It is easier to achieve success with your game (or any endeavor) if you pander to the people with low standards, because there are more of them and because it takes less effort and resources.
Because most people treat video games as an entertainment pass-time, and when they want to achieve, they would want to do it in the real world, rather than in video games?
It would have been interesting if it was real though. There would have been lots of negative posting. :-)
Too bad .. i don't like games that are either too hard, or too easy for me, and without some difficulty option, it is not likely that a game will hit my preference.
I guess i will have to pass on DS2. Well, it is not like i don't have a tons of other games to play now ... D3 RoS, tombraider, Thief, sniper elite v2 , witcher 2 ... i probably don't have time anywyay.
It is easier to achieve success with your game (or any endeavor) if you pander to the people with low standards, because there are more of them and because it takes less effort and resources.
If you know your audience doesn't care about feeling a sense of danger or accomplishment, then developing your game is going to be fairly simple in comparison to developing a game that requires more of your players.
You also don't have to deal with endless complaints about how difficult your game is. The masses just want a nice comfy game that essentially plays itself while they sit there watching TV or whatever.
This absurd concept of entertainment people attempt to sate themselves with these days is quite strange, but with the influx in popularity of more punishingly challenging games like Dark Souls or DayZ, I hope it's a sign that people are finally realizing how comparatively flat of an experience a typical MMO like WoW provides.
One of the greatest potential strengths of the MMORPG is to have death matter . If it doesn't matter if you die or not, then nothing in the game ends up having any weight to it. You can't accomplish something if there is no real opposition standing in your way.
Games, at their core, are about overcoming challenges, and if developers de-emphasize that too much then their games start to veer into a sort of observational automated process not unlike films or television.
I would not just to that conclusion so easily. The "old school" MMORPGs catered to some very low standards and we always hear complaints on these forums how the modern developers do not want to cater to that lowest common denominator.
It is easier to achieve success with your game (or any endeavor) if you pander to the people with low standards, because there are more of them and because it takes less effort and resources.
If you know your audience doesn't care about feeling a sense of danger or accomplishment, then developing your game is going to be fairly simple in comparison to developing a game that requires more of your players.
You also don't have to deal with endless complaints about how difficult your game is. The masses just want a nice comfy game that essentially plays itself while they sit there watching TV or whatever.
This absurd concept of entertainment people attempt to sate themselves with these days is quite strange, but with the influx in popularity of more punishingly challenging games like Dark Souls or DayZ, I hope it's a sign that people are finally realizing how comparatively flat of an experience a typical MMO like WoW provides.
One of the greatest potential strengths of the MMORPG is to have death matter . If it doesn't matter if you die or not, then nothing in the game ends up having any weight to it. You can't accomplish something if there is no real opposition standing in your way.
Games, at their core, are about overcoming challenges, and if developers de-emphasize that too much then their games start to veer into a sort of observational automated process not unlike films or television.
I would not just to that conclusion so easily. The "old school" MMORPGs catered to some very low standards and we always hear complaints on these forums how the modern developers do not want to cater to that lowest common denominator.
I'm pretty sure what he is saying is that the games now don't required much effort to progress. That is by intent and it draws a lot of people to play the game. It's like Dark Souls where only a certain group of players are attracted to playing because it requires a large time investment to figure out what works, where to go, and what to do. You aren't pointed anywhere by a GPS and told what needs to be done. I'm pretty sure that proves that most people just don't have the patience for figuring things out. Even with the internet at their finger tips to look things up. The other factor is that they concentrate so much on single player story that they have to strip out a lot of optional game mechanics. It's probably stuff that wouldn't appeal to most people anyway. That is not to say that playing MMOs in general has ever been good for you. I feel the Ultima Online and Evequest did offer some social interaction that couldn't be found anywhere else in a game. That was fairly invaluable to find other people who liked something like fantasy and wanted to share the experience.
. I'm pretty sure that proves that most people just don't have the patience for figuring things out. Even with the internet at their finger tips to look things up.
Yes, I am your proof point. Looking for things is easy and boring. I would much rather have fun & challenging combat.
Hence, the D3 adventure mode and rift is a great system for me. Click on where you want to go, and you start fighting right away towards your objective.
There is no quest text to read ... and no running to the dungeon .. just a simple "kill x" or "finish this event". Pure hack, slash and loot goodies.
. I'm pretty sure that proves that most people just don't have the patience for figuring things out. Even with the internet at their finger tips to look things up.
Yes, I am your proof point. Looking for things is easy and boring. I would much rather have fun & challenging combat.
Hence, the D3 adventure mode and rift is a great system for me. Click on where you want to go, and you start fighting right away towards your objective.
