP! THE END IS NEEAR!" Ridicolous.
2) While TESO seems to be themeparkish you have tons of stuff to explore. Many PTS players have a lot more than 200+ hours of playtime and have not yet seen everything in the game. If you play at least 3 hours a day this makes roundabout 2 months. And we haven't even counted AVA in. AVA in TESO very much looks like DAoC and this is what your endgame obviously will be. A mix of group dungeons, adventure zones and a lot of AVA. I think you can easily play this game for years, if you allow the game to impress you.
By the time WoW did this, it was possible to obtain a mount with an hour of gameplay on a fresh account. It would of been completely different having a cash shop with a mount on release.
Also, the main obstacle for a mount in WoW isn't the mount itself, but the riding skill.
Cash shop mounts in wow don't have a riding skill.
I honestly could not care less. If someone want to buy their horse instead of grinding for it... Good for them.
As for the mythical slippery slope... It have yet to materialize in any game i have been in to contact with. Sure some games started at the bottom (looking at you Neverwinter) but beyond that i have not seen it.
Comments
The store includes account services, since you can purchase a mount via upgrading your account to imperial edition, buying the exact same mount separate is in fact an account service.
They didn't lie, you're just butthurt over something small and silly
Pay the sub and enjoy the game or be butt hurt and don't. Just stfu and get out of the forums.
That would be correct if it wasn't for one thing:most people whining about this have either been trolling/hating the game since before NDA OR are 1-2 months old accounts...
block or report is the only way to go, I am afraid, because this isn't going to stop till the next MMO comes out and they move the target of their hate... sad but true
There is no cash shop in the game!
Cash shops and subscription model games should not mix in my opinion. What one person finds frivolous another person doesnt. I would like to believe that we can agree that most businesses will monetize anything and everything that the customer will allow. It started with so called "account services'. You must pay extra to transfer a character or rename a character. These are services that can be automated so there is no extra cost to the developer. You might say that they do not want people constantly changing servers or names which could easily be countered with a time based policy or not having the service at all. One character transfer a day seems reasonable. As far as renaming, I am against it but that is another topic entirely.
As for the frivolousness of goods, who is to say whats frivolous and what is not. Some say that if there is not an in game benefit then it is not frivolous. If you can buy a mount at level 1 and that mount adds movement speed, how is this frivolous? The faster you move the faster you level. The faster you move the faster you get to that dungeon and clear it or that dynamic event. Missing an event can cost you time and to some people, time matters.
Some people play RPGs for the character creation and design aspect of the game. So if a game offers costumes in the cash shop, these players must then pay extra to enjoy the aspect of the game that matters most to them. Costumes can also mean many things in an MMO be it simply clothing or go so far as to mask the weapons that you are wielding and the class that you are. In some mmorpgs costumes can be used to hide what class, build, or skill set that you use which can affect PvP.
Now lets be honest for a second, most people can bide a cash shop as long as it does not sell things that they want or need. When this cash shop sells things others want, we do not care because it is not affecting ME. I do not want a costume so it IS frivolous. Once that shop begins selling weapons that are equivalent to in game items people will backtrack awful fast. I can use your reasoning to justify it, a weapon that is equivalent to an item in game means that it can be attained in game so then its not pay to win just like that mount.
I have been consistently disappointed by Zenimax and Matt Firror. What they say...means nothing.They have no core values.What is real .......is what you see today.Tomorrows reality is what they decide it will be tomorrow.
Generating as much revenue as possible may be their one "core value".
Don't twist my words to say I'm anti-profit. .I'm not.But.....I would like to have a relationship with a company and I know what they stand for.That s why I will often buy a product that may cost a bit more........I know the engineering and history of the company.... putting out quality products.
Trying to persuade a 2/14 or 3/14 account is like trying to empty the sea with a spoon:pointless
Why you think they have those accounts??
I know i may sound like a troll, but this defenatly looks like a testing of the water for the F2P/B2P convertion.
It's incredible that people say F2P/B2P is about nickel and dimme, but ESO, if they start putting XP boosts, bag space, unique cosmetic armors, etc, before they flip that Free switch, will be even more cash-grabby than other games.
Does not mean I would buy it, but I do not think they immoral or unethical....just stupid.
Bingo! Finally someone who can see past their own nose enough to recognize the bigger picture... unlike the several others who are too busy making excuses and playing semantics.
The fact that they already have the means in place to support cash-shop type purchases (not something someone slapped together in a day for shits and giggles), is a pretty clear indication that horses is the beginning of this thing, not the end.
The fact that people can't see it (or pretend not to), or defend it is exactly why developers do it. Because there are people out there who will always prefer to buy their achievements with real money, rather than earn/obtain them by playing. They will always champion cash shops.
After all, Cash Shops are nothing more than sanctioned RMT (aka eBaying). Where do you think developers got the idea from in the first place? Seeing all the thousands of dollars people would spend for in-game currency, characters, items, etc... it was only a matter of time 'til developers got the idea to stop forbidding and banning for it, and instead get in on the action.
Ergo... Cash Shops.
The apologists will never see it that way, though... as long as it's nothing that affects them personally.
I know how annoying it can be to walk around the game, do actual quests to progress, take your time to enjoy a game.
People obviously forget the times when it was actually difficult to get a mount. Quit your bitchin' and just play the damn game. Why does it really matter whether you have a horse? Honest question.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Of course there is nothing "illegal" here, as the company legal team would have made sure of that.
There are clear issues with "PR spin" and "doublespeak" though. ZOS never said they wouldn't sell additional things over and above the subscription price. But they way described what they WOULD offer for sale was vague and in certain cases even conflicting. It's like they "re-invented" the meaning of some descriptions without telling anyone.. *cough* *cough*
It leaves a bad taste, because to many people (including me), it is going to look like a cynical manipulation of public sentiment.
ZOS: "We will never sell any armour in the cash shop that's painted red !"
Players: "Why are you selling red armour in the cash shop then ?"
ZOS: "No ! That's not painted red, you see, it's DYED red !"
Why is everyone so full of hate? You are throwing around with terms such as "cash shop" and completely miss that this negative term used to be bound to "pay-to-win" games where an in-game cash shop offered extraordinary beneficial services and upgrades ranging from exp boosts to incredibly strong items that made you the winner.
With this horse Zenimax simply offers players the possibility to buy a horse. A horse that definitely will be pretty much the same like the one in the Imperial Edition. So, if you never wanted to play the Imperial Race, now you can at least get the horse if you don't want to farm the gold for it. In the end you will have probably paid the same amount or a bit less than for the Imperial Edition.
Zenimax simply caters to the lazy people who cannot wait to get a horse. And yet some of you see the rise of ESO free-2-play. That's kind of funny.
This is pretty annoying TBH, people who wanted CE bonuses should have to buy the CE to get them, not be allowed to buy them piecemeal. Well, at least CE gets a white horse (for now).
You know, I read somewhere once "My philosophy on MMORPGs: Leveling is what happens while you're playing the rest of the game. Don't worry about levels. Just play."
That seems like pretty good advice.
Let's face it, ESO has managed to piss off, possibly, the most people ever by any MMO release. *applause* At first I wasn't even going to play it because of the whole CE thing. In the end I said, "Screw it". I could really care less, I'm gong to play through the damn game like it was any other and, after a month, if I'm done, I'm done. I move on. Let them put whatever they want in their cash shop. As soon as it outweighs the value of their game content, that'll be the end of the game. Until that happens, just play.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
The further issue is that it has a sub fee to begin with. If all those items start to indeed get added bit by bit, why isn't the game B2P or F2P with a Freemium option. This is how i feel ESO should have launch with.
To me, the really annoying part is that many other devs aren't trying to pull this stuff. SE apologized for FF and remade the game from scratch, with no CS. Carbine's WS will not have it, in addition to a CREED system to buy game time (not effective for everyone, but still a nice touch).
One may not like those games, but they atleast are there. Plus, B2P games like GW2 and TSW have pretty fair cash shops last i checked them.
TSW started out as P2P with the costume shop on day 1. Its only because the game was a massive flopped that they went B2P.
ORLY? Maybe you should save the cheerleader, fortune teller!
Have you ever considered the following things:
1) Zenimax store is not a traditional cash shop. A cash shop allows you to buy beneficial boni such as imba weapons, plusing weapons, safe enchant items, mitigation items, and so on. The simple exp boost would be the least harmful addition. You should try out Metin 2 or any other F2P Asia Grinder. This is where you find the root of cash shops and what items a shop needs to be a "cash shop". Nowadays people seem to think: "Uh you can spend money? CAAASH SHOP CAAASH SHOP! THE END IS NEEAR!" Ridicolous.
2) While TESO seems to be themeparkish you have tons of stuff to explore. Many PTS players have a lot more than 200+ hours of playtime and have not yet seen everything in the game. If you play at least 3 hours a day this makes roundabout 2 months. And we haven't even counted AVA in. AVA in TESO very much looks like DAoC and this is what your endgame obviously will be. A mix of group dungeons, adventure zones and a lot of AVA. I think you can easily play this game for years, if you allow the game to impress you.
people crack me up. always gotta have something to rage about. this is just the flavor of the week issue to complain about, a horse lol
Because they dont understand it. They dont even ask questions.
To understand something and not fall into hate, well, obviously one has to start with asking questions.
Cash shop mounts in wow don't have a riding skill.
I honestly could not care less. If someone want to buy their horse instead of grinding for it... Good for them.
As for the mythical slippery slope... It have yet to materialize in any game i have been in to contact with. Sure some games started at the bottom (looking at you Neverwinter) but beyond that i have not seen it.
This have been a good conversation