You mean make TESO have one real content update/expansion every 2-3 years and a cash shop like GW2? No thanks.
Lets face it GW2 IS the best P2P currently out and even with its wild popularity its content is glacial / lightweight and it HAS to have a cash shop even to keep that poor amount of content coming in.
GW2 is B2P.
Please name a P2P game that adds more content than GW2 then.
Star Trek Online. for a free to play game they sure love to add permanent content out the ass, I think they are up to season 9, I give them that STO has a strong team it seems.
EDIT: I read wrong I thought I saw F2P game.
Now for the real answer:
Here is the thing, GW2 does not add content like you think, it's a illusion, they add temporary crap, so far I can only remember 2 content updates that added to the game, first one was "Fractals of the Mist" and the second one was that new WVW Map, other then that everything added was temporary. (correct me if i'm wrong please)
I have to agree with this, pretty much any P2P game ever has added more content than GW2. GW2 has 2+ years of release and nothing to show for it sans a few small things. It's why the game is hurting so bad right now and why so many people are begging Anet for an expansion rather than more LS time wastey type content.
I'm a huge fan of GW and ANet but they have really dropped the ball with GW2.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV Have played: You name it If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
You mean make TESO have one real content update/expansion every 2-3 years and a cash shop like GW2? No thanks.
Lets face it GW2 IS the best P2P currently out and even with its wild popularity its content is glacial / lightweight and it HAS to have a cash shop even to keep that poor amount of content coming in.
GW2 is B2P.
Please name a P2P game that adds more content than GW2 then.
Star Trek Online. for a free to play game they sure love to add permanent content out the ass, I think they are up to season 9, I give them that STO has a strong team it seems.
EDIT: I read wrong I thought I saw F2P game.
Now for the real answer:
Here is the thing, GW2 does not add content like you think, it's a illusion, they add temporary crap, so far I can only remember 2 content updates that added to the game, first one was "Fractals of the Mist" and the second one was that new WVW Map, other then that everything added was temporary. (correct me if i'm wrong please)
GW2 is VERY specific in these terms, seeing as they take away content. That does not discount that they added it in the first place. You're not wrong, you're just half right.
You mean make TESO have one real content update/expansion every 2-3 years and a cash shop like GW2? No thanks.
Lets face it GW2 IS the best P2P currently out and even with its wild popularity its content is glacial / lightweight and it HAS to have a cash shop even to keep that poor amount of content coming in.
GW2 is B2P.
Please name a P2P game that adds more content than GW2 then.
Star Trek Online. for a free to play game they sure love to add permanent content out the ass, I think they are up to season 9, I give them that STO has a strong team it seems.
EDIT: I read wrong I thought I saw F2P game.
Now for the real answer:
Here is the thing, GW2 does not add content like you think, it's a illusion, they add temporary crap, so far I can only remember 2 content updates that added to the game, first one was "Fractals of the Mist" and the second one was that new WVW Map, other then that everything added was temporary. (correct me if i'm wrong please)
GW2 is VERY specific in these terms, seeing as they take away content. That does not discount that they added it in the first place. You're not wrong, you're just half right.
Exactly. GW2 have added content.
Outside of expansions - that is "content that you get without paying for an additional box price", no P2P game (or very few) adds more than a couple of crappy dungeons or crappy small area. Which GW2 has done exactly.
So I don't see the extra value for a customer in going for P2P over B2P here. There is no real/significant difference as far as I can tell.
This is a perceived/hypothetical strength of the P2P model vs the B2P/F2P model, but is simply not true. In P2P, to get decent content, you have to purchase a new expansion/box too.
So this argument falls under the banner of the "hypothetical qualities of P2P games", with "does not offer significant difference over a B2P or F2P model" :
"Most of the arguments are:
- Hypothetical problems generated by the B2P/F2P models (found in some poor implementations of these models, admittedly)
- Hypothetical qualities of P2P games that we haven't seen in years in any P2P game
What you will see is that nobody will be able to point to great and successful implementation of pure P2P model (that more over offer significant difference with a B2P or F2P model)."
Also note that the common model of MMOs (any payment model) in general makes old content (including old expansions) completely irrelevant after a while (due to levelling/items, in game terms) - which asks the question: is it still worth having the content in the first place? (ironically, GW2 with the down levelling would be one of the games where the content could still be relevant after a while and so - I agree - would benefit from having more permanent content)
The quality of Arena Net's 'content' updates for GW2 is my argument against going B2P. The quality of community and contents of cash shops, along with crappy 'content' patches in F2P games is my argument against going F2P.
Think B2P is better? Then go play GW2. That game has only proven that with the lack of continued funds you again have cash shop content being king in developments mind, lack of any decent continued content.
In red is a perfect example, I want content to be the main focus not "How can we support our game this month"
This "perfect example" supports no game model. It is true of all games.
For a game like TESO it will be a case of "how many subscribers are we going to have over the next three months; lots - fine; not many - sorry team you have to be downsized, development cut back; EU server remains in EU, CS cut back - whatever.
For a game like Skyrim it will be: how many copies have we sold, can we sell more if we reduce the price. How many copies of our next expansion will we sell, what can we budget. Skyrim - with no sub - had 3 major xpacs in the first year. Probably part funded TESO as well.
You obviously don't like GW2 - we get that bit but that doesn't make B2P bad. I would actually describe Gw2 as B2P + cash shop btw not B2P + DLC. It is never as simple as that of course. Skyrim or a game like Titanfall I would suggest are better exponents of B2P + DLC - although you can subscribe to Titanfall (ditto BF3 etc.)
There are many slightly different business models. All of them rely on current and future sales. And sometime the future sale is multiple cash shop transactions, sometimes its DLC and sometimes it a sub - which in a game like SWTOR can be thought of as a "cash shop bundle".
Different variations but all of them ask the question: how can we support our game usually over the next few months. If you have to ask about this month you are at death's door. One thing is certain though: a subscription does not guarantee support or expansions, look at WAR as was, DAoC, even WoW.
TESO has opted for a sub but in doing so it has sacrificed "high" as in Skyrim type sales. Has it sacrificed to much?
They attract the worst members of the MMO community
That's all I need to my opinion to be soundly in favor of P2P. I look forward to the next week or two on ESO because most of the trolls, whiners, etc. Will be gone and we can move on and people can start blindly hating WildStar and ArcheAge.
My major gripe about P2P:
NO MMO was worth it.
The only MMOs that have a small edge here are MMOs like L2 and EvE that dont charge for expansions (EvE doesnt even have a box price and L2 while it was still p2P)
I havent noticed any difference in community, thats such a myth thats its unbelievable people stull tout that.
I think the evidence speaks for itself why a sub gives a game a higher quality level of content. People leave a game after content runs dry and subs ensure that the content does not dry up so fast tthat people leave the game.
Umm this would mean something if TESO had that higher quality.
When i started TESO in the 5 day Early Access, i was totally prepared to play it as my main MMO.
Less than 30 days later i am looking for an alternative and hating my time in game played.
In its current state its buggy, boring, and botted.
Just flat out the way this game was released does not warrant a monthly fee.
Zenimax would garner a huge upswelling of support if they did not charge anyone for a subscription, until the bugs, bots and the boredom is fixed.
Its not fun not able to grp with others, its not fun to have bugs keep you from progressing, its not fun to have bots hinder your enjoyment..... its not fun to pay for a game that's .... not fun.
mod can lock this topic ? we got enough of them, eso curently P2P for the standar they want to keep ,
and yeah that not there yet but that the first months and if people whould stop to be immature and think everything should be right now perfect , the game will get there, the base game realy amazing and fun.
that not B2P or F2P because it not this type of game.
they are no reason talk about it, use you logic.
you need to be the one you talk about how this game should be either B2P or p2p. because that not either of those and that just rude to say people should explain to you why the game p2p.
if you want know, can tell you a litle bit some reason.
- services ( yeah no matter how you bitch or think they are the worst ever, they are way better that b2p or p2p game dev )
- no cash shop ( no the horse not one )
- REAL update and a team working daily on the game ( no f2p and b2p game dont have it )
we pay for these service the total of .50 cents a day something ANYONE can afforts, if you cant, you should not have enough time play mmorpg.
my food last night cost me 4 months subs omg.... i get a damn cofee each day before work and that 4x more that the price daily... when people with stop bitch about how game like mmorpg should be FREE ??
they are not these type of game, they require BIG WORK, TEAM, DEV , working DAILY. accept it or go play your shooter or other single player game who require no update, daily, patch, big team working on it....
SERIOUSLY ??!" IM TIRED OF THIS SHIT.
this is a discussion forum.
Why is it wrong to have a discussion.
I asked for a argument from the other side for once for those against ESO going B2P/F2P.
How is that Rude?
I thought thats the whole point of the First Amendment. TO give people the freedom to speak out against other thoughts.
Well I see a lot of arguments for why its payment model should change,
i would like to read the arguments for the other side of this debate for sake of a civil discussion.
just for the record, if you want a discussion maybe give YOUR opinion? dont just go like "why you think that woman CAN drive?"
you see why people think you are not about disussing but trolling?
free to play games attrac the wrong players. they are totaly not needed in ESO. that's why.
"believe me, mike.. i calculated the odds of this working against the odds that i was doing something incredibly stupid and i did it anyway!"
I think the evidence speaks for itself why a sub gives a game a higher quality level of content. People leave a game after content runs dry and subs ensure that the content does not dry up so fast tthat people leave the game.
Umm this would mean something if TESO had that higher quality.
When i started TESO in the 5 day Early Access, i was totally prepared to play it as my main MMO.
Less than 30 days later i am looking for an alternative and hating my time in game played.
In its current state its buggy, boring, and botted.
Just flat out the way this game was released does not warrant a monthly fee.
Zenimax would garner a huge upswelling of support if they did not charge anyone for a subscription, until the bugs, bots and the boredom is fixed.
Its not fun not able to grp with others, its not fun to have bugs keep you from progressing, its not fun to have bots hinder your enjoyment..... its not fun to pay for a game that's .... not fun.
TESO is by an far the largest MMO I have played in a decade. It probably beats out EQ2 and WoW at launch and there is no comparison to games like Rift, FF XIV or SWTOR and certainly not anything released in the F2P and B2P market. In the first month of playing both GW2 and SWTOR I had 2 max level toons with good sets of "end game" gear pretty easily. In the first month of playing TESO I have a single toon closing in on 50. The number of hours you can spend as a completionist in these zones is enormous as there are a ton of things to do in everyone of them and the quality of the content is very high.
Yea there are bugs and some of them have been down right aggravating but those bugs certainly are not any worse than most of their peers. Zenimax should have strived to do better than average but it is what is it.
In game bots are a fact of life with MMO's. The people who create these are not stupid and the techniques they use for each game is often highly specialized so many of the methods they use really don't materialize until the game goes live and their is no reset. If it's a on going battle for games like WoW after all these years it's going to be similar for any game. As long as Zenimax puts effort into combating it that's about all we can ask and it will get better. There is a lot of money out their in jumping from the latest thing to the latest thing so I think a lot of the bothers attention will shift to the next latest thing in short order.
As for the boring comment to each their own but even after all the hours I have played I still look forward to logging back in again. I don't grind and do out looking for shortcuts in the leveling system. I am exploring the game world and the levels are coming as I go. My way of playing games these days that is what I find enjoyable. I'm sorry you don't and Zenimax has tried to give you a large PVP zone to play in while they finish up adventure zones.
ESO isn't a perfect game by any means. The difficulty of grouping up with others while very much exaggerated on these forums is a issue. The PVP zones don't have these issues and the adventure zone's won't have these issues. As long as your close to equal level the dungeons also don't have these issues so their are options both in game today and coming in the near future. I played a public dungeon last night that was a blast. It wasn't highly populated and turned out to be much larger than average. I could see spending a couple hours easily in their exploring if you where so inclined.
As for the OP. It's clear to me ESO couldn't have been created as a F2P or B2P game on the scale it exists. That's reason enough not to change models since I want to see them fine tune and improve upon what they have already done not completly change directions and start to release content that looks and feels completely different like SWTOR did post launch. No good can come of going F2P or B2P with ESO and it would be the death of anything new on the scale of what we have seen Zenimax do already.
They attract the worst members of the MMO community
That's all I need to my opinion to be soundly in favor of P2P. I look forward to the next week or two on ESO because most of the trolls, whiners, etc. Will be gone and we can move on and people can start blindly hating WildStar and ArcheAge.
My major gripe about P2P:
NO MMO was worth it.
The only MMOs that have a small edge here are MMOs like L2 and EvE that dont charge for expansions (EvE doesnt even have a box price and L2 while it was still p2P)
I havent noticed any difference in community, thats such a myth thats its unbelievable people stull tout that.
No mmo was worth it?? I stayed subbed to UO for 6-8 years (off and on due to lots of moving during the later years) and I never got tired with the game.
If by new MMo's not being worth it then I might agree with you there. But all in all it really is a matter of personal taste. I still Subbed to SWtOR for over a year until they started calling cash shop additions as content.
mod can lock this topic ? we got enough of them, eso curently P2P for the standar they want to keep ,
and yeah that not there yet but that the first months and if people whould stop to be immature and think everything should be right now perfect , the game will get there, the base game realy amazing and fun.
that not B2P or F2P because it not this type of game.
they are no reason talk about it, use you logic.
you need to be the one you talk about how this game should be either B2P or p2p. because that not either of those and that just rude to say people should explain to you why the game p2p.
if you want know, can tell you a litle bit some reason.
- services ( yeah no matter how you bitch or think they are the worst ever, they are way better that b2p or p2p game dev )
- no cash shop ( no the horse not one )
- REAL update and a team working daily on the game ( no f2p and b2p game dont have it )
we pay for these service the total of .50 cents a day something ANYONE can afforts, if you cant, you should not have enough time play mmorpg.
my food last night cost me 4 months subs omg.... i get a damn cofee each day before work and that 4x more that the price daily... when people with stop bitch about how game like mmorpg should be FREE ??
they are not these type of game, they require BIG WORK, TEAM, DEV , working DAILY. accept it or go play your shooter or other single player game who require no update, daily, patch, big team working on it....
SERIOUSLY ??!" IM TIRED OF THIS SHIT.
this is a discussion forum.
Why is it wrong to have a discussion.
I asked for a argument from the other side for once for those against ESO going B2P/F2P.
How is that Rude?
I thought thats the whole point of the First Amendment. TO give people the freedom to speak out against other thoughts.
Well I see a lot of arguments for why its payment model should change,
i would like to read the arguments for the other side of this debate for sake of a civil discussion.
The first amendment doesn't apply to private entities like this forum. If you are a US citizen, you should have better understanding of the very first amendment.
I like the idea that once I've gotten something I can use it as I see fit. While this could apply to a B2P model, those models would need to be completely without cash shop to work. Hence the subscription model, or in another term, gamer insurance.
Think of your subscription as an insurance that keeps the game running, updated, interesting and the content flowing because you pay the upkeep fee to keep it so. You have all the features available to you, you just have to play the part of the responsible gamer. Spend time playing, report bugs, community minded, you get the idea. Same way as car insurance works.
Now imagine owning a car with insurance in a F2P or B2P format - my imagination shudders at the thought.
On to the other reasons though.
Availability
I like have everything open to me, whether I can attain it or not. I don't want a pay wall stopping me from questing in new zones, wearing new gear, getting rewards from quests or putting specific items, even cosmetics in a place I can only get them by spending extra cash. When I plop down my sub I have the comfort of knowing that everything the game has to offer is available to me given my dedication, time or abilities. B2P and F2P models currently don't do this, and having a currency exchange is absurd at the current rates games use them these days.
Greed
I know with the sub model, the business trying to make money is getting the money they need, plus a hefty profit. I'm ok with 12-15$ a month, because I can easily blow 15$ at the bar in an hour.
F2P and B2P methods take greed to a whole new level, it feels like everything is funneled so you have to spend the extra cash to get things, yes people don't need those things, but who are you to judge what a person needs. Everyone has different reasons why they play, cosmetics, character, pvp, crafting, exploration. Any one of combination of those things, and of course those are littered behind pay methods in other game forms, whereas in a sub game I can experience one or all of those without increased cost.
Immersion
I know immersion is a sinking ship for most. Everyone is knee deep in e sports and competition and the game is littered with gamer tags instead of RPG style names. But every time I open a menu or see a button the leads to a shop on the UI it kills immersion for me. This is supposed to be another world, a game where I escape the mundane aspects of my life, bills, traffic, advertisements. When you put things in B2P, F2P and more recently Sub games like this you murder my immersion. ESO has done a real good job with immersion and exploration I feel(Though the world can feel small compared to older MMOs). I can get somewhat lost again, sometimes I can't tell NPCs from players, it's refreshing not to see peoples names above their heads in town. To drown in the reminder that you don't have all the latest and greatest because it's behind a pay wall.
There are others, but to sum it up: TL:DR; I like having the option to do everything without having to pay behind the initial sub, games feel like less than games when you are constantly asked for real cash all the time, and bringing real life into the fantasy life I use to escape real life ruins immersion.
This is why I like the sub model over the others, that and I've always gotten better all around quality with the sub model. The designers seem to take more pride when it's a living breathing game and not just a coin driven snack machine the masses slide their credit card through to get the next best flavor.
My argument against it is that it simply isn't happening, so why do people keep discussing it? I know people on this forum think that nobody is playing ESO, but that's simply not the case. Why would a game that just game out and sold pretty well go FTP or BTP a month after it came out?
I think that as a new MMO studio zenimax online needs the financial stability a subscription model will give them. Since they know how much they will earn every month, they can focus on improving the core aspects of the game instead of monetization methods. After they have everything figured out I think they can do well with free or buy to play.
This is a decent civil forum which we can have a good civil debate and discussion.
So I want to hear the argument of the "Anti-ESO Payment Model changers"
on
Why Elder Scrolls Online "SHOULD NOT" change its payment model from its current sub payment model?
I want to hear both sides of the argument, but I will start with the voices of those who believe ESO should NOT change its current payment model.
Read fine print below....
Edit: I believe both sides in this should have a chance to defend their argument, which is why I am asking the "Anti-ESO Payment model changers" to voice their opinion on this.
Obviously a decision wouldn't be made on the following, but still...
It shouldn't change for spite. Simply to piss off all of the entitled kids that think everything should be free of charge.
To put it simply, a subscription based game ensures a reasonably predictable amount of income, which in turn allows the devs to plan accordingly for the amount of content they can produce and release in game updates or expansions.
A free to play model can bring in considerably more money, but it's also far less predictable. A whole bunch of people might show up and force you to add servers but not buy enough to pay for them before they leave again. A large number of people will probably quit playing for months (or years!) as they get distracted by other games, only to return much later.
As a player, I like buy-to-play games like Guild Wars 2, or Diablo 3. Buy the box, no subscription. The up-front cost keeps the aforementioned "entitled kiddies" out, but the lack of a subscription means I can play whenever I like without feeling guilty if I don't log in for a while. With a subscription, if I get busy, distracted, or just bored with a game, I'll end up "wasting" a few months of subscription where I only log in once a week or less, and finally cancel... and at that point, it's unlikely I'll return.
I guess F2P is working for GW2? Personally that game bored me to tears at lvl 40 and I just stopped...that game was too much button mashing and running in circles for me. On every mmo i play i reach max level (most of the time) but could not in GW2. I mainly PvE so maybe it was just more of a PvP game, not sure.
BUT for any other F2P game that I have seen, there is no energy or life to it. If you get more content and its fun content then it was probably an awesome surprise seeing as I have played LOTRO, TERA, RIFT at max level and the content dies down CONSIDERABLY upon switching to F2P...enjoy leveling because that is all each game becomes. Like I said, i haven't hit max level in gw2, personally that game was a grindfest for me.
ESO Will eventually go F2P as all other mmos have except WoW, but if they can make money on a Sub model and there is demand for the game, why would they go F2P right now? It is simple economic demand. They know how many subscribers they have, they can predict better than us whether F2P or P2P is the right option.
Now Playing: Bless / Summoners War Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile
Your argument is null and void. They designed the game the way it is for a reason, play it or don't. Keep your F2P model in the garbage with the trash sir.
In your fantasy where they make the game F2P I'm sure it would go the same as all the other ones, a huge surge of d bags rein in on the game chasing out the original players leaving only the trash to make purchases in the cash shop that they monthly update with lame costume gear and boosters.
The standard argument for F2P is there are so many quality games out already, so why would you need another one? Go play those. If or when this game goes to F2P, I will be long gone before that. If they do it while I'm playing it (doubtful) I would quit and uninstall.
mod can lock this topic ? we got enough of them, eso curently P2P for the standar they want to keep ,
and yeah that not there yet but that the first months and if people whould stop to be immature and think everything should be right now perfect , the game will get there, the base game realy amazing and fun.
that not B2P or F2P because it not this type of game.
they are no reason talk about it, use you logic.
you need to be the one you talk about how this game should be either B2P or p2p. because that not either of those and that just rude to say people should explain to you why the game p2p.
if you want know, can tell you a litle bit some reason.
- services ( yeah no matter how you bitch or think they are the worst ever, they are way better that b2p or p2p game dev )
- no cash shop ( no the horse not one )
- REAL update and a team working daily on the game ( no f2p and b2p game dont have it )
we pay for these service the total of .50 cents a day something ANYONE can afforts, if you cant, you should not have enough time play mmorpg.
my food last night cost me 4 months subs omg.... i get a damn cofee each day before work and that 4x more that the price daily... when people with stop bitch about how game like mmorpg should be FREE ??
they are not these type of game, they require BIG WORK, TEAM, DEV , working DAILY. accept it or go play your shooter or other single player game who require no update, daily, patch, big team working on it....
SERIOUSLY ??!" IM TIRED OF THIS SHIT.
this is a discussion forum.
Why is it wrong to have a discussion.
I asked for a argument from the other side for once for those against ESO going B2P/F2P.
How is that Rude?
I thought thats the whole point of the First Amendment. TO give people the freedom to speak out against other thoughts.
Well I see a lot of arguments for why its payment model should change,
i would like to read the arguments for the other side of this debate for sake of a civil discussion.
First off, like many people who bring up the First Amendment, you have very little clue as to what it actually covers (little hint: does not apply to a company's forums page). But that's beside the point. Not sure why you are making this an "ESO" F2p thing. Most people (and I'm one of them) don't like the F2P model for any games for various reasons. My reasons are:
Created bad game communities.
Rarely is it really "free". Often they turn into cash-grab/pay-to-win crap fest that end you costing more money than a $15 monthly sub.
Guess I'm old fashion. I like the old and tried sub payment model. Just my personal preference.
But it has very little to do with ESO specifically..
I don't get it why people think F2P / B2P community is bad... Have you actually looked at those communities and compared them to P2P ? I've played WOW, EVE, RIFT, GW2, GW1, SWTOR, DCUO, Defiance, Aion, Runes of Magic, Flyff, lineage and so on...
In those games I remember that the worst possible communities were in EVE, WOW, DCUO and Defiance (which practically had no community because of it's pathetic social system).... So as you can see those games are P2P, F2P and B2P and it really doesn't matter what sub model a game has because from my exp it's not really a relevant factor. I usually see it being pulled of as an excuse on forums and stated as a fact - like here, but when playing games there's no rule for it and it certanly isn't true that F2P/B2P makes a terrible community. As an example I can take GW1, which had the best possible community I've came across in games and GW2 isn't far from it as well even tho I don't play GW2 as much as I used to.
The old and tried sub payment model is exactly that, "old" and less and less companies can make a profit in todays mmorpg market because it's simply too BIG and people aren't hanging around in just 1 mmorpg for long enough, as we've seen from many examples in the recent years.
Devs take what they can and if they see that people will buy whatever crap they throw at them in the cash shop then that's how they'll do it. Afterall they're here to make a profit so pushing cash shops to p2w limits isn't strange, but if people wouldn't buy those stuff they wouldn't bother putting them in. With that said... I still haven't spent anything more than few dollars in a F2P game and if I see devs turning towards p2w I just stop playing, there's plenty of other mmorpgs to fill the gaps
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life." -------------------------------
mod can lock this topic ? we got enough of them, eso curently P2P for the standar they want to keep ,
and yeah that not there yet but that the first months and if people whould stop to be immature and think everything should be right now perfect , the game will get there, the base game realy amazing and fun.
that not B2P or F2P because it not this type of game.
they are no reason talk about it, use you logic.
you need to be the one you talk about how this game should be either B2P or p2p. because that not either of those and that just rude to say people should explain to you why the game p2p.
if you want know, can tell you a litle bit some reason.
- services ( yeah no matter how you bitch or think they are the worst ever, they are way better that b2p or p2p game dev )
- no cash shop ( no the horse not one )
- REAL update and a team working daily on the game ( no f2p and b2p game dont have it )
we pay for these service the total of .50 cents a day something ANYONE can afforts, if you cant, you should not have enough time play mmorpg.
my food last night cost me 4 months subs omg.... i get a damn cofee each day before work and that 4x more that the price daily... when people with stop bitch about how game like mmorpg should be FREE ??
they are not these type of game, they require BIG WORK, TEAM, DEV , working DAILY. accept it or go play your shooter or other single player game who require no update, daily, patch, big team working on it....
SERIOUSLY ??!" IM TIRED OF THIS SHIT.
this is a discussion forum.
Why is it wrong to have a discussion.
I asked for a argument from the other side for once for those against ESO going B2P/F2P.
How is that Rude?
I thought thats the whole point of the First Amendment. TO give people the freedom to speak out against other thoughts.
Well I see a lot of arguments for why its payment model should change,
i would like to read the arguments for the other side of this debate for sake of a civil discussion.
First off, like many people who bring up the First Amendment, you have very little clue as to what it actually covers (little hint: does not apply to a company's forums page). But that's beside the point. Not sure why you are making this an "ESO" F2p thing. Most people (and I'm one of them) don't like the F2P model for any games for various reasons. My reasons are:
Created bad game communities.
Rarely is it really "free". Often they turn into cash-grab/pay-to-win crap fest that end you costing more money than a $15 monthly sub.
Guess I'm old fashion. I like the old and tried sub payment model. Just my personal preference.
But it has very little to do with ESO specifically..
I don't get it why people think F2P / B2P community is bad... Have you actually looked at those communities and compared them to P2P ? I've played WOW, EVE, RIFT, GW2, GW1, SWTOR, DCUO, Defiance, Aion, Runes of Magic, Flyff, lineage and so on...
In those games I remember that the worst possible communities were in EVE, WOW, DCUO and Defiance (which practically had no community because of it's pathetic social system).... So as you can see those games are P2P, F2P and B2P and it really doesn't matter what sub model a game has because from my exp it's not really a relevant factor. I usually see it being pulled of as an excuse on forums and stated as a fact - like here, but when playing games there's no rule for it and it certanly isn't true that F2P/B2P makes a terrible community. As an example I can take GW1, which had the best possible community I've came across in games and GW2 isn't far from it as well even tho I don't play GW2 as much as I used to.
The old and tried sub payment model is exactly that, "old" and less and less companies can make a profit in todays mmorpg market because it's simply too BIG and people aren't hanging around in just 1 mmorpg for long enough, as we've seen from many examples in the recent years.
Devs take what they can and if they see that people will buy whatever crap they throw at them in the cash shop then that's how they'll do it. Afterall they're here to make a profit so pushing cash shops to p2w limits isn't strange, but if people wouldn't buy those stuff they wouldn't bother putting them in. With that said... I still haven't spent anything more than few dollars in a F2P game and if I see devs turning towards p2w I just stop playing, there's plenty of other mmorpgs to fill the gaps
Comments
I have to agree with this, pretty much any P2P game ever has added more content than GW2. GW2 has 2+ years of release and nothing to show for it sans a few small things. It's why the game is hurting so bad right now and why so many people are begging Anet for an expansion rather than more LS time wastey type content.
I'm a huge fan of GW and ANet but they have really dropped the ball with GW2.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
GW2 is VERY specific in these terms, seeing as they take away content. That does not discount that they added it in the first place. You're not wrong, you're just half right.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Exactly. GW2 have added content.
Outside of expansions - that is "content that you get without paying for an additional box price", no P2P game (or very few) adds more than a couple of crappy dungeons or crappy small area. Which GW2 has done exactly.
So I don't see the extra value for a customer in going for P2P over B2P here. There is no real/significant difference as far as I can tell.
This is a perceived/hypothetical strength of the P2P model vs the B2P/F2P model, but is simply not true. In P2P, to get decent content, you have to purchase a new expansion/box too.
So this argument falls under the banner of the "hypothetical qualities of P2P games", with "does not offer significant difference over a B2P or F2P model" :
"Most of the arguments are:
- Hypothetical problems generated by the B2P/F2P models (found in some poor implementations of these models, admittedly)
- Hypothetical qualities of P2P games that we haven't seen in years in any P2P game
What you will see is that nobody will be able to point to great and successful implementation of pure P2P model (that more over offer significant difference with a B2P or F2P model)."
Also note that the common model of MMOs (any payment model) in general makes old content (including old expansions) completely irrelevant after a while (due to levelling/items, in game terms) - which asks the question: is it still worth having the content in the first place? (ironically, GW2 with the down levelling would be one of the games where the content could still be relevant after a while and so - I agree - would benefit from having more permanent content)
The quality of Arena Net's 'content' updates for GW2 is my argument against going B2P. The quality of community and contents of cash shops, along with crappy 'content' patches in F2P games is my argument against going F2P.
edit- Super Adventure Box was pretty sweet.
This "perfect example" supports no game model. It is true of all games.
For a game like TESO it will be a case of "how many subscribers are we going to have over the next three months; lots - fine; not many - sorry team you have to be downsized, development cut back; EU server remains in EU, CS cut back - whatever.
For a game like Skyrim it will be: how many copies have we sold, can we sell more if we reduce the price. How many copies of our next expansion will we sell, what can we budget. Skyrim - with no sub - had 3 major xpacs in the first year. Probably part funded TESO as well.
You obviously don't like GW2 - we get that bit but that doesn't make B2P bad. I would actually describe Gw2 as B2P + cash shop btw not B2P + DLC. It is never as simple as that of course. Skyrim or a game like Titanfall I would suggest are better exponents of B2P + DLC - although you can subscribe to Titanfall (ditto BF3 etc.)
There are many slightly different business models. All of them rely on current and future sales. And sometime the future sale is multiple cash shop transactions, sometimes its DLC and sometimes it a sub - which in a game like SWTOR can be thought of as a "cash shop bundle".
Different variations but all of them ask the question: how can we support our game usually over the next few months. If you have to ask about this month you are at death's door. One thing is certain though: a subscription does not guarantee support or expansions, look at WAR as was, DAoC, even WoW.
TESO has opted for a sub but in doing so it has sacrificed "high" as in Skyrim type sales. Has it sacrificed to much?
My major gripe about P2P:
NO MMO was worth it.
The only MMOs that have a small edge here are MMOs like L2 and EvE that dont charge for expansions (EvE doesnt even have a box price and L2 while it was still p2P)
I havent noticed any difference in community, thats such a myth thats its unbelievable people stull tout that.
i would have just LOVED if any P2P MMO actually added anything better than that.
Since no MMO i have played since 2002 did....you have 0 arguments.
Umm this would mean something if TESO had that higher quality.
When i started TESO in the 5 day Early Access, i was totally prepared to play it as my main MMO.
Less than 30 days later i am looking for an alternative and hating my time in game played.
In its current state its buggy, boring, and botted.
Just flat out the way this game was released does not warrant a monthly fee.
Zenimax would garner a huge upswelling of support if they did not charge anyone for a subscription, until the bugs, bots and the boredom is fixed.
Its not fun not able to grp with others, its not fun to have bugs keep you from progressing, its not fun to have bots hinder your enjoyment..... its not fun to pay for a game that's .... not fun.
Lolipops !
just for the record, if you want a discussion maybe give YOUR opinion? dont just go like "why you think that woman CAN drive?"
you see why people think you are not about disussing but trolling?
free to play games attrac the wrong players. they are totaly not needed in ESO. that's why.
"believe me, mike.. i calculated the odds of this working against the odds that i was doing something incredibly stupid and i did it anyway!"
TESO is by an far the largest MMO I have played in a decade. It probably beats out EQ2 and WoW at launch and there is no comparison to games like Rift, FF XIV or SWTOR and certainly not anything released in the F2P and B2P market. In the first month of playing both GW2 and SWTOR I had 2 max level toons with good sets of "end game" gear pretty easily. In the first month of playing TESO I have a single toon closing in on 50. The number of hours you can spend as a completionist in these zones is enormous as there are a ton of things to do in everyone of them and the quality of the content is very high.
Yea there are bugs and some of them have been down right aggravating but those bugs certainly are not any worse than most of their peers. Zenimax should have strived to do better than average but it is what is it.
In game bots are a fact of life with MMO's. The people who create these are not stupid and the techniques they use for each game is often highly specialized so many of the methods they use really don't materialize until the game goes live and their is no reset. If it's a on going battle for games like WoW after all these years it's going to be similar for any game. As long as Zenimax puts effort into combating it that's about all we can ask and it will get better. There is a lot of money out their in jumping from the latest thing to the latest thing so I think a lot of the bothers attention will shift to the next latest thing in short order.
As for the boring comment to each their own but even after all the hours I have played I still look forward to logging back in again. I don't grind and do out looking for shortcuts in the leveling system. I am exploring the game world and the levels are coming as I go. My way of playing games these days that is what I find enjoyable. I'm sorry you don't and Zenimax has tried to give you a large PVP zone to play in while they finish up adventure zones.
ESO isn't a perfect game by any means. The difficulty of grouping up with others while very much exaggerated on these forums is a issue. The PVP zones don't have these issues and the adventure zone's won't have these issues. As long as your close to equal level the dungeons also don't have these issues so their are options both in game today and coming in the near future. I played a public dungeon last night that was a blast. It wasn't highly populated and turned out to be much larger than average. I could see spending a couple hours easily in their exploring if you where so inclined.
As for the OP. It's clear to me ESO couldn't have been created as a F2P or B2P game on the scale it exists. That's reason enough not to change models since I want to see them fine tune and improve upon what they have already done not completly change directions and start to release content that looks and feels completely different like SWTOR did post launch. No good can come of going F2P or B2P with ESO and it would be the death of anything new on the scale of what we have seen Zenimax do already.
No mmo was worth it?? I stayed subbed to UO for 6-8 years (off and on due to lots of moving during the later years) and I never got tired with the game.
If by new MMo's not being worth it then I might agree with you there. But all in all it really is a matter of personal taste. I still Subbed to SWtOR for over a year until they started calling cash shop additions as content.
The first amendment doesn't apply to private entities like this forum. If you are a US citizen, you should have better understanding of the very first amendment.
Why would the comparison only be with games that you personally have played?
Asheron's Call.
I like the idea that once I've gotten something I can use it as I see fit. While this could apply to a B2P model, those models would need to be completely without cash shop to work. Hence the subscription model, or in another term, gamer insurance.
Think of your subscription as an insurance that keeps the game running, updated, interesting and the content flowing because you pay the upkeep fee to keep it so. You have all the features available to you, you just have to play the part of the responsible gamer. Spend time playing, report bugs, community minded, you get the idea. Same way as car insurance works.
Now imagine owning a car with insurance in a F2P or B2P format - my imagination shudders at the thought.
On to the other reasons though.
Availability
I like have everything open to me, whether I can attain it or not. I don't want a pay wall stopping me from questing in new zones, wearing new gear, getting rewards from quests or putting specific items, even cosmetics in a place I can only get them by spending extra cash. When I plop down my sub I have the comfort of knowing that everything the game has to offer is available to me given my dedication, time or abilities. B2P and F2P models currently don't do this, and having a currency exchange is absurd at the current rates games use them these days.
Greed
I know with the sub model, the business trying to make money is getting the money they need, plus a hefty profit. I'm ok with 12-15$ a month, because I can easily blow 15$ at the bar in an hour.
F2P and B2P methods take greed to a whole new level, it feels like everything is funneled so you have to spend the extra cash to get things, yes people don't need those things, but who are you to judge what a person needs. Everyone has different reasons why they play, cosmetics, character, pvp, crafting, exploration. Any one of combination of those things, and of course those are littered behind pay methods in other game forms, whereas in a sub game I can experience one or all of those without increased cost.
Immersion
I know immersion is a sinking ship for most. Everyone is knee deep in e sports and competition and the game is littered with gamer tags instead of RPG style names. But every time I open a menu or see a button the leads to a shop on the UI it kills immersion for me. This is supposed to be another world, a game where I escape the mundane aspects of my life, bills, traffic, advertisements. When you put things in B2P, F2P and more recently Sub games like this you murder my immersion. ESO has done a real good job with immersion and exploration I feel(Though the world can feel small compared to older MMOs). I can get somewhat lost again, sometimes I can't tell NPCs from players, it's refreshing not to see peoples names above their heads in town. To drown in the reminder that you don't have all the latest and greatest because it's behind a pay wall.
There are others, but to sum it up: TL:DR; I like having the option to do everything without having to pay behind the initial sub, games feel like less than games when you are constantly asked for real cash all the time, and bringing real life into the fantasy life I use to escape real life ruins immersion.
This is why I like the sub model over the others, that and I've always gotten better all around quality with the sub model. The designers seem to take more pride when it's a living breathing game and not just a coin driven snack machine the masses slide their credit card through to get the next best flavor.
Obviously a decision wouldn't be made on the following, but still...
It shouldn't change for spite. Simply to piss off all of the entitled kids that think everything should be free of charge.
To put it simply, a subscription based game ensures a reasonably predictable amount of income, which in turn allows the devs to plan accordingly for the amount of content they can produce and release in game updates or expansions.
A free to play model can bring in considerably more money, but it's also far less predictable. A whole bunch of people might show up and force you to add servers but not buy enough to pay for them before they leave again. A large number of people will probably quit playing for months (or years!) as they get distracted by other games, only to return much later.
As a player, I like buy-to-play games like Guild Wars 2, or Diablo 3. Buy the box, no subscription. The up-front cost keeps the aforementioned "entitled kiddies" out, but the lack of a subscription means I can play whenever I like without feeling guilty if I don't log in for a while. With a subscription, if I get busy, distracted, or just bored with a game, I'll end up "wasting" a few months of subscription where I only log in once a week or less, and finally cancel... and at that point, it's unlikely I'll return.
I guess F2P is working for GW2? Personally that game bored me to tears at lvl 40 and I just stopped...that game was too much button mashing and running in circles for me. On every mmo i play i reach max level (most of the time) but could not in GW2. I mainly PvE so maybe it was just more of a PvP game, not sure.
BUT for any other F2P game that I have seen, there is no energy or life to it. If you get more content and its fun content then it was probably an awesome surprise seeing as I have played LOTRO, TERA, RIFT at max level and the content dies down CONSIDERABLY upon switching to F2P...enjoy leveling because that is all each game becomes. Like I said, i haven't hit max level in gw2, personally that game was a grindfest for me.
ESO Will eventually go F2P as all other mmos have except WoW, but if they can make money on a Sub model and there is demand for the game, why would they go F2P right now? It is simple economic demand. They know how many subscribers they have, they can predict better than us whether F2P or P2P is the right option.
Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile
Your argument is null and void. They designed the game the way it is for a reason, play it or don't. Keep your F2P model in the garbage with the trash sir.
In your fantasy where they make the game F2P I'm sure it would go the same as all the other ones, a huge surge of d bags rein in on the game chasing out the original players leaving only the trash to make purchases in the cash shop that they monthly update with lame costume gear and boosters.
The standard argument for F2P is there are so many quality games out already, so why would you need another one? Go play those. If or when this game goes to F2P, I will be long gone before that. If they do it while I'm playing it (doubtful) I would quit and uninstall.
I don't get it why people think F2P / B2P community is bad... Have you actually looked at those communities and compared them to P2P ? I've played WOW, EVE, RIFT, GW2, GW1, SWTOR, DCUO, Defiance, Aion, Runes of Magic, Flyff, lineage and so on...
In those games I remember that the worst possible communities were in EVE, WOW, DCUO and Defiance (which practically had no community because of it's pathetic social system).... So as you can see those games are P2P, F2P and B2P and it really doesn't matter what sub model a game has because from my exp it's not really a relevant factor. I usually see it being pulled of as an excuse on forums and stated as a fact - like here, but when playing games there's no rule for it and it certanly isn't true that F2P/B2P makes a terrible community. As an example I can take GW1, which had the best possible community I've came across in games and GW2 isn't far from it as well even tho I don't play GW2 as much as I used to.
The old and tried sub payment model is exactly that, "old" and less and less companies can make a profit in todays mmorpg market because it's simply too BIG and people aren't hanging around in just 1 mmorpg for long enough, as we've seen from many examples in the recent years.
Devs take what they can and if they see that people will buy whatever crap they throw at them in the cash shop then that's how they'll do it. Afterall they're here to make a profit so pushing cash shops to p2w limits isn't strange, but if people wouldn't buy those stuff they wouldn't bother putting them in. With that said... I still haven't spent anything more than few dollars in a F2P game and if I see devs turning towards p2w I just stop playing, there's plenty of other mmorpgs to fill the gaps
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
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Go play them, leave the sub games alone.
Because I like it more than the other models.
It's pretty simple really.....but somehow I have a feeling you are trying to prove something simply by asking the question.