I prefer mob grinding. Now, if it's just purely mob grinding for the sake of it, or quest grinding for the sake of it, I don't mind either. However, I consider the game having a good job/crafting system to be the catalyst to having mob grinding being way superior. With diverse resource gathering requirements, material gathering through mob grinding ends up spreading out over the map and makes the game feel much more alive. The economy also kicks in with trading of those materials. Quest grinding streamlines the process and more often than not, destroys early crafting; progression in those jobs end up feeling a heavier grind since quest rewards gives you gear that you should be have been crafting.
I don't like either honestly. Obsession with vertical progression and themeparks only games lead to this problem.
Quest are good in moderation. It was a refreshing way to level after grinding mobs for years. I just don't like being forced into a mass of them as the only means of progression. The quest then just become another grind and the story becomes secondary or ignored.
Quest must be quest!!!!!! I don't need task thrown in as quest just to extend content hours. Kill rats and get rat tails just because is not quest. That's a task IMO. I rather do 20 long quest with one for each level then 500 quest and task to get to level 50.
Mob grind can be boring as well. You are not tied to task but you're killing the same mobs over and over. The game with the best mob grind was EQ IMO because it has interesting scripting. I also liked the freedom it gave that I don't seem to be funneled as much.
My opinion is to just get rid of traditional leveling with exp gains. ESO for example. They have good quest generally but leveling an alt or two in the same faction becomes overwhelming and I like alts. There are probably too many quest. I walk into Stormhaven and there's human sacrafices, devil worshiping and all kinds of mayhem with people begging for help every five feet it seems. I can feel the quest grind creeping on me.
There are other means of progression. You can go to time based systems like Age of Wushu. You can have use based systems like UO has/had where you do stuff and you get better(though macro can be a problem). You can go the Legend of Zelda route where you advance by gaining abilities and items. You can go a unique way that doesn't involve filling exp bars.
Advantages of not forcing vertical progression through exp are. Some might not be advantages to some.
Freedom to play how you like without pressure to do quest or repeat mob grinds.
World doesn't have to be thrown in the progression grinder and divided into weird and unrealistic level zones to be abandoned as the game matures.
You can play with your friend if they're newbies or vets and participate right away.
Game can be based on challenging areas. Combat in many MMORPGs feels the same no matter what level you are because you're always fighting the same scripted mobs around your level anyways.
No end game as your playing the game horizontally and not vertically.
Originally posted by dave6660 I think they should remove all the rewards from quests (XP, money and gear) that way both style become equally viable.
This I would LOVE to see! I'd like to see quests be more class/race/faction oreinted with their rewards.
As for Mob or Quest grinding, I guess grinding of any kind is not fun for me. I prefer quests that help me discover the world I am playing in, but having to quest in order to adventure is not the best way to do this, in my opinion. Also, questing, as it stands today, gets boring right out of the gate. Grind mob A, Grab Item X, Grind Mob B, Deliver Item Y, rinse and repeat throughout the rest of the game.
Mob grinding is no better for me. Your main reason is to level. You may also make money by selling loot to NPCs, or gather crafting materials. I do agree that mob grinding at least gives the player the choice of what, where, and who to kill while quest grinding is much more restrictive.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar I don't feel forced to do either. When I want to quest when I want wasn't to grind mobs I grind mobs when I want to go to as different area to do either I go.
The only game I've ever played that forced me to do something wad the starting area of swtor.
Generally though I prefer quests. GRinding mobs becomes boring much quicker for me than quests.
I agree, although mindless quests get old really quick too. I remember this leveling area in Anarchy Online where there are 5-6 different mobs in a straight line and people would group up and kill them over and over and over again, run down the line, then back to the beginning. It wasn't really difficult, hardly anyone ever died and it all just became mechanical. Attack, attack, attack, pick up winnings, run to the next mob over and over and over again for hours on end, just so you could keep leveling up. When you outlevel that spot, there's another one over there to do the same thing on. Lather, rinse, repeat.
I don't like either honestly. Obsession with vertical progression and themeparks only games lead to this problem.
It is not a problem if the game is structured like D3 .. just a series of tasks (with lots of choices & variation) aimed at progression.
Focused and get rid of all the distraction like stories, or what-not.
I think quest in MMORPG's are best when not forced.
In MMORPG the destination is more important then the journey... but let me throw these stories out there to stop you from getting there.
I don't think so at all. The only destination in most MMOs is endgame and I hate endgame with a passion, I won't play it. The only fun in MMOs is the adventure itself, the levelling journey. Beyond that, it's just a bunch of crap I want nothing to do with.
I like questing, it gives me a reason to grind mobs and gives extra exp and rewards.
Things go wrong, however, if you outgear the quests and don't really need any of the quest rewards or drops from the mobs you need to kill. At that point questing becomes tedious and dull. I love the feeling when i pick up a quest and see the rewards and upcoming upgrade to my gear. Otherwise it's just "Bah, i have to do this for the exp so i level up faster".
That's the problem in today's MMOs. Characters have too many and too easy quests giving stuff you don't really need, and then it becomes a grind.
I've played a good portion of the big MMORPGs released recently, and it seems like the majority of them implement the WoW "quest hub" model for leveling. Meaning that the leveling experience is primarily going from area to area, picking up the quests, doing them, rinse and repeat.
I know that they are doing this to reduce the "grind" of just killing MOBs for exp, and make the leveling experience more enjoyable. But to tell you the truth...I kind of prefer the old method of just grinding MOBs at this point.
At least when I grinded MOBs I could generally decide where to go, what MOBs to grind, what kind of grinding I would do etc. etc. I was actually driving my experience.
But with quest grinding...it just feels like I am running errands and I have hardly any control whatsoever. The novelty of the quest "story" dies down pretty fast since there are so many of them, and pretty soon it just feels like "go here, kill him." "Okay you're done? Now go here bring this guy this item." "Done that? Okay now go over here, put on this item, and kill this guy."
Over and over and over...
Personally, I would much rather just kill MOBs.
What do you guys think? Has quest grinding gotten to the point where MOB grinding is preferable?
Couldn't possible agree with you more, and for the exact reasons you listed.
The only thing i would add is another advantage of killing mobs is that its not tying you into some long quest that you have to finish before you get the reward. If i'm out killing mobs and my wife calls saying the car broke down and she needs help, i can quite literally stop instanlty and not have sacrificed any reward (maybe the particular mob im currently killing, but thats about the worst of it).
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Whether you have quest hubs or linear "quest gathering" ala SW-TOR or ESO, it becomes tedious.
By "quest gethering" what I mean is you have a major quest that requires you to travel some distance, and along the way all kinds of additional quests are "discovered". They have been placed there by the developers like bread crumbs for you to gather on your way to comlete that major quest. Your quest log grows and grows and it feels like you'll never progress.
It becomes tedious because you're constantly diverted from whatever you're doing and you never feel like you've accomlished anything until miraculously, days later, your quest log is nearly empty... which gives you a huge sense of relief... and then you come to the end of that major quest which has a solo-boss you can't possibly beat, or a group requirement you can't get other players to assist you with, or a situation where you need such and such an item, skill, or gear that you don't have... and you have to backtrack... or you've leveled three times and you need a trainer (e.g., SW-TOR and many other games), but you're ten-to-fifteen minutes of PHYSICAL traveling time away from a trainer, and without the additional skills you'll never complete that quest...
The games are deliberately designed with those kinds of timesinks to make leveling take longer. It's tedious, not fun; it starts out fun, but quickly becomes an irritant.
But, Mob grinding is not a lot of fun either. It's sort of the question: "Would you rather play WoW or Lineage 2?"
I don't like either honestly. Obsession with vertical progression and themeparks only games lead to this problem.
It is not a problem if the game is structured like D3 .. just a series of tasks (with lots of choices & variation) aimed at progression.
Focused and get rid of all the distraction like stories, or what-not.
I think quest in MMORPG's are best when not forced.
In MMORPG the destination is more important then the journey... but let me throw these stories out there to stop you from getting there.