There is no quest text to read ... and no running to the dungeon .. just a simple "kill x" or "finish this event". Pure hack, slash and loot goodies.
Actually looking for things and finding a path where there is no direct path is very challenging for most. That's why they don't play the game. They play without some someone telling them where to go and what to do in order to progress.
Actually looking for things and finding a path where there is no direct path is very challenging for most. That's why they don't play the game. They play without some someone telling them where to go and what to do in order to progress.
well, it is not for me. It can't be more difficult than doing grid paper mapping back in the Might & Magic days. It is easy mode and tedious. Heck, worse case, just run through everywhere.
Not my idea of fun .. combat is 100x more challenging .. and more importantly .. more fun.
Note that i am talking about a ARPG, or a MMO.
If i want to playing a thinking man game, i go play puzzle adventure like those Shelock Holmes games (btw, they have some good puzzles .. now THAT is figuring things out .. not that tedious search the country side for a mob chore).
Actually looking for things and finding a path where there is no direct path is very challenging for most. That's why they don't play the game. They play without some someone telling them where to go and what to do in order to progress.
well, it is not for me. It can't be more difficult than doing grid paper mapping back in the Might & Magic days. It is easy mode and tedious. Heck, worse case, just run through everywhere.
Not my idea of fun .. combat is 100x more challenging .. and more importantly .. more fun.
Note that i am talking about a ARPG, or a MMO.
If i want to playing a thinking man game, i go play puzzle adventure like those Shelock Holmes games (btw, they have some good puzzles .. now THAT is figuring things out .. not that tedious search the country side for a mob chore).
Dark Souls isn't just search the countryside for a mob lol and neither was Everquest really. It was just experimentation and figuring out what worked and what didn't. Generally if a game is telling you where to go the combat can't be expected to be that challenging. I feel like Diablo 3 is a numbers game. There is only a certain point you can get to without certain equipment. Until that point it's about acquiring said equipment by playing through the same area over and over again. I guess it can be fun for some. I tried played through it a fair number of times, but felt it wasn't much fun after a while. Theoretically it felt like I could get the loot I needed on lower difficulty so there was little reason to play on a higher difficulty until getting said loot and once I get said loot the higher difficulty wouldn't really matter as much. The main problem is that I just didn't want to put in the time to grind mobs for loot. I'm sure there are many games puzzle games that are harder than Dark Souls. I won't argue that, but generally there is more to exploring in old MMOs and especially in Dark Souls then you make it out to be. You don't sound like you made much of an effort to play through it.
Dark Souls isn't just search the countryside for a mob lol and neither was Everquest really. It was just experimentation and figuring out what worked and what didn't. Generally if a game is telling you where to go the combat can't be expected to be that challenging. I feel like Diablo 3 is a numbers game.
EQ was way worse. Going to someplace is a chore, and all the spawns are static.
D3 is a numbers game .. you apparently have not played the game, nor look at the gorzillian youtube videos about different builds, and how to play them.
How is it a number game when, just for a wiz, i can tank, kite, cc, slow-time, duplicate myself, and a whole bunch of other stuff. And the mobs can wall you in, split poison, freeze you ... and do a bunch of other stuff to you.
And your general rule is pretty much wrong. D3 combat is known to be challenging .. and at no point you need to figure out where to do. Dishonored, Deus Ex, Witcher all have challenging combat (if you turn the difficulty high) and at no point you need to search for stuff blindly for a long time.
Looking for stuff is just easy-mode and boring ... and has nothing to do with combat challenge.
But what's the point in playing a MMO if I can't kill everything in sight non stop and reach end game in a few weeks so that I can complain that there isn't any content and then move onto the next game which is the same thing????
But what's the point in playing a MMO if I can't kill everything in sight non stop and reach end game in a few weeks so that I can complain that there isn't any content and then move onto the next game which is the same thing????
Dark Souls isn't just search the countryside for a mob lol and neither was Everquest really. It was just experimentation and figuring out what worked and what didn't. Generally if a game is telling you where to go the combat can't be expected to be that challenging. I feel like Diablo 3 is a numbers game.
EQ was way worse. Going to someplace is a chore, and all the spawns are static.
D3 is a numbers game .. you apparently have not played the game, nor look at the gorzillian youtube videos about different builds, and how to play them.
How is it a number game when, just for a wiz, i can tank, kite, cc, slow-time, duplicate myself, and a whole bunch of other stuff. And the mobs can wall you in, split poison, freeze you ... and do a bunch of other stuff to you.
And your general rule is pretty much wrong. D3 combat is known to be challenging .. and at no point you need to figure out where to do. Dishonored, Deus Ex, Witcher all have challenging combat (if you turn the difficulty high) and at no point you need to search for stuff blindly for a long time.
Looking for stuff is just easy-mode and boring ... and has nothing to do with combat challenge.
In EQ I might have had to spend a lot of time in one place, but there were a variety of different areas and mobs to camp for each level range. Since the leveling process was long I didn't have to worry to much about hitting max level and the gear grind. It was enough just to get to max level. In D3 you hit the endgame very quickly and there is nothing new. You have all your abilities at level 60 (which you get to fairly quickly) and then it's a loot grind or grind for marginal increases via paragon levels. In terms of variety Diablo 3 lets you do a lot of things, but I found that I didn't need to experiment much to find a build that worked even on the harder difficulties. I generally ended up on having 7 or 8 abilities, but I only really needed 2 or 3 most of the time. The others were just to for times when I needed something to protect myself. After this point it was just a matter of getting the right equipment to progress. There really wasn't anything new to do. Just repeat the same tactics over and over again in the same place with little reward other then loot. Not even new places to see.
In EQ I might have had to spend a lot of time in one place, but there were a variety of different areas and mobs to camp for each level range. Since the leveling process was long I didn't have to worry to much about hitting max level and the gear grind. It was enough just to get to max level. In D3 you hit the endgame very quickly and there is nothing new.
No .. in terms of variety .. EQ is way way worse. You got stuck in one place for a long time.
IN D3, if you use adventure to level, you are always fighting different mobs in different zones .. or even doing it in totally random dungeon. FAR FAR superior than the horrible monotonic EQ grind.
And what end-game? D3 has no such thing. Paragon levels are infinite. You never stop leveling up. You only stop learning new skills. And whether you are leveling up to learn skills, or for paragon level + loot .. the gameplay is the same randomized dungeon.
I think devs have made MMOs much easier to grind through because they low gamers today have very low attention spans and will quickly hop from game to game, I mean how many people today would stick with the long, long, long grinding hours required in Everquest? Not many, not when there's hundreds of other options to play.
Their is challenge in plenty of games they have just taken out the brutally dull (for some people) journey and the ridiculous punishments for dying which sometimes was out of your control, (looking at you 56.6k modem). The genre doesn't need new challenges or old challenges it needs a fundamental change!
IMO the best game ever would be taking what SWTOR dies right and SWG did right and boom there is a game to end all games!
Their is challenge in plenty of games they have just taken out the brutally dull (for some people) journey and the ridiculous punishments for dying which sometimes was out of your control, (looking at you 56.6k modem). The genre doesn't need new challenges or old challenges it needs a fundamental change!
IMO the best game ever would be taking what SWTOR dies right and SWG did right and boom there is a game to end all games!
Originally posted by Ergload I think devs have made MMOs much easier to grind through because they low gamers today have very low attention spans and will quickly hop from game to game, I mean how many people today would stick with the long, long, long grinding hours required in Everquest? Not many, not when there's hundreds of other options to play.
Short != easy. You can play D3 in 15 min session but it can be more challenging than almost any game in the world (including having a perma-death penalty).
It is not about being long, it is about being challenging and fun.
IMO the best game ever would be taking what SWTOR dies right and SWG did right and boom there is a game to end all games!
There is no such thing for me.
I don't only play just one game. People here have read that i really like Diablo 3 ... but i don't expect to just play it forever. I will get sick of it (and did before RoS), and i also don't just play it .... i play other games (like Tombraider) too.
Challenging does not always equal fun. I have many a times seen challenging stuff in MMOs end up in people raging, dramaing and rage quitting. MMOs need to have simple times where relaxing can be fun too.
The problem is that that current MMOs just overload on the easy stuff, where the optimal route is the easiest route. There is no risk - reward balance. Nobody's hit a sweet spot for challenging encounters, be it the sudden burst in rewards being too strong and ending up making the encounter too rare, or having the rewards simply not worth the trouble at all.
It is because of this that I also hold the opinion that most MMOs are too fast (something I've thought about after reading another recent thread). The progression needs to cater for both difficult and easy content, and last long enough such that there's a time frame where the difficult content can give rewards that will last a reasonable time. Otherwise, the feeling of the game being easy and a quick breeze through will always be there; where the easiest route will always be the most optimal route.
Originally posted by StonesDK Why play a MMO that's going to reward me in three months time, when I can get rewarded in WoW by tomorrow if i start now? Figuratively speaking.
what do you mean by reward? So you saying, you should be rewarded for just showing up?
Why not.
