It's not a lack of common sense it's a desire to play a game that looks like it has fun features or game play ,only to find out you can't play it or can't enjoy it because of one aspect of the game.
Look at any new mmo coming out that has a focus on pvp and you'll see people saying oh it's not that bad I hardly ever get killed or even see pvp. That kind of advice may be true at the time but if things change in the game or it's just an outright lie it could easily lead someone into a game they " don't belong in"
Archeage is like this. The game looks great to me and from what I read it has lots of people saying it's not a gankfest. I'm not really the type to bitch and moan on a forum if it does turn out to be I'll just go play something else but not everyone reacts that way and I don't think they should either.
I fell for that line with Pirates of the Burning Sea. I was told that PvP zones would appear sporadically and I could still play most of the game without being bothered by PvP. Then after release they turned the PvP up so much that any location of interest was in a PvP zone 95% of the time. When I realized that, I stopped playing and I am I pay close attention to any new game so I do not fall for the same trick again.
Originally posted by kaiser3282 Hm. Judging by he title I was expecting a poll about griefing. This is a poll about PvP happening. Not remotely the same thing.
BTW, griefing occurs in non-PvP games / areas as well.
Why is everyone so quick to cry that they're being griefed any time PvP happens on a PvP server / game?
Because it happens more often than not in PvP settings?
And yes, griefing does happen in PvE games, too. Players can run mobs over other players. They can kill the guards that should be providing security for the low levels. Sometimes, they can even kill off quest NPCs. Usually (not always), it is much easier to handle. You can report the griefing player. You can move to another area where the griefer is not. If they follow, you now have harassment, usually a ban-able offense.
The attitudes of PvPers here astounds me. You want PvP MMOs made and then do everything in your power to make PvP as unappetizing as possible, even on the forums, let alone the games.
What in your post would help a non-PvP player to try it out? Scorn is certainly not the best way.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Sovrath I'm going to say "no" because the people playing in a game where a higher level player can kill a lower level player should know the game he/she is playing and should roll with the punches.I don't like "running" of any sort. So I don't participate in marathons.I don't like "Swing Dancing" so I don't Swing Dance (though I like to watch it)There really is no issue here. If one does not like or cannot tolerate this type of game then don't play it. Problem solved.
That would require common sense. Most mmorpg players are lacking in that area.
It's not a lack of common sense it's a desire to play a game that looks like it has fun features or game play ,only to find out you can't play it or can't enjoy it because of one aspect of the game.Look at any new mmo coming out that has a focus on pvp and you'll see people saying oh it's not that bad I hardly ever get killed or even see pvp. That kind of advice may be true at the time but if things change in the game or it's just an outright lie it could easily lead someone into a game they " don't belong in"Archeage is like this. The game looks great to me and from what I read it has lots of people saying it's not a gankfest. I'm not really the type to bitch and moan on a forum if it does turn out to be I'll just go play something else but not everyone reacts that way and I don't think they should either.
Exactly. I like a lot of features in ArchAge. Sadly, I'm staying clear away from that game. There was also an MMO re-released recently (something about Unholy Wars?) that was a PvP-centric MMO that I totally avoided, though it had some interesting features I would have liked to try out.
A player may see some features that may entice them to play. They may purchase it (or download and install if F2P) thinking, "Maybe I can avoid/stomach the PvP." Thanks to the players, the PvP usually becomes unpalatable.
Do these players lack common sense for wanting to give it a try? I must be full of common sense because I will avoid Open World PvP like the plague, no matter what other players say.
Now, on the other hand, there is a lot of "CHANGE THIS GAME TO SUIT ME!" players. This is whole 'nother ball of wax
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Sovrath I'm going to say "no" because the people playing in a game where a higher level player can kill a lower level player should know the game he/she is playing and should roll with the punches.
I don't like "running" of any sort. So I don't participate in marathons.
I don't like "Swing Dancing" so I don't Swing Dance (though I like to watch it)
There really is no issue here. If one does not like or cannot tolerate this type of game then don't play it. Problem solved.
That would require common sense. Most mmorpg players are lacking in that area.
It's not a lack of common sense it's a desire to play a game that looks like it has fun features or game play ,only to find out you can't play it or can't enjoy it because of one aspect of the game.
Look at any new mmo coming out that has a focus on pvp and you'll see people saying oh it's not that bad I hardly ever get killed or even see pvp. That kind of advice may be true at the time but if things change in the game or it's just an outright lie it could easily lead someone into a game they " don't belong in"
Archeage is like this. The game looks great to me and from what I read it has lots of people saying it's not a gankfest. I'm not really the type to bitch and moan on a forum if it does turn out to be I'll just go play something else but not everyone reacts that way and I don't think they should either.
Exactly. I like a lot of features in ArchAge. Sadly, I'm staying clear away from that game. There was also an MMO re-released recently (something about Unholy Wars?) that was a PvP-centric MMO that I totally avoided, though it had some interesting features I would have liked to try out.
A player may see some features that may entice them to play. They may purchase it (or download and install if F2P) thinking, "Maybe I can avoid/stomach the PvP." Thanks to the players, the PvP usually becomes unpalatable.
Do these players lack common sense for wanting to give it a try? I must be full of common sense because I will avoid Open World PvP like the plague, no matter what other players say.
Now, on the other hand, there is a lot of "CHANGE THIS GAME TO SUIT ME!" players. This is whole 'nother ball of wax
So there aren't going to be PvE servers on ArcheAge then? If so, that's really disappointing. No wonder it is doing so poorly in Korea.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV Have played: You name it If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
Originally posted by Aeonblades So there aren't going to be PvE servers on ArcheAge then? If so, that's really disappointing. No wonder it is doing so poorly in Korea.
I do not know. I have not been following the MMO because of the PvP.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
So there aren't going to be PvE servers on ArcheAge then? If so, that's really disappointing. No wonder it is doing so poorly in Korea.
Yes. Korea, where heavy PVP games like Aion, Lineage 2 and TERA prosper. Archeage failed because of it's open world pvp. Makes perfect sense. Not to meantion MOBAS and FPS games.
BTW, AA is owpvp, but there are safe zones from 1-30, where no pvp happens, and level 30-50 zones have war and peace times. Aslong as you're not there during war times, you're good. Honeslty, it seems that it was because of this limited pvp system, and patch 1.0, that AA had problems in Korea. Not completly sure.
Griefing is annoying, that much is certain, but welcome to PVP and more specifically: open, unrestricted PVP. I'm not condoning what those ass hats are doing. Killing a low level player is one thing, but purposely being a jerk about it and doing it over and over (or in the case of the Lineage II example) not allowing them to leave the city; is just not right.
Just to be fair, sometimes low level player bite off more than they can chew. If a low level player attacks a high level player, they deserve whatever is coming to them.
Raquelis in various games Played: Everything Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6 Wants: The World Anticipating:Everquest NextCrowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
So there aren't going to be PvE servers on ArcheAge then? If so, that's really disappointing. No wonder it is doing so poorly in Korea.
Yes. Korea, where heavy PVP games like Aion, Lineage 2 and TERA prosper. Archeage failed because of it's open world pvp. Makes perfect sense. Not to meantion MOBAS and FPS games.
BTW, AA is owpvp, but there are safe zones from 1-30, where no pvp happens, and level 30-50 zones have war and peace times. Aslong as you're not there during war times, you're good. Honeslty, it seems that it was because of this limited pvp system, and patch 1.0, that AA had problems in Korea. Not completly sure.
All 3 of those games had PvE servers too though right? I'm honestly not sure about L2 but I could of sworn Aion and TERA offer PvE only servers. Either way, open PvP does far worse in the states anyway. I'm pretty sure Trion knows this and will offer a PvE only server.
Thankfully we have choices these days and don't have to let one kid with a superiority complex harass us in games anymore. If they don't offer it, it will not do well in the states I fear.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV Have played: You name it If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
It only took one time for me to find out. I rolled up a character on EQ's PvP server. Deleted that character and stuck to the PvE servers from then on. Since that time, I have NOT bought a PvP centric game. I avoided getting UO and DAoC, because of their PvP. I will NEVER buy an open world PvP MMO. Never. Thanks to the players playing them.
That one character experience has ruined PvP for me forever. Was that the positive and fun experience that some PvP players desire other players to experience?
"It takes just one time and I am uninstalling ..." implies what you would do in such a scenario.
"It took just one time and I uninstalled ..." implies what you did do in such a scenario.
The latter would have avoided any confusion.
Re. positive and fun;
I doubt any PvPer cares, if you've been happy playing PvE from then to now, rock on. If you choose to base all future games on the result of action(s) that occurred in a prior game then that's up to you, but I can't help but feel that if everyone applied that logic to everything in life, we (as a species) would not get much done, but whatever.
If you play all the way to lvl 30 in safezones I would think that would be enough for many. You don't really even lose much on death anyway in AA. I'm a PvE player that is having a blast in Darkfall of all games. I'm that desperate for an open world game that isn't a linear quest hub grinder. Risk vs Reward can be a lot of fun if you all would give it a chance.
I'm going to say "no" because the people playing in a game where a higher level player can kill a lower level player should know the game he/she is playing and should roll with the punches.
I don't like "running" of any sort. So I don't participate in marathons.
I don't like "Swing Dancing" so I don't Swing Dance (though I like to watch it)
There really is no issue here. If one does not like or cannot tolerate this type of game then don't play it. Problem solved.
That would require common sense. Most mmorpg players are lacking in that area.
It's not a lack of common sense it's a desire to play a game that looks like it has fun features or game play ,only to find out you can't play it or can't enjoy it because of one aspect of the game.
Look at any new mmo coming out that has a focus on pvp and you'll see people saying oh it's not that bad I hardly ever get killed or even see pvp. That kind of advice may be true at the time but if things change in the game or it's just an outright lie it could easily lead someone into a game they " don't belong in"
Archeage is like this. The game looks great to me and from what I read it has lots of people saying it's not a gankfest. I'm not really the type to bitch and moan on a forum if it does turn out to be I'll just go play something else but not everyone reacts that way and I don't think they should either.
ok great, but "that's life". I don't mean to be dismissive but there are a lot of great, interesting things out there that, when looked at with greater scrutiny, might not fit what one might think is fun.
The problem here is that some people assume that all games should cater to all play styles. And, if this was a perfect world, we could get that.
But they don't for a variety of reasons. the two large ones might be resources or the developers just aren't interested.
So in the end, regardless of whether one feels that a game has great features, if the game has what you would consider features that just don't fit your "fun" then it's not for you.
Heck, it's like dating. Just because she's gorgeous doesn't mean that she has what you are looking for or that you would be a good fit. Better to move on.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by AlBQuirky It only took one time for me to find out. I rolled up a character on EQ's PvP server. Deleted that character and stuck to the PvE servers from then on. Since that time, I have NOT bought a PvP centric game. I avoided getting UO and DAoC, because of their PvP. I will NEVER buy an open world PvP MMO. Never. Thanks to the players playing them.
That one character experience has ruined PvP for me forever. Was that the positive and fun experience that some PvP players desire other players to experience?
"It takes just one time and I am uninstalling ..." implies what you would do in such a scenario.
"It took just one time and I uninstalled ..." implies what you did do in such a scenario.
The latter would have avoided any confusion.
Re. positive and fun;
I doubt any PvPer cares, if you've been happy playing PvE from then to now, rock on. If you choose to base all future games on the result of action(s) that occurred in a prior game then that's up to you, but I can't help but feel that if everyone applied that logic to everything in life, we (as a species) would not get much done, but whatever.
I stand, er... SIT corrected I have yet to uninstall an MMO due to PvP. I have yet to install one
Re: positive and fun I know full well that PvPers care not one whit about me. But I am not alone in my thinking. So PvPers will complain that they cannot get their OWPvP MMOs made, when they are the ones keeping them on the shelf.
Players, the cause of griefing in MMOs, have not, nor will they ever change. I will not look at an OWPvP MMO because of players, not game mechanics. Once players start acting like human beings while on the internet, then, maybe, I will look at OWPvP games.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
All 3 of those games had PvE servers too though right? I'm honestly not sure about L2 but I could of sworn Aion and TERA offer PvE only servers. Either way, open PvP does far worse in the states anyway. I'm pretty sure Trion knows this and will offer a PvE only server.
Thankfully we have choices these days and don't have to let one kid with a superiority complex harass us in games anymore. If they don't offer it, it will not do well in the states I fear.
I meant Lineage 1. And from what i know, not even TERA as different rule set servers. Aion as rifting, Lineage as Karma points (the first one as it, right?), and TERA, again from what i know, as an outlaw pk system. I'm not saying Koreans only want pvp, or love owpvp, etc. I'm simply saying that it's not that black and white for them.
Oh, and regarding NA, atleast Aion and some others can prosper in SK. Looking at the history of mmorpgs in the states, they all start losing players very quickly. And yes, owpvp in particular.
But, i'm not going to derail the thread any more. Sorry.
Regardless of personal feelings on PVP in this matter should not reflect the answer. The question is pretty simple. Will it drive players away, yes, then yes it can "hurt" a game. Less players is always a hit. Doesn't matter if you like PVP, or think carebears shouldn't be on a PVP server, those are different arguments. Granted, those players probably wouldn't stick around anyways, and probably are trying a game they wouldn't like, but not really the question.
Personally, if I don't like the way something is, i'll just bail and go find something I do like til I find an actual home.
Like when Darkfall first launched in NA. I was excited, had been watching Darkfall Dev for years, finally got it, logged into the game...and was ganked about 12-20 seconds after loading my first time. I quite literally logged into the game, spun around to look and see how the graphics were, and then was killed. I still tried to play the game for quite some time, got better, did things, figured out the mechanics, etc...but inevitably I was bored by the fact that there was 0% of the PVE content I could explore without dealing with the PVP, I couldn't fish, lumber, kill goblins, or just go look around without having to defend and/or get killed by other players, usually groups outnumbering. As excited as I was for the game, and as much as I almost liked it, it clearly wasn't for me and I left. Didn't complain or anything, just moved on to find something I would personally enjoy more.
All I'll say is that I've played PVE and PVP games. DAoC, Uo, Wow (Yes played on Illidan, pvp server) and a whole host of other games. Does griefing suck? Yes. Is griefing annoying/frustrating? Yes. Does griefing hurt the player base? Kinda. Kinda in the fact that people who DONT LIKE PVP shouldn't play a pvp game/server. Those are the ppl that typically leave the game because of it.
I played UO, open/full loot pvp world and there was always a TON of ppl playing. Not to mention it is still going today and the patriarch of this genre. Did griefing happen there, yes. Was the game still successful, yes...
I would say to many people who don't like open pvp, play these games, hate it, log/delete char and then bitch about it. I hate griefing, but I enjoy the overall game more. I guess I am willing to deal with some things just cause I love the game.
In the end it does hurt the player base cause it is stopping some users from playing the game, but then again it sounds like those people shouldn't be there in the first place.
In the end, the genre needs to become more divided IMO, we need niche games. A open world / full loot MMO and then others that are themeparks and sandboxes and what not. This way everyone gets satisfied with the type of game they like. There is a flaw here, because niche games divide people more, which means each game has less ppl, which in turn means they make less money. However I think this is the only way that the player base will be satisfied. I think it is already happening as well, with kickstarter and indie games becoming more prevalent and a lot of the vocal gamers stating issues with the current themepark/sandbox norms.
Originally posted by Mardukk I have no problem with being ganked. I don't care for griefing as that implies that the person is killing you over and over again. Some many scared people in this thread, it really isn't that bad geeez.
For me, it takes just ONE time and I am uninstalling. Not my idea of fun, especially if I paying for it.
If you dislike it that much why would you buy, install and login to a game knowing full well that PvP is a (major) part of it?
Personally I enjoy games with the potential for player vs player conflict despite not being much of a PvPer.
In EVE, making forays into wh/low/null sec were really enjoyable because of the potential to lose my ship and cargo, being more aware of my surroundings, getting chased or deciding to fight or flee added an additional depth to a game. Being able to go everywhere without a care in the world would mean everyone gravitates to where income is highest.
Risk vs reward is necessary in my opinion.
I see this argument time and time again used to defend innocents taking the risk, but what risk is the attacker taking when he's several levels higher than the person he's attacking? The pendulum has to swing both ways for the system to feel balanced for both types of players. And don't give me that, find a group or call some guildmates. Several players game at obscure times throughout the day, so the system in place should be accounting for this.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Personally I enjoy games with the potential for player vs player conflict despite not being much of a PvPer.
In EVE, making forays into wh/low/null sec were really enjoyable because of the potential to lose my ship and cargo, being more aware of my surroundings, getting chased or deciding to fight or flee added an additional depth to a game. Being able to go everywhere without a care in the world would mean everyone gravitates to where income is highest.
Risk vs reward is necessary in my opinion.
I see this argument time and time again used to defend innocents taking the risk, but what risk is the attacker taking when he's several levels higher than the person he's attacking? The pendulum has to swing both ways for the system to feel balanced for both types of players. And don't give me that, find a group or call some guildmates. Several players game at obscure times throughout the day, so the system in place should be accounting for this.
Well then there are flaws in game mechanics. If you can level/gear yourself into OP position compared to starter. Skill should be the crucial factor. Example; WoW. After every expansion and update earlier gear becomes useless. More horizontal approach would be good in many games and not this traditional level/gear grinding.
Regardless of personal feelings on PVP in this matter should not reflect the answer. The question is pretty simple. Will it drive players away, yes, then yes it can "hurt" a game. Less players is always a hit. Doesn't matter if you like PVP, or think carebears shouldn't be on a PVP server, those are different arguments. Granted, those players probably wouldn't stick around anyways, and probably are trying a game they wouldn't like, but not really the question.
Personally, if I don't like the way something is, i'll just bail and go find something I do like til I find an actual home.
Like when Darkfall first launched in NA. I was excited, had been watching Darkfall Dev for years, finally got it, logged into the game...and was ganked about 12-20 seconds after loading my first time. I quite literally logged into the game, spun around to look and see how the graphics were, and then was killed. I still tried to play the game for quite some time, got better, did things, figured out the mechanics, etc...but inevitably I was bored by the fact that there was 0% of the PVE content I could explore without dealing with the PVP, I couldn't fish, lumber, kill goblins, or just go look around without having to defend and/or get killed by other players, usually groups outnumbering. As excited as I was for the game, and as much as I almost liked it, it clearly wasn't for me and I left. Didn't complain or anything, just moved on to find something I would personally enjoy more.
Maybe pvp games arent for you then?? Theres tons of safe themeparks already. I for one LOVE how the pvp is interwined with the PvE, so going out to kill 10 goblins isnt just a mindless drone task, but I have to check my surroundings just like if I were to buy something in a "wrong neighbourhood" IRL..
I ALSO LOVE TO GET GANKED AND GRIEFED. It gives me a reason to fight other players. Just write theyre name down and when you feel your strong enough, go find them and kill them. Most satisfying thing Ive done in a MMO.
Oh so you dont like to get griefed/ganked? Well you are SO LUCKY, theres 1000s games for you to choose. Us? we only get a few indie titles, so quit whining "oooh I love feature X about MMORPG but it has full pvp, y cant they change it fo me??"
Regardless of personal feelings on PVP in this matter should not reflect the answer. The question is pretty simple. Will it drive players away, yes, then yes it can "hurt" a game. Less players is always a hit. Doesn't matter if you like PVP, or think carebears shouldn't be on a PVP server, those are different arguments. Granted, those players probably wouldn't stick around anyways, and probably are trying a game they wouldn't like, but not really the question.
Personally, if I don't like the way something is, i'll just bail and go find something I do like til I find an actual home.
Like when Darkfall first launched in NA. I was excited, had been watching Darkfall Dev for years, finally got it, logged into the game...and was ganked about 12-20 seconds after loading my first time. I quite literally logged into the game, spun around to look and see how the graphics were, and then was killed. I still tried to play the game for quite some time, got better, did things, figured out the mechanics, etc...but inevitably I was bored by the fact that there was 0% of the PVE content I could explore without dealing with the PVP, I couldn't fish, lumber, kill goblins, or just go look around without having to defend and/or get killed by other players, usually groups outnumbering. As excited as I was for the game, and as much as I almost liked it, it clearly wasn't for me and I left. Didn't complain or anything, just moved on to find something I would personally enjoy more.
Maybe pvp games arent for you then?? Theres tons of safe themeparks already. I for one LOVE how the pvp is interwined with the PvE, so going out to kill 10 goblins isnt just a mindless drone task, but I have to check my surroundings just like if I were to buy something in a "wrong neighbourhood" IRL..
I ALSO LOVE TO GET GANKED AND GRIEFED. It gives me a reason to fight other players. Just write theyre name down and when you feel your strong enough, go find them and kill them. Most satisfying thing Ive done in a MMO.
Oh so you dont like to get griefed/ganked? Well you are SO LUCKY, theres 1000s games for you to choose. Us? we only get a few indie titles, so quit whining "oooh I love feature X about MMORPG but it has full pvp, y cant they change it fo me??"
The irony, it burns. After so many "y no full pvp da fuq" posts on every mmo that has released in the past 5 years, griefers and gankers still don't understand why their games fail and why they are the ones who burn their games to the ground.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV Have played: You name it If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
I see this argument time and time again used to defend innocents taking the risk, but what risk is the attacker taking when he's several levels higher than the person he's attacking? The pendulum has to swing both ways for the system to feel balanced for both types of players. And don't give me that, find a group or call some guildmates. Several players game at obscure times throughout the day, so the system in place should be accounting for this.
One example I can think of relevant to my experience, I visit a wormhole with the intention of running some Sleeper sites hoping to get some decent loot. While running the site I get jumped by another player, he has now announced his presence to anyone else in the system within d-scan range, he will also get agression from the NPCs within the site. Perhaps I'm bait?
Perhaps other players were cloaked nearby hoping to get me and now they have 2 potential killmails, perhaps they will be waiting at the wormhole exit etc.
I agree that there are not enough mechanics for repercussions in most games featuring PvP. Archeage's blood trail /jury /exile system sounds quite decent.
Regardless of personal feelings on PVP in this matter should not reflect the answer. The question is pretty simple. Will it drive players away, yes, then yes it can "hurt" a game. Less players is always a hit. Doesn't matter if you like PVP, or think carebears shouldn't be on a PVP server, those are different arguments. Granted, those players probably wouldn't stick around anyways, and probably are trying a game they wouldn't like, but not really the question.
Personally, if I don't like the way something is, i'll just bail and go find something I do like til I find an actual home.
Like when Darkfall first launched in NA. I was excited, had been watching Darkfall Dev for years, finally got it, logged into the game...and was ganked about 12-20 seconds after loading my first time. I quite literally logged into the game, spun around to look and see how the graphics were, and then was killed. I still tried to play the game for quite some time, got better, did things, figured out the mechanics, etc...but inevitably I was bored by the fact that there was 0% of the PVE content I could explore without dealing with the PVP, I couldn't fish, lumber, kill goblins, or just go look around without having to defend and/or get killed by other players, usually groups outnumbering. As excited as I was for the game, and as much as I almost liked it, it clearly wasn't for me and I left. Didn't complain or anything, just moved on to find something I would personally enjoy more.
Maybe pvp games arent for you then?? Theres tons of safe themeparks already. I for one LOVE how the pvp is interwined with the PvE, so going out to kill 10 goblins isnt just a mindless drone task, but I have to check my surroundings just like if I were to buy something in a "wrong neighbourhood" IRL..
I ALSO LOVE TO GET GANKED AND GRIEFED. It gives me a reason to fight other players. Just write theyre name down and when you feel your strong enough, go find them and kill them. Most satisfying thing Ive done in a MMO.
Oh so you dont like to get griefed/ganked? Well you are SO LUCKY, theres 1000s games for you to choose. Us? we only get a few indie titles, so quit whining "oooh I love feature X about MMORPG but it has full pvp, y cant they change it fo me??"
The irony, it burns. After so many "y no full pvp da fuq" posts on every mmo that has released in the past 5 years, griefers and gankers still don't understand why their games fail and why they are the ones who burn their games to the ground.
And why do they fail? Because theyre open world pvp games in the first place? lol... And theres indie games out there that might not have WoWs subscription numbers but they arent failures by any stretch. Heard of Eve?
Griefing and ganking is a part of these games, it will always happen. There can be things to lessen its impact like NPC guards, flagging system, etc. but its always gonna be present. And were not burning any game down, just weeding out the ppl that shouldnt have chosen that game in the first place.
I'm going to say "no" because the people playing in a game where a higher level player can kill a lower level player should know the game he/she is playing and should roll with the punches.
I don't like "running" of any sort. So I don't participate in marathons.
I don't like "Swing Dancing" so I don't Swing Dance (though I like to watch it)
There really is no issue here. If one does not like or cannot tolerate this type of game then don't play it. Problem solved.
That would require common sense. Most mmorpg players are lacking in that area.
It's not a lack of common sense it's a desire to play a game that looks like it has fun features or game play ,only to find out you can't play it or can't enjoy it because of one aspect of the game.
Look at any new mmo coming out that has a focus on pvp and you'll see people saying oh it's not that bad I hardly ever get killed or even see pvp. That kind of advice may be true at the time but if things change in the game or it's just an outright lie it could easily lead someone into a game they " don't belong in"
Archeage is like this. The game looks great to me and from what I read it has lots of people saying it's not a gankfest. I'm not really the type to bitch and moan on a forum if it does turn out to be I'll just go play something else but not everyone reacts that way and I don't think they should either.
ok great, but "that's life". I don't mean to be dismissive but there are a lot of great, interesting things out there that, when looked at with greater scrutiny, might not fit what one might think is fun.
The problem here is that some people assume that all games should cater to all play styles. And, if this was a perfect world, we could get that.
But they don't for a variety of reasons. the two large ones might be resources or the developers just aren't interested.
So in the end, regardless of whether one feels that a game has great features, if the game has what you would consider features that just don't fit your "fun" then it's not for you.
Heck, it's like dating. Just because she's gorgeous doesn't mean that she has what you are looking for or that you would be a good fit. Better to move on.
Yes but you'd have to date her to find out.
When people complain after, was it the intention of the devs to have a game where high level players are running around ganking noobs at will or is there some system that's not working.
Take eve for instance. If concord showed up in a ship that couldn't hope to ever do anything to even the most basic pirate would the players be right in saying the system isn't working and needs to be changed or should they just say oh well this is how the game is and move on to something else.
Regardless of personal feelings on PVP in this matter should not reflect the answer. The question is pretty simple. Will it drive players away, yes, then yes it can "hurt" a game. Less players is always a hit. Doesn't matter if you like PVP, or think carebears shouldn't be on a PVP server, those are different arguments. Granted, those players probably wouldn't stick around anyways, and probably are trying a game they wouldn't like, but not really the question.
Personally, if I don't like the way something is, i'll just bail and go find something I do like til I find an actual home.
Like when Darkfall first launched in NA. I was excited, had been watching Darkfall Dev for years, finally got it, logged into the game...and was ganked about 12-20 seconds after loading my first time. I quite literally logged into the game, spun around to look and see how the graphics were, and then was killed. I still tried to play the game for quite some time, got better, did things, figured out the mechanics, etc...but inevitably I was bored by the fact that there was 0% of the PVE content I could explore without dealing with the PVP, I couldn't fish, lumber, kill goblins, or just go look around without having to defend and/or get killed by other players, usually groups outnumbering. As excited as I was for the game, and as much as I almost liked it, it clearly wasn't for me and I left. Didn't complain or anything, just moved on to find something I would personally enjoy more.
Maybe pvp games arent for you then?? Theres tons of safe themeparks already. I for one LOVE how the pvp is interwined with the PvE, so going out to kill 10 goblins isnt just a mindless drone task, but I have to check my surroundings just like if I were to buy something in a "wrong neighbourhood" IRL..
I ALSO LOVE TO GET GANKED AND GRIEFED. It gives me a reason to fight other players. Just write theyre name down and when you feel your strong enough, go find them and kill them. Most satisfying thing Ive done in a MMO.
Oh so you dont like to get griefed/ganked? Well you are SO LUCKY, theres 1000s games for you to choose. Us? we only get a few indie titles, so quit whining "oooh I love feature X about MMORPG but it has full pvp, y cant they change it fo me??"
The irony, it burns. After so many "y no full pvp da fuq" posts on every mmo that has released in the past 5 years, griefers and gankers still don't understand why their games fail and why they are the ones who burn their games to the ground.
And why do they fail? Because theyre open world pvp games in the first place? lol... And theres indie games out there that might not have WoWs subscription numbers but they arent failures by any stretch. Heard of Eve?
Griefing and ganking is a part of these games, it will always happen. There can be things to lessen its impact like NPC guards, flagging system, etc. but its always gonna be present. And were not burning any game down, just weeding out the ppl that shouldnt have chosen that game in the first place.
Shrug, no skin off my teeth, enjoy your ghost towns. Eve is a horrible example btw, the game is known to have the worst community in MMO's by far.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV Have played: You name it If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
Well then there are flaws in game mechanics. If you can level/gear yourself into OP position compared to starter. Skill should be the crucial factor. Example; WoW. After every expansion and update earlier gear becomes useless. More horizontal approach would be good in many games and not this traditional level/gear grinding.
And this sums up most of the situations. Darkfalls simply does not have any mechanics to create a proper balance. it's "police it yourself " game. pvp servers in pve themeparks are also the same. The mistake everyone makes is that many owpvp games don't have the gameplay elements in them to properly regulate players.
Unfortunatly, as shown in this thread, even if the game as said features, the moment a player gets ganked, even if the penalty for non combatants is basicaly non-existant, they over-react to it, and ragequit over nothing special.
And this also ilustrates why devs keep makign skinner box games. If you present players with a situation that might cause discomcort, no matter how minimal, they'll dramatize it.
Comments
I fell for that line with Pirates of the Burning Sea. I was told that PvP zones would appear sporadically and I could still play most of the game without being bothered by PvP. Then after release they turned the PvP up so much that any location of interest was in a PvP zone 95% of the time. When I realized that, I stopped playing and I am I pay close attention to any new game so I do not fall for the same trick again.
And yes, griefing does happen in PvE games, too. Players can run mobs over other players. They can kill the guards that should be providing security for the low levels. Sometimes, they can even kill off quest NPCs. Usually (not always), it is much easier to handle. You can report the griefing player. You can move to another area where the griefer is not. If they follow, you now have harassment, usually a ban-able offense.
The attitudes of PvPers here astounds me. You want PvP MMOs made and then do everything in your power to make PvP as unappetizing as possible, even on the forums, let alone the games.
What in your post would help a non-PvP player to try it out? Scorn is certainly not the best way.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
A player may see some features that may entice them to play. They may purchase it (or download and install if F2P) thinking, "Maybe I can avoid/stomach the PvP." Thanks to the players, the PvP usually becomes unpalatable.
Do these players lack common sense for wanting to give it a try? I must be full of common sense because I will avoid Open World PvP like the plague, no matter what other players say.
Now, on the other hand, there is a lot of "CHANGE THIS GAME TO SUIT ME!" players. This is whole 'nother ball of wax
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
So there aren't going to be PvE servers on ArcheAge then? If so, that's really disappointing. No wonder it is doing so poorly in Korea.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Yes. Korea, where heavy PVP games like Aion, Lineage 2 and TERA prosper. Archeage failed because of it's open world pvp. Makes perfect sense. Not to meantion MOBAS and FPS games.
BTW, AA is owpvp, but there are safe zones from 1-30, where no pvp happens, and level 30-50 zones have war and peace times. Aslong as you're not there during war times, you're good. Honeslty, it seems that it was because of this limited pvp system, and patch 1.0, that AA had problems in Korea. Not completly sure.
Griefing is annoying, that much is certain, but welcome to PVP and more specifically: open, unrestricted PVP. I'm not condoning what those ass hats are doing. Killing a low level player is one thing, but purposely being a jerk about it and doing it over and over (or in the case of the Lineage II example) not allowing them to leave the city; is just not right.
Just to be fair, sometimes low level player bite off more than they can chew. If a low level player attacks a high level player, they deserve whatever is coming to them.
Raquelis in various games
Played: Everything
Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6
Wants: The World
Anticipating: Everquest Next Crowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
All 3 of those games had PvE servers too though right? I'm honestly not sure about L2 but I could of sworn Aion and TERA offer PvE only servers. Either way, open PvP does far worse in the states anyway. I'm pretty sure Trion knows this and will offer a PvE only server.
Thankfully we have choices these days and don't have to let one kid with a superiority complex harass us in games anymore. If they don't offer it, it will not do well in the states I fear.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
"It takes just one time and I am uninstalling ..." implies what you would do in such a scenario.
"It took just one time and I uninstalled ..." implies what you did do in such a scenario.
The latter would have avoided any confusion.
Re. positive and fun;
I doubt any PvPer cares, if you've been happy playing PvE from then to now, rock on. If you choose to base all future games on the result of action(s) that occurred in a prior game then that's up to you, but I can't help but feel that if everyone applied that logic to everything in life, we (as a species) would not get much done, but whatever.
ok great, but "that's life". I don't mean to be dismissive but there are a lot of great, interesting things out there that, when looked at with greater scrutiny, might not fit what one might think is fun.
The problem here is that some people assume that all games should cater to all play styles. And, if this was a perfect world, we could get that.
But they don't for a variety of reasons. the two large ones might be resources or the developers just aren't interested.
So in the end, regardless of whether one feels that a game has great features, if the game has what you would consider features that just don't fit your "fun" then it's not for you.
Heck, it's like dating. Just because she's gorgeous doesn't mean that she has what you are looking for or that you would be a good fit. Better to move on.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Re: positive and fun
I know full well that PvPers care not one whit about me. But I am not alone in my thinking. So PvPers will complain that they cannot get their OWPvP MMOs made, when they are the ones keeping them on the shelf.
Players, the cause of griefing in MMOs, have not, nor will they ever change. I will not look at an OWPvP MMO because of players, not game mechanics. Once players start acting like human beings while on the internet, then, maybe, I will look at OWPvP games.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Simple fix for the average theme park game.
When you start your new character you need to select from an option:
[ ] Yes: I wish to be ganked while leveling.
[ ] No: I do not wish to be ganked while leveling.
I meant Lineage 1. And from what i know, not even TERA as different rule set servers. Aion as rifting, Lineage as Karma points (the first one as it, right?), and TERA, again from what i know, as an outlaw pk system. I'm not saying Koreans only want pvp, or love owpvp, etc. I'm simply saying that it's not that black and white for them.
Oh, and regarding NA, atleast Aion and some others can prosper in SK. Looking at the history of mmorpgs in the states, they all start losing players very quickly. And yes, owpvp in particular.
But, i'm not going to derail the thread any more. Sorry.
Regardless of personal feelings on PVP in this matter should not reflect the answer. The question is pretty simple. Will it drive players away, yes, then yes it can "hurt" a game. Less players is always a hit. Doesn't matter if you like PVP, or think carebears shouldn't be on a PVP server, those are different arguments. Granted, those players probably wouldn't stick around anyways, and probably are trying a game they wouldn't like, but not really the question.
Personally, if I don't like the way something is, i'll just bail and go find something I do like til I find an actual home.
Like when Darkfall first launched in NA. I was excited, had been watching Darkfall Dev for years, finally got it, logged into the game...and was ganked about 12-20 seconds after loading my first time. I quite literally logged into the game, spun around to look and see how the graphics were, and then was killed. I still tried to play the game for quite some time, got better, did things, figured out the mechanics, etc...but inevitably I was bored by the fact that there was 0% of the PVE content I could explore without dealing with the PVP, I couldn't fish, lumber, kill goblins, or just go look around without having to defend and/or get killed by other players, usually groups outnumbering. As excited as I was for the game, and as much as I almost liked it, it clearly wasn't for me and I left. Didn't complain or anything, just moved on to find something I would personally enjoy more.
~I am Many~
All I'll say is that I've played PVE and PVP games. DAoC, Uo, Wow (Yes played on Illidan, pvp server) and a whole host of other games. Does griefing suck? Yes. Is griefing annoying/frustrating? Yes. Does griefing hurt the player base? Kinda. Kinda in the fact that people who DONT LIKE PVP shouldn't play a pvp game/server. Those are the ppl that typically leave the game because of it.
I played UO, open/full loot pvp world and there was always a TON of ppl playing. Not to mention it is still going today and the patriarch of this genre. Did griefing happen there, yes. Was the game still successful, yes...
I would say to many people who don't like open pvp, play these games, hate it, log/delete char and then bitch about it. I hate griefing, but I enjoy the overall game more. I guess I am willing to deal with some things just cause I love the game.
In the end it does hurt the player base cause it is stopping some users from playing the game, but then again it sounds like those people shouldn't be there in the first place.
In the end, the genre needs to become more divided IMO, we need niche games. A open world / full loot MMO and then others that are themeparks and sandboxes and what not. This way everyone gets satisfied with the type of game they like. There is a flaw here, because niche games divide people more, which means each game has less ppl, which in turn means they make less money. However I think this is the only way that the player base will be satisfied. I think it is already happening as well, with kickstarter and indie games becoming more prevalent and a lot of the vocal gamers stating issues with the current themepark/sandbox norms.
Time will tell.
I see this argument time and time again used to defend innocents taking the risk, but what risk is the attacker taking when he's several levels higher than the person he's attacking? The pendulum has to swing both ways for the system to feel balanced for both types of players. And don't give me that, find a group or call some guildmates. Several players game at obscure times throughout the day, so the system in place should be accounting for this.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Well then there are flaws in game mechanics. If you can level/gear yourself into OP position compared to starter. Skill should be the crucial factor. Example; WoW. After every expansion and update earlier gear becomes useless. More horizontal approach would be good in many games and not this traditional level/gear grinding.
Maybe pvp games arent for you then?? Theres tons of safe themeparks already. I for one LOVE how the pvp is interwined with the PvE, so going out to kill 10 goblins isnt just a mindless drone task, but I have to check my surroundings just like if I were to buy something in a "wrong neighbourhood" IRL..
I ALSO LOVE TO GET GANKED AND GRIEFED. It gives me a reason to fight other players. Just write theyre name down and when you feel your strong enough, go find them and kill them. Most satisfying thing Ive done in a MMO.
Oh so you dont like to get griefed/ganked? Well you are SO LUCKY, theres 1000s games for you to choose. Us? we only get a few indie titles, so quit whining "oooh I love feature X about MMORPG but it has full pvp, y cant they change it fo me??"
The irony, it burns. After so many "y no full pvp da fuq" posts on every mmo that has released in the past 5 years, griefers and gankers still don't understand why their games fail and why they are the ones who burn their games to the ground.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
One example I can think of relevant to my experience, I visit a wormhole with the intention of running some Sleeper sites hoping to get some decent loot. While running the site I get jumped by another player, he has now announced his presence to anyone else in the system within d-scan range, he will also get agression from the NPCs within the site. Perhaps I'm bait?
Perhaps other players were cloaked nearby hoping to get me and now they have 2 potential killmails, perhaps they will be waiting at the wormhole exit etc.
I agree that there are not enough mechanics for repercussions in most games featuring PvP. Archeage's blood trail /jury /exile system sounds quite decent.
And why do they fail? Because theyre open world pvp games in the first place? lol... And theres indie games out there that might not have WoWs subscription numbers but they arent failures by any stretch. Heard of Eve?
Griefing and ganking is a part of these games, it will always happen. There can be things to lessen its impact like NPC guards, flagging system, etc. but its always gonna be present. And were not burning any game down, just weeding out the ppl that shouldnt have chosen that game in the first place.
Yes but you'd have to date her to find out.
When people complain after, was it the intention of the devs to have a game where high level players are running around ganking noobs at will or is there some system that's not working.
Take eve for instance. If concord showed up in a ship that couldn't hope to ever do anything to even the most basic pirate would the players be right in saying the system isn't working and needs to be changed or should they just say oh well this is how the game is and move on to something else.
It's not as cut and dry as like it or leave.
Shrug, no skin off my teeth, enjoy your ghost towns. Eve is a horrible example btw, the game is known to have the worst community in MMO's by far.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
And this sums up most of the situations. Darkfalls simply does not have any mechanics to create a proper balance. it's "police it yourself " game. pvp servers in pve themeparks are also the same. The mistake everyone makes is that many owpvp games don't have the gameplay elements in them to properly regulate players.
Unfortunatly, as shown in this thread, even if the game as said features, the moment a player gets ganked, even if the penalty for non combatants is basicaly non-existant, they over-react to it, and ragequit over nothing special.
And this also ilustrates why devs keep makign skinner box games. If you present players with a situation that might cause discomcort, no matter how minimal, they'll dramatize it.