If they are still offended, this might not be the game for them in the first place.
You hit the nail right on the head. I should actually warn people better at the start because you are completely right. Our past and this future ARG may not be the right form of entertainment for you. Even if deep down I try to reach everyone.
And in my opinion as a Player you should not try to reach everyone. We all have our likes and dislikes. Preferences. Culture. Language. Beliefs. "Mind Set". View of what reality is itself. If you can reach a few you're doing good. If you can reach many but not all you hit the jackpot.
I'm not trying to tell you what to do or anything like that.... but if you were my friend in real life and you asked me what I thought, what I am writing now is what I would say. My counsel to you.
Make the Game you and your Team dream of making. Get passionate about it and stay that way if you can in this screwed up world. Share your dream with those who appreciate it, for not everyone can or will try to appreciate it. Appreciate those who appreciate your dream. That's all a Player like me asks for from Devs. Love your game. Play it when you have time. Still in touch with it.
I see nothing wrong with the character in question, or how She's portrayed or clothed. I have no objections. She is a character I would respect and fear if I met a women like her in real life. I get the sense that if you changed her the changes would dull the dream.
Carry On.
OMG Please, some quote this guy and put it front page MMORPG... not only for us, for all the industry to listen.
If a clothing item is supposed to protect you from strikes from a sword, and looks like a bikini, yes then I would probably agree that it is out of place. If a clothing item is supposed to be revealing because it is saying something about that character, then a outfit like this might be perfect. For those who don't like it, vote with your wallets.
If they are still offended, this might not be the game for them in the first place.
You hit the nail right on the head. I should actually warn people better at the start because you are completely right. Our past and this future ARG may not be the right form of entertainment for you. Even if deep down I try to reach everyone.
And in my opinion as a Player you should not try to reach everyone. We all have our likes and dislikes. Preferences. Culture. Language. Beliefs. "Mind Set". View of what reality is itself. If you can reach a few you're doing good. If you can reach many but not all you hit the jackpot.
I'm not trying to tell you what to do or anything like that.... but if you were my friend in real life and you asked me what I thought, what I am writing now is what I would say. My counsel to you.
Make the Game you and your Team dream of making. Get passionate about it and stay that way if you can in this screwed up world. Share your dream with those who appreciate it, for not everyone can or will try to appreciate it. Appreciate those who appreciate your dream. That's all a Player like me asks for from Devs. Love your game. Play it when you have time. Still in touch with it.
I see nothing wrong with the character in question, or how She's portrayed or clothed. I have no objections. She is a character I would respect and fear if I met a women like her in real life. I get the sense that if you changed her the changes would dull the dream.
Carry On.
OMG Please, some quote this guy and put it front page MMORPG... not only for us, for all the industry to listen.
I guess I am confused, what was the point of this thread? It seems like the only responses that are acknowledged or cared about are ones that back up the position that her appearance does not bother then or that accept other games doing it as a perfectly acceptable reason for her to look like that here. Basically only responses that agree.
I do agree that it is your game and you should stick to your vision. But I would rather you just say "We like it like this, so STFU" (maybe more polite) than to make a silly thread that seems more interested in validating the choice as opposed to a real discussion on the question.
To be clear, I don't mind skimpier types of outfits, and often wear them on characters. At the same time though I can at least acknowledge that these types of outfits and the way women are drawn is a macro level issue in media, and often serves very little real purpose beyond "sexy sells". It has become a major aspect of marketing.
I guess I am confused, what was the point of this thread? It seems like the only responses that are acknowledged or cared about are ones that back up the position that her appearance does not bother .
I approve Gardavsshade not because it support my original position but because it's simply a very well written summary of the situation.
I guess I am confused, what was the point of this thread? It seems like the only responses that are acknowledged or cared about are ones that back up the position that her appearance does not bother .
I approve Gardavsshade not because it support my original position but because it's simply a very well written summary of the situation.
Then it would be nice to respond to the other messages, too. At the moment, we don't know if you understand our positions. I only read about how you defend your decisions. Don't get me wrong. It is your project and defending your decisions is something natural. I mean, if you can't stand behind it, who else would?