This is what society is teaching children today.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
Originally posted by StonesDK Why play a MMO that's going to reward me in three months time, when I can get rewarded in WoW by tomorrow if i start now? Figuratively speaking.
what do you mean by reward? So you saying, you should be rewarded for just showing up?
Why not.
This is what society is teaching children today.
MMORPGs have always rewarded people "just for showing up". It's what grinding is based on. You show up, do an easy meaningless task and are rewarded with a bit of XP, gold or reputation.
Originally posted by StonesDK Why play a MMO that's going to reward me in three months time, when I can get rewarded in WoW by tomorrow if i start now? Figuratively speaking.
what do you mean by reward? So you saying, you should be rewarded for just showing up?
Why not.
This is what society is teaching children today.
MMORPGs have always rewarded people "just for showing up". It's what grinding is based on. You show up, do an easy meaningless task and are rewarded with a bit of XP, gold or reputation.
I think he is referring to that you couldn't just jump in and get to max level with no issue. You had to invest time to level, time to possible find groups, time to figure out quests, time to learn the game mechanics, and in general there was just a lot more investment into the game. Now you can level to max level and move on or grind further for equipment. Most people just move on to the next game though. It is why free to play is so poplar at the moment. There is little time and effort invested into a single game so there is little attachment to it either. You feel you can just play through the game on your own quickly and move on.
MMORPGs have always rewarded people "just for showing up". It's what grinding is based on. You show up, do an easy meaningless task and are rewarded with a bit of XP, gold or reputation.
Of course. Entertainment, by definition, is rewarding you by showing up. The reward is fun.
A little bit of work for the illusion of achievement is ok, and part of the fun, but most people don't want to do real work in their entertainment.
Comments
It would have been interesting if it was real though. There would have been lots of negative posting. :-)
Too bad .. i don't like games that are either too hard, or too easy for me, and without some difficulty option, it is not likely that a game will hit my preference.
I guess i will have to pass on DS2. Well, it is not like i don't have a tons of other games to play now ... D3 RoS, tombraider, Thief, sniper elite v2 , witcher 2 ... i probably don't have time anywyay.
I would not just to that conclusion so easily. The "old school" MMORPGs catered to some very low standards and we always hear complaints on these forums how the modern developers do not want to cater to that lowest common denominator.
I'm pretty sure what he is saying is that the games now don't required much effort to progress. That is by intent and it draws a lot of people to play the game. It's like Dark Souls where only a certain group of players are attracted to playing because it requires a large time investment to figure out what works, where to go, and what to do. You aren't pointed anywhere by a GPS and told what needs to be done. I'm pretty sure that proves that most people just don't have the patience for figuring things out. Even with the internet at their finger tips to look things up. The other factor is that they concentrate so much on single player story that they have to strip out a lot of optional game mechanics. It's probably stuff that wouldn't appeal to most people anyway. That is not to say that playing MMOs in general has ever been good for you. I feel the Ultima Online and Evequest did offer some social interaction that couldn't be found anywhere else in a game. That was fairly invaluable to find other people who liked something like fantasy and wanted to share the experience.
Yes, I am your proof point. Looking for things is easy and boring. I would much rather have fun & challenging combat.
Hence, the D3 adventure mode and rift is a great system for me. Click on where you want to go, and you start fighting right away towards your objective.
There is no quest text to read ... and no running to the dungeon .. just a simple "kill x" or "finish this event". Pure hack, slash and loot goodies.
Actually looking for things and finding a path where there is no direct path is very challenging for most. That's why they don't play the game. They play without some someone telling them where to go and what to do in order to progress.
well, it is not for me. It can't be more difficult than doing grid paper mapping back in the Might & Magic days. It is easy mode and tedious. Heck, worse case, just run through everywhere.
Not my idea of fun .. combat is 100x more challenging .. and more importantly .. more fun.
Note that i am talking about a ARPG, or a MMO.
If i want to playing a thinking man game, i go play puzzle adventure like those Shelock Holmes games (btw, they have some good puzzles .. now THAT is figuring things out .. not that tedious search the country side for a mob chore).
Dark Souls isn't just search the countryside for a mob lol and neither was Everquest really. It was just experimentation and figuring out what worked and what didn't. Generally if a game is telling you where to go the combat can't be expected to be that challenging. I feel like Diablo 3 is a numbers game. There is only a certain point you can get to without certain equipment. Until that point it's about acquiring said equipment by playing through the same area over and over again. I guess it can be fun for some. I tried played through it a fair number of times, but felt it wasn't much fun after a while. Theoretically it felt like I could get the loot I needed on lower difficulty so there was little reason to play on a higher difficulty until getting said loot and once I get said loot the higher difficulty wouldn't really matter as much. The main problem is that I just didn't want to put in the time to grind mobs for loot. I'm sure there are many games puzzle games that are harder than Dark Souls. I won't argue that, but generally there is more to exploring in old MMOs and especially in Dark Souls then you make it out to be. You don't sound like you made much of an effort to play through it.
EQ was way worse. Going to someplace is a chore, and all the spawns are static.
D3 is a numbers game .. you apparently have not played the game, nor look at the gorzillian youtube videos about different builds, and how to play them.
How is it a number game when, just for a wiz, i can tank, kite, cc, slow-time, duplicate myself, and a whole bunch of other stuff. And the mobs can wall you in, split poison, freeze you ... and do a bunch of other stuff to you.
And your general rule is pretty much wrong. D3 combat is known to be challenging .. and at no point you need to figure out where to do. Dishonored, Deus Ex, Witcher all have challenging combat (if you turn the difficulty high) and at no point you need to search for stuff blindly for a long time.
Looking for stuff is just easy-mode and boring ... and has nothing to do with combat challenge.
But what's the point in playing a MMO if I can't kill everything in sight non stop and reach end game in a few weeks so that I can complain that there isn't any content and then move onto the next game which is the same thing????
End sarcasm.
Gearscore? (sarcasm noted)
In EQ I might have had to spend a lot of time in one place, but there were a variety of different areas and mobs to camp for each level range. Since the leveling process was long I didn't have to worry to much about hitting max level and the gear grind. It was enough just to get to max level. In D3 you hit the endgame very quickly and there is nothing new. You have all your abilities at level 60 (which you get to fairly quickly) and then it's a loot grind or grind for marginal increases via paragon levels. In terms of variety Diablo 3 lets you do a lot of things, but I found that I didn't need to experiment much to find a build that worked even on the harder difficulties. I generally ended up on having 7 or 8 abilities, but I only really needed 2 or 3 most of the time. The others were just to for times when I needed something to protect myself. After this point it was just a matter of getting the right equipment to progress. There really wasn't anything new to do. Just repeat the same tactics over and over again in the same place with little reward other then loot. Not even new places to see.
IMO the best game ever would be taking what SWTOR dies right and SWG did right and boom there is a game to end all games!
IMO the best game ever would be taking what SWTOR dies right and SWG did right and boom there is a game to end all games!
Short != easy. You can play D3 in 15 min session but it can be more challenging than almost any game in the world (including having a perma-death penalty).
It is not about being long, it is about being challenging and fun.
There is no such thing for me.
I don't only play just one game. People here have read that i really like Diablo 3 ... but i don't expect to just play it forever. I will get sick of it (and did before RoS), and i also don't just play it .... i play other games (like Tombraider) too.
Challenging does not always equal fun. I have many a times seen challenging stuff in MMOs end up in people raging, dramaing and rage quitting. MMOs need to have simple times where relaxing can be fun too.
The problem is that that current MMOs just overload on the easy stuff, where the optimal route is the easiest route. There is no risk - reward balance. Nobody's hit a sweet spot for challenging encounters, be it the sudden burst in rewards being too strong and ending up making the encounter too rare, or having the rewards simply not worth the trouble at all.
It is because of this that I also hold the opinion that most MMOs are too fast (something I've thought about after reading another recent thread). The progression needs to cater for both difficult and easy content, and last long enough such that there's a time frame where the difficult content can give rewards that will last a reasonable time. Otherwise, the feeling of the game being easy and a quick breeze through will always be there; where the easiest route will always be the most optimal route.
Why not.
This is what society is teaching children today.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
MMORPGs have always rewarded people "just for showing up". It's what grinding is based on. You show up, do an easy meaningless task and are rewarded with a bit of XP, gold or reputation.
I think he is referring to that you couldn't just jump in and get to max level with no issue. You had to invest time to level, time to possible find groups, time to figure out quests, time to learn the game mechanics, and in general there was just a lot more investment into the game. Now you can level to max level and move on or grind further for equipment. Most people just move on to the next game though. It is why free to play is so poplar at the moment. There is little time and effort invested into a single game so there is little attachment to it either. You feel you can just play through the game on your own quickly and move on.
i didnt read much replies, cus i hate big answers that really doesnt add anything new !!
anyway, i see that ArcheAge,Albion Online,Black Desert are really promising and challenging and am looking forward to play them.
P.S: gw2 is really getting easier and if they didnt release any expansion soon, it will be disappeared under the dust of the arrival of the new mmos !
Of course. Entertainment, by definition, is rewarding you by showing up. The reward is fun.
A little bit of work for the illusion of achievement is ok, and part of the fun, but most people don't want to do real work in their entertainment.