Impact of Veteran Ranks on PVP

Kyleran

So I was reading through the upcoming content release/patch notes, and came across the following blurb,

Veteran Rank Updates
You can earn up to Veteran Rank 12 as you continue your adventures in Craglorn. Additionally, the veteran XP earned from killing enemies has more than doubled.

So I haven't done much PVP, but I originally joined this game because I thought when I reached level 50, the playing field would be more or less level, outside of any "realm rank abilities" I might have to earn, a la DAOC.

But they don't really have that system it seems, but they do have VR1-10, and from what I'm reading, players who are VR5 have an  advantage over a VR1, and a VR10 even more so.

Is this really true?   Do we really have to grind our way through all of this PVE content to level the playing field in PVP?  OK, fair enough, I was willing to do it, I'm a PVE'er at heart, and was willing to gut it out.  (well, maybe)

But now I read about the upcoming release, and it says that by doing more PVE, Requiring grouping activities to complete (something I'm not really doing in this game, but that's another thread) which will result in players obtaining VR12 status.

Will a VR12 have substantial advantage over a VR10? If so, then I assume that when the next expansion comes out, it might raise the bar to VR14, and the advantage over VR10's would increase.

I can't see myself going through all of this group based,  PVE in order to keep myself competitive in PVP, so am I really understanding this system correctly, or am I totally missing something?

Thanks in advance to anyone who is willing to help clarify this.

 

 

 

Iselin

You're describing the typical vertical progression in any themepark when expansions happen.

 

I don't know how many times I've had the uber gear it took me weeks or months to put together be replaced by normal drop or quest reward greens after an expansion in WOW.

 

The only unusual thing here is that the move from VR10 to VR12 at the top is happening very quickly and without an expansion.

 

But yes, those who are at the top level, whatever that happens to be and whatever it's called, will always have some advantage over those below. In this game it's not the effect of leveling up itself--which is very small-- or of having level-gated super abilities. It's about the "end game" gear you can accumulate and tweak to perfection over time. 

Aeonblades

Think of VR as your RR in DAoC, with the difference being you can earn them in PvE as well. I would wait and see what they do to increase experience and rewards for PvP centric players in the first few major patches.

 

Not saying it will be fixed over night, but I would look to being able to get VR's as quickly in PvP as in PvE at some point down the road.

Iselin

Originally posted by Aeonblades

Think of VR as your RR in DAoC, with the difference being you can earn them in PvE as well. I would wait and see what they do to increase experience and rewards for PvP centric players in the first few major patches.

 

Not saying it will be fixed over night, but I would look to being able to get VR's as quickly in PvP as in PvE at some point down the road.

From the sounds of various things in the PTS patch notes, it looks like they have realized the error of their ways in virtually forcing everyone into questing (or AOE grinding in select spots). These are the bits from the notes I'm talking about:

 

"Additionally, the veteran XP earned from killing enemies has more than doubled."

"The XP awarded for killing enemy player characters has been doubled."

"XP rewards for completing the quest to kill 20 enemy player characters have also been increased."

 

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/87867/patch-notes-v-1-1-inc-craglorn-from-pts/p1

Manasong

Did you vote?

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/74423/pvp-rewards/p1

 

And yes, right now it's basically farm pve for vr10 and later farm again for vr12. And on the post above we just need confirmation from PTS that the rewards allow for some consistent PvP only leveling.

Nanfoodle

This line of think means we need to strip all ways you can advance your char to make things equal. At that end, what is the point of the RPG side of things? Now you have just a battle ground game. 

Cetra

Ya game just launched and more level cap!

The matter is made worse by players who exploited all sorts of crap to VR10 before Zenimax fixed it. So everyone else has to level the hard way to be competitive in pvp.  Previously VR10 now VR12.

Ridiculous.

Nanfoodle

Originally posted by Manasong

Did you vote?

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/74423/pvp-rewards/p1

 

And yes, right now it's basically farm pve for vr10 and later farm again for vr12. And on the post above we just need confirmation from PTS that the rewards allow for some consistent PvP only leveling.

I think a good game gives you reasons to try other areas of the game but should never force. As posted above, looks like ESO is taking steps to fix the problem of leveling only in PvE/Questing. 

Ehllfhire

Newsflash: Players who invest more time, have better gear/stats. What is the issue?

Aeonblades

Originally posted by Ehllfhire
Newsflash: Players who invest more time, have better gear/stats. What is the issue?

I call it the GW2 complex. Most players of that game feel like they should be just as powerful playing 2 hours a week as someone who plays 40 hours a week. It defeats the purpose of an MMORPG in general where time investment = reward.

 

GW2 is a great game I'd recommend to anyone especially for the leveling experience, but it was held back by lack of character advancement at 80 and a lack of dungeon trinity. Steps are being made to bring in a new (fix for the old) trinity system and more skill advancements, so they are definitely learning!

 

ESO luckily got it right from beginning on the time = reward scale. It's one of the few things they can claim was smooth and ready to go for launch for sure.

 

It all comes down to people wanting things for free these days imo.

udon

Those same patch notes also mentioned a lot of tweaking of the scaling curve in PVP as well.  Hopefully the need to be VR12 or even VR1 for that matter to be competitive in PVP ins't as huge as it currently is.

It's my opinion the broken scaling system is one of the main reasons that PVP hasn't really taken hold at the level it could be.  Well that and I think they need to reinstate at least some of the XP they removed from doing PVP even if they have to implement anti exploit mechanics to keep people from abusing it with things like kill swapping. 

DEAD.line

Originally posted by Ehllfhire
Newsflash: Players who invest more time, have better gear/stats. What is the issue?

So i guess battlefield players who would spend time grinding the single player campaign over and over should be the only ones accessing vehicles, right? Not the best analogy, but you get the point.

Fortunatly, from what i gathered, there actually isn't even much creep in ESO. When i asked this, it seemed the jump from VR0 to VR10 wasn't even that noticeable. Not enough to 1-2 shot you atleast.

So i imagine VR12 won't have much advantage. Could be wrong though. Really hope not. Seriously, power creep in pvp game modes is just plain idiotic.

evilized

Originally posted by DEAD.line

Originally posted by Ehllfhire
Newsflash: Players who invest more time, have better gear/stats. What is the issue?

Not the best analogy, but you get the point.

Fortunatly, from what i gathered, there actually isn't even much creep in ESO. When i asked this, it seemed the jump from VR0 to VR10 wasn't even that noticeable. Not enough to 1-2 shot you atleast.

So i imagine VR12 won't have much advantage. Could be wrong though. Really hope not. Seriously, power creep in pvp game modes is just plain idiotic.

 

This is completely and utterly wrong. Between vr1 and vr10 not only do your stat caps all increase by 25%, the armor and weapon damage starts climbing extremely fast as well. The top end damage you will see on a bow at vr1 is about 105 for a purple. At vr10, bow damage on a purple tops neatly 150. That's almost a 50% increase in effectiveness of gear. I say this as a vr6, a vr10 is noticeably harder to kill than a vr1.

Kyleran

Originally posted by Iselin

You're describing the typical vertical progression in any themepark when expansions happen. Well yes, it's why I don't play themepark games in fact.

I don't know how many times I've had the uber gear it took me weeks or months to put together be replaced by normal drop or quest reward greens after an expansion in WOW.  Yep, WOW started it for me, when BC came out and all of my gear went obsolete by level 62, I was done for good with that title. 

The only unusual thing here is that the move from VR10 to VR12 at the top is happening very quickly and without an expansion. No, what is unusual is it would appear that a player might have to actually complete all of the new expansion PVE content, which is group oriented to get to VR12.  Now, if you can get to VR12 by PVPing only, then I've got no issue.  Except, would the gear from the expansion zone be superior to the gear I earned/crafted for myself in PVP, if so, then we're back to the same issue.

But yes, those who are at the top level, whatever that happens to be and whatever it's called, will always have some advantage over those below. In this game it's not the effect of leveling up itself--which is very small-- or of having level-gated super abilities. It's about the "end game" gear you can accumulate and tweak to perfection over time. 

I expect them to have an advantage, I'm just not interested in chasing an eternal PVE ladder in order to PVP effectively.  PVE is great for earning some cash to buy or craft your gear, but it shouldn't increase a person's progressive skill (levels basically) in PVP.

Originally posted by Nanfoodle
This line of think means we need to strip all ways you can advance your char to make things equal. At that end, what is the point of the RPG side of things? Now you have just a battle ground game. 

I don't want to strip out progression, it's a core mainstay.  But I don't want to keep having to run endless PVE content to reach what I consider to be Endgame PVP.  I want the treadmill to stop.

Originally posted by Aeonblades

Originally posted by Ehllfhire
Newsflash: Players who invest more time, have better gear/stats. What is the issue?

I call it the GW2 complex. Most players of that game feel like they should be just as powerful playing 2 hours a week as someone who plays 40 hours a week. It defeats the purpose of an MMORPG in general where time investment = reward.

Funny stuff. I think GW2 went totally the wrong way, but then so did WOW, neither game has the mechanics I'm looking for.

It all comes down to people wanting things for free these days imo  Well then you'd be wrong. It comes down to me not wanting to chase an endless treadmill of PVE and gear to effectively PVP, I want to pay my dues and be done with it.

What I was hoping is that with their DAOC pedigree, they would have avoided the mistake (IMO) that Mythic made with DAOC, that is, the TOA expansion that basically forced players into a raiding gear grind in order to be competitive in RVR.  Think of DAOc right after the SI expansion, but prior to TOA and New Frontiers.  That's where it should have stopped for DAOC, and I wanted to see something like that here.

But it appears that lesson was not carried forward, and they might be going down the traditional road of the standard theme park MMO.  Which is fine, if you care for those sorts of MMO's, but I don't.  I love doing PVE for option reasons, but as far as PVP goes, I want the PVE to not impact the outcome once I get to the "cap" (which should not move)

So this might not be the game for me after all, that's fine, I've still got EVE to return to, or the relaunch of my DAOC free shard, and perhaps it gives me a reason to look more into ArcheAge sooner, rather than later.

 

 

 

 

Aeonblades

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Iselin

You're describing the typical vertical progression in any themepark when expansions happen. Well yes, it's why I don't play themepark games in fact.

I don't know how many times I've had the uber gear it took me weeks or months to put together be replaced by normal drop or quest reward greens after an expansion in WOW.  Yep, WOW started it for me, when BC came out and all of my gear went obsolete by level 62, I was done for good with that title. 

The only unusual thing here is that the move from VR10 to VR12 at the top is happening very quickly and without an expansion. No, what is unusual is it would appear that a player might have to actually complete all of the new expansion PVE content, which is group oriented to get to VR12.  Now, if you can get to VR12 by PVPing only, then I've got no issue.  Except, would the gear from the expansion zone be superior to the gear I earned/crafted for myself in PVP, if so, then we're back to the same issue.

But yes, those who are at the top level, whatever that happens to be and whatever it's called, will always have some advantage over those below. In this game it's not the effect of leveling up itself--which is very small-- or of having level-gated super abilities. It's about the "end game" gear you can accumulate and tweak to perfection over time. 

I expect them to have an advantage, I'm just not interested in chasing an eternal PVE ladder in order to PVP effectively.  PVE is great for earning some cash to buy or craft your gear, but it shouldn't increase a person's progressive skill (levels basically) in PVP.

Originally posted by Nanfoodle
This line of think means we need to strip all ways you can advance your char to make things equal. At that end, what is the point of the RPG side of things? Now you have just a battle ground game. 

I don't want to strip out progression, it's a core mainstay.  But I don't want to keep having to run endless PVE content to reach what I consider to be Endgame PVP.  I want the treadmill to stop.

Originally posted by Aeonblades

Originally posted by Ehllfhire
Newsflash: Players who invest more time, have better gear/stats. What is the issue?

I call it the GW2 complex. Most players of that game feel like they should be just as powerful playing 2 hours a week as someone who plays 40 hours a week. It defeats the purpose of an MMORPG in general where time investment = reward.

Funny stuff. I think GW2 went totally the wrong way, but then so did WOW, neither game has the mechanics I'm looking for.

It all comes down to people wanting things for free these days imo  Well then you'd be wrong. It comes down to me not wanting to chase an endless treadmill of PVE and gear to effectively PVP, I want to pay my dues and be done with it.

What I was hoping is that with their DAOC pedigree, they would have avoided the mistake (IMO) that Mythic made with DAOC, that is, the TOA expansion that basically forced players into a raiding gear grind in order to be competitive in RVR.  Think of DAOc right after the SI expansion, but prior to TOA and New Frontiers.  That's where it should have stopped for DAOC, and I wanted to see something like that here.

But it appears that lesson was not carried forward, and they might be going down the traditional road of the standard theme park MMO.  Which is fine, if you care for those sorts of MMO's, but I don't.  I love doing PVE or option reasons, but as far as PVP goes, I want the PVE to not impact the outcome once I get to the "cap" (which should not move)

So this might not be the game for me after all, that's fine, I've still got EVE to return to, or the relauch of my DAOC freeshard, and perhaps it gives me a reason to look more into ArcheAge sooner, rather than later.

 

 

 

 

Just wanted to clarify, I wasn't accusing you of wanting stuff for free at all, that was not directed at you in any way

You want to be able to play your way and be rewarded a la PvP, and I completely agree with you, I do too!

Kyleran

Originally posted by Aeonblades

Originally posted by Kyleran
 

Just wanted to clarify, I wasn't accusing you of wanting stuff for free at all, that was not directed at you in any way

You want to be able to play your way and be rewarded a la PvP, and I completely agree with you, I do too!

No worries, all just part of the forum fun. 

Gravarg

If you want to level through VR faster than doing quests, get a group of players with a lot of AoE...Find a public group dungeon, run wild spamming aoe.  You'll get from VR1-VR2 in like 30-40 minutes and like 20 minutes for each successive VR.  I'm doing this on my second VR, and it's really fast.

Moar61

Damn, never even made it to level 50 yet and it's already VR12. At  this point I'll never catch up lol

bcbully

Health/Stam/Magika/weapon dmg are all capped in Cyrodiil. The cap is lower than it is in the pve zones.

Uhwop

Firor was responsible for TOA.  

StarI

Originally posted by Kyleran

So I was reading through the upcoming content release/patch notes, and came across the following blurb,

Veteran Rank Updates
You can earn up to Veteran Rank 12 as you continue your adventures in Craglorn. Additionally, the veteran XP earned from killing enemies has more than doubled.

So I haven't done much PVP, but I originally joined this game because I thought when I reached level 50, the playing field would be more or less level, outside of any "realm rank abilities" I might have to earn, a la DAOC.

But they don't really have that system it seems, but they do have VR1-10, and from what I'm reading, players who are VR5 have an  advantage over a VR1, and a VR10 even more so.

Is this really true?   Do we really have to grind our way through all of this PVE content to level the playing field in PVP?  OK, fair enough, I was willing to do it, I'm a PVE'er at heart, and was willing to gut it out.  (well, maybe)

But now I read about the upcoming release, and it says that by doing more PVE, Requiring grouping activities to complete (something I'm not really doing in this game, but that's another thread) which will result in players obtaining VR12 status.

Will a VR12 have substantial advantage over a VR10? If so, then I assume that when the next expansion comes out, it might raise the bar to VR14, and the advantage over VR10's would increase.

I can't see myself going through all of this group based,  PVE in order to keep myself competitive in PVP, so am I really understanding this system correctly, or am I totally missing something?

Thanks in advance to anyone who is willing to help clarify this.

 

 

As it is atm, you got it right. We can debate and make arguments to soothe some facts but it doesn't really change what you figured.

This along with no EU based server made me decide not to sub.

Still it's a nice experience that I can recommend to anyone.

 

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Channce

Originally posted by Uhwop
Firor was responsible for TOA.  

Which btw was a fine expansion, a lot more of us liked it than didn't.

DEAD.line

Originally posted by evilized

Originally posted by DEAD.line

Originally posted by Ehllfhire
Newsflash: Players who invest more time, have better gear/stats. What is the issue?

Not the best analogy, but you get the point.

Fortunatly, from what i gathered, there actually isn't even much creep in ESO. When i asked this, it seemed the jump from VR0 to VR10 wasn't even that noticeable. Not enough to 1-2 shot you atleast.

So i imagine VR12 won't have much advantage. Could be wrong though. Really hope not. Seriously, power creep in pvp game modes is just plain idiotic.

 

This is completely and utterly wrong. Between vr1 and vr10 not only do your stat caps all increase by 25%, the armor and weapon damage starts climbing extremely fast as well. The top end damage you will see on a bow at vr1 is about 105 for a purple. At vr10, bow damage on a purple tops neatly 150. That's almost a 50% increase in effectiveness of gear. I say this as a vr6, a vr10 is noticeably harder to kill than a vr1.

Hm, not looking good. How much health does  vr10 have compared to a vr1? It's weird because i did see a video of a guy take on a level 50 vr? when level 26. 

But a general stats graph would be welcomed for better comparison. Not that i don't trust your quote, just that a general info graph'd be nice.

Apraxis

Originally posted by Aeonblades

Originally posted by Ehllfhire
Newsflash: Players who invest more time, have better gear/stats. What is the issue?

I call it the GW2 complex. Most players of that game feel like they should be just as powerful playing 2 hours a week as someone who plays 40 hours a week. It defeats the purpose of an MMORPG in general where time investment = reward.

 

GW2 is a great game I'd recommend to anyone especially for the leveling experience, but it was held back by lack of character advancement at 80 and a lack of dungeon trinity. Steps are being made to bring in a new (fix for the old) trinity system and more skill advancements, so they are definitely learning!

 

ESO luckily got it right from beginning on the time = reward scale. It's one of the few things they can claim was smooth and ready to go for launch for sure.

 

It all comes down to people wanting things for free these days imo.

I call it the ToA Fail trap. If you force your loyal pvp base in a pvp centric(or as main playstyle possible) into PvE you lose. Exactly that happend in DAoC with the expansion ToA(Trials of Atlantis) as they forced all their players to do the PvE in ToA to be competive in RvR.. the result was mass exodus and DAoC was never the same as before.. they even launched later on classic servers(without ToA) as they recognized their mistake.. but they never really got all those leaving players back.

 

Malabooga

Originally posted by Aeonblades

Originally posted by Ehllfhire
Newsflash: Players who invest more time, have better gear/stats. What is the issue?

I call it the GW2 complex. Most players of that game feel like they should be just as powerful playing 2 hours a week as someone who plays 40 hours a week. It defeats the purpose of an MMORPG in general where time investment = reward.

 

GW2 is a great game I'd recommend to anyone especially for the leveling experience, but it was held back by lack of character advancement at 80 and a lack of dungeon trinity. Steps are being made to bring in a new (fix for the old) trinity system and more skill advancements, so they are definitely learning!

 

ESO luckily got it right from beginning on the time = reward scale. It's one of the few things they can claim was smooth and ready to go for launch for sure.

 

It all comes down to people wanting things for free these days imo.

GW2= skill based game

ESO= gear based game

Its very obvious what you want

And what are these steps lol?