But it is very frustrating to see no reaction whatsoever to our comments. Feels like it's useless posting it because we feel it is ignored by you. And I know, it is kind of off putting to see negative reactions about some of your decisions. But negative reactions also mean something good. It means, that people care about this project and are concerned for its future.
Fubar over on TSW's forums. [Also in the German forums: Fubar]
Sorry for double posting but after thinking some time, here a little addition:
I think people are more offended of the outfit than of the pilot crash record or the mass murderer because it wasn't incorporated well enough. You see, the pilot crash and the mass murderer were a part of a puzzle. Connections that you as a user had to put together. The image of Alpha was just there. Maybe it would have been better received if it was accompanied by some more elaboration.
To the people talking about "white knighting" or "don't like sexy woman":
You just don't get the point. The point is that this image of patient Alpha is one of the first things someone interested in the game sees. In all likelihood, he/she won't know the story behind her clothing choices. And if you have no background it's just another half-naked woman trying to promote a game. And since this is mostly used by shitty games, people could draw conclusions about TBW. Same thing about the cybermage. People won't understand why she almost shows her vagina to everyone. And even after the explanation I don't get why the cybermage has to look like this. This outfit seems highly unpractical to me.
How will the male cybermage look? Will you see his happy trail, will he be half-naked? I see how everyone is fine with this but I'm looking forward to seeing almost fully clothed male characters and half-naked female characters like in every other game.
/rant
Fubar over on TSW's forums. [Also in the German forums: Fubar]
I will post here what I said in the other thread about Patient Alpha.
I wonder why no one has brought this up...
She is a character of similar power and background to Dr. Manhattan from The Watchmen. As the graphic novel went on, he wore less and less clothing. This was an indication of his slow evolution beyond the worldly concerns of mankind. When someone becomes more than human, a being with the power of a god, why would they bother wearing lots of clothes. I personally think she should be nude, just like Manhattan was at the end of the graphic novel.
You are all thinking of this along the lines of why would a human female show her body like that, when, in reality, the question is, would a god care about wearing clothes at all.
...That's what I've been trying to explain, and why her top and the cyber-mage dress create a dissonance for me. Neither of them seem to have any underwear, and what they're wearing would flash people if they moved, so it seems like they aren't dressed for going out in public, unless they're wearing skin-tone bodysuits. Or if the cyber-mage dress is stitched into her flesh. Fine enough for Patient Alpha, since it seems she may not have any need (or even be allowed?) to go anywhere...but my mind is boggled for the character class. I can't think of a substantial reason for the cutout size and placement, so the only answer I can think of to the question "why?" is "why not?" (to which I say, "what have you done with physics? Another kidnapping victim, I bet."). In any case, with their outfits looking more like private wear than public wear, they both seem to be set up to make people think "if only the camera were in a slightly different position, or she moved just a tiny bit, she would be exposed!" Obviously not everyone has that thought or basic feeling run through their head with these images--hell, it seems most of the posters here don't. As far as I can tell, though, with how the images are set up, they look like they very easily could cause that line of thinking.
...
Fubar over on TSW's forums. [Also in the German forums: Fubar]
clothing choice based on her being a cybermage? really? because there are no cybernetic male charactes in any graphic novels, movies, or simply artist renditions in which the male figure is fully 'clothed' or at least covered.
let's be clear, i like sexy women, i like sexy women in sexy outfits. i am not offended by tasteful nudity in general. however, this particular genre is notorious for it's halfnaked portrayal of women. and only a few years ago many openly stated in that depicition of women as 'sex sells'. and yes it surely does, but fully covered men and half dressed women is not selling 'sex', it is selling women and an image of women that right now needs to be put down like a rabid dog.
people maybe brainless, crazed consumers, but we really must fight the urge to turn us into the product as well.
there is always the chance that at sometime in the future women will be not consistently presented as products to be sold. but rather living, breathing human beings, not simply addendums, even if they are powerful ones.
"There are at least two kinds of games. One could be called finite, the other infinite. A finite game is played for the purpose of winning, an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play." Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
Sorry for double posting but after thinking some time, here a little addition:
I think people are more offended of the outfit than of the pilot crash record or the mass murderer because it wasn't incorporated well enough. You see, the pilot crash and the mass murderer were a part of a puzzle. Connections that you as a user had to put together. The image of Alpha was just there. Maybe it would have been better received if it was accompanied by some more elaboration.
To the people talking about "white knighting" or "don't like sexy woman":
You just don't get the point. The point is that this image of patient Alpha is one of the first things someone interested in the game sees. In all likelihood, he/she won't know the story behind her clothing choices. And if you have no background it's just another half-naked woman trying to promote a game. And since this is mostly used by shitty games, people could draw conclusions about TBW. Same thing about the cybermage. People won't understand why she almost shows her vagina to everyone. And even after the explanation I don't get why the cybermage has to look like this. This outfit seems highly unpractical to me.
How will the male cybermage look? Will you see his happy trail, will he be half-naked? I see how everyone is fine with this but I'm looking forward to seeing almost fully clothed male characters and half-naked female characters like in every other game.
/rant
Literally EVERY game does this unless they simply do not have anything that fits it. Like minecraft. It's not just "shitty games". ALL of them.
Heck, even Halo has Cortana (which Microsoft is now banking on as a contender to Siri, and for that purpose, both of those are carefully crafted synthetic voices that are again designed to be attractive, and female).
The simple fact is, if an attractive person can be displayed, they will be. Why? Because they are attractive. This isn't some new phenomenon in the 20th century. Attractive people (both women and men) have been used to promote things literally since the dawn of man. Look at the mantle on the Parthenon. What does it have? A whole bunch of nude or lightly clothed men and women who are "olympic" and pretty much still the embodiment of "perfect" physicality.
Seeing a single image and making a snap judgement says much more about the observer and their prejudices than the observed. As the saying goes, "Don't judge a book by it's cover," or if you want to get Star Wars, "Judge me by my size, do you?"
Another "product" AKA side of beef to market to male players. Why don't we have males with huge bulges in thongs since the other 50% of the population plays PC games too?
Sadly, some for inexplicable reasons sit at their computers, login and POOF! The other half of the population magically disappears! Sigh
Seeing a single image and making a snap judgement says much more about the observer and their prejudices than the observed. As the saying goes, "Don't judge a book by it's cover," or if you want to get Star Wars, "Judge me by my size, do you?"
I can't speak for others, but for me, Patient Alpha mostly just got a sigh and a shrug*--it was the cyber-mage outfit got a lot of "how?" and "why?" and a much heavier sigh from me. With the release of the latter, both of the only two distinctly female art pieces we've seen for the PARG fall under the category of "impractical clothing for no discernible reason." The rift image has one character who is very likely male, and two others (not counting the arm, or the tiny folks in the distance) who are of indeterminate sex, all wearing armor that makes sense and gives an indication of their job and rank (notice the red-orange-yellow lights). The cyber-mage...I don't know. Maybe our characters don't have to worry about being arrested--or at least stopped and delayed--for public indecency, and decided to take advantage of that...for everyone in the sub-class, whether they personally wanted to or not, since it's presumably a uniform.
*Until we got more information, anyway--now I'm largely wondering why they felt they needed to deviate from canon when they could very well have just used slightly different scarf placement (or used the scarves as "clothing" by tying/wrapping them in any number of ways) and had essentially the same effect, but more true to lore.
We don't have much by way of lore for the classes, but from the looks of it, the ones we've been given technical info are all "mundanes," and would have to stick with practical, functional clothing (armor, pockets, etc.). On the other hand, the four we don't know much about seem to be the "magic" classes, and perhaps aren't necessarily restricted by physics. So, since there's an even number of both, sure, why not go ahead and take full advantage of that? Make male and female mundane outfits practical, something you could actually make and wear without having to be always be aware of it and have to make constant adjustments (a.k.a. not a cosplay nightmare)...then go wild with male and female magic outfits. I just ask that it be done in a somewhat balanced manner. I haven't forsaken the game, and though my interest in the visuals for it have been diminished, I'm willing to wait and see what else we get before I decidedly slot the art into "not interested."
You wanna go Fifth Element? Let's go Fifth Element. Disturb the comforted, Anashel. You said it's one of your goals to make people uncomfortable, and that it makes you happy (seriously, excited about death threats? you're mad, man ;P). This is one method I haven't seen you take, that I think you are perfectly set up to do. I dare you to give some male classes similarly impractical, "sexy" outfits--and I double-dog-dare you to do it in a way that isn't just poking fun via the caricature "look at how ridiculous this outfit looks on a man!"...because that certainly doesn't seem to be why you've done it with the female characters. (But I wouldn't come to me for suggestions on how to make the male outfits, unless you want to hear "this is how you make that dress look good on broad shoulders.")
Never let the opinions of others change creative vision. If novelists gave in to the demands of critics, every book would be the same. Games are the same way. If your rendition of Alpha vibes with you, and the Cyber mage outfit is your expression, then don't back down. If you change anything, let it be because you want to.
As for the critics on either side, honestly your energy is best used elsewhere.
clothing choice based on her being a cybermage? really? because there are no cybernetic male charactes in any graphic novels, movies, or simply artist renditions in which the male figure is fully 'clothed' or at least covered.
let's be clear, i like sexy women, i like sexy women in sexy outfits. i am not offended by tasteful nudity in general. however, this particular genre is notorious for it's halfnaked portrayal of women. and only a few years ago many openly stated in that depicition of women as 'sex sells'. and yes it surely does, but fully covered men and half dressed women is not selling 'sex', it is selling women and an image of women that right now needs to be put down like a rabid dog.
people maybe brainless, crazed consumers, but we really must fight the urge to turn us into the product as well.
there is always the chance that at sometime in the future women will be not consistently presented as products to be sold. but rather living, breathing human beings, not simply addendums, even if they are powerful ones.
She is not a cybernetic being. That is not what cybermage means. She is more of a god-like super being who transcends the mortal coil
This is the good place to discuss on sexulization where everyone can share their ideas and thinking on this topic. So keep on discussion to help ,ore people.
Comments
OMG Please, some quote this guy and put it front page MMORPG... not only for us, for all the industry to listen.
I guess I am confused, what was the point of this thread? It seems like the only responses that are acknowledged or cared about are ones that back up the position that her appearance does not bother then or that accept other games doing it as a perfectly acceptable reason for her to look like that here. Basically only responses that agree.
I do agree that it is your game and you should stick to your vision. But I would rather you just say "We like it like this, so STFU" (maybe more polite) than to make a silly thread that seems more interested in validating the choice as opposed to a real discussion on the question.
To be clear, I don't mind skimpier types of outfits, and often wear them on characters. At the same time though I can at least acknowledge that these types of outfits and the way women are drawn is a macro level issue in media, and often serves very little real purpose beyond "sexy sells". It has become a major aspect of marketing.
I approve Gardavsshade not because it support my original position but because it's simply a very well written summary of the situation.
Then it would be nice to respond to the other messages, too. At the moment, we don't know if you understand our positions. I only read about how you defend your decisions. Don't get me wrong. It is your project and defending your decisions is something natural. I mean, if you can't stand behind it, who else would?
But it is very frustrating to see no reaction whatsoever to our comments. Feels like it's useless posting it because we feel it is ignored by you. And I know, it is kind of off putting to see negative reactions about some of your decisions. But negative reactions also mean something good. It means, that people care about this project and are concerned for its future.
Fubar over on TSW's forums. [Also in the German forums: Fubar]
Sorry for double posting but after thinking some time, here a little addition:
I think people are more offended of the outfit than of the pilot crash record or the mass murderer because it wasn't incorporated well enough. You see, the pilot crash and the mass murderer were a part of a puzzle. Connections that you as a user had to put together. The image of Alpha was just there. Maybe it would have been better received if it was accompanied by some more elaboration.
To the people talking about "white knighting" or "don't like sexy woman":
You just don't get the point. The point is that this image of patient Alpha is one of the first things someone interested in the game sees. In all likelihood, he/she won't know the story behind her clothing choices. And if you have no background it's just another half-naked woman trying to promote a game. And since this is mostly used by shitty games, people could draw conclusions about TBW. Same thing about the cybermage. People won't understand why she almost shows her vagina to everyone. And even after the explanation I don't get why the cybermage has to look like this. This outfit seems highly unpractical to me.
How will the male cybermage look? Will you see his happy trail, will he be half-naked? I see how everyone is fine with this but I'm looking forward to seeing almost fully clothed male characters and half-naked female characters like in every other game.
/rant
Fubar over on TSW's forums. [Also in the German forums: Fubar]
I will post here what I said in the other thread about Patient Alpha.
I wonder why no one has brought this up...
She is a character of similar power and background to Dr. Manhattan from The Watchmen. As the graphic novel went on, he wore less and less clothing. This was an indication of his slow evolution beyond the worldly concerns of mankind. When someone becomes more than human, a being with the power of a god, why would they bother wearing lots of clothes. I personally think she should be nude, just like Manhattan was at the end of the graphic novel.
You are all thinking of this along the lines of why would a human female show her body like that, when, in reality, the question is, would a god care about wearing clothes at all.
Well, Anashel doesn't want to react to my posts or answer my questions. Little disapointed about that...
Let's see what will happen in the future and if I will invest money into a project were I feel ignored. And not just me. Melgam gave also a very good point here: http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/1085/view/forums/post/6297530
Here is one part of it:
Originally posted by a-Melgam...That's what I've been trying to explain, and why her top and the cyber-mage dress create a dissonance for me. Neither of them seem to have any underwear, and what they're wearing would flash people if they moved, so it seems like they aren't dressed for going out in public, unless they're wearing skin-tone bodysuits. Or if the cyber-mage dress is stitched into her flesh. Fine enough for Patient Alpha, since it seems she may not have any need (or even be allowed?) to go anywhere...but my mind is boggled for the character class. I can't think of a substantial reason for the cutout size and placement, so the only answer I can think of to the question "why?" is "why not?" (to which I say, "what have you done with physics? Another kidnapping victim, I bet."). In any case, with their outfits looking more like private wear than public wear, they both seem to be set up to make people think "if only the camera were in a slightly different position, or she moved just a tiny bit, she would be exposed!" Obviously not everyone has that thought or basic feeling run through their head with these images--hell, it seems most of the posters here don't. As far as I can tell, though, with how the images are set up, they look like they very easily could cause that line of thinking.
...
Fubar over on TSW's forums. [Also in the German forums: Fubar]
clothing choice based on her being a cybermage? really? because there are no cybernetic male charactes in any graphic novels, movies, or simply artist renditions in which the male figure is fully 'clothed' or at least covered.
let's be clear, i like sexy women, i like sexy women in sexy outfits. i am not offended by tasteful nudity in general. however, this particular genre is notorious for it's halfnaked portrayal of women. and only a few years ago many openly stated in that depicition of women as 'sex sells'. and yes it surely does, but fully covered men and half dressed women is not selling 'sex', it is selling women and an image of women that right now needs to be put down like a rabid dog.
people maybe brainless, crazed consumers, but we really must fight the urge to turn us into the product as well.
there is always the chance that at sometime in the future women will be not consistently presented as products to be sold. but rather living, breathing human beings, not simply addendums, even if they are powerful ones.
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
Literally EVERY game does this unless they simply do not have anything that fits it. Like minecraft. It's not just "shitty games". ALL of them.
Everquest Next? Yep https://www.everquestnext.com/media?category=wallpaper or any other art page there.
World of Warcraft? Yep http://us.battle.net/wow/en/media/artwork/wow-classes?view=mage02&keywords=mage Though to give blizzard credit, they also include lots of other stuff, but to say that they don't promote with the same sort of art is a flat out lie.
Heck, even Halo has Cortana (which Microsoft is now banking on as a contender to Siri, and for that purpose, both of those are carefully crafted synthetic voices that are again designed to be attractive, and female).
The simple fact is, if an attractive person can be displayed, they will be. Why? Because they are attractive. This isn't some new phenomenon in the 20th century. Attractive people (both women and men) have been used to promote things literally since the dawn of man. Look at the mantle on the Parthenon. What does it have? A whole bunch of nude or lightly clothed men and women who are "olympic" and pretty much still the embodiment of "perfect" physicality.
Seeing a single image and making a snap judgement says much more about the observer and their prejudices than the observed. As the saying goes, "Don't judge a book by it's cover," or if you want to get Star Wars, "Judge me by my size, do you?"
Another "product" AKA side of beef to market to male players. Why don't we have males with huge bulges in thongs since the other 50% of the population plays PC games too?
Sadly, some for inexplicable reasons sit at their computers, login and POOF! The other half of the population magically disappears! Sigh
I can't speak for others, but for me, Patient Alpha mostly just got a sigh and a shrug*--it was the cyber-mage outfit got a lot of "how?" and "why?" and a much heavier sigh from me. With the release of the latter, both of the only two distinctly female art pieces we've seen for the PARG fall under the category of "impractical clothing for no discernible reason." The rift image has one character who is very likely male, and two others (not counting the arm, or the tiny folks in the distance) who are of indeterminate sex, all wearing armor that makes sense and gives an indication of their job and rank (notice the red-orange-yellow lights). The cyber-mage...I don't know. Maybe our characters don't have to worry about being arrested--or at least stopped and delayed--for public indecency, and decided to take advantage of that...for everyone in the sub-class, whether they personally wanted to or not, since it's presumably a uniform.
*Until we got more information, anyway--now I'm largely wondering why they felt they needed to deviate from canon when they could very well have just used slightly different scarf placement (or used the scarves as "clothing" by tying/wrapping them in any number of ways) and had essentially the same effect, but more true to lore.
We don't have much by way of lore for the classes, but from the looks of it, the ones we've been given technical info are all "mundanes," and would have to stick with practical, functional clothing (armor, pockets, etc.). On the other hand, the four we don't know much about seem to be the "magic" classes, and perhaps aren't necessarily restricted by physics. So, since there's an even number of both, sure, why not go ahead and take full advantage of that? Make male and female mundane outfits practical, something you could actually make and wear without having to be always be aware of it and have to make constant adjustments (a.k.a. not a cosplay nightmare)...then go wild with male and female magic outfits. I just ask that it be done in a somewhat balanced manner. I haven't forsaken the game, and though my interest in the visuals for it have been diminished, I'm willing to wait and see what else we get before I decidedly slot the art into "not interested."
You wanna go Fifth Element? Let's go Fifth Element. Disturb the comforted, Anashel. You said it's one of your goals to make people uncomfortable, and that it makes you happy (seriously, excited about death threats? you're mad, man ;P). This is one method I haven't seen you take, that I think you are perfectly set up to do. I dare you to give some male classes similarly impractical, "sexy" outfits--and I double-dog-dare you to do it in a way that isn't just poking fun via the caricature "look at how ridiculous this outfit looks on a man!"...because that certainly doesn't seem to be why you've done it with the female characters. (But I wouldn't come to me for suggestions on how to make the male outfits, unless you want to hear "this is how you make that dress look good on broad shoulders.")
Melycinya over on TSW's forums.
Never let the opinions of others change creative vision. If novelists gave in to the demands of critics, every book would be the same. Games are the same way. If your rendition of Alpha vibes with you, and the Cyber mage outfit is your expression, then don't back down. If you change anything, let it be because you want to.
As for the critics on either side, honestly your energy is best used elsewhere.
She is not a cybernetic being. That is not what cybermage means. She is more of a god-like super being who transcends the mortal coil