Both parties are at fault here. There's simply no other way to look at this particular case.
1) Erotica1 is the lowest form of human life on Earth. He's a sociopath who should spend the rest of his life in solitary confinement and allow him no contact with society. This type of person cannot feel empathy for anyone but themselves and in fact, they always view themselves as the victim in any situation. Even in this situation he will find a way to twist the facts in order to believe that he is in fact the victim here.
This type of person should be banned from EVE along with his cohorts. Any game company that turns its eyes on such a clear cut case of sociopathic malevolence is 100% absolutely wrong. No amount of "EVE is supposed to be evil" will ever convince me otherwise. He simply has no place in this community.
Scammers DO have a place in EVE. I have both scammed and been scammed. It teaches you to carefully consider every action that you make and to choose your friends and contracts wisely.
Sociopaths DO NOT have a place in EVE, and hiding behind "he's just scamming" is an idiotic excuse.
2) His victim is the product of a coddled and babied society who believes that everything is fair and just. He's the kind of person who probably got a trophy on the baseball field even when his team lost just because he showed up. He's gullible in the extreme and he led himself down this path voluntarily.
Anyone with even an ounce of common sense knows that if it's posted in Jita local chat, then it's a scam. No one in their right mind hands over all of their possessions and then starts reading wikipedia entries out loud to a group of people on a VOIP server, no matter how much they promise you. Then to top it off, the way he reacts towards his wife over a video game is absurd.
Both of these individuals clearly have psychological issues. Erotica 1's issues are malevolent and sociopathic. The victim clearly has cognitive development issues in the area of social interaction to not even once question the acts that he's being asked to perform.
As for this incident, reprehensible for sure,but if CCP steps in to stop it, where does their jurisdiction end? Do they stop at this one isk doubling scam? Or do they go after all isk doubling scams? What are the limits and boundries? How much pain, loss etc does the victim have to suffer to make it worthy of an intervention?
It's simple. Every TOS has a clasuse somewhere saying that the game company has the right to ban someone for whatever they feel like, and I'm pretty sure a lot of people would agree that the community would be better off witouth people like this guy.
A great many more people would tell you "The Mittani" (Goonswarm leader) deserves to be banned for life. Are they right?
Like I said, where does it stop? Who decides? When do such decisions cross the line? When is there too much free speech? Hard lines to draw, once you start trying to.
Yup. If ever CCP had a reason to ban someone it was The Mittani. His offences were clear and many of them ingame.
CCP's jurisdiction ends when they leave game and talk over TS. What happens in the game during this is strange, yes, but nothing out of the ordinary nor banable.
If I get overly racist in an ingame channel while I play I am eligible for a ban. If I do the same in an IRC channel while playing the game I am not. This is faily simple logic.
These idiots are despicable, but not CCP's problem, or rather CCP can only jusdge them on their ingame actions, and in this case it is within the games limits.
Except Mittens did face repercussions at the time. I'm not saying CCP should change their policy and start monitoring cases like this one, but there are exceptions to be made, as they've done before. Even certain scams have been reimbursed and the TOS changed because they were based on variables outside the game: http://themittani.com/features/scam-changed-tos
Both parties are at fault here. There's simply no other way to look at this particular case.
1) Erotica1 is the lowest form of human life on Earth. He's a sociopath who should spend the rest of his life in solitary confinement and allow him no contact with society. This type of person cannot feel empathy for anyone but themselves and in fact, they always view themselves as the victim in any situation. Even in this situation he will find a way to twist the facts in order to believe that he is in fact the victim here.
This type of person should be banned from EVE along with his cohorts. Any game company that turns its eyes on such a clear cut case of sociopathic malevolence is 100% absolutely wrong. No amount of "EVE is supposed to be evil" will ever convince me otherwise. He simply has no place in this community.
Scammers DO have a place in EVE. I have both scammed and been scammed. It teaches you to carefully consider every action that you make and to choose your friends and contracts wisely.
Sociopaths DO NOT have a place in EVE, and hiding behind "he's just scamming" is an idiotic excuse.
2) His victim is the product of a coddled and babied society who believes that everything is fair and just. He's the kind of person who probably got a trophy on the baseball field even when his team lost just because he showed up. He's gullible in the extreme and he led himself down this path voluntarily.
Anyone with even an ounce of common sense knows that if it's posted in Jita local chat, then it's a scam. No one in their right mind hands over all of their possessions and then starts reading wikipedia entries out loud to a group of people on a VOIP server, no matter how much they promise you. Then to top it off, the way he reacts towards his wife over a video game is absurd.
Both of these individuals clearly have psychological issues. Erotica 1's issues are malevolent and sociopathic. The victim clearly has cognitive development issues in the area of social interaction to not even once question the acts that he's being asked to perform.
I have never scammed anyone in any game, feels "dirty" to me, so therefore I judge you as not worthy of playing EVE.
Wait, you say what you did was not that bad? I deal with absolutes, all scammers are scum and need to be removed from the game forever?
OK, I really don't believe that, but don't think for a minute there aren't some folks out there who do.
Again, if Erotica did nothing within the game world itself to break it's rules, how can you say CCP should take action to ban him. What if they find out one of their subscribers has a criminal record in real life, perhaps in embezzeling, should they ban him even if he never breaks a single in-game rule?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Both parties are at fault here. There's simply no other way to look at this particular case.
1) Erotica1 is the lowest form of human life on Earth. He's a sociopath who should spend the rest of his life in solitary confinement and allow him no contact with society. This type of person cannot feel empathy for anyone but themselves and in fact, they always view themselves as the victim in any situation. Even in this situation he will find a way to twist the facts in order to believe that he is in fact the victim here.
This type of person should be banned from EVE along with his cohorts. Any game company that turns its eyes on such a clear cut case of sociopathic malevolence is 100% absolutely wrong. No amount of "EVE is supposed to be evil" will ever convince me otherwise. He simply has no place in this community.
Scammers DO have a place in EVE. I have both scammed and been scammed. It teaches you to carefully consider every action that you make and to choose your friends and contracts wisely.
Sociopaths DO NOT have a place in EVE, and hiding behind "he's just scamming" is an idiotic excuse.
2) His victim is the product of a coddled and babied society who believes that everything is fair and just. He's the kind of person who probably got a trophy on the baseball field even when his team lost just because he showed up. He's gullible in the extreme and he led himself down this path voluntarily.
Anyone with even an ounce of common sense knows that if it's posted in Jita local chat, then it's a scam. No one in their right mind hands over all of their possessions and then starts reading wikipedia entries out loud to a group of people on a VOIP server, no matter how much they promise you. Then to top it off, the way he reacts towards his wife over a video game is absurd.
Both of these individuals clearly have psychological issues. Erotica 1's issues are malevolent and sociopathic. The victim clearly has cognitive development issues in the area of social interaction to not even once question the acts that he's being asked to perform.
I have never scammed anyone in any game, feels "dirty" to me, so therefore I judge you as not worthy of playing EVE.
Wait, you say what you did was not that bad? I deal with absolutes, all scammers are scum and need to be removed from the game forever?
OK, I really don't believe that, but don't think for a minute there aren't some folks out there who do.
Again, if Erotica did nothing within the game world itself to break it's rules, how can you say CCP should take action to ban him. What if they find out one of their subscribers has a criminal record in real life, perhaps in embezzeling, should they ban him even if he never breaks a single in-game rule?
Like I said, hard to know where to draw the line.
I don't know that CCP should do anything. Expressed my views earlier edited thoughts in as I was listening to the whole thing. Let's say if CCP took action on one they should on both. I've heard worse from scams but the scammers didn't take so long getting the reaction. That dude was the scary kind of unstable. What his wife said was stupid but her quivering with emotion was a bit much. What he did in the end he should have done early on. He knew the entire time he was scammed. But "What if." Pretty powerful when you just lost everything. These guys could have drawn him back in over and over dangling that carrot there even while he was exploding. Disturbing what I just listened to from all parties over a game of all things..
Originally posted by cronius77 yeah seriously anyone who falls for stuff like this deserves to get ripped off for being that stupid. While in the article the scammer is obviously some moronic idiot , if players were not so greedy this wouldnt happen now would it? You got these type of players in every game and you cannot blame a community of a video game for having some idiots who love to scam. If you think this is bad maybe you should go look up some of the bullying and issues in wow for example. Games with large playerbases are always going to attract good and bad players alike and the larger the game , the larger your chances are to run into the filth in this world. There is much more vile and evil things going on in this world , this is just immature pricks having fun at the expense of some idiot.
Sending away one's entire list of assets to someone is probably the dumbest thing I've seen in gaming. If someone falls for that I'm not going to have pity for them being scammed. Eve is famous for 'scams', but in reality there has been like 3 scams that actually had an effect in this game over the past 10 years, the rest being nothing but preying on people's massive ignorance that are as elaborate "give me money, I give you twice back" or "give me your weapon, I enchant it for you".
