I prefer MOB Grinding, with some meaningful epic quests here and there.
btw Is there a decent modern MOBginding game out there?
Yes, great one .. Diablo 3.
You earn bounties by hunting different mobs. No lore, no quests as excuse to kill stuff. Just rewards, and challenging fun combat (if you so choose to).
Narius, you might want to tone down the "Diablo evangelism". Seeing as you bring up the game up such a many threads, you're beginning to sound like a shill.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Mob grind is way worse of the two. Apart from resource gathering, its got to be the most primitive content an MMO can have. Everything from finding spawns to camping respawns to fighting over spawns is everything I wasn't prepared to see in an MMORPGs when I first tried them.
Many old games revolved around this and I couldn't be any more disinterested. I was appalled by how many people actually enjoyed it past the point where the novelty wore off. It was not even challenging! Combat was based on the age-old straight and true, braindead tank 'n' spank and everything could be overcome with more grind.
It is the closes thing to a hamster wheel I've seen in a game. This is why I loathe those old-school MMORPGs. In my mind, there are not enough redeeming qualities to apologize for this abysmal gameplay and metagame. Every player who tried and played those games should look back and think "never again".
With what they know now, I doubt many would play a similar game today. ...or if they would, I would be very disheartened by how low they have set their bar.
How have quests improved any of this? The fights are the same tank n spank, the mob AI is still completely predictable and win percentage against an even level ordinary mob is probably close to 99.9%.
I fail to see the difference between killing 20 rats of my own volition vs an NPC with a "!" over his head telling me to do the same. Do these fights suddenly become more exciting and less "braindead" because you're on a quest?
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Mob grind is way worse of the two. Apart from resource gathering, its got to be the most primitive content an MMO can have. Everything from finding spawns to camping respawns to fighting over spawns is everything I wasn't prepared to see in an MMORPGs when I first tried them.
Many old games revolved around this and I couldn't be any more disinterested. I was appalled by how many people actually enjoyed it past the point where the novelty wore off. It was not even challenging! Combat was based on the age-old straight and true, braindead tank 'n' spank and everything could be overcome with more grind.
It is the closes thing to a hamster wheel I've seen in a game. This is why I loathe those old-school MMORPGs. In my mind, there are not enough redeeming qualities to apologize for this abysmal gameplay and metagame. Every player who tried and played those games should look back and think "never again".
With what they know now, I doubt many would play a similar game today. ...or if they would, I would be very disheartened by how low they have set their bar.
How have quests improved any of this? The fights are the same tank n spank, the mob AI is still completely predictable and win percentage against an even level ordinary mob is probably close to 99.9%.
I fail to see the difference between killing 20 rats of my own volition vs an NPC with a "!" over his head telling me to do the same. Do these fights suddenly become more exciting and less "braindead" because you're on a quest?
It is my opinion that it is more brain dead to be on a quest because it shows you exactly where to go on the map and exactly how to get back. It is a nice convenience, but it is not a good thing for the brain IMO. It teaches us to be lazy and not memorize the layout of different areas. It also kills exploration almost entirely. I'm also of the opinion that I am too lazy to turn said option off if it's available. It has to be something that is forced on me to do it. It's the same with instant travel. If it's there I'm going to use it. Not because it's better, but because I'm too lazy to walk there. It's something that needs to be a requirement IMO. I'd also rather choose to kill some rats myself and sell their parts to a vendor for cash then to have an NPC tell me explicitly to do it. The only drawback is that you miss out on some story, but that is dependent on weather or not the story is good. Since you are trying to appeal to a mass audience it's hard to make a good story that appeals to everyone. In fact it's probably almost impossible to do so.
I don't think random encounter are good in MMORPGs ,
it work well on turn base or instanced battle in single player game but it again the natural of multiplayer so we can't hope it work well.
Possible have mobs guard the way through city to city , but you need to sacrifice the freedom to move around . The roads design need to be like dungeon so player can't strip the encounter
Though random encounters wasn't nice idea for MMORPG , random spawn do work on same mechanic
I think random spawn will work , it keep player moving around the world to hunt the mobs , pretty much nice way to break the "stay in one place" grind.
But it hard to test if the idea work or not .
Though i like the idea of random spawn , monster don't wait in one place for you to kill them , you have to find them.
I agree with you, but part of the mechanics could be implemented.
You could have it so that health and magic will not regenerate naturally over time. This will require you to come back to town and rest at an inn or make a camp of some sort.
This would mean that you would have to plan your trips carefully and couldn't just sit and camp mobs. You would have to periodically leave to go back to town and rest or gather the necessary tools to build a camp.
Something like old RPG where you have back to the town to rest (heal) after fight with monster ? That's nice element for RPG ,
though some said they not like to have downtime , but they also said "people don't know what they want" lol
The downtime pretty much help to less the bots active , if you allow player to camp endless then you just welcome the bots .
The older game's had quests. Anarchy Online gave you the Adonis quest line. It was long and involved took most of the duration of your stay in that zone to complete, but when it was done, it gave you one of the best items in the game for your level, in fact, it lasted all the way until endgame.
Now we don't grind quests. The reality is that we grind errands.
Mob grind is way worse of the two. Apart from resource gathering, its got to be the most primitive content an MMO can have. Everything from finding spawns to camping respawns to fighting over spawns is everything I wasn't prepared to see in an MMORPGs when I first tried them.
Many old games revolved around this and I couldn't be any more disinterested. I was appalled by how many people actually enjoyed it past the point where the novelty wore off. It was not even challenging! Combat was based on the age-old straight and true, braindead tank 'n' spank and everything could be overcome with more grind.
It is the closes thing to a hamster wheel I've seen in a game. This is why I loathe those old-school MMORPGs. In my mind, there are not enough redeeming qualities to apologize for this abysmal gameplay and metagame. Every player who tried and played those games should look back and think "never again".
With what they know now, I doubt many would play a similar game today. ...or if they would, I would be very disheartened by how low they have set their bar.
How have quests improved any of this? The fights are the same tank n spank, the mob AI is still completely predictable and win percentage against an even level ordinary mob is probably close to 99.9%.
I fail to see the difference between killing 20 rats of my own volition vs an NPC with a "!" over his head telling me to do the same. Do these fights suddenly become more exciting and less "braindead" because you're on a quest?
Yes. Quests make fights less braindead.
Take character builds for example. They are driven by the metagame and the objective of the game. While the metagame in a quest-based game can be as bad as in a grinding game (tank 'n' spank) its objectives are much more varied. "Defend this point", "get there as quickly as you can", "steal this", "survive that", "escort this character"... the character and team-builds become much more varied. You don't even have to have monsters in those quests. The quest might be a puzzle or the environment could provide the challenge.
You play a pen & paper RPG and one thing you will never see is grind. As a GM, if you simply throw in bigger and bigger monsters on the field for the players to kill with no context, the game becomes boring fairly quickly.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I liked the original EQ style of leveling more than anything to be honest. A group at a camp in a non-instanced zone killing mobs. It was even better when there were potential named mob spawns at the camp that had valuable drops. Just hanging out, chatting, killing stuff. I'd take that over solo quest farming any day.
Mob grind is way worse of the two. Apart from resource gathering, its got to be the most primitive content an MMO can have. Everything from finding spawns to camping respawns to fighting over spawns is everything I wasn't prepared to see in an MMORPGs when I first tried them.
Many old games revolved around this and I couldn't be any more disinterested. I was appalled by how many people actually enjoyed it past the point where the novelty wore off. It was not even challenging! Combat was based on the age-old straight and true, braindead tank 'n' spank and everything could be overcome with more grind.
It is the closes thing to a hamster wheel I've seen in a game. This is why I loathe those old-school MMORPGs. In my mind, there are not enough redeeming qualities to apologize for this abysmal gameplay and metagame. Every player who tried and played those games should look back and think "never again".
With what they know now, I doubt many would play a similar game today. ...or if they would, I would be very disheartened by how low they have set their bar.
How have quests improved any of this? The fights are the same tank n spank, the mob AI is still completely predictable and win percentage against an even level ordinary mob is probably close to 99.9%.
I fail to see the difference between killing 20 rats of my own volition vs an NPC with a "!" over his head telling me to do the same. Do these fights suddenly become more exciting and less "braindead" because you're on a quest?
Yes. Quests make fights less braindead.
Take character builds for example. They are driven by the metagame and the objective of the game. While the metagame in a quest-based game can be as bad as in a grinding game (tank 'n' spank) its objectives are much more varied. "Defend this point", "get there as quickly as you can", "steal this", "survive that", "escort this character"... the character and team-builds become much more varied. You don't even have to have monsters in those quests. The quest might be a puzzle or the environment could provide the challenge.
You play a pen & paper RPG and one thing you will never see is grind. As a GM, if you simply throw in bigger and bigger monsters on the field for the players to kill with no context, the game becomes boring fairly quickly.
You say varied, but I say its only "varied" because AI for NPC's are so limited and stupid its boring. Look at Monster Hunter to see how to do mob AI, as well as how it should be expanded on.
It might not be the best, the AI in the end isn't that bright but a player has to learn each monster before they are able to really fight it well.
While I do like Mob grinding better, grouping to fight mobs was very annoying when the player base was above your level. You had little to no incentive to help a lower level player out. Hence why MMOs have gravitated towards "End Game" because it creates a field where everyone is of similar level with similar goals.
Not trying to sound like a Shill but again they could take another look at what they did in Monster Hunter. Even if you had better gear that someone lower than you, you could still fight a monster of the same rank because you used monster parts to create different weapons.
So while your current equipment might be overly strong compared to the monster your fighting, you still need to fight that monster so you can create a new set of gear for a different play style.
Mob grind is way worse of the two. Apart from resource gathering, its got to be the most primitive content an MMO can have. Everything from finding spawns to camping respawns to fighting over spawns is everything I wasn't prepared to see in an MMORPGs when I first tried them.
Many old games revolved around this and I couldn't be any more disinterested. I was appalled by how many people actually enjoyed it past the point where the novelty wore off. It was not even challenging! Combat was based on the age-old straight and true, braindead tank 'n' spank and everything could be overcome with more grind.
It is the closes thing to a hamster wheel I've seen in a game. This is why I loathe those old-school MMORPGs. In my mind, there are not enough redeeming qualities to apologize for this abysmal gameplay and metagame. Every player who tried and played those games should look back and think "never again".
With what they know now, I doubt many would play a similar game today. ...or if they would, I would be very disheartened by how low they have set their bar.
How have quests improved any of this? The fights are the same tank n spank, the mob AI is still completely predictable and win percentage against an even level ordinary mob is probably close to 99.9%.
I fail to see the difference between killing 20 rats of my own volition vs an NPC with a "!" over his head telling me to do the same. Do these fights suddenly become more exciting and less "braindead" because you're on a quest?
Yes. Quests make fights less braindead.
Take character builds for example. They are driven by the metagame and the objective of the game. While the metagame in a quest-based game can be as bad as in a grinding game (tank 'n' spank) its objectives are much more varied. "Defend this point", "get there as quickly as you can", "steal this", "survive that", "escort this character"... the character and team-builds become much more varied. You don't even have to have monsters in those quests. The quest might be a puzzle or the environment could provide the challenge.
You play a pen & paper RPG and one thing you will never see is grind. As a GM, if you simply throw in bigger and bigger monsters on the field for the players to kill with no context, the game becomes boring fairly quickly.
You say varied, but I say its only "varied" because AI for NPC's are so limited and stupid its boring. Look at Monster Hunter to see how to do mob AI, as well as how it should be expanded on.
It might not be the best, the AI in the end isn't that bright but a player has to learn each monster before they are able to really fight it well.
While I do like Mob grinding better, grouping to fight mobs was very annoying when the player base was above your level. You had little to no incentive to help a lower level player out. Hence why MMOs have gravitated towards "End Game" because it creates a field where everyone is of similar level with similar goals.
Not trying to sound like a Shill but again they could take another look at what they did in Monster Hunter. Even if you had better gear that someone lower than you, you could still fight a monster of the same rank because you used monster parts to create different weapons.
So while your current equipment might be overly strong compared to the monster your fighting, you still need to fight that monster so you can create a new set of gear for a different play style.
Yes, AI could be better, but dave6660 contested my claim that quests make combat less braindead (combat being the same tank 'n' spank in both instances) to which I provided examples.
Combat can be made better, but not only do quests allow you to have directed content other than combat, but the right use of quests make combat even better.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I have no problem with questing as long as the quests are well written and not errand-type quests like "Kill 20", "Gather 20", and so on. The worst experience I ever had was in Silkroad Online. A quest told you to kill 500 monsters. Next step was kill 1000 and then the third repetition to kill 2000. And this was for mid level range.
What I do miss in todays MMOs is the option to kill strong monsters with a group. I loved games like DAoC and Lineage 2 for the grouping. Grouping made you very strong due to the group-utilities the players added. A Warrior in DAoC buffed by a Shaman and accelerated attack speed by a Healers Celerity transformed the Warrior into a killing machine. Same goes for Lineage 2 where a Destroyer Orc was able to do huge pulls, if he was buffed by a Orc Shaman and then received buffs of Swordsinger and Bladedancer.
To me, classes strengthening each other is one important aspect in a game. It makes for heroic stories, because grouped in one of the previously mentioned games you became able to kill monsters that exceeded your solo capabilities by far.
For example, I remember a pull in DAoC when we leveled in Trollheim very well. We pulled the wrong monster and in came a large group of ultra high level mobs. Somehow we managed to kill all these mobs. A pull that should have been a certain wipe.
Bottomline: Compared to oldschool MMORPGs, todays MMOs seem to miss the benefits of grouping that made up for experiencing heroic moments. Means, you actually experienced heroic moments. Todays MMORPGs only imply heroic moments. There are almost no real challenges.
What I like is objective grinding. This means I have something I am working towards hopefully something meaningful.
In EQ1 I spent ages grinding mobs at specific locations waiting for rare spawn or drop. Knowing that when I got said item it would ultimately result is something worthwhile and long lasting. Examples being my Armour of Ro et or my Epic. I never worried about "leveling" levels were just something that arrived while I was working on my objectives.
Modern MMORPGs and in many situations players have forgotten this suddenly exp and leveling became more important than anything else rewards became cheap you get a new sword and replace it with a newer sword 10 minute later.
This is the problem with quests at the moment non of them matter its also why people ar so focused on end game nothing in the journey has meaning. Whats the point in spending 2 hours exploring a dungeon (sorry forgot modern games 30 min tops) when the ultimate reward ie the +5 frostband sword of the vampire king which will be replaced by the first world mini quest where the farmer gives you his rusty sword +10 firebrand for killing 20 chickens.
But I digress all grinding is bad when all your doing is focusing on the numbers you need objectives reasons to grind without burning out.
The real point is not which is better but HOW it is done.Quests should NOT give xp,rewards are fine and do make sense but experience does not make any sense at all.FFXI is the only game that got that right,you gain rewards and/or favor with your nation or the whole world favor or perhaps just favor with that npc.
It falls under the same notion that you should not get xp for finding a new discovery or location.If you wanted you could give a whole different category for discovery xp but you should NEVER become a more experienced Warrior just because you set foot on a new piece of terrain.,it makes zero sense.
So in saying all this,grinding mobs is combat and combat is where you DO become a more experienced Warrior,so that is where you get xp from NOT quests.There should also be a separate experience/skill set for your various weapons,you should not gain a level and automatically be the best most proficient axe wielder the planet has ever seen.
You can use the word grindy or whatever else but it has no bearing on the fact that it should all make sense in a role playing manner ,even though these are just games we are role playing realistic features.
One more point that FFXI also got right was in the proficiency factor.If you could maintain a steady flow within a certain time limit you gained added xp,that makes sense because if you are more proficient with your skills you SHOULD be a more experienced Warrior that someone who is not as proficient.
One more factor....
Quests are ALWAYS laid out to have every player follow the exact same path,nothing is random or CHOICE,you just follow the game's choice set for you.Killing mobs can be totally random even including aggro fights you did not plan such as a boss spawning right on top of your party.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Originally posted by Gestankfaust The term grinding is where you all go wrong.
Now we are getting to the subject. Why there should be grinding, at all? Why there cannot be content for the player to scour through till hours of end with next to no grinding? Today's MMORPG players are pathetic demands-wise. Its like you people wait for a new MMORPG to follow the EQ model. (Grind your way to max level, raid dungeons, wait for patch, raid dungeons, do some time-sink geargrind mini instanced pvp if you so wish, wait for patch, raid dungeons etc etc). And the best part is, some of you are disappointed if it doesn't.
Oh well, the old model is apparently dying, since all these new typical themepark mmos that get published are either killed right off the bat or go f2p, I bet soon even publishers won't allow such products out (might be one of the reasons EQN & Titan were scrapped to be re-done in the first place)
I prefer MOB Grinding, with some meaningful epic quests here and there.
btw Is there a decent modern MOBginding game out there?
Yes, great one .. Diablo 3.
You earn bounties by hunting different mobs. No lore, no quests as excuse to kill stuff. Just rewards, and challenging fun combat (if you so choose to).
Narius, you might want to tone down the "Diablo evangelism". Seeing as you bring up the game up such a many threads, you're beginning to sound like a shill.
nah ... if the game fits the discussion, i will bring it up. I don't worry about what random people may think on the internet. Otherwise, i wouldn't have be so vocal about my playstyle, which is quite different from many here.
It is my opinion that it is more brain dead to be on a quest because it shows you exactly where to go on the map and exactly how to get back.
That has nothing to do with the level of challenge in combat.
Looking for stuff is easy-mode and boring. That is why it is cut out. I use to graph my own map back in the Might & Magic (yes, first one) days. It is not challenging, and i would much prefer to spend the time doing fun and challenging combat.
Now that my flash back of FFXI and the Valkrum Dunes has subsided I can respond with a hell no. I'd rather run quests with a couple friends than ever experience that hell ever again.
I do not think either is grinding if it is interesting and you do not have a surfeit of it. You need to space yourself. For instance SWTOR has wonderful quests because I enjoy the voice overs and they are interesting the quests like the things that Czerka hid and so on. You could have interesting mechanics to mobs making them less of a grind when you fight them But in all this the crucial thing to keep things fresh is not to overdo it. Play in moderation and there are no grinds.
Originally posted by Xzen Now that my flash back of FFXI and the Valkrum Dunes has subsided I can respond with a hell no. I'd rather run quests with a couple friends than ever experience that hell ever again.
The problem is ... nowadays quest grind MMORPGs , you rarely have friend to run quest with .
It even hard to start same quest with people that your ready known , left alone the strangers .
Originally posted by Gestankfaust The term grinding is where you all go wrong.
Now we are getting to the subject. Why there should be grinding, at all? Why there cannot be content for the player to scour through till hours of end with next to no grinding? Today's MMORPG players are pathetic demands-wise. Its like you people wait for a new MMORPG to follow the EQ model. (Grind your way to max level, raid dungeons, wait for patch, raid dungeons, do some time-sink geargrind mini instanced pvp if you so wish, wait for patch, raid dungeons etc etc). And the best part is, some of you are disappointed if it doesn't.
Oh well, the old model is apparently dying, since all these new typical themepark mmos that get published are either killed right off the bat or go f2p, I bet soon even publishers won't allow such products out (might be one of the reasons EQN & Titan were scrapped to be re-done in the first place)
In any MMORPG you are going to be doing some kind of repetitive action if you play it enough. This is due to the simple fact that players consume content far, far faster than developers create it. Even MMORPGs that employ a lot of player-generated content or procedural generation always wind up with lots of repetitive action. And many players refer to this repetitive action as grinding...sometimes negatively, sometimes not.
So it's all well and good to say "let's get rid of grinding!" But that's kind of meaningless...how can you possibly have an MMORPG with no repetitive action?
IMO, the key is to focus on making the game's repetitive actions fun, instead of trying to eliminate them all together. I feel that quests were an attempt to "mask" the MOB grind that people started to hate, but all they did was replace the MOB grind with another grind that was even more restrictive and linear than the MOB grind.
So quests took a repetitive action that wasn't very fun (MOB grinding) and replaced it with a repetitive action that is arguably less fun (quest grinding).
I think MMORPGs would be much better off if they just accept the fact that they are grindy by nature and focus on making all their different grinds really varied and enjoyable.
I could accept a MMO with medium/fast leveling speed as long as the quests are optional and the quests don't have GPS tracking.
The classes would need to be more varied then what I see in MMOs these days. Not in terms of how many ways you can customize each class, but in having classes that are actually unique and don't just have different types of DPS.
I'd also like to see the idea of not having your health/magic regenerate over time. You have to go back to town to rest at an inn, camp, etc. This would prevent grinding of mobs non stop.
The quests in Kingdom of Amalur are fairly good. It does have GPS, but the stories are usually fairly interesting at least.
I'd also prefer there to be no instances in most of the world. I can accept instanced dungeons if I have to, but not the outer areas.
The quests in Kingdom of Amalur are fairly good. It does have GPS, but the stories are usually fairly interesting at least.
Kingdom of Amalur is not a MMO .. but i guess that is close enough for you?
Who said that Kingdoms of Amalur wasn't an MMO? If the majority considers Kingdoms of Amalur to be an MMO, then it should be just as much an MMO as say Everquest and Ultima Online.
The quests in Kingdom of Amalur are fairly good. It does have GPS, but the stories are usually fairly interesting at least.
Kingdom of Amalur is not a MMO .. but i guess that is close enough for you?
LMAO.
This is truly gold coming from you.
MMO is just a modern term for video games. Language changes and evolves over time. Better catch up before you get left behind
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Comments
Narius, you might want to tone down the "Diablo evangelism". Seeing as you bring up the game up such a many threads, you're beginning to sound like a shill.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
How have quests improved any of this? The fights are the same tank n spank, the mob AI is still completely predictable and win percentage against an even level ordinary mob is probably close to 99.9%.
I fail to see the difference between killing 20 rats of my own volition vs an NPC with a "!" over his head telling me to do the same. Do these fights suddenly become more exciting and less "braindead" because you're on a quest?
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
It is my opinion that it is more brain dead to be on a quest because it shows you exactly where to go on the map and exactly how to get back. It is a nice convenience, but it is not a good thing for the brain IMO. It teaches us to be lazy and not memorize the layout of different areas. It also kills exploration almost entirely. I'm also of the opinion that I am too lazy to turn said option off if it's available. It has to be something that is forced on me to do it. It's the same with instant travel. If it's there I'm going to use it. Not because it's better, but because I'm too lazy to walk there. It's something that needs to be a requirement IMO. I'd also rather choose to kill some rats myself and sell their parts to a vendor for cash then to have an NPC tell me explicitly to do it. The only drawback is that you miss out on some story, but that is dependent on weather or not the story is good. Since you are trying to appeal to a mass audience it's hard to make a good story that appeals to everyone. In fact it's probably almost impossible to do so.
Something like old RPG where you have back to the town to rest (heal) after fight with monster ? That's nice element for RPG ,
though some said they not like to have downtime , but they also said "people don't know what they want" lol
The downtime pretty much help to less the bots active , if you allow player to camp endless then you just welcome the bots .
The older game's had quests. Anarchy Online gave you the Adonis quest line. It was long and involved took most of the duration of your stay in that zone to complete, but when it was done, it gave you one of the best items in the game for your level, in fact, it lasted all the way until endgame.
Now we don't grind quests. The reality is that we grind errands.
Yes. Quests make fights less braindead.
Take character builds for example. They are driven by the metagame and the objective of the game. While the metagame in a quest-based game can be as bad as in a grinding game (tank 'n' spank) its objectives are much more varied. "Defend this point", "get there as quickly as you can", "steal this", "survive that", "escort this character"... the character and team-builds become much more varied. You don't even have to have monsters in those quests. The quest might be a puzzle or the environment could provide the challenge.
You play a pen & paper RPG and one thing you will never see is grind. As a GM, if you simply throw in bigger and bigger monsters on the field for the players to kill with no context, the game becomes boring fairly quickly.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
You say varied, but I say its only "varied" because AI for NPC's are so limited and stupid its boring. Look at Monster Hunter to see how to do mob AI, as well as how it should be expanded on.
It might not be the best, the AI in the end isn't that bright but a player has to learn each monster before they are able to really fight it well.
While I do like Mob grinding better, grouping to fight mobs was very annoying when the player base was above your level. You had little to no incentive to help a lower level player out. Hence why MMOs have gravitated towards "End Game" because it creates a field where everyone is of similar level with similar goals.
Not trying to sound like a Shill but again they could take another look at what they did in Monster Hunter. Even if you had better gear that someone lower than you, you could still fight a monster of the same rank because you used monster parts to create different weapons.
So while your current equipment might be overly strong compared to the monster your fighting, you still need to fight that monster so you can create a new set of gear for a different play style.
Yes, AI could be better, but dave6660 contested my claim that quests make combat less braindead (combat being the same tank 'n' spank in both instances) to which I provided examples.
Combat can be made better, but not only do quests allow you to have directed content other than combat, but the right use of quests make combat even better.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I have no problem with questing as long as the quests are well written and not errand-type quests like "Kill 20", "Gather 20", and so on. The worst experience I ever had was in Silkroad Online. A quest told you to kill 500 monsters. Next step was kill 1000 and then the third repetition to kill 2000. And this was for mid level range.
What I do miss in todays MMOs is the option to kill strong monsters with a group. I loved games like DAoC and Lineage 2 for the grouping. Grouping made you very strong due to the group-utilities the players added. A Warrior in DAoC buffed by a Shaman and accelerated attack speed by a Healers Celerity transformed the Warrior into a killing machine. Same goes for Lineage 2 where a Destroyer Orc was able to do huge pulls, if he was buffed by a Orc Shaman and then received buffs of Swordsinger and Bladedancer.
To me, classes strengthening each other is one important aspect in a game. It makes for heroic stories, because grouped in one of the previously mentioned games you became able to kill monsters that exceeded your solo capabilities by far.
For example, I remember a pull in DAoC when we leveled in Trollheim very well. We pulled the wrong monster and in came a large group of ultra high level mobs. Somehow we managed to kill all these mobs. A pull that should have been a certain wipe.
Bottomline: Compared to oldschool MMORPGs, todays MMOs seem to miss the benefits of grouping that made up for experiencing heroic moments. Means, you actually experienced heroic moments. Todays MMORPGs only imply heroic moments. There are almost no real challenges.
What I like is objective grinding. This means I have something I am working towards hopefully something meaningful.
In EQ1 I spent ages grinding mobs at specific locations waiting for rare spawn or drop. Knowing that when I got said item it would ultimately result is something worthwhile and long lasting. Examples being my Armour of Ro et or my Epic. I never worried about "leveling" levels were just something that arrived while I was working on my objectives.
Modern MMORPGs and in many situations players have forgotten this suddenly exp and leveling became more important than anything else rewards became cheap you get a new sword and replace it with a newer sword 10 minute later.
This is the problem with quests at the moment non of them matter its also why people ar so focused on end game nothing in the journey has meaning. Whats the point in spending 2 hours exploring a dungeon (sorry forgot modern games 30 min tops) when the ultimate reward ie the +5 frostband sword of the vampire king which will be replaced by the first world mini quest where the farmer gives you his rusty sword +10 firebrand for killing 20 chickens.
But I digress all grinding is bad when all your doing is focusing on the numbers you need objectives reasons to grind without burning out.
The real point is not which is better but HOW it is done.Quests should NOT give xp,rewards are fine and do make sense but experience does not make any sense at all.FFXI is the only game that got that right,you gain rewards and/or favor with your nation or the whole world favor or perhaps just favor with that npc.
It falls under the same notion that you should not get xp for finding a new discovery or location.If you wanted you could give a whole different category for discovery xp but you should NEVER become a more experienced Warrior just because you set foot on a new piece of terrain.,it makes zero sense.
So in saying all this,grinding mobs is combat and combat is where you DO become a more experienced Warrior,so that is where you get xp from NOT quests.There should also be a separate experience/skill set for your various weapons,you should not gain a level and automatically be the best most proficient axe wielder the planet has ever seen.
You can use the word grindy or whatever else but it has no bearing on the fact that it should all make sense in a role playing manner ,even though these are just games we are role playing realistic features.
One more point that FFXI also got right was in the proficiency factor.If you could maintain a steady flow within a certain time limit you gained added xp,that makes sense because if you are more proficient with your skills you SHOULD be a more experienced Warrior that someone who is not as proficient.
One more factor....
Quests are ALWAYS laid out to have every player follow the exact same path,nothing is random or CHOICE,you just follow the game's choice set for you.Killing mobs can be totally random even including aggro fights you did not plan such as a boss spawning right on top of your party.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Now we are getting to the subject. Why there should be grinding, at all? Why there cannot be content for the player to scour through till hours of end with next to no grinding? Today's MMORPG players are pathetic demands-wise. Its like you people wait for a new MMORPG to follow the EQ model. (Grind your way to max level, raid dungeons, wait for patch, raid dungeons, do some time-sink geargrind mini instanced pvp if you so wish, wait for patch, raid dungeons etc etc). And the best part is, some of you are disappointed if it doesn't.
Oh well, the old model is apparently dying, since all these new typical themepark mmos that get published are either killed right off the bat or go f2p, I bet soon even publishers won't allow such products out (might be one of the reasons EQN & Titan were scrapped to be re-done in the first place)
nah ... if the game fits the discussion, i will bring it up. I don't worry about what random people may think on the internet. Otherwise, i wouldn't have be so vocal about my playstyle, which is quite different from many here.
My theme song.
The problem is ... nowadays quest grind MMORPGs , you rarely have friend to run quest with .
It even hard to start same quest with people that your ready known , left alone the strangers .
In any MMORPG you are going to be doing some kind of repetitive action if you play it enough. This is due to the simple fact that players consume content far, far faster than developers create it. Even MMORPGs that employ a lot of player-generated content or procedural generation always wind up with lots of repetitive action. And many players refer to this repetitive action as grinding...sometimes negatively, sometimes not.
So it's all well and good to say "let's get rid of grinding!" But that's kind of meaningless...how can you possibly have an MMORPG with no repetitive action?
IMO, the key is to focus on making the game's repetitive actions fun, instead of trying to eliminate them all together. I feel that quests were an attempt to "mask" the MOB grind that people started to hate, but all they did was replace the MOB grind with another grind that was even more restrictive and linear than the MOB grind.
So quests took a repetitive action that wasn't very fun (MOB grinding) and replaced it with a repetitive action that is arguably less fun (quest grinding).
I think MMORPGs would be much better off if they just accept the fact that they are grindy by nature and focus on making all their different grinds really varied and enjoyable.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I could accept a MMO with medium/fast leveling speed as long as the quests are optional and the quests don't have GPS tracking.
The classes would need to be more varied then what I see in MMOs these days. Not in terms of how many ways you can customize each class, but in having classes that are actually unique and don't just have different types of DPS.
I'd also like to see the idea of not having your health/magic regenerate over time. You have to go back to town to rest at an inn, camp, etc. This would prevent grinding of mobs non stop.
The quests in Kingdom of Amalur are fairly good. It does have GPS, but the stories are usually fairly interesting at least.
I'd also prefer there to be no instances in most of the world. I can accept instanced dungeons if I have to, but not the outer areas.
Kingdom of Amalur is not a MMO .. but i guess that is close enough for you?
Who said that Kingdoms of Amalur wasn't an MMO? If the majority considers Kingdoms of Amalur to be an MMO, then it should be just as much an MMO as say Everquest and Ultima Online.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
LMAO.
This is truly gold coming from you.
MMO is just a modern term for video games. Language changes and evolves over time. Better catch up before you get left behind
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb