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Why Class Distinction adds to Depth - Yes it's a Rant
Comaf
Member UncommonPosts: 1,150
After reading a post about bow wielding sorcs...it appears that the most powerful builds threads begins in the so called classless class system. This happened in Rift...and by live people were near carbon copies on the instanced BG field. There's going to be little if any class distinction here.
Epic fantasy that we have all experienced had class differences at least to enough of an extent as to see each character intriguing and unique in their own way. It is what made up much of the uniqueness of the story of Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, and even Game of Thrones.
As an example of what I'm saying, let's pretend an author wrote ESO (theoretically a dozen or so did)...any author that sits down and automatically begins to blur the classes and races together will have failed at class distinction and hence, depth. No one will care about Bob the Conquerer if he's no different from Sally the Slayer by the end of the book. And why should anyone else deal with this mediocrity of imagination? Sorcerers with bows, rogues in heavy armor with 2 handed swords, all races in any faction, what began as a medieval mmorpg has turned into nonsense. A video game of mage tank rogue healers is just silly.
All that loyalty to the part of the audience that wanted to do "anything I want to do" will be moot when they move on to the next fun thing and the base audience is left with something that belongs in the kid section at Wallmart. I've waited years for a tri-realm mmorpg. I saw that the guy from Dark Age of Camelot...Matt Firor, that helped to develop RvR was running this. Each passing beta faded further from that vision.
The question folks have to ask themselves, is why leave what you are playing now for this? Just because the skins are different? Still don't get what I'm saying?
Here:
Elder Scrolls Online Revamp of the Lord of the Rings Novels:
- The Hobbits can all shoot fireballs while wearing full plate...plus they keep their other skills.
- Gandalf expands on his cloth wearing sorcerer build that includes sword and staff (though only HE can do this)...and as well can now stealth, wear plate, and fly based on the power of dark flatulence.
- Sauron is a farmer, plus he can lob ice bolts from Mount Doom - even though it's bathed in lava.
- Aragorn is a sorcerer. While women swooned as he tore through bad guys with swords in hand...he's actually a sorcerer and can do anything any other fireball dark miasma ice bolt throwing mage can do.
- Legolas is wicked with a bow..but once we make him a plate wearing healer who can use a 2 handed hammer....he's so much more enviable. Don't worry, he still uses a bow for when he runs out of magicka.
Whatever...
Flame away, but this is my 2 cents.
Comments
Im not going to flame you, I actually think I see what you're saying, and Im eagerly anticipating the game.
The only concept that is giving you trouble, that is difficult to get your head around at first, there is no such thing as a rogue. A Nightblade in heavy armor and weilding a mace and shooting fireball spells is no more a rogue than a Dragon Knight in cloth armor with a resto staff. There is no such thing as a rogue, unless you consider someone who wears medium armor and uses bow skills or dual weild a rogue. In which case that could be any of the four starting classes really.
There will be odd combinations, just because we dont have a uniform name for them does not mean they dont have a place in fantasy lore. A wizard with bow skills, for example, they had a preset class like that in Oblivion, they called it a Witchhunter.
Just because most characters do not fall in to the most basic of basic archetypes like in Tolkien's universe does not mean they dont make sense. If anything, from a gameplay point of view, the classes represented in LOTR were boring as hell with plenty of room to expand.
I don't get it.
The vast majority of mmos out there are class based and you get upset because ESO didn't completely abandon it's open skill system lineage so you could play an mmo YOU prefer?
I await your post complaining about Star Citizen not being a fantasy game next.
You stay sassy!
There will be unique skills for each class that only they will have. It will show in the skills they use, not in how they look or the weapon and armor choice.
You will get some races as mainly a mage or tank type of character. You will get many PvP builds that may use the same skills, but in PvE you will see many different builds. All can end up being unique in look and play style due to the freedom IMO.
I don't see this freedom as a slap in the face to fiction like LOTR. I see it as character building based on a freedom in the system. Allowing players to play the way they want and make a name for themselves through the system. It should let players make a character closer to what they see in their mind, not what is handed to them because it has always been that way in fiction.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
You sound like someone who has bought-in to the traditional segregated system to such an extent that you can't even see the artificial constraints any longer.
It's also ironic that in a rant where you're essentially promoting an ultra conservative view on class separation according to the way it has always been done, you would also say :
"The question folks have to ask themselves, is why leave what you are playing now for this? Just because the skins are different? Still don't get what I'm saying?
Yes, I do get what you're saying and it's a muddled mess where you even undermine yourself.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
The reason I said that - and yes I get why you say it's ironic, is because as you can already see here, few if any will say it's not just a watered down menagerie of do anything I want to do videogaming. So, I stated that it must be the different skins that folks want, because they must not see anything wrong with what they are looking at to begin with. In other words, I was being sarcastic due to the frustration of this 200 million dollar tank.
To the other folks above, there's a reason highly successful lore was built on the traditional Tolkien, then Dungeons and Dragons, and finally, the MUD/RPG/MMORpG format. The reason for trinity class systems and recognizeability becomes apparent in games that just blue everything together. Imagination dies at this point.
Folks can argue differently of course, but I have a strong suspicion this so called classless system that will in the end only incorporate the most powerful pvp mirrored builds (and there won't be more than 1-2 TOPs per archetype...)...this game will just seem average at best.
Had they fallen in line with what I will call the Dungeons and Dragons mechanic (since this was the first real attempt to take a Tolkienesque high fantasy world and make it multiplayer), then this title would be amazing. Again, who cares if the class distinctions aren't hardly apparent.
As on example, I have no interest in seeing 75% of the population wielding bows in so called tri realm RvR only because that's what works this particular patch. That just sounds like a broken game to me. Or perhaps, this is the Darkfall that everyone was waiting for? I think that was more of an everyone has wands vs just bows game...but yeah, the premise seems similar.
Mark my words, there's a reason why the most successful mmorpg of all time used a familiar UI and ran a distinction of classes, following the ever so viable trinity system. Proof in the pudding so to speak. It's just common sense.
Granted, the most vocal folks will come here to defend so it will seem to be a lopsided debate. I've basically walked into a Bible Church and yelled at the choir here, so I get it.
The Emperor skill line will be different. The Werewolf and Vampire skill lines will be different. You have to build your character differently to be a healer or tank, with skills, weapons and armor. New skill lines will be added that can be used in the trinity.
Any time you get PvP as a main part of the game. You will get "best builds", no way around it. Doesn't mean IMO that you just stay with the status quo typical hard trinity class system. You still end up with the same problems, only you get less freedom.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
Yes, yes you did, because you are comparing the tolkien franchise, the apex of traditional fantasy where the lore is more famous than the games with the ES world, where it's lore is good, but the games are way more important. The ES franchise isn't about the high-fantasy, it's about the immersion, the gameplay, how you can make your own story, the freedom to do what you want when you want, you can be a mage wearing cloth one day and on the other you can be wearing daedric armor and a 2h sword, you can murder an entire town worth of people but spare one single person because he had a "sad life story" to tell you. People already complained a lot how the class system limited options and how it's not "Elder Scrollsy" to have classes and now you complain it doesn't limits enough?
Riht now it needs the trinity, you will see your "rogues", "knights", "mages", but it's all about the player being able to fill these roles and change between them easily without having to make a new character every time you want to experiment something new. Like all games, you will se a handful of "best" builds for each role, but how this game is made every class will be able to fill every role, they might only not be viable for the "hardcore-only" population, which is a minority.
Amen to this. I seriously think this guy hasn't even played on ES game. He clearly doesn't understand what they're all about.
Makes sense to me. I think the gist of this is, that there may be only a few viable builds for mass existence in this game, meaning you are successful at competing in whatever arena, pve, pvp, solo woodchip burning. As with any game, everyone will flock to the most powerful build, and there will only be a few, leaving the other build combinations to those who don't care and just want to play it their way.
With this game, and the option to build your character basically classless, means that there will be pretty much the same character builds running around everywhere. At least with very strict class trees in other games, you have some variety.
I hope it doesn't turn out that way, as I do like the options of builds to all. But we know it will turn out that way.
I think the OP is wrong...
The skillsystem is like a box of buildingblocks...
but all blocks are different
you can use every block in a few ways
But you cant use it more then once
also you cant use all blocks, but only half of them..
you however also can also build several things, but still the rules above aply..
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
The class system in ESO is odd at best, especially in light of prior Elder Scrolls games. ESO' class system seems almost a random hodge-podge of skills thrown together since those skills are not really consistent with the class labels.
Most players, I suspect, consider the Templar to be the healing class, but it only has one line of skills that are consistent with being a healer. Most players, I suspect consider the DragonKnight to be the tanking class, but it only has one line of skills that are consistent with tanking. Most players, I suspect, consider the NightBlade to be the rogue class, but only one line of skills are really roguish. The Sorceror is pretty much a magic user in all of its incarnations, but it also has skills that most players do not consider to be typical of magic users.
Is this good, bad, or otherwise?
A matter of taste, I'm sure...
I think ZOS would have been better off using an approach similar to that of Morrowind's "class" system [minus the major flaws in that scheme like jumping interminably to level Athleticism]; in that system ( in case you're not familiar with it), character level was dependent on leveling skills; a character could level all skills, but a class was defined by skills that made greater contribution to character level than other skills. Alternatively, a player could define an "Adventurer" class and select those skills that made the greater contribution to character leveling.
In a MMORPG, that sort of system probably offers a lot of room for abuse... and min-max'ing... so maybe it's not desirable.
In the existing ESO system, people are using the available skill calculators and going "Ooh! Ahh!" without taking into account that not all skills are available at each and every character level. Either we're going to have to sit on skill points until desired skills are available (gimping our characters temporarily) or -- as will most likely happen -- players will take skills that are immediately available and find they don't have enough skill points later on to create the character they've dreamed about (and hypothesized using the skill calculators).
Try using one of those skill calculators in line with estimated numbers of skill points as you level (remembering you need three skyshards per skill point and very few quests give extra skill points on completion). The "Oohs" and "Ahhs" disappear...
ESO will be a good game, but the visions of sugarplums and lollipops will disappear quickly when the "new" wears off.
EDIT: Typo
The rate of skills gain to level, provided you quest, get the sky shards, kill the zone bosses that award skill points and mix in some Cyrodiil PVP (in other words, just play the game normally) is somewhere between 1.7 to 2.0+. Many PTS testers reported having 100+ skill points at 50... and it's very much in line with my 27-29 skill points on my 4 level 15s in beta.
Not only is that enough to create your "dream build" but there will be plenty left over for one or two crafting professions and a secondary set of skills for role switching... and there is re-speccing available at any time.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
We'll have to agree to disagree. My "dream build", as you called it, for my Templar requires 72 skill points at level 50, and that just concentrates on ONE skill bar: restoration staff and Templar healing skills; plus racial skills, armor skills, and crafting skills -- no world, alliance war, or guild skills -- a very focused and deliberate build.
Yes, if you find every skyshard (noting that 2/3 of them are in other alliance zones, so you can't get them until you reach level 50), do every dungeon and kill every boss, PvP extensively and get all the PvP achievements/pseudo-levels -- and DON'T respec, since that will apparently have a cost associated with it that will include skill points -- you will have enough for your "dream build".
But, realistically, is every player -- even a majority of players -- going to be so anal as to hunt down every skyshard, find groups for every dungeon, join every zerg in Cyrodil, and wait until level 50 to go chase down all those other skill points in other aliiance's zones?
Basic psychology says that's not going to happen...
I don't think you get it.
(Additionally, Gandalf, a wizard uses a sword so there is that but not my point).
In the Elderscrolls' world there are abilities and each person uses these abilities to greater and less extent.
You are trying to take the way things are in one land/story and apply it to another. It makes sense in Tamriel because magic is there to a greater and less extent for everyone.
There is this version of the skyrim theme that has a fight at the end of the video. On one hand I can see people thinking it's precious but if one can buy into "what it is" then during that fight, not only are the combatants melee fighting (of a sort) but they then take magic pot shots at each other, one using fire and one using electricity. I remember seeing it and thinking, wow, that felt pretty natural.
It's all about how that world is set up.
I'll just include this for the heck of it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgPienNLSyk
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Your weapon of choice is far the only thing that matters. Aragorn still wouldn't be a Sorcerer. He'd probably be a Nightblade. A Sorcerer with a sword is still very different from a Templar with a sword.
You try to dismiss mage tanks as silly and "something that belongs in the kid section at Wallmart"... why? Why shouldn't a mage be able to use magic defensively? Why shouldn't he be able to wield a sword and a shield? Are mages who shoot fireballs somehow more mature than mages who summon better armor?
So no, I don't get what you're saying.
This all seems part of the greater mmo argument I keep seeing:
PlayerX: I want depth and choice for my character!
Devs: Ok here's an open skill system. You can be anything you want!
PlayerX: OMG that is too complicated! Design my class for me!
Devs: Done! We limited your skill selection so now you just have to create your back story through faction and location in the world.
PlayerX: OMG that takes effort and is confusing! Make my class story for me so I feel like I have importance!
Devs: Done! Now go forth and explore the entire world and craft all the best things all players want!
PlayerX: OMG that sounds time consuming! I just want to kill crap you develop for me and find uber loot in instances I can repeat over and over!
Devs: Done! We will make everything in the game world for you and when you complete things we will make harder content! Is this the type of game you like?
PlayerX: NO! OMG I want a sandbox game! Themeparks suck!
You stay sassy!
Eh this system is fine at what it does. You can make your own class in a way. Lets take a example of Nightblades.
You can have a Nightblade in heavy, medium or light armour.
This nightblade could be dual wielding or using a 2handed weapon or even a staff
He could be a stealthy assassin, a lifestealer, a destruction mage or a evasive tank.
He could be decked out in purely anti-undead skills and excel against vampires or werewolves
He could be a vampire or a werewolf
He could have a mix of different skill trees
You dont know how this opponent is going to fight you until the battle starts. On another game this could easily have a different class name. The everyone will use the same most powerful builds is usually the normal argument against this system but I like to think nothing will counter everything.
That is certainly a lot to type. Seems easier to just not play the game and move along.
lol nailed it
waahwaahwaah and the result is a watered down version of the good stuff that doesn't taste like good stuff anymore because of all the water.
If anyone remembers Neocron, Beta 3 closed beta. Fantastic game, then they let the masses in, in Beta 4 aka open beta and listened to their "suggestions" the result was an utter trash game with no meaning at all.
Lesson still not learned by anyone: Don't listen to people who don't have a clue what makes a good game.
But you know at least one major title tries to not go full WoW clone, although
I'm on the fence, to buy or not to buy, When I played with a friend the game sucked. When I played alone it was bearable, but then again it was beta/stresstest. What really annoyed me was the endless quest grind. Quest quest quest next hub, quest quest quest. Always the same skills, always pressing the same old 1 1 1 2 lmb 1. Soloing key story questmobs impossible before leveling up a few aka doing uninteresting quests to be able to solo the mob meanwhile losing involvement with the quest. And so it becomes and endless questgrind. Then go play Skyrim to see that Skyrim graphics are much better and I still find something to entertain myself, thinking why waste 80€ on this and be forced to play for a month then waste the sub fee.
Regarding OP: Classes need to go, I'm actually glad they took a more skill-based approach however they did half-heartedly. And yes the danger of cookie cutter builds with pure skill-based systems are there and it's a true art to create a system that is truly balanced (see Meridian 59 for a good skill-based system). I for one am tired of classes, tired of "iconic" characters, super heroes, I'd love to see skill-gain when you practice with a certain weapon and skills that depend on each other, let's say dodge + fist fighting enables staff fighting to be learned but not by some vendor that's present in every town, no you would have to find the roaming npc that is hidden in some remote area or search the world for scrolls teaching you combat abilities with the weapon. That would be awesome. What ESO does is rather ... meh. Better than distinct classes but not good enough. SWG's system was a hybrid and although I was sceptical at first it was really good. But then again the game world was different, no that linear questgrind you have in ESO.
Dark Flatulence is an Ultimate skill, right?!
I am soo wanting that... Got some right now =p
I got your Deliverance!
Where's my banjo?!!
Mediocrity of imagination sums your thread up pretty well. Just because it's not in Lords of the Rings doesn't mean there is anything wrong with a fireball shooting stealther werewolf. No one stops you from creating a traditional high fantasy character, but some of us like to think outside the box.