I don't think so at all. The only destination in most MMOs is endgame and I hate endgame with a passion, I won't play it. The only fun in MMOs is the adventure itself, the levelling journey. Beyond that, it's just a bunch of crap I want nothing to do with.
If you want cool end game or high level powers/areas/items or whatever you have to finish this story. You want to play with your higher level friends you better finish this story. There are psychological urges for most gamers in vertical progression MMORPGs.
If the quests are voiced AND interesting I prefer quests, it's a good way to introduce the world and the lore for the player. If the quests are bad and uninteresting I'd prefer mob grinding, but I doubt I'd play mob-grind-only for very long. A mmorpg should have both, especially if it already has quests, because all you have to do is let mob kills give enough XP to be a valid leveling method.
I love many of the quests in ESO, but others are quite boring. This game should absolutely have mob grinding as a valid way to level up so you can pick the quests you like and forget the rest while compensating with mob grind. Or grind mobs only if you like that, but I guess the devs are viewing their own game very story centric and lore centric so they are hesitant to crank up mob XP because half of the game is in story and quests?
In WoW style games I prefer the quest grind because all you really do is click accept, then grind mobs anyway while getting the quest done at the same time and essentially it's just bonus XP while grinding, though I'm not sure if I would play that kind of game anymore. I liked TERA combat very much but the quest/mob grind killed it for me, it just got boring as heck at lvl20 and the world felt soulless endless mob farm.
All else being equal I would just grind mobs. Unfortunately grinding quests is much more efficient and gets your character better equipment.
I think they should remove all the rewards from quests (XP, money and gear) that way both style become equally viable.
Well you only get better gear by questing because they design it that way.
If you look at original EQ, there were tons of overworld mobs that dropped excellent items. The primary way to get better loot was to grab a few friends (GASP!!!!!!!!!!!! WORK TOGETHER?!?!?!?!!! MADNESS) and go to a dungeon where you not only got better XP, but then had a chance at loot. Yes it was more challenging, but with greater risk came greater reward (Risk? REWARD?!!!! /mind explosion).
PS. The snarky comments weren't directed at you btw, just people who want to on rails ez mode welfare epics style of gameplay.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
Mob grinding gets boring even faster. I don't understand the argument about freedom though. If your only option is to grind mobs, you don't have any more freedom than in a quest based MMO. You still grind preallocated level appropriate spots.
WoW is a themepark with quest hubs. EQ was a themepark with mob camps. Same thing. They are both on "rails" as some people like to put it. I personally prefer questing. It sure gets boring especially if you don't pay attention to the story. But it is still better. In ESO the quests have interesting back stories.
However, I think WoW did the levelling brilliantly. I have never enjoyed the levelling up process in any other MMO so much. I levelled two heroes to level 60 when the game launched and I was not bored at ANY SINGLE POINT! It was brilliant. Quests were interesting and everything felt rewarding and addictive. Even just killing mobs in WoW felt rewarding. Mobs gave very good experience and a lot of them dropped greens quite often.
For some reason levelling in other MMOs is extremely tedious. I can't even level up one char halfway through to max level without getting extremely bored.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Mob grinding gets boring even faster. I don't understand the argument about freedom though. If your only option is to grind mobs, you don't have any more freedom than in a quest based MMO. You still grind preallocated level appropriate spots.
WoW is a themepark with quest hubs. EQ was a themepark with mob camps. Same thing. They are both on "rails" as some people like to put it. I personally prefer questing. It sure gets boring especially if you don't pay attention to the story. But it is still better. In ESO the quests have interesting back stories.
However, I think WoW did the levelling brilliantly. I have never enjoyed the levelling up process in any other MMO so much. I levelled two heroes to level 60 when the game launched and I was not bored at ANY SINGLE POINT! It was brilliant. Quests were interesting and everything felt rewarding and addictive. Even just killing mobs in WoW felt rewarding. Mobs gave very good experience and a lot of them dropped greens quite often.
For some reason levelling in other MMOs is extremely tedious. I can't even level up one char halfway through to max level without getting extremely bored.
Not exactly. EQ had a number of places and different type of mobs. Depending on your class, group, how you played certain mobs worked better. Cleric could do undead, Druid out doors kiting or a group might go to a dungeon. You also generally had more locations to level because EQ even had mixed zones with high and low level stuff. But I agree that mob grinding probably gets boring faster. I think people are just really burned out on questing after 10 years of nearly 100% of MMORPGs forcing you progress by questing the most idiotic quest in a lot of cases.
Mob grinding gets boring even faster. I don't understand the argument about freedom though. If your only option is to grind mobs, you don't have any more freedom than in a quest based MMO. You still grind preallocated level appropriate spots.
WoW is a themepark with quest hubs. EQ was a themepark with mob camps. Same thing. They are both on "rails" as some people like to put it. I personally prefer questing. It sure gets boring especially if you don't pay attention to the story. But it is still better. In ESO the quests have interesting back stories.
However, I think WoW did the levelling brilliantly. I have never enjoyed the levelling up process in any other MMO so much. I levelled two heroes to level 60 when the game launched and I was not bored at ANY SINGLE POINT! It was brilliant. Quests were interesting and everything felt rewarding and addictive. Even just killing mobs in WoW felt rewarding. Mobs gave very good experience and a lot of them dropped greens quite often.
For some reason levelling in other MMOs is extremely tedious. I can't even level up one char halfway through to max level without getting extremely bored.
Not exactly. EQ had a number of places and different type of mobs. Depending on your class, group, how you played certain mobs worked better. Cleric could do undead, Druid out doors kiting or a group might go to a dungeon. You also generally had more locations to level because EQ even had mixed zones with high and low level stuff. But I agree that mob grinding probably gets boring faster. I think people are just really burned out on questing after 10 years of nearly 100% of MMORPGs forcing you progress by questing the most idiotic quest in a lot of cases.
True but it is still kind of predetermined. Even in WoW you always had 3-4 completely different zones you could be in. You didn't have to go down a super strict path.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Mob grinding gets boring even faster. I don't understand the argument about freedom though. If your only option is to grind mobs, you don't have any more freedom than in a quest based MMO. You still grind preallocated level appropriate spots.
WoW is a themepark with quest hubs. EQ was a themepark with mob camps. Same thing. They are both on "rails" as some people like to put it. I personally prefer questing. It sure gets boring especially if you don't pay attention to the story. But it is still better. In ESO the quests have interesting back stories.
However, I think WoW did the levelling brilliantly. I have never enjoyed the levelling up process in any other MMO so much. I levelled two heroes to level 60 when the game launched and I was not bored at ANY SINGLE POINT! It was brilliant. Quests were interesting and everything felt rewarding and addictive. Even just killing mobs in WoW felt rewarding. Mobs gave very good experience and a lot of them dropped greens quite often.
For some reason levelling in other MMOs is extremely tedious. I can't even level up one char halfway through to max level without getting extremely bored.
Not exactly. EQ had a number of places and different type of mobs. Depending on your class, group, how you played certain mobs worked better. Cleric could do undead, Druid out doors kiting or a group might go to a dungeon. You also generally had more locations to level because EQ even had mixed zones with high and low level stuff. But I agree that mob grinding probably gets boring faster. I think people are just really burned out on questing after 10 years of nearly 100% of MMORPGs forcing you progress by questing the most idiotic quest in a lot of cases.
True but it is still kind of predetermined. Even in WoW you always had 3-4 completely different zones you could be in. You didn't have to go down a super strict path.
Yes, that's why I advocate neither. Just give me levelless games with horizontal progression
I was just explaining the freedom you generally got. Well at least in Everquest. There were more than 3-4 spots to level which is why people say there was freedom.
Didn't read whole thread, I shall not lie. Don't know if it was mentioned already, but I loved the way that FFXI did it. >_>: Group MOB grinding for xp. So was a bit of socializing as well as xp. Quest were just for novelties and some items here and there, no xp. I really wish we would get a game that looks quite decent, and goes along these lines of progression rather than quest hubs. I agree they do feel like running errands, and it gets quite old after about, an hour or two of it. :x Would much rather just kill things nonstop and get money from selling things that are dropped, and buy crafted gear.
I dont see how people can sit there and kill the same stuff for hours and hours and say that is better than questing. People claim to want to be immersed in the world, but yet 99% of people play to level as quickly as possible and miss at least 50% of the world. I agree some quests are mindless, but at least you get to experience various parts or the world. Also some quests have subtle humor / good stories built into them. I would not mind removing experience from games and strictly go for earning skill points or gear through questing / exploration / certain boss / mob kills, or even crafting / gathering. Some will say this forces you to quest / craft which is true, but why play a mmo if your just trying to rush to max level and miss most of the content anyways? End game in most MMOs is worse than most of the journies to get there.
when i first played WOW coming from SWG the leveling thru quests was a nice change first, but i soon missed SWG's terminal missions. and i still do when playing themepark MMOs.
perhaps because i am more a mercenary type of player who likes to have the work done instead of the saviour of the galaxy guy (at least in MMO's - when everyone is special noone is special ;-)).
the nice thing on terminal missions in SWG were that you could select your "quest" from randomly generated missions according to your needs. need to have good standing with jabba the hutt to get into his palace for your privateer pilot carreer?- do some mission killing lady valarian's mobs (the opposing crime faction on tatooine). there were hunting parties going off every 30-60 minutes from anchorhead, where people met and grouped (20 man groups) to get better paid and more difficult missions (squill hunting ftw). you need a baby rancor to tame - take some rancor missions on dathomir to get your new pet (if you survive ;-)). during the jedi grind fests the terminal mission groups were the major XP-grind for jedi. need better standing with the empire - do some faction missions from the imperial terminals.
you didnt get special quest XP from the terminal missions (that was introduced later in the NGE times), only from the mobs you killed.
but i guess until i find a nice new sandbox game i have to live with the questing.
i played 3 or 4 years of ultima online, there wasnt 1 quest in that game, i think i prefer it that way also, forced exploration and grinding mobs was fun enough not to need any other leveling method back then, but with today's almost forced questing type model, most people who started playing mmo's in the last 10 years dont know anything different.
Imo, a lot of MMO games shouldn't have been MMORPGs, but rather RPGs(or sth else). Let's make a list:
-> What has swtor done to earn its mmorpg title? How about RPG?
-> What has ESO done to earn its mmorpg title? How about RPG?
-> What has LoTRO done to earn its mmorpg title? How about RPG?
-> What has post TBC wow done to earn its mmorpg title? How about RPG?
-> ...
As is visible, almost all of those games should've been either singleplayers with coop mode(TOR, ESO, LoTRO) or singleplayer games with multiplayer based on lobbies(post TBC wow, Rift, ...). The sad truth:
There is VERY few real MMORPGs.
That is just semantics. Sure, there are very few old traditional MMORPGs.
Why is it sad? It is just how the market regulates what entertainment gets made .. it is no sadder than all the cool marvel movies being made.
And whether it is sad is just a matter of perspective. I prefer single player RPGs with co-op mode. The only reason i play some MMORPGs is because they are now single player RPGs with co-op mode. It is a good thing for me.
Imo, a lot of MMO games shouldn't have been MMORPGs, but rather RPGs(or sth else). Let's make a list:
-> What has swtor done to earn its mmorpg title? How about RPG?
-> What has ESO done to earn its mmorpg title? How about RPG?
-> What has LoTRO done to earn its mmorpg title? How about RPG?
-> What has post TBC wow done to earn its mmorpg title? How about RPG?
-> ...
As is visible, almost all of those games should've been either singleplayers with coop mode(TOR, ESO, LoTRO) or singleplayer games with multiplayer based on lobbies(post TBC wow, Rift, ...). The sad truth:
There is VERY few real MMORPGs.
That is just semantics. Sure, there are very few old traditional MMORPGs.
Why is it sad? It is just how the market regulates what entertainment gets made .. it is no sadder than all the cool marvel movies being made.
And whether it is sad is just a matter of perspective. I prefer single player RPGs with co-op mode. The only reason i play some MMORPGs is because they are now single player RPGs with co-op mode. It is a good thing for me.
The market has been artificially skewed for years. It's all based on what worked for one company, one game. What did the desires of a few million players mean to 13 million subscribers? Production of newer generation older games stopped and originality was reduced to a twist. A decade of emulation has yielded failures and disappointments. Most MMORPGs not matching the numbers EQ put up and being ordinarily niche just like other MMORPGs before them.
Comments
I prefer mob grinding. Now, if it's just purely mob grinding for the sake of it, or quest grinding for the sake of it, I don't mind either. However, I consider the game having a good job/crafting system to be the catalyst to having mob grinding being way superior. With diverse resource gathering requirements, material gathering through mob grinding ends up spreading out over the map and makes the game feel much more alive. The economy also kicks in with trading of those materials. Quest grinding streamlines the process and more often than not, destroys early crafting; progression in those jobs end up feeling a heavier grind since quest rewards gives you gear that you should be have been crafting.
Or they can just do what D3 does. Give a bounty ... no pretense that it is a quest with text. No fed-ex quest. No escort quest.
Just pure kill stuff, always with a boss (or a mini-boss) at the end.
The fun is in the challenging combat & rewards.
Or they can make it more like a SP game with better scripting, characters and stories.
Either way is fine with me.
I don't like either honestly. Obsession with vertical progression and themeparks only games lead to this problem.
Quest are good in moderation. It was a refreshing way to level after grinding mobs for years. I just don't like being forced into a mass of them as the only means of progression. The quest then just become another grind and the story becomes secondary or ignored.
Quest must be quest!!!!!! I don't need task thrown in as quest just to extend content hours. Kill rats and get rat tails just because is not quest. That's a task IMO. I rather do 20 long quest with one for each level then 500 quest and task to get to level 50.
Mob grind can be boring as well. You are not tied to task but you're killing the same mobs over and over. The game with the best mob grind was EQ IMO because it has interesting scripting. I also liked the freedom it gave that I don't seem to be funneled as much.
My opinion is to just get rid of traditional leveling with exp gains. ESO for example. They have good quest generally but leveling an alt or two in the same faction becomes overwhelming and I like alts. There are probably too many quest. I walk into Stormhaven and there's human sacrafices, devil worshiping and all kinds of mayhem with people begging for help every five feet it seems. I can feel the quest grind creeping on me.
There are other means of progression. You can go to time based systems like Age of Wushu. You can have use based systems like UO has/had where you do stuff and you get better(though macro can be a problem). You can go the Legend of Zelda route where you advance by gaining abilities and items. You can go a unique way that doesn't involve filling exp bars.
Advantages of not forcing vertical progression through exp are. Some might not be advantages to some.
It is not a problem if the game is structured like D3 .. just a series of tasks (with lots of choices & variation) aimed at progression.
Focused and get rid of all the distraction like stories, or what-not.
I think quest in MMORPG's are best when not forced.
In MMORPG the destination is more important then the journey... but let me throw these stories out there to stop you from getting there.
As for Mob or Quest grinding, I guess grinding of any kind is not fun for me. I prefer quests that help me discover the world I am playing in, but having to quest in order to adventure is not the best way to do this, in my opinion. Also, questing, as it stands today, gets boring right out of the gate. Grind mob A, Grab Item X, Grind Mob B, Deliver Item Y, rinse and repeat throughout the rest of the game.
Mob grinding is no better for me. Your main reason is to level. You may also make money by selling loot to NPCs, or gather crafting materials. I do agree that mob grinding at least gives the player the choice of what, where, and who to kill while quest grinding is much more restrictive.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I agree, although mindless quests get old really quick too. I remember this leveling area in Anarchy Online where there are 5-6 different mobs in a straight line and people would group up and kill them over and over and over again, run down the line, then back to the beginning. It wasn't really difficult, hardly anyone ever died and it all just became mechanical. Attack, attack, attack, pick up winnings, run to the next mob over and over and over again for hours on end, just so you could keep leveling up. When you outlevel that spot, there's another one over there to do the same thing on. Lather, rinse, repeat.
No thanks. That's not fun.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I don't think so at all. The only destination in most MMOs is endgame and I hate endgame with a passion, I won't play it. The only fun in MMOs is the adventure itself, the levelling journey. Beyond that, it's just a bunch of crap I want nothing to do with.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I just want to be thrown in a big huge virtual world. Let me find my own way around.
No levels, maybe make skills something you randomly find and discover while out adventuring in that big wide world.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
I like questing, it gives me a reason to grind mobs and gives extra exp and rewards.
Things go wrong, however, if you outgear the quests and don't really need any of the quest rewards or drops from the mobs you need to kill. At that point questing becomes tedious and dull. I love the feeling when i pick up a quest and see the rewards and upcoming upgrade to my gear. Otherwise it's just "Bah, i have to do this for the exp so i level up faster".
That's the problem in today's MMOs. Characters have too many and too easy quests giving stuff you don't really need, and then it becomes a grind.
Couldn't possible agree with you more, and for the exact reasons you listed.
The only thing i would add is another advantage of killing mobs is that its not tying you into some long quest that you have to finish before you get the reward. If i'm out killing mobs and my wife calls saying the car broke down and she needs help, i can quite literally stop instanlty and not have sacrificed any reward (maybe the particular mob im currently killing, but thats about the worst of it).
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
Whether you have quest hubs or linear "quest gathering" ala SW-TOR or ESO, it becomes tedious.
By "quest gethering" what I mean is you have a major quest that requires you to travel some distance, and along the way all kinds of additional quests are "discovered". They have been placed there by the developers like bread crumbs for you to gather on your way to comlete that major quest. Your quest log grows and grows and it feels like you'll never progress.
It becomes tedious because you're constantly diverted from whatever you're doing and you never feel like you've accomlished anything until miraculously, days later, your quest log is nearly empty... which gives you a huge sense of relief... and then you come to the end of that major quest which has a solo-boss you can't possibly beat, or a group requirement you can't get other players to assist you with, or a situation where you need such and such an item, skill, or gear that you don't have... and you have to backtrack... or you've leveled three times and you need a trainer (e.g., SW-TOR and many other games), but you're ten-to-fifteen minutes of PHYSICAL traveling time away from a trainer, and without the additional skills you'll never complete that quest...
The games are deliberately designed with those kinds of timesinks to make leveling take longer. It's tedious, not fun; it starts out fun, but quickly becomes an irritant.
But, Mob grinding is not a lot of fun either. It's sort of the question: "Would you rather play WoW or Lineage 2?"
If you want cool end game or high level powers/areas/items or whatever you have to finish this story. You want to play with your higher level friends you better finish this story. There are psychological urges for most gamers in vertical progression MMORPGs.
If the quests are voiced AND interesting I prefer quests, it's a good way to introduce the world and the lore for the player. If the quests are bad and uninteresting I'd prefer mob grinding, but I doubt I'd play mob-grind-only for very long. A mmorpg should have both, especially if it already has quests, because all you have to do is let mob kills give enough XP to be a valid leveling method.
I love many of the quests in ESO, but others are quite boring. This game should absolutely have mob grinding as a valid way to level up so you can pick the quests you like and forget the rest while compensating with mob grind. Or grind mobs only if you like that, but I guess the devs are viewing their own game very story centric and lore centric so they are hesitant to crank up mob XP because half of the game is in story and quests?
In WoW style games I prefer the quest grind because all you really do is click accept, then grind mobs anyway while getting the quest done at the same time and essentially it's just bonus XP while grinding, though I'm not sure if I would play that kind of game anymore. I liked TERA combat very much but the quest/mob grind killed it for me, it just got boring as heck at lvl20 and the world felt soulless endless mob farm.
Well you only get better gear by questing because they design it that way.
If you look at original EQ, there were tons of overworld mobs that dropped excellent items. The primary way to get better loot was to grab a few friends (GASP!!!!!!!!!!!! WORK TOGETHER?!?!?!?!!! MADNESS) and go to a dungeon where you not only got better XP, but then had a chance at loot. Yes it was more challenging, but with greater risk came greater reward (Risk? REWARD?!!!! /mind explosion).
PS. The snarky comments weren't directed at you btw, just people who want to on rails ez mode welfare epics style of gameplay.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
Mob grinding gets boring even faster. I don't understand the argument about freedom though. If your only option is to grind mobs, you don't have any more freedom than in a quest based MMO. You still grind preallocated level appropriate spots.
WoW is a themepark with quest hubs. EQ was a themepark with mob camps. Same thing. They are both on "rails" as some people like to put it. I personally prefer questing. It sure gets boring especially if you don't pay attention to the story. But it is still better. In ESO the quests have interesting back stories.
However, I think WoW did the levelling brilliantly. I have never enjoyed the levelling up process in any other MMO so much. I levelled two heroes to level 60 when the game launched and I was not bored at ANY SINGLE POINT! It was brilliant. Quests were interesting and everything felt rewarding and addictive. Even just killing mobs in WoW felt rewarding. Mobs gave very good experience and a lot of them dropped greens quite often.
For some reason levelling in other MMOs is extremely tedious. I can't even level up one char halfway through to max level without getting extremely bored.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Not exactly. EQ had a number of places and different type of mobs. Depending on your class, group, how you played certain mobs worked better. Cleric could do undead, Druid out doors kiting or a group might go to a dungeon. You also generally had more locations to level because EQ even had mixed zones with high and low level stuff. But I agree that mob grinding probably gets boring faster. I think people are just really burned out on questing after 10 years of nearly 100% of MMORPGs forcing you progress by questing the most idiotic quest in a lot of cases.
True but it is still kind of predetermined. Even in WoW you always had 3-4 completely different zones you could be in. You didn't have to go down a super strict path.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Yes, that's why I advocate neither. Just give me levelless games with horizontal progression
I was just explaining the freedom you generally got. Well at least in Everquest. There were more than 3-4 spots to level which is why people say there was freedom.
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when i first played WOW coming from SWG the leveling thru quests was a nice change first, but i soon missed SWG's terminal missions. and i still do when playing themepark MMOs.
perhaps because i am more a mercenary type of player who likes to have the work done instead of the saviour of the galaxy guy (at least in MMO's - when everyone is special noone is special ;-)).
the nice thing on terminal missions in SWG were that you could select your "quest" from randomly generated missions according to your needs. need to have good standing with jabba the hutt to get into his palace for your privateer pilot carreer?- do some mission killing lady valarian's mobs (the opposing crime faction on tatooine). there were hunting parties going off every 30-60 minutes from anchorhead, where people met and grouped (20 man groups) to get better paid and more difficult missions (squill hunting ftw). you need a baby rancor to tame - take some rancor missions on dathomir to get your new pet (if you survive ;-)). during the jedi grind fests the terminal mission groups were the major XP-grind for jedi. need better standing with the empire - do some faction missions from the imperial terminals.
you didnt get special quest XP from the terminal missions (that was introduced later in the NGE times), only from the mobs you killed.
but i guess until i find a nice new sandbox game i have to live with the questing.
That is just semantics. Sure, there are very few old traditional MMORPGs.
Why is it sad? It is just how the market regulates what entertainment gets made .. it is no sadder than all the cool marvel movies being made.
And whether it is sad is just a matter of perspective. I prefer single player RPGs with co-op mode. The only reason i play some MMORPGs is because they are now single player RPGs with co-op mode. It is a good thing for me.
The market has been artificially skewed for years. It's all based on what worked for one company, one game. What did the desires of a few million players mean to 13 million subscribers? Production of newer generation older games stopped and originality was reduced to a twist. A decade of emulation has yielded failures and disappointments. Most MMORPGs not matching the numbers EQ put up and being ordinarily niche just like other MMORPGs before them.