However, the whole mental harassment that came after it is simply disgusting and unethical, and is only going to give a bad name to the community.
Saying it's not a big deal is also a slippery slope. There have been people killed in real life over game disputes, but if you look at it, it's actually not a big deal compared to the holocaust and 9/11. For something that happened over a game, it was a big deal, and really gives a bad impression of the community to the outside world.
Pretty much how I see it.
What they did had nothing to do with the game or scamming except that they used the game as a platform to psychologically torture a fellow human being. If they logged off their toons the result would of been the same so I'm not sure what game they were playing but it was not eve online.
CCP should probably come out with a statement deploring the behavior of those "video gamers" for the reasons I've given and ban them from the game.
Scamming is a part of eve but using what you scammed to (as you said) mentally harass is just plain old sick.
Why is everyone coming down on this...this is EVE, it's a part of it. What I don't understand is just how someone could be so naive when it is said repeatedly over an over again in local chat in Jita and all the other main trade hubs - don't fall for scams! Anyone that actually thinks that someone is just going to double your ISK - because they say they will...don't play EVE - you're the reason things like this happen - you're gullible and lack good judgment. The guy that fell for this scam I do not feel sorry for one bit. It's like people that believe in God and hand over cash to churches - it's a scam. If the God of a church is so powerful, what does a church or religion have need of money for - why doesn't your God just provide for it's needs - he is suppose to be all mighty and powerful - or are you not capable of good judgement to understand this - hmmmm?
Oh and don't try to tell me I'm just as bad as the scammers that did this because I don't feel sorry for this guy...that guy at one point actually knew he had been scammed and yet "he allowed" them to continue on. All he had to do was stop. So more than once this person showed bad judgement. In fact he did it 4 times. So no, I don't feel bad for this person. And his language toward the end of the sound clip...that is inexcusable.
Why is everyone coming down on this...this is EVE, it's a part of it. What I don't understand is just how someone could be so naive when it is said repeatedly over an over again in local chat in Jita and all the other main trade hubs - don't fall for scams! Anyone that actually thinks that someone is just going to double your ISK - because they say they will...don't play EVE - you're the reason things like this happen - you're gullible and lack good judgment. The guy that fell for this scam I do not feel sorry for one bit. It's like people that believe in God and hand over cash to churches - it's a scam. If the God of a church is so powerful, what does a church or religion have need of money for - why doesn't your God just provide for it's needs - he is suppose to be all mighty and powerful - or are you not capable of good judgement to understand this - hmmmm?
Oh and don't try to tell me I'm just as bad as the scammers that did this because I don't feel sorry for this guy...that guy at one point actually knew he had been scammed and yet "he allowed" them to continue on. All he had to do was stop. So more than once this person showed bad judgement. In fact he did it 4 times. So no, I don't feel bad for this person. And his language toward the end of the sound clip...that is inexcusable.
I've been reading around and it looks like most people aren't coming down on the scam but the hour and a half of psychological mindfuck that happened after he was scammed.
I'd like you to consider that it's really easy to have good judgement when you are not emotionally involved with something. I'll bet that there's not a person reading this that hasn't allowed their emotions to cloud their good judgement.
What they did was wrong and blaming the victim doesn't make their wrong doing any more right.
Ahem, "this is Eve" is not an excuse, Eve is just like any other game in the sense that griefing other people is a punishable offense. The only difference is that scamming and the use of other game mechanics don't constitute griefing in Eve, and that recording had absolutely nothing to do with game mechanics. It seems like a lot of people like to justify all the bullshit for messing with others with buzzwords like "emergent gameplay" and "content creation". There have even been other scams that were reimbursed by CCP before, I wonder why everyone always forgets that? Your "HTFU" mentality holds as much water as CCP decides to think it does.
It's still a gray line, and it will be interesting to see CCP's stance over all the bad press this is generating lately.
Why is everyone coming down on this...this is EVE, it's a part of it. What I don't understand is just how someone could be so naive when it is said repeatedly over an over again in local chat in Jita and all the other main trade hubs - don't fall for scams! Anyone that actually thinks that someone is just going to double your ISK - because they say they will...don't play EVE - you're the reason things like this happen - you're gullible and lack good judgment. The guy that fell for this scam I do not feel sorry for one bit. It's like people that believe in God and hand over cash to churches - it's a scam. If the God of a church is so powerful, what does a church or religion have need of money for - why doesn't your God just provide for it's needs - he is suppose to be all mighty and powerful - or are you not capable of good judgement to understand this - hmmmm?
Oh and don't try to tell me I'm just as bad as the scammers that did this because I don't feel sorry for this guy...that guy at one point actually knew he had been scammed and yet "he allowed" them to continue on. All he had to do was stop. So more than once this person showed bad judgement. In fact he did it 4 times. So no, I don't feel bad for this person. And his language toward the end of the sound clip...that is inexcusable.
I've been reading around and it looks like most people aren't coming down on the scam but the hour and a half of psychological mindfuck that happened after he was scammed.
I'd like you to consider that it's really easy to have good judgement when you are not emotionally involved with something. I'll bet that there's not a person reading this that hasn't allowed their emotions to cloud their good judgement.
What they did was wrong and blaming the victim doesn't make their wrong doing any more right.
I disagree, the victim was for want of a better word, extremely foolish, and i have absolutely no sympathy for them, so okay, its not something i would do myself, as i don't feel the need to 'scam' people, but i don't see where the Scammer actually broke any rules, but here's the thing, the victim was in effect the victim of his own greed, because the easiest people to scam are the dishonest ones, scammers exploit peoples greed, although the sheer gullibility exhibited by the victim is cringeworthy in the extreme. Hopefully the 'victim' learned an important lesson about greed, far better to learn it in a game than IRL where the consequences are real, and not virtual.
Why is everyone coming down on this...this is EVE, it's a part of it. What I don't understand is just how someone could be so naive when it is said repeatedly over an over again in local chat in Jita and all the other main trade hubs - don't fall for scams! Anyone that actually thinks that someone is just going to double your ISK - because they say they will...don't play EVE - you're the reason things like this happen - you're gullible and lack good judgment. The guy that fell for this scam I do not feel sorry for one bit. It's like people that believe in God and hand over cash to churches - it's a scam. If the God of a church is so powerful, what does a church or religion have need of money for - why doesn't your God just provide for it's needs - he is suppose to be all mighty and powerful - or are you not capable of good judgement to understand this - hmmmm?
Oh and don't try to tell me I'm just as bad as the scammers that did this because I don't feel sorry for this guy...that guy at one point actually knew he had been scammed and yet "he allowed" them to continue on. All he had to do was stop. So more than once this person showed bad judgement. In fact he did it 4 times. So no, I don't feel bad for this person. And his language toward the end of the sound clip...that is inexcusable.
I've been reading around and it looks like most people aren't coming down on the scam but the hour and a half of psychological mindfuck that happened after he was scammed.
I'd like you to consider that it's really easy to have good judgement when you are not emotionally involved with something. I'll bet that there's not a person reading this that hasn't allowed their emotions to cloud their good judgement.
What they did was wrong and blaming the victim doesn't make their wrong doing any more right.
And this has about as much a link to EVE as anything else because the torture happened out of game.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Eve replicates the Stanford Prison Experiment in an MMORPG format. They've taken a virtual world with no real consequences and they've provided a blank slate and all the conditions (and incentives) necessary for people to act like sadists, sociopaths or just plain dicks if they choose...and guess what happens?
Why is everyone coming down on this...this is EVE, it's a part of it. What I don't understand is just how someone could be so naive when it is said repeatedly over an over again in local chat in Jita and all the other main trade hubs - don't fall for scams! Anyone that actually thinks that someone is just going to double your ISK - because they say they will...don't play EVE - you're the reason things like this happen - you're gullible and lack good judgment. The guy that fell for this scam I do not feel sorry for one bit. It's like people that believe in God and hand over cash to churches - it's a scam. If the God of a church is so powerful, what does a church or religion have need of money for - why doesn't your God just provide for it's needs - he is suppose to be all mighty and powerful - or are you not capable of good judgement to understand this - hmmmm?
Oh and don't try to tell me I'm just as bad as the scammers that did this because I don't feel sorry for this guy...that guy at one point actually knew he had been scammed and yet "he allowed" them to continue on. All he had to do was stop. So more than once this person showed bad judgement. In fact he did it 4 times. So no, I don't feel bad for this person. And his language toward the end of the sound clip...that is inexcusable.
I've been reading around and it looks like most people aren't coming down on the scam but the hour and a half of psychological mindfuck that happened after he was scammed.
I'd like you to consider that it's really easy to have good judgement when you are not emotionally involved with something. I'll bet that there's not a person reading this that hasn't allowed their emotions to cloud their good judgement.
What they did was wrong and blaming the victim doesn't make their wrong doing any more right.
Good post. sums it up nicely. I'm definitely not trying to be morale police. It's an interesting subject. How far is to far? One just needs the right things to use. This happened to be a game called Eve and a players assets. People put different values on different things in their lives. Just because one can crush a person mentally doesn't mean one should. Not my place to say if anything should be done. I do think because of what the victim said in the end he should be punished as well if the scammers are punished. The whole thing needed to end shortly after phase 1 but it's intent was to completely tear down other humans emotionally / mentally. They could have drug him back in even at the very end after all that raging.
For me, listening to another human being torn down like that is hard provided they aren't / weren't an evil person (murderer ect.) I've seen it in r/l a few times. The blog was over the top at parts.
Eve replicates the Stanford Prison Experiment in an MMORPG format. They've taken a virtual world with no real consequences and they've provided a blank slate and all the conditions necessary for people to act like sadists, sociopaths or just plain dicks if they choose...and guess what happens?
Uh, no. Eve may be an example of how an environment can drive behavior, but it's nothing like Zimbardo's experiment. For one, nobody was "arrested" at their own homes, taken to a local police station, strip searched and then put in a cell.
There are studies done on Eve Online and the community though.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Eve replicates the Stanford Prison Experiment in an MMORPG format. They've taken a virtual world with no real consequences and they've provided a blank slate and all the conditions necessary for people to act like sadists, sociopaths or just plain dicks if they choose...and guess what happens?
Uh, no. Eve may be an example of how an environment can drive behavior, but it's nothing like Zimbardo's experiment. For one, nobody was "arrested" at their own homes, taken to a local police station, strip searched and then put in a cell.
There are studies done on Eve Online and the community though.
Too literal. I wasn't suggesting it perfectly replicated it in every detail. I meant that it demonstrated that, given the authority, stronger position (plus, in this case, incentive) and opportunity people will act like dicks and sadists even if it's not necessarily an otherwise apparent feature of their personality. They have a cart blanche to let the darker sides of their natures run amok. Now, of course, there are no 'real' consequences but the problem arises when real world money is involved and sheltered and shaky kids who take it very seriously. Now you could argue that about any game but Eve has the potential to take this concept to a really dark place.
I'm not entirely sure this is limited to EVE. I don't see anything in here that couldn't happen in any other game, mostly because the worst of the stuff happens OUTSIDE the game.
That aside, I thought EVE's pride and joy comes from its sandbox nature, and IRL despicable acts like theft and treachery are wildly applauded in game? If you create a system without bounds and limits how could you possibly be surprised and abhorred by this behavior?
Have you never been to high school??
In my high school douchebags were either expelled or ganked after school :P
Originally posted by Kyleran Just to again point out, this activity is not reflective of the EVE community as a whole, nor is this behavior unique to EVE.
One of the best griefing guilds of all time, the Dark Wolves have been making people miserable and screwing with folks since 1996.
www.darkwolvesgaming.com
Actually it is unique. EvE breeds a special kind of sociopath. One that has an insatiable lust to feed his hubris by publicly humiliating a human being.
EvE breeds these kind of people, it creates more scum on a daily basis. People get scammed and humiliated constantly and the ones that do not rage quit become the new scamers and bottom feeders. Its a cycle of anger and frustration that has created an incredible hostile and antisocial environment. EvE will eventually collapse under this pile of shit.
Posting these humiliating recordings publicly can actually have very real legal consequences. This is not covered by free speech and is crossing into defamation. I would be very careful if i where this Erotica 1 person. This could eventually backfire and become very ugly.
Originally posted by hulgar Humans ara antisocial and violent by nature. -Hobbes
Wrong. A social environment that rewards violence, greed, gluttony and hubris creates exactly that.
There have been many studies and there are real live examples right now on this planet, that have proven that alternative societies that reward kindness and empathy do not show any signs of violence or antisocial behaviour.
This is a common excuse use by people that promote violence and antisocial behaviour.
"Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"
Taus..what i meant is that, as Hobbes said, without a controling envitoment (and you are talking about enviroments, not nature) human beings are violent and antisocial elements. You need an envitoment to prevent those behaviors. The one provided by EVE is the oposite. As you say and i agree with you, it promotes the oposite, one of the reasons i dont touch ot5 with a 100 ft pole (money laundry is another )
You've got to be a particular kind of "special" to submit yourself to such things in the 1st place. You don't have to be very bright to realize that giving over all of your stuff in game to someone is a very bad idea, new or not. If you're actually that gullible, well this is a sure way to teach you not to be.
Seriously, would you just hand over your wallet, keys, phone, clothes, etc to some stranger? Wtf would possess someone to do so in an MMO if they cared about any of their stuff?
Because obviously one guy is representative of an entire community.
But maybe you're right. I met a lot of not so bright guys while playing EVE, some even willing to just hand over large amounts of ISK to get into a corporation that everyone knows doesn't recruit from in game.
This guy was willing to hand over literally everything he owned thinking that someone would quadruple his worth.
It's not really fair to imply that everyone playing EVE is dumb, and greedy enough, to hand over everything they own to a stranger in an obvious scam.
Nor do I think "breaking his kneecaps" is the way to teach him to be smarter.
how would he not know this is scam.. dude they are making you read some bullshit... smh both sides annoy me
15 mins in.. he still didnt know. and they are actually going through with it.
the issue isnt "game mechanics" or players creating 'content" these guys torture this guy for no reason. they had already robbed him i dont see the point of keeping it going for so long. really excessive imo.
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
Why is everyone coming down on this...this is EVE, it's a part of it. What I don't understand is just how someone could be so naive when it is said repeatedly over an over again in local chat in Jita and all the other main trade hubs - don't fall for scams! Anyone that actually thinks that someone is just going to double your ISK - because they say they will...don't play EVE - you're the reason things like this happen - you're gullible and lack good judgment. The guy that fell for this scam I do not feel sorry for one bit. It's like people that believe in God and hand over cash to churches - it's a scam. If the God of a church is so powerful, what does a church or religion have need of money for - why doesn't your God just provide for it's needs - he is suppose to be all mighty and powerful - or are you not capable of good judgement to understand this - hmmmm?
Oh and don't try to tell me I'm just as bad as the scammers that did this because I don't feel sorry for this guy...that guy at one point actually knew he had been scammed and yet "he allowed" them to continue on. All he had to do was stop. So more than once this person showed bad judgement. In fact he did it 4 times. So no, I don't feel bad for this person. And his language toward the end of the sound clip...that is inexcusable.
I've been reading around and it looks like most people aren't coming down on the scam but the hour and a half of psychological mindfuck that happened after he was scammed.
I'd like you to consider that it's really easy to have good judgement when you are not emotionally involved with something. I'll bet that there's not a person reading this that hasn't allowed their emotions to cloud their good judgement.
What they did was wrong and blaming the victim doesn't make their wrong doing any more right.
And this has about as much a link to EVE as anything else because the torture happened out of game.
Just to be clear, there is a huge difference between torment and torture. This guy was tormented, not tortured.
Comments
Both parties are at fault here. There's simply no other way to look at this particular case.
1) Erotica1 is the lowest form of human life on Earth. He's a sociopath who should spend the rest of his life in solitary confinement and allow him no contact with society. This type of person cannot feel empathy for anyone but themselves and in fact, they always view themselves as the victim in any situation. Even in this situation he will find a way to twist the facts in order to believe that he is in fact the victim here.
This type of person should be banned from EVE along with his cohorts. Any game company that turns its eyes on such a clear cut case of sociopathic malevolence is 100% absolutely wrong. No amount of "EVE is supposed to be evil" will ever convince me otherwise. He simply has no place in this community.
Scammers DO have a place in EVE. I have both scammed and been scammed. It teaches you to carefully consider every action that you make and to choose your friends and contracts wisely.
Sociopaths DO NOT have a place in EVE, and hiding behind "he's just scamming" is an idiotic excuse.
2) His victim is the product of a coddled and babied society who believes that everything is fair and just. He's the kind of person who probably got a trophy on the baseball field even when his team lost just because he showed up. He's gullible in the extreme and he led himself down this path voluntarily.
Anyone with even an ounce of common sense knows that if it's posted in Jita local chat, then it's a scam. No one in their right mind hands over all of their possessions and then starts reading wikipedia entries out loud to a group of people on a VOIP server, no matter how much they promise you. Then to top it off, the way he reacts towards his wife over a video game is absurd.
Both of these individuals clearly have psychological issues. Erotica 1's issues are malevolent and sociopathic. The victim clearly has cognitive development issues in the area of social interaction to not even once question the acts that he's being asked to perform.
No one, nowhere, in any realm be it fiction or real, will ever give you something for nothing.
I am amazed by how naive people can be
Except Mittens did face repercussions at the time. I'm not saying CCP should change their policy and start monitoring cases like this one, but there are exceptions to be made, as they've done before. Even certain scams have been reimbursed and the TOS changed because they were based on variables outside the game: http://themittani.com/features/scam-changed-tos
I have never scammed anyone in any game, feels "dirty" to me, so therefore I judge you as not worthy of playing EVE.
Wait, you say what you did was not that bad? I deal with absolutes, all scammers are scum and need to be removed from the game forever?
OK, I really don't believe that, but don't think for a minute there aren't some folks out there who do.
Again, if Erotica did nothing within the game world itself to break it's rules, how can you say CCP should take action to ban him. What if they find out one of their subscribers has a criminal record in real life, perhaps in embezzeling, should they ban him even if he never breaks a single in-game rule?
Like I said, hard to know where to draw the line.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I don't know that CCP should do anything. Expressed my views earlier edited thoughts in as I was listening to the whole thing. Let's say if CCP took action on one they should on both. I've heard worse from scams but the scammers didn't take so long getting the reaction. That dude was the scary kind of unstable. What his wife said was stupid but her quivering with emotion was a bit much. What he did in the end he should have done early on. He knew the entire time he was scammed. But "What if." Pretty powerful when you just lost everything. These guys could have drawn him back in over and over dangling that carrot there even while he was exploding. Disturbing what I just listened to from all parties over a game of all things..
Pretty much how I see it.
What they did had nothing to do with the game or scamming except that they used the game as a platform to psychologically torture a fellow human being. If they logged off their toons the result would of been the same so I'm not sure what game they were playing but it was not eve online.
CCP should probably come out with a statement deploring the behavior of those "video gamers" for the reasons I've given and ban them from the game.
Scamming is a part of eve but using what you scammed to (as you said) mentally harass is just plain old sick.
Why is everyone coming down on this...this is EVE, it's a part of it. What I don't understand is just how someone could be so naive when it is said repeatedly over an over again in local chat in Jita and all the other main trade hubs - don't fall for scams! Anyone that actually thinks that someone is just going to double your ISK - because they say they will...don't play EVE - you're the reason things like this happen - you're gullible and lack good judgment. The guy that fell for this scam I do not feel sorry for one bit. It's like people that believe in God and hand over cash to churches - it's a scam. If the God of a church is so powerful, what does a church or religion have need of money for - why doesn't your God just provide for it's needs - he is suppose to be all mighty and powerful - or are you not capable of good judgement to understand this - hmmmm?
Oh and don't try to tell me I'm just as bad as the scammers that did this because I don't feel sorry for this guy...that guy at one point actually knew he had been scammed and yet "he allowed" them to continue on. All he had to do was stop. So more than once this person showed bad judgement. In fact he did it 4 times. So no, I don't feel bad for this person. And his language toward the end of the sound clip...that is inexcusable.
I've been reading around and it looks like most people aren't coming down on the scam but the hour and a half of psychological mindfuck that happened after he was scammed.
I'd like you to consider that it's really easy to have good judgement when you are not emotionally involved with something. I'll bet that there's not a person reading this that hasn't allowed their emotions to cloud their good judgement.
What they did was wrong and blaming the victim doesn't make their wrong doing any more right.
Ahem, "this is Eve" is not an excuse, Eve is just like any other game in the sense that griefing other people is a punishable offense. The only difference is that scamming and the use of other game mechanics don't constitute griefing in Eve, and that recording had absolutely nothing to do with game mechanics. It seems like a lot of people like to justify all the bullshit for messing with others with buzzwords like "emergent gameplay" and "content creation". There have even been other scams that were reimbursed by CCP before, I wonder why everyone always forgets that? Your "HTFU" mentality holds as much water as CCP decides to think it does.
It's still a gray line, and it will be interesting to see CCP's stance over all the bad press this is generating lately.
Well, its sad when some one gets scammed, but anyone playing the game should remember the three most important rules.
Rule One. Trust No One. Seriously. There are lots of good people in EVE, but there are also lots of Goonies and other such.
Rule Two. NEVER un dock anything you can't afford to replace.
Rule Three. Keep your clone up to date, and use jump clones in dangerous situations.
I disagree, the victim was for want of a better word, extremely foolish, and i have absolutely no sympathy for them, so okay, its not something i would do myself, as i don't feel the need to 'scam' people, but i don't see where the Scammer actually broke any rules, but here's the thing, the victim was in effect the victim of his own greed, because the easiest people to scam are the dishonest ones, scammers exploit peoples greed, although the sheer gullibility exhibited by the victim is cringeworthy in the extreme. Hopefully the 'victim' learned an important lesson about greed, far better to learn it in a game than IRL where the consequences are real, and not virtual.
And this has about as much a link to EVE as anything else because the torture happened out of game.
One of the best griefing guilds of all time, the Dark Wolves have been making people miserable and screwing with folks since 1996.
www.darkwolvesgaming.com
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Eve replicates the Stanford Prison Experiment in an MMORPG format. They've taken a virtual world with no real consequences and they've provided a blank slate and all the conditions (and incentives) necessary for people to act like sadists, sociopaths or just plain dicks if they choose...and guess what happens?
Good post. sums it up nicely. I'm definitely not trying to be morale police. It's an interesting subject. How far is to far? One just needs the right things to use. This happened to be a game called Eve and a players assets. People put different values on different things in their lives. Just because one can crush a person mentally doesn't mean one should. Not my place to say if anything should be done. I do think because of what the victim said in the end he should be punished as well if the scammers are punished. The whole thing needed to end shortly after phase 1 but it's intent was to completely tear down other humans emotionally / mentally. They could have drug him back in even at the very end after all that raging.
For me, listening to another human being torn down like that is hard provided they aren't / weren't an evil person (murderer ect.) I've seen it in r/l a few times. The blog was over the top at parts.
Uh, no. Eve may be an example of how an environment can drive behavior, but it's nothing like Zimbardo's experiment. For one, nobody was "arrested" at their own homes, taken to a local police station, strip searched and then put in a cell.
There are studies done on Eve Online and the community though.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Too literal. I wasn't suggesting it perfectly replicated it in every detail. I meant that it demonstrated that, given the authority, stronger position (plus, in this case, incentive) and opportunity people will act like dicks and sadists even if it's not necessarily an otherwise apparent feature of their personality. They have a cart blanche to let the darker sides of their natures run amok. Now, of course, there are no 'real' consequences but the problem arises when real world money is involved and sheltered and shaky kids who take it very seriously. Now you could argue that about any game but Eve has the potential to take this concept to a really dark place.
-Hobbes
In my high school douchebags were either expelled or ganked after school :P
Actually it is unique. EvE breeds a special kind of sociopath. One that has an insatiable lust to feed his hubris by publicly humiliating a human being.
EvE breeds these kind of people, it creates more scum on a daily basis. People get scammed and humiliated constantly and the ones that do not rage quit become the new scamers and bottom feeders. Its a cycle of anger and frustration that has created an incredible hostile and antisocial environment. EvE will eventually collapse under this pile of shit.
Posting these humiliating recordings publicly can actually have very real legal consequences. This is not covered by free speech and is crossing into defamation. I would be very careful if i where this Erotica 1 person. This could eventually backfire and become very ugly.
Wrong. A social environment that rewards violence, greed, gluttony and hubris creates exactly that.
There have been many studies and there are real live examples right now on this planet, that have proven that alternative societies that reward kindness and empathy do not show any signs of violence or antisocial behaviour.
This is a common excuse use by people that promote violence and antisocial behaviour.
You've got to be a particular kind of "special" to submit yourself to such things in the 1st place. You don't have to be very bright to realize that giving over all of your stuff in game to someone is a very bad idea, new or not. If you're actually that gullible, well this is a sure way to teach you not to be.
Seriously, would you just hand over your wallet, keys, phone, clothes, etc to some stranger? Wtf would possess someone to do so in an MMO if they cared about any of their stuff?
Because obviously one guy is representative of an entire community.
But maybe you're right. I met a lot of not so bright guys while playing EVE, some even willing to just hand over large amounts of ISK to get into a corporation that everyone knows doesn't recruit from in game.
This guy was willing to hand over literally everything he owned thinking that someone would quadruple his worth.
It's not really fair to imply that everyone playing EVE is dumb, and greedy enough, to hand over everything they own to a stranger in an obvious scam.
Nor do I think "breaking his kneecaps" is the way to teach him to be smarter.
how would he not know this is scam.. dude they are making you read some bullshit... smh both sides annoy me
15 mins in.. he still didnt know. and they are actually going through with it.
the issue isnt "game mechanics" or players creating 'content" these guys torture this guy for no reason. they had already robbed him i dont see the point of keeping it going for so long. really excessive imo.
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
Just to be clear, there is a huge difference between torment and torture. This guy was tormented, not tortured.