A dull and uninspired cash grab is what comes to mind. Well I guess I'll have to move on AGAIN and hope the new round of MMO's can do it right. There's your review, support it all you like but the future looks bleak, even the fanboi's know it.
you have to look at where these games give opportunities to "be social".
Going from quest hub to quest hub and taking quests that can be done solo doesn't really allow (edit:) social opportunities.
LOTRO is horrible in this way. Not only is it horrible but the few times where you do get to group up you bang out your "one quest" then everyone drops and goes their merry way.
At least in this game, there are areas where being in a group can be of help. especially if you need to bang out some of those mini- bosses in a certain area and supplementing it with the anchors.
And as I've said, trading in this game supplies a great way to be social and to speak with the people you are interacting with.
Where Elder Scrolls Online sort of fails is having a standing group and supplying endless amount of grouping experiences.
but there are a lot of opportunities to be social. I've been very social in this game and I'm a soloer.
But since you have to head out into the world your chances of meeting another person who is also "out there" who might need assistance is very high and "for me" has granted me many grouping opportunities.
It's cool that you've found those opportunities to be social with others. However, most of those situations are based on you (or the individual) "going out of your way" to be social, and not so much the game compelling you to. You can be social during a trade transaction in any MMO that allows player-to-player trading. There's nothing inherently "social" about the process; it's the players bringing that element to it themselves. If the game has a 'Trade' function and a chat window, bang... it allows communication during a trade. There's nothing special there.
A group of people hanging out at bosses, or at Anchors, is more a mass of individuals in the same spot only because they have a common goal - to kill the baddie and get the reward. The activity doesn't require socialization or communication. You could show up, do your thing and leave without uttering a single syllable to anyone. The encounter will be no different for it. This is true of any MMO with that kind of system, be it Rift, ARR, GW2, etc... So again, that's not something to credit the game with, but more a result of whether or not a given individual feels like talking to others or not.
I know you have a long history with L2, so this will be a good way for me to illustrate what I mean. Think of a world boss in L2. Say... Orphen, just to pick one at random. If Orphen was up, and you wanted to go after her, what was required? Could you just out to Sea of Spores, track her down yourself, and start attacking, knowing other players in the area would soon be along to hack away at her as well? Nope. You had to socialize. You had to put word out to your clan/ally mates, and/or people you knew who might be interested in helping you take her down, to let them know she was up, and to ask for assistance. You had to coordinate. You had to communicate. Groups had to be formed to make sure everyone had appropriate role coverage, etc. You had to come together and work together as a unified team, or the fight could well be lost and some other, better organized and prepared group could come along and take her for themselves. There's no other way to have taken her down. L2's world boss setup not only encouraged but directly required and rewarded player communication and team work. I'm talking C3 era L2 here... you know, the good old days, not the joke that is post-GoD.
Apply a similar scenario to something like Cabrio, who's required for a quest. Perhaps you're not interested in killing it for the drops, but need it to complete a quest. You reach out to a group organized to take them on, say "Hey, can I join you guys to help take Cabrio down? I need it for a quest. I don't want any drops. I just need the kill. Can I join you?" and, unless they were paranoid or just being douchebags (which was certainly possible in L2 lol), they'd let you join and you'd get what you need, in exchange for helping them take it down to get what they need. THAT is social interaction. THAT is a game with content designed around people having to communicate and coordinate and cooperate meaningfully for a common goal.
Now, take that same situation and put it in the context of a typical modern MMO's "Public Quest" or "Public Event" type situation, like an Anchor, or Rift, or Public Quest, or FATE, or World Event.
Orphen's up and so a bunch of people are racing over there, to Sea of Spores, running toward the big marker on the map that tells them exactly where she is (because modern MMOs leave almost nothing to players to figure out or communicate for themselves anymore). You show up and there's a ton of people already there. No one's really talking. There's no communication. You probably have never even seen many of these people before and don't recognize their names. You can say "Hey guys", or try to be social. But you don't have to. And in fact, it's probably better you don't. Better to spend that time like everyone else, DPS'ing or Healing or whatever you're doing, to help take her down. Because the faster she goes down, the sooner everyone can get their reward and go back to whatever they were doing... until she spawns again (which will probably be in a couple hours, at most, because world events in MMOs are no longer rare or special; they happen like clock work on defined schedules). You could go there, do your thing, never utter a single syllable to anyone, leave when it's over, and will have not been any worse off.
In L2, without direct communication and team work, Orphen wasn't going down, and you likely weren't getting that kill for Cabrio, having to instead wait for another opportunity to arise.
Having played L2 extensively, I'm sure you recognize the clear difference between the two.
How about the Seven Seals event in L2. I don't know if you were in L2 when this happened, but Divine, in coordination with some others, basically snatched the Seven Seals up right out from under the rest of the server. Everyone typically just went for Dawn. However, as I recall, Divine, having interest in a Castle, actually coordinated to use the system as it was intended... Take Dusk and weaken an opponent whose castle they were after. How did they do it? They did Festivals of Darkness. They trained, practiced and got it to the point where they could get a high score, sufficient to push Dusk's points over the edge and win that round for them.
That is something for which communication, coordination and teamwork was actively encouraged and even required and meaningful. People got pissed at Divine (so pissed lol...) and those they worked with. But it was really their own fault.. for being complacent and just assuming Dawn would always take it. The result from that was that other Clans/Alliances began doing more Festivals and getting their scores up as well, so something like what Divine did could never be done again - or at least not so easily. So, Divine's efforts to communicate and coordinate meaningfully for a common goal lit a fire under the asses of others on the server to do the same. Awesome. Meaningful communication, coordination and, in this case, competition in action.
Something like that could never happen in a newer MMO, because developers are afraid of ever inconveniencing anyone - even if it was preventable - and so they design everything around an "everyone's a winner just for showing up" mindset.
The same goes for Questing. You can group up, but by no means are you required or even encouraged to. The game is most decidedly designed around the solo experience.
I'm responding to you, but I see others giving the Social score a higher rating for similar reasons, and I think they're being mis-placed. In most of the examples being given, the exchange is 100% on the player's own initiative, and not at all encouraged or required by any aspect of the game. Sovrath, you should be patting yourself on the back for being an outgoing, social and helpful person (which, as I recall from the L2 days, you most definitely are), not the game for "letting you, even though it wasn't necessary".
A "Social" score for a MMO - any MMO - should be based on what systems and tools are implemented in the game that actively require, encourage and facilitate players getting together and communicating where all involved actually benefit from it in some way they otherwise wouldn't. Not because it has some systems that allow people to be social if they feel like it, but by no means actively require or encourage it.
This is one of the big problems with MMOs these days, and why they've lost the soul they once had. Developers design them around being played solo, create situations that require only that enough warm bodies show up - but nothing more - and then call it "content that encourages socialization". No, it doesn't. All it encourages is people showing up at the pre-determined intervals to spam their skills, defeat the encounter, get their reward, and go back to what they were doing. Anyone who's experienced events like that (such as the L2 example I gave), will very clearly know the difference.
Modern MMOs have traded true Community and Socialization for Convenience and Solo play, and it's a damn shame.
I must say Tangent I have a huge deal of respect for you. Your posts are always so well thought out and explained that even if a person does not agree with you they have to admit you have explained yourself very well. I always find myself nodding my head as I read your post. Thank you for taking your time and writing on this site.
I agree with much of it and the score is about where I thought it would be. I am excited for what ESO can and will be. It was greatly disappointing to see so many bugs and issues come out of beta and into the launch, but Zenimax/Bethesda have been working on them, along with the exploiting and gold seller issues.
I look forward to a second look on this game in the fall or maybe winter.
Originally posted by kitarad I must say Tangent I have a huge deal of respect for you. Your posts are always so well thought out and explained that even if a person does not agree with you they have to admit you have explained yourself very well. I always find myself nodding my head as I read your post. Thank you for taking your time and writing on this site.
Thanks!
True community is something the genre hasn't seen in a long time, and it saddens me how low the bar has gotten for what people consider "a social experience" in a MMO. When someone's praising a game's Social element because they could voluntarily group up with someone... yeesh.
It's one of those things about MMOs that I'm personally really passionate - and maybe a tad opinionated - about (up there with Cash Shops and excessive hand-holding), and so when I get talking about it... I can get a bit long-winded. Not unnecessarily so, though, I think.
you have to look at where these games give opportunities to "be social".
Going from quest hub to quest hub and taking quests that can be done solo doesn't really allow (edit:) social opportunities.
LOTRO is horrible in this way. Not only is it horrible but the few times where you do get to group up you bang out your "one quest" then everyone drops and goes their merry way.
At least in this game, there are areas where being in a group can be of help. especially if you need to bang out some of those mini- bosses in a certain area and supplementing it with the anchors.
And as I've said, trading in this game supplies a great way to be social and to speak with the people you are interacting with.
Where Elder Scrolls Online sort of fails is having a standing group and supplying endless amount of grouping experiences.
but there are a lot of opportunities to be social. I've been very social in this game and I'm a soloer.
But since you have to head out into the world your chances of meeting another person who is also "out there" who might need assistance is very high and "for me" has granted me many grouping opportunities.
It's cool that you've found those opportunities to be social with others. However, most of those situations are based on you (or the individual) "going out of your way" to be social, and not so much the game facilitating it. You can be social during a trade transaction in any MMO that allows player-to-player trading. There's nothing inherently "social" about the process; it's the players bringing that element to it themselves. If the game has a 'Trade' function and a chat window, bang... it allows communication during a trade. There's nothing special there.
A group of people hanging out at bosses, or at Anchors, is more a mass of individuals in the same spot only because they have a common goal - to kill the baddie and get the reward. The activity doesn't require socialization or communication. You could show up, do your thing and leave without uttering a single syllable to anyone. The encounter will be no different for it. This is true of any MMO with that kind of system, be it Rift, ARR, GW2, etc... So again, that's not something to credit the game with, but more a result of whether or not a given individual feels like talking to others or not.
I know you have a long history with L2, so this will be a good way for me to illustrate what I mean. Think of a world boss in L2. Say... Orphen, just to pick one at random. If Orphen was up, and you wanted to go after her, what was required? Could you just out to Sea of Spores, track her down (or really, just look for her bright red icon on the map, as modern MMOs leave almost nothing to the players to figure out themselves), and start attacking, knowing other players in the area would soon be along to hack away at her as well? Nope. You had to socialize. You had to put word out to your clan/ally mates, and/or people you knew who might be interested in helping you take her down, to let them know she was up, and to ask for assistance. You had to coordinate. You had to communicate. Groups had to be formed to make sure everyone had appropriate role coverage, etc. You had to come together and work together as a unified team, or the fight could well be lost and some other, better organized and prepared group could come along and take her for themselves. There's no other way to have taken her down. L2's world boss setup not only encouraged but directly required and rewarded player communication and team work. I'm talking C3 era L2 here... you know, the good old days, not the joke that is post-GoD.
Apply a similar scenario to something like Cabrio, who's required for a quest. Perhaps you're not interested in killing it for the drops, but need it to complete a quest. You reach out to a group organized to take them on, say "Hey, can I join you guys to help take Cabrio down? I need it for a quest. I don't want any drops. I just need the kill. Can I join you?" and, unless they were paranoid or just being douchebags (which was certainly possible in L2 lol), they'd let you join and you'd get what you need, in exchange for helping them take it down to get what they need. THAT is social interaction. THAT is a game with content designed around people having to communicate and coordinate and cooperate meaningfully for a common goal.
Now, take that same situation and put it in the context of a typical modern MMO's "Public Quest" or "Public Event" type situation, like an Anchor, or Rift, or Public Quest, or FATE, or World Event.
Orphen's up and so a bunch of people are racing over there, to Sea of Spores. You show up and there's a ton of people already there. No one's really talking. There's no communication. You probably have never even seen many of these people before and don't recognize their names. You can say "Hey guys", or try to be social. But you don't have to. And in fact, it's probably better you don't. Better to spend that time like everyone else, DPS'ing or Healing or whatever you're doing, to help take her down. Because the faster she goes down, the sooner everyone can get their reward and go back to whatever they were doing... until she spawns again (which will probably be in a couple hours, at most, because world events in MMOs are no longer rare or special; they happen like clock work on defined schedules). You could go there, do your thing, never utter a single syllable to anyone, leave when it's over, and will have not been any worse off.
In L2, without direct communication and team work, Orphen wasn't going down, and you likely weren't getting that kill for Cabrio, having to instead wait for another opportunity to arise.
Having played L2 extensively, I'm sure you recognize the clear difference between the two.
How about the Seven Seals event in L2. I don't know if you were in L2 when this happened, but Divine, in coordination with some others, basically snatched the Seven Seals up right out from under the rest of the server. Everyone typically just went for Dawn. However, as I recall, Divine, having interest in a Castle, actually coordinated to use the system as it was intended... Take Dusk and weaken an opponent whose castle they were after. How did they do it? They did Festivals of Darkness. They trained, practiced and got it to the point where they could get a high score, sufficient to push Dusk's points over the edge and win that round for them.
That is something for which communication, coordination and teamwork was actively encouraged and even required and meaningful. People got pissed at Divine (so pissed lol) and those they worked with, but it was really their own fault.. for being complacent and just assuming Dawn would always take it. The result from that was that other Clans/Alliances began doing more Festivals and getting their scores up as well, so something like what Divine did could never be done again - or at least not so easily. So, Divine's efforts to communicate and coordinate meaningfully for a common goal lit a fire under the asses of others on the server to do the same. Awesome.
Something like that could never happen in a newer MMO, because developers are afraid of ever inconveniencing anyone - even if it was preventable - and so they design everything around an "everyone's a winner just for showing up" mindset.
The same goes for Questing. You can group up, but by no means are you required or even encouraged to. The game is most decidedly designed around the solo experience.
I'm responding to you, but I see others giving the Social score a higher rating for similar reasons, and I think they're being mis-placed. In most of the examples being given, the exchange is 100% on the player's own initiative, and not at all encouraged or required by any aspect of the game. Sovrath, you should be patting yourself on the back for being an outgoing, social and helpful person (which, as I recall from the L2 days, you most definitely are), not the game for "letting you, even though it wasn't necessary".
A "Social" score for a MMO - any MMO - should be based on what systems and tools are implemented in the game that actively require, encourage and facilitate players getting together and communicating where all involved actually benefit from it in some way they otherwise wouldn't. Not because it has some systems that allow people to be social if they feel like it, but by no means actively require or encourage it.
This is one of the big problems with MMOs these days, and why they've lost the soul they once had. Developers design them around being played solo, create situations that require only that enough warm bodies show up - but nothing more - and then call it "content that encourages socialization". No, it doesn't. They're just creating content that requires a lot of people to show up and spam the appropriate skills.. and then saying, "look! Look how this event brings all these people together! These events encourage players to be social!". No, they don't. Anyone who's experienced events like that (such as the L2 example I gave), will very clearly know the difference.
Modern MMOs have traded true Community and Socialization for Convenience and Solo play, and it's a damn shame.
Excellent +1000
You should be in game design if you aren't already.
You should be in game design if you aren't already.
Thank you
I'm not in design in any official capacity. I have worked with a few start-up indie teams on projects. Even went to E3 a couple times to promote and "build bridges" for one some time back. Sadly none of them went anywhere and fell apart, due to clashing egos/personalities making it a toxic and unproductive situation, or just plain people losing interest and the project losing steam. They were definitely learning experiences for me, though.
That said, it's definitely something I want and intend to do, and I'm working on a project. But that's a different topic and I'd rather not derail this thread.
This is one of the big problems with MMOs these days, and why they've lost the soul they once had. Developers design them around being played solo, create situations that require only that enough warm bodies show up - but nothing more - and then call it "content that encourages socialization". No, it doesn't. All it encourages is people showing up at the pre-determined intervals to spam their skills, defeat the encounter, get their reward, and go back to what they were doing. Anyone who's experienced events like that (such as the L2 example I gave), will very clearly know the difference.
Modern MMOs have traded true Community and Socialization for Convenience and Solo play, and it's a damn shame.
Whats passing in school nowadays anyway? Isn't , we are all winners and everyone gets an above average education the theme there? Seems to be the case with reviews too.
And yes, reviews are somewhat subjective, but not entirely so.
This is one of the big problems with MMOs these days, and why they've lost the soul they once had. Developers design them around being played solo, create situations that require only that enough warm bodies show up - but nothing more - and then call it "content that encourages socialization". No, it doesn't. All it encourages is people showing up at the pre-determined intervals to spam their skills, defeat the encounter, get their reward, and go back to what they were doing. Anyone who's experienced events like that (such as the L2 example I gave), will very clearly know the difference.
Modern MMOs have traded true Community and Socialization for Convenience and Solo play, and it's a damn shame.
This is incredibly well said. Thank you.
Thus is the current state of MMO's brought to you by publishers of content for consoles and FPS made into MMOs.
This is an average review. Most reviews are between 7-8/10. Give the guy a break, it was honest and fair in my opinion. If anything many sites are reviewing it below average because of the fear of the hate-machine.
This game has a huge disparity in scores across the web. Some people love, some hate it. Take it with a grain of salt, there is no "true score", it either has what you are looking for or not and comes down to preferences. That being said, I would like to see a review maybe 3 months from now to see what they have improved and added before the powerlevelers give up on this game completely...
Now Playing: Bless / Summoners War Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile
This is one of the big problems with MMOs these days, and why they've lost the soul they once had. Developers design them around being played solo, create situations that require only that enough warm bodies show up - but nothing more - and then call it "content that encourages socialization". No, it doesn't. All it encourages is people showing up at the pre-determined intervals to spam their skills, defeat the encounter, get their reward, and go back to what they were doing. Anyone who's experienced events like that (such as the L2 example I gave), will very clearly know the difference.
Modern MMOs have traded true Community and Socialization for Convenience and Solo play, and it's a damn shame.
This is incredibly well said. Thank you.
Thus is the current state of MMO's brought to you by publishers of content for consoles and FPS made into MMOs.
I prefer a lot of Solo content and a main storyline that requires no help from others, but I want to be able to jump into group content whenever I feel, PVE or PVP both. Community is what you make it, if you want to find a guild that is social and does a lot of group activities, I have found that in most MMOs that is available to you, you just have to go out and socialize.
Now Playing: Bless / Summoners War Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile
When you compare it to earlier reviews 7.9 seems fair. They generally give out way too high scores.
Personally I would give ESO a 5 or a 6.
Your point is valid, appreciate this information. Pretty much agree with all of this.
You know friend before this review i wrote here 5/10 and i get temprorary ban. Now most of people think same of me. i think moderaotr must consider fairly before judge.
Aion 8.7 and GW2 a 9, are two scores I will never understand... GW deserved an 8 because it is just boring as all hell. Aion with its forced PvP and static world... idk man. Reviews are all of the place and I only take my own word on games now.
Now Playing: Bless / Summoners War Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile
When you compare it to earlier reviews 7.9 seems fair. They generally give out way too high scores.
Personally I would give ESO a 5 or a 6.
Yup, this pretty much says it all. MMORPG loves MMOs...Shame on them!
LOL
I would rank ESO at least on par with SWTOR, Aion, and Rift. What did any of those games do better than ESO? And GW2 never deserved it's 9.3 the review got caught up in the hype just ESO's review got knocked points for all the hate going around.
When you compare it to earlier reviews 7.9 seems fair. They generally give out way too high scores.
Personally I would give ESO a 5 or a 6.
Yup, this pretty much says it all. MMORPG loves MMOs...Shame on them!
LOL
I would rank ESO at least on par with SWTOR, Aion, and Rift. What did any of those games do better than ESO? And GW2 never deserved it's 9.3 the review got caught up in the hype just ESO's review got knocked points for all the hate going around.
Oh, I agree with most of there reviews. They are just a bit we more loving than most people here.
I think the ESO review is on target. As Most of MMORPG.COM reviews. I do get hyped up for new games and Aion, GW2, FF14, and ESO are no exception.
While ESO has many problems, even some that are desinig problems, I still like it.
The review maybe a bit over the top, but just a bit. As for the haters on this site, thats par for the course here.
I'm done with this website and it's infinite scrolling comment system, can't you test your website before pushing an update? It's almost impossible to get to the comment box.
Every review seems to be more and more paid for, I mean I heard very bad things all over the internet. The price scheme was just the tip of the iceberg, the bugs, the boredom, the "going backward" (it feels really like an unfinished old game).
I definitively don't recommend this game and this review.
I prefer a lot of Solo content and a main storyline that requires no help from others, but I want to be able to jump into group content whenever I feel, PVE or PVP both. Community is what you make it, if you want to find a guild that is social and does a lot of group activities, I have found that in most MMOs that is available to you, you just have to go out and socialize.
I see this bit said a lot - about "community being about finding a good guild". Thing is, it's only partially true. And even then, it's in a very limited sense.
Guilds are not "the community" in a MMO. They're a subset of it. They're part of a greater whole. Just as individual players create the collective community in a guild... a collection of guilds, and individuals, creates the collective community of the server. And then all the servers create the collective community of the game itself.
To say "find a good guild and that's your community" is to limit the potential of what it actually can be, and has been in earlier MMOs where such a thing was valued. Community isn't valued anymore because, let's face it, MMOs are no longer designed with community in mind. They're designed around the individual solo experience... except for the very end, when they suddenly become about grouping up. At that point, it's still a group of people ultimately only out for their own benefit, with everyone else just there to help them get what they want. Of course there are exceptions, but that's a credit to individuals maintaining that community-friendly attitude of "striving for something greater than myself".
I remember so many times in Lineage 2 and in FFXI, where I was in a xp party. In FFXI, when people were getting to where they'd have to log off or disband the group, they'd often do two things:
1) If they were leaving the group, they'd first attempt to find someone else to replace them, so the rest of the group could continue going. They wouldn't leave until that person arrived, unless they tried and there just was no one avail (which usually wasn't the case). Very seldom did someone just drop and leave without having a replacement - because that would be inconsiderate to the rest of the group they'd just spent possibly 2+ hours with.
And that action mattered - not just then, but beyond that group. If that person had just said "well, I'm out, see ya" and left without warning or trying to replace themselves, they were remembered as "someone to think twice about inviting because they tend to ditch the group without notice". If they took the time to find a replacement and were generally a decent person, they were remembered as "someone with a good attitude, who's not likely to ditch a party when they've gotten their level".
2) If the group was disbanding soon, a common question was "What's everyone's TNL?". Basically, "how much xp do you need until you level up?". As long as it wasn't some extreme amount, the group would stay together and get that person their level... even a buffer if things were going smoothly.
3) If someone died and de-leveled (since you'd lose xp), the group would hang around and get them their level back, plus a buffer if no one absolutely had to log out right that moment.
Can you imagine that happening now? People lose their shit, drop party or start berating if someone dying delays their "progression" by even a few minutes. Could you imagine even a single player - nevermind an entire group - voluntarily saying "Okay, we're gonna stick around for another 15-20 minutes and get them their level back, as well as a buffer. Then we'll disband".. and everyone agreeing with them? Something like that happening these days would be a freaking anomaly. People would look at you like you had a third eye. Yet it was commonplace back then. Because the games were different, the players were different, the attitudes were different. It was more about "We", less about "Me".
In those examples, and so many others, people proved time and again (in FFXI, L2, in early AC2 and myriad other 1st-3rd gen MMOs) that they put others before themselves as much as they could. They were concerned about the greater good of all involved, not just "what's in it for me?".
People could find themselves invited, sight-unseen to a group, or immediately denied an invitation, entirely due to the reputation they'd earned through their behavior toward other players. Attitude, personality, reputation... all that mattered. And that's a *huge* part of what built community in those earlier MMOs.
In L2 and FFXI both (and in others from that time; I'm just most familiar with those two ) people were known, individually, by name... by just about everyone. Among thousands of players on a given server, these people stood out. Even people who'd never met the person face-to-face knew who they were. Because, just like in real life communities, some people will tend to stand-out and become known by everyone. For better or worse.
Was everyone like that? Of course not. There were people who were uncooperative, or carried on like douchebags in those games... They were the minority, though. Why? Easy. Because in a strongly developed, true game community, where anonymity is highly limited, and accountability matters, problem players tend to weed themselves out. I knew someone personally who got themselves into that situation. They were a douchebag to people, and it caught up with them. They ended up having to move to a different server where no one knew them, just to get a fresh start and continue making progress.
Those are just some of what true community in a MMO has been, can be.. and I'd argue.. should be.
Sadly, all that's been undermined by the invasion of "modern MMO design standards",which are largely overly automated, anti-social, anti-group, anti-accountability, anti-cooperation and anti-communication.
The solo-focused, "me-centric" design of newer MMOs has completely eroded any hope of a true MMO community ever forming. Developers' favoring of anonymity over accountability has given people a green light to carry on like douchebags without repercussion.... and they do. The ability to be automatically grouped up and teleported to a dungeon with a bunch of people you've never met, and likely never will again, without any effort on your part, has removed the need for people to even know how to communicate effectively.
And you don't even have to take my word for it... Just look at how negatively many people react to the very idea of having to reach out and speak to others to organize something. No no... they'd rather stand around in a hub city somewhere and queue up.. Let the game do all that annoying social, organization stuff. They'd rather stare at the ground and wait for the "Dungeon Ready" dialog to pop up.
In modern MMOs, there are glimmers of what a good MMO community can be, and once was. They are a far cry from acheivingit though. Between the design of the games themselves, and the prevalent anti-social, "me me me" mentality of their players... It just won't happen on any significant scale. Not until some serious changes come around to the genre and developers start moving it back in that direction again.
So, in the end, it's actually kind of true that Guilds are probably the closest thing you'll get to a community in MMOs... only because that's the best it could possibly be at this point. If the limits of what one considers a MMO community is "my guild", then all I can say is... you missed out.
You really shouldn't finish a review of an mmo untill you reach it.
I wuld say how can u do rewiew when game is going to evolve over a time.. whit a new futures and stuff. So its really no diffrentce if u go to 50 or not.
Comments
It's cool that you've found those opportunities to be social with others. However, most of those situations are based on you (or the individual) "going out of your way" to be social, and not so much the game compelling you to. You can be social during a trade transaction in any MMO that allows player-to-player trading. There's nothing inherently "social" about the process; it's the players bringing that element to it themselves. If the game has a 'Trade' function and a chat window, bang... it allows communication during a trade. There's nothing special there.
A group of people hanging out at bosses, or at Anchors, is more a mass of individuals in the same spot only because they have a common goal - to kill the baddie and get the reward. The activity doesn't require socialization or communication. You could show up, do your thing and leave without uttering a single syllable to anyone. The encounter will be no different for it. This is true of any MMO with that kind of system, be it Rift, ARR, GW2, etc... So again, that's not something to credit the game with, but more a result of whether or not a given individual feels like talking to others or not.
I know you have a long history with L2, so this will be a good way for me to illustrate what I mean. Think of a world boss in L2. Say... Orphen, just to pick one at random. If Orphen was up, and you wanted to go after her, what was required? Could you just out to Sea of Spores, track her down yourself, and start attacking, knowing other players in the area would soon be along to hack away at her as well? Nope. You had to socialize. You had to put word out to your clan/ally mates, and/or people you knew who might be interested in helping you take her down, to let them know she was up, and to ask for assistance. You had to coordinate. You had to communicate. Groups had to be formed to make sure everyone had appropriate role coverage, etc. You had to come together and work together as a unified team, or the fight could well be lost and some other, better organized and prepared group could come along and take her for themselves. There's no other way to have taken her down. L2's world boss setup not only encouraged but directly required and rewarded player communication and team work. I'm talking C3 era L2 here... you know, the good old days, not the joke that is post-GoD.
Apply a similar scenario to something like Cabrio, who's required for a quest. Perhaps you're not interested in killing it for the drops, but need it to complete a quest. You reach out to a group organized to take them on, say "Hey, can I join you guys to help take Cabrio down? I need it for a quest. I don't want any drops. I just need the kill. Can I join you?" and, unless they were paranoid or just being douchebags (which was certainly possible in L2 lol), they'd let you join and you'd get what you need, in exchange for helping them take it down to get what they need. THAT is social interaction. THAT is a game with content designed around people having to communicate and coordinate and cooperate meaningfully for a common goal.
Now, take that same situation and put it in the context of a typical modern MMO's "Public Quest" or "Public Event" type situation, like an Anchor, or Rift, or Public Quest, or FATE, or World Event.
Orphen's up and so a bunch of people are racing over there, to Sea of Spores, running toward the big marker on the map that tells them exactly where she is (because modern MMOs leave almost nothing to players to figure out or communicate for themselves anymore). You show up and there's a ton of people already there. No one's really talking. There's no communication. You probably have never even seen many of these people before and don't recognize their names. You can say "Hey guys", or try to be social. But you don't have to. And in fact, it's probably better you don't. Better to spend that time like everyone else, DPS'ing or Healing or whatever you're doing, to help take her down. Because the faster she goes down, the sooner everyone can get their reward and go back to whatever they were doing... until she spawns again (which will probably be in a couple hours, at most, because world events in MMOs are no longer rare or special; they happen like clock work on defined schedules). You could go there, do your thing, never utter a single syllable to anyone, leave when it's over, and will have not been any worse off.
In L2, without direct communication and team work, Orphen wasn't going down, and you likely weren't getting that kill for Cabrio, having to instead wait for another opportunity to arise.
Having played L2 extensively, I'm sure you recognize the clear difference between the two.
How about the Seven Seals event in L2. I don't know if you were in L2 when this happened, but Divine, in coordination with some others, basically snatched the Seven Seals up right out from under the rest of the server. Everyone typically just went for Dawn. However, as I recall, Divine, having interest in a Castle, actually coordinated to use the system as it was intended... Take Dusk and weaken an opponent whose castle they were after. How did they do it? They did Festivals of Darkness. They trained, practiced and got it to the point where they could get a high score, sufficient to push Dusk's points over the edge and win that round for them.
That is something for which communication, coordination and teamwork was actively encouraged and even required and meaningful. People got pissed at Divine (so pissed lol...) and those they worked with. But it was really their own fault.. for being complacent and just assuming Dawn would always take it. The result from that was that other Clans/Alliances began doing more Festivals and getting their scores up as well, so something like what Divine did could never be done again - or at least not so easily. So, Divine's efforts to communicate and coordinate meaningfully for a common goal lit a fire under the asses of others on the server to do the same. Awesome. Meaningful communication, coordination and, in this case, competition in action.
Something like that could never happen in a newer MMO, because developers are afraid of ever inconveniencing anyone - even if it was preventable - and so they design everything around an "everyone's a winner just for showing up" mindset.
The same goes for Questing. You can group up, but by no means are you required or even encouraged to. The game is most decidedly designed around the solo experience.I'm responding to you, but I see others giving the Social score a higher rating for similar reasons, and I think they're being mis-placed. In most of the examples being given, the exchange is 100% on the player's own initiative, and not at all encouraged or required by any aspect of the game. Sovrath, you should be patting yourself on the back for being an outgoing, social and helpful person (which, as I recall from the L2 days, you most definitely are), not the game for "letting you, even though it wasn't necessary".
A "Social" score for a MMO - any MMO - should be based on what systems and tools are implemented in the game that actively require, encourage and facilitate players getting together and communicating where all involved actually benefit from it in some way they otherwise wouldn't. Not because it has some systems that allow people to be social if they feel like it, but by no means actively require or encourage it.
This is one of the big problems with MMOs these days, and why they've lost the soul they once had. Developers design them around being played solo, create situations that require only that enough warm bodies show up - but nothing more - and then call it "content that encourages socialization". No, it doesn't. All it encourages is people showing up at the pre-determined intervals to spam their skills, defeat the encounter, get their reward, and go back to what they were doing. Anyone who's experienced events like that (such as the L2 example I gave), will very clearly know the difference.
Modern MMOs have traded true Community and Socialization for Convenience and Solo play, and it's a damn shame.
Nice review.
I agree with much of it and the score is about where I thought it would be. I am excited for what ESO can and will be. It was greatly disappointing to see so many bugs and issues come out of beta and into the launch, but Zenimax/Bethesda have been working on them, along with the exploiting and gold seller issues.
I look forward to a second look on this game in the fall or maybe winter.
Thanks!
True community is something the genre hasn't seen in a long time, and it saddens me how low the bar has gotten for what people consider "a social experience" in a MMO. When someone's praising a game's Social element because they could voluntarily group up with someone... yeesh.
It's one of those things about MMOs that I'm personally really passionate - and maybe a tad opinionated
- about (up there with Cash Shops and excessive hand-holding), and so when I get talking about it... I can get a bit long-winded. Not unnecessarily so, though, I think.
Excellent +1000
You should be in game design if you aren't already.
Thank you
I'm not in design in any official capacity. I have worked with a few start-up indie teams on projects. Even went to E3 a couple times to promote and "build bridges" for one some time back. Sadly none of them went anywhere and fell apart, due to clashing egos/personalities making it a toxic and unproductive situation, or just plain people losing interest and the project losing steam. They were definitely learning experiences for me, though.
That said, it's definitely something I want and intend to do, and I'm working on a project. But that's a different topic and I'd rather not derail this thread.This is incredibly well said. Thank you.
AESTHETICS – 8
INNOVATION - 6
POLISH - 7
LONGEVITY - 6
SOCIAL - 4
VALUE - 7
My take is its a 63%
Whats passing in school nowadays anyway? Isn't , we are all winners and everyone gets an above average education the theme there? Seems to be the case with reviews too.
And yes, reviews are somewhat subjective, but not entirely so.
Thus is the current state of MMO's brought to you by publishers of content for consoles and FPS made into MMOs.
This is an average review. Most reviews are between 7-8/10. Give the guy a break, it was honest and fair in my opinion. If anything many sites are reviewing it below average because of the fear of the hate-machine.
This game has a huge disparity in scores across the web. Some people love, some hate it. Take it with a grain of salt, there is no "true score", it either has what you are looking for or not and comes down to preferences. That being said, I would like to see a review maybe 3 months from now to see what they have improved and added before the powerlevelers give up on this game completely...
Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile
I prefer a lot of Solo content and a main storyline that requires no help from others, but I want to be able to jump into group content whenever I feel, PVE or PVP both. Community is what you make it, if you want to find a guild that is social and does a lot of group activities, I have found that in most MMOs that is available to you, you just have to go out and socialize.
Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile
Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile
Yup, this pretty much says it all. MMORPG loves MMOs...Shame on them!
LOL
I would rank ESO at least on par with SWTOR, Aion, and Rift. What did any of those games do better than ESO? And GW2 never deserved it's 9.3 the review got caught up in the hype just ESO's review got knocked points for all the hate going around.
Oh, I agree with most of there reviews. They are just a bit we more loving than most people here.
I think the ESO review is on target. As Most of MMORPG.COM reviews. I do get hyped up for new games and Aion, GW2, FF14, and ESO are no exception.
While ESO has many problems, even some that are desinig problems, I still like it.
The review maybe a bit over the top, but just a bit. As for the haters on this site, thats par for the course here.
I'm done with this website and it's infinite scrolling comment system, can't you test your website before pushing an update? It's almost impossible to get to the comment box.
Every review seems to be more and more paid for, I mean I heard very bad things all over the internet. The price scheme was just the tip of the iceberg, the bugs, the boredom, the "going backward" (it feels really like an unfinished old game).
I definitively don't recommend this game and this review.
I see this bit said a lot - about "community being about finding a good guild". Thing is, it's only partially true. And even then, it's in a very limited sense.
Guilds are not "the community" in a MMO. They're a subset of it. They're part of a greater whole. Just as individual players create the collective community in a guild... a collection of guilds, and individuals, creates the collective community of the server. And then all the servers create the collective community of the game itself.
To say "find a good guild and that's your community" is to limit the potential of what it actually can be, and has been in earlier MMOs where such a thing was valued. Community isn't valued anymore because, let's face it, MMOs are no longer designed with community in mind. They're designed around the individual solo experience... except for the very end, when they suddenly become about grouping up. At that point, it's still a group of people ultimately only out for their own benefit, with everyone else just there to help them get what they want. Of course there are exceptions, but that's a credit to individuals maintaining that community-friendly attitude of "striving for something greater than myself".
I remember so many times in Lineage 2 and in FFXI, where I was in a xp party. In FFXI, when people were getting to where they'd have to log off or disband the group, they'd often do two things:
1) If they were leaving the group, they'd first attempt to find someone else to replace them, so the rest of the group could continue going. They wouldn't leave until that person arrived, unless they tried and there just was no one avail (which usually wasn't the case). Very seldom did someone just drop and leave without having a replacement - because that would be inconsiderate to the rest of the group they'd just spent possibly 2+ hours with.
And that action mattered - not just then, but beyond that group. If that person had just said "well, I'm out, see ya" and left without warning or trying to replace themselves, they were remembered as "someone to think twice about inviting because they tend to ditch the group without notice". If they took the time to find a replacement and were generally a decent person, they were remembered as "someone with a good attitude, who's not likely to ditch a party when they've gotten their level".
2) If the group was disbanding soon, a common question was "What's everyone's TNL?". Basically, "how much xp do you need until you level up?". As long as it wasn't some extreme amount, the group would stay together and get that person their level... even a buffer if things were going smoothly.
3) If someone died and de-leveled (since you'd lose xp), the group would hang around and get them their level back, plus a buffer if no one absolutely had to log out right that moment.
Can you imagine that happening now? People lose their shit, drop party or start berating if someone dying delays their "progression" by even a few minutes. Could you imagine even a single player - nevermind an entire group - voluntarily saying "Okay, we're gonna stick around for another 15-20 minutes and get them their level back, as well as a buffer. Then we'll disband".. and everyone agreeing with them? Something like that happening these days would be a freaking anomaly. People would look at you like you had a third eye. Yet it was commonplace back then. Because the games were different, the players were different, the attitudes were different. It was more about "We", less about "Me".
In those examples, and so many others, people proved time and again (in FFXI, L2, in early AC2 and myriad other 1st-3rd gen MMOs) that they put others before themselves as much as they could. They were concerned about the greater good of all involved, not just "what's in it for me?".
People could find themselves invited, sight-unseen to a group, or immediately denied an invitation, entirely due to the reputation they'd earned through their behavior toward other players. Attitude, personality, reputation... all that mattered. And that's a *huge* part of what built community in those earlier MMOs.
In L2 and FFXI both (and in others from that time; I'm just most familiar with those two
) people were known, individually, by name... by just about everyone. Among thousands of players on a given server, these people stood out. Even people who'd never met the person face-to-face knew who they were. Because, just like in real life communities, some people will tend to stand-out and become known by everyone. For better or worse.
Was everyone like that? Of course not. There were people who were uncooperative, or carried on like douchebags in those games... They were the minority, though. Why? Easy. Because in a strongly developed, true game community, where anonymity is highly limited, and accountability matters, problem players tend to weed themselves out. I knew someone personally who got themselves into that situation. They were a douchebag to people, and it caught up with them. They ended up having to move to a different server where no one knew them, just to get a fresh start and continue making progress.
Those are just some of what true community in a MMO has been, can be.. and I'd argue.. should be.
Sadly, all that's been undermined by the invasion of "modern MMO design standards",which are largely overly automated, anti-social, anti-group, anti-accountability, anti-cooperation and anti-communication.
The solo-focused, "me-centