Yeah, the OP wants cookie cutter character design. The old Orwellian saw of locked down character classes equals freedom, open skill based character designs equals conformity.
Probably the influence of coming up through Runequest, Champions (pnp), City of Heroes, etc, but I really prefer more open ended skill based character designers.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Originally posted by HabitualFrogStomp If you remove the class customization from this game, it quickly becomes just another theme park. The class and skill point system is actually one of the most interesting things about the game. To make it some standard trinity bullshit, this game would lose its luster real quick.
i agree even though i still like the trinity and i am glad it's a part of this game as well.
this is the first mmo i have anticipated playing that i still don't know exactly how my character is going to turn out even after months of theory crafting.
nothing is set in stone just because i pick a certain class, like n most mmo's. there is a lot more freedom in the choices i make on how i decode to mold my character due to the skill point system they have in place.
yes it is one of the most interesting aspects of this game IMO.
To be fair expecting an Elder Scroll game to have distinct classes goes against the reason most people like Skyrim to begin with. That said I do agree that when everyone can do everything it kinda defeats the purpose of all decision making. Even class based MMO's don't really have classes anymore, just white washed versions of each other.
Classes should be distinct and unique or else what the hell is the point? Ironically EQ Classic had some of the most distinct class roles even though multiple classes got the same abilities(for instance 6 classes could root in that game). Class distinction goes well beyond abilities though, bleeding onto every facet of the game. Whether that be armor choices, group role, believability, race restrictions, starting area, class quests, etc.
You sound like someone who has bought-in to the traditional segregated system to such an extent that you can't even see the artificial constraints any longer.
It's also ironic that in a rant where you're essentially promoting an ultra conservative view on class separation according to the way it has always been done, you would also say :
"The question folks have to ask themselves, is why leave what you are playing now for this? Just because the skins are different? Still don't get what I'm saying?
Yes, I do get what you're saying and it's a muddled mess where you even undermine yourself.
The reason I said that - and yes I get why you say it's ironic, is because as you can already see here, few if any will say it's not just a watered down menagerie of do anything I want to do videogaming. So, I stated that it must be the different skins that folks want, because they must not see anything wrong with what they are looking at to begin with. In other words, I was being sarcastic due to the frustration of this 200 million dollar tank.
To the other folks above, there's a reason highly successful lore was built on the traditional Tolkien, then Dungeons and Dragons, and finally, the MUD/RPG/MMORpG format. The reason for trinity class systems and recognizeability becomes apparent in games that just blue everything together. Imagination dies at this point.
Folks can argue differently of course, but I have a strong suspicion this so called classless system that will in the end only incorporate the most powerful pvp mirrored builds (and there won't be more than 1-2 TOPs per archetype...)...this game will just seem average at best.
Had they fallen in line with what I will call the Dungeons and Dragons mechanic (since this was the first real attempt to take a Tolkienesque high fantasy world and make it multiplayer), then this title would be amazing. Again, who cares if the class distinctions aren't hardly apparent.
As on example, I have no interest in seeing 75% of the population wielding bows in so called tri realm RvR only because that's what works this particular patch. That just sounds like a broken game to me. Or perhaps, this is the Darkfall that everyone was waiting for? I think that was more of an everyone has wands vs just bows game...but yeah, the premise seems similar.
Mark my words, there's a reason why the most successful mmorpg of all time used a familiar UI and ran a distinction of classes, following the ever so viable trinity system. Proof in the pudding so to speak. It's just common sense.
Granted, the most vocal folks will come here to defend so it will seem to be a lopsided debate. I've basically walked into a Bible Church and yelled at the choir here, so I get it.
So basically OP is fearing "flavor of the month" builds even though there is such a variety of possibilities, thus not distinguishing itself from other mmo's?
Then again OP does want more class distinction, I'm a bit confused. I get it some of what he's saying, but there are many contradictions.
Personally, I really enjoyed having a class that was distinct in how it operated and how it filled a niche in dungeons and raid groups. I also enjoyed being able to fill multiple niches, but not at the same time. I could take my priest as Discipline and heal, with shields, or I could go as as Shadow and act as a mana battery and everyone was happy even though the dps was average. I could also take my Beast Master hunter and do a lot of DPS too, and sometimes provide comic relief trying to trap things.
I can understand why things got more homogenized though. I got raid spots because I could be a mana battery. I assume that I was beneficial or at least not detrimental in other ways because I could go as a healer or main DPS as well, but it's hard to say for sure. After classes got more homogenized, I knew I was getting raid slots because I was good at playing heals and DPS both. Other people who didn't roll the pick-a-class dice when they started playing had an equal chance to get raid slots and I could go PvP, which is what I really wanted to do.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
To be fair expecting an Elder Scroll game to have distinct classes goes against the reason most people like Skyrim to begin with. That said I do agree that when everyone can do everything it kinda defeats the purpose of all decision making. Even class based MMO's don't really have classes anymore, just white washed versions of each other.
Skyrim isn't the only Elder Scrolls game. Most of them had classes. Of course, they also had the ability to create your own class rather than using one of the pre-made ones.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
To be fair expecting an Elder Scroll game to have distinct classes goes against the reason most people like Skyrim to begin with. That said I do agree that when everyone can do everything it kinda defeats the purpose of all decision making. Even class based MMO's don't really have classes anymore, just white washed versions of each other.
Skyrim isn't the only Elder Scrolls game. Most of them had classes. Of course, they also had the ability to create your own class rather than using one of the pre-made ones.
They called some templates classes, but there were no REAL classes. In almost every other game a "class" is a hard barrier you can never cross and determines core mechanics too. A fighter always has a better to-hit progression or what have you.
All single player elder scrolls games have no barriers in that regard. Some made attempts to template certain things and called it a "class" because that term is in use the RPG world.
Classes are boring and stupid and in no way fit how humans actually learn or train precisely because they permanently disable your character from attaining certain things. This is bullshit. You could start as a wizard and train yourself to fight well later on. D&D made a number of attempts to capture this with dual-class and multi-class system through the various additions. But they were very awkward precisely because class is a crap over generalized idea whose only real use is to make pen and paper a bearable experience by simplifying the simulation for the player and the GM.
To be fair expecting an Elder Scroll game to have distinct classes goes against the reason most people like Skyrim to begin with. That said I do agree that when everyone can do everything it kinda defeats the purpose of all decision making. Even class based MMO's don't really have classes anymore, just white washed versions of each other.
Skyrim isn't the only Elder Scrolls game. Most of them had classes. Of course, they also had the ability to create your own class rather than using one of the pre-made ones.
The classes really were just "suggestions" based upon the available skills.
In morrowind, several classes use long blade. Crusader, Knight, Scout and Archer. Substitute somehting else and not much else changes.
I think they basically said "people like to play "x" therefore, of our skills, what skills might "x" comprise.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Comments
Yeah, the OP wants cookie cutter character design. The old Orwellian saw of locked down character classes equals freedom, open skill based character designs equals conformity.
Probably the influence of coming up through Runequest, Champions (pnp), City of Heroes, etc, but I really prefer more open ended skill based character designers.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
i agree even though i still like the trinity and i am glad it's a part of this game as well.
this is the first mmo i have anticipated playing that i still don't know exactly how my character is going to turn out even after months of theory crafting.
nothing is set in stone just because i pick a certain class, like n most mmo's. there is a lot more freedom in the choices i make on how i decode to mold my character due to the skill point system they have in place.
yes it is one of the most interesting aspects of this game IMO.
To be fair expecting an Elder Scroll game to have distinct classes goes against the reason most people like Skyrim to begin with. That said I do agree that when everyone can do everything it kinda defeats the purpose of all decision making. Even class based MMO's don't really have classes anymore, just white washed versions of each other.
Classes should be distinct and unique or else what the hell is the point? Ironically EQ Classic had some of the most distinct class roles even though multiple classes got the same abilities(for instance 6 classes could root in that game). Class distinction goes well beyond abilities though, bleeding onto every facet of the game. Whether that be armor choices, group role, believability, race restrictions, starting area, class quests, etc.
So basically OP is fearing "flavor of the month" builds even though there is such a variety of possibilities, thus not distinguishing itself from other mmo's?
Then again OP does want more class distinction, I'm a bit confused. I get it some of what he's saying, but there are many contradictions.
Personally, I really enjoyed having a class that was distinct in how it operated and how it filled a niche in dungeons and raid groups. I also enjoyed being able to fill multiple niches, but not at the same time. I could take my priest as Discipline and heal, with shields, or I could go as as Shadow and act as a mana battery and everyone was happy even though the dps was average. I could also take my Beast Master hunter and do a lot of DPS too, and sometimes provide comic relief trying to trap things.
I can understand why things got more homogenized though. I got raid spots because I could be a mana battery. I assume that I was beneficial or at least not detrimental in other ways because I could go as a healer or main DPS as well, but it's hard to say for sure. After classes got more homogenized, I knew I was getting raid slots because I was good at playing heals and DPS both. Other people who didn't roll the pick-a-class dice when they started playing had an equal chance to get raid slots and I could go PvP, which is what I really wanted to do.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Skyrim isn't the only Elder Scrolls game. Most of them had classes. Of course, they also had the ability to create your own class rather than using one of the pre-made ones.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
They called some templates classes, but there were no REAL classes. In almost every other game a "class" is a hard barrier you can never cross and determines core mechanics too. A fighter always has a better to-hit progression or what have you.
All single player elder scrolls games have no barriers in that regard. Some made attempts to template certain things and called it a "class" because that term is in use the RPG world.
Classes are boring and stupid and in no way fit how humans actually learn or train precisely because they permanently disable your character from attaining certain things. This is bullshit. You could start as a wizard and train yourself to fight well later on. D&D made a number of attempts to capture this with dual-class and multi-class system through the various additions. But they were very awkward precisely because class is a crap over generalized idea whose only real use is to make pen and paper a bearable experience by simplifying the simulation for the player and the GM.
The classes really were just "suggestions" based upon the available skills.
In morrowind, several classes use long blade. Crusader, Knight, Scout and Archer. Substitute somehting else and not much else changes.
I think they basically said "people like to play "x" therefore, of our skills, what skills might "x" comprise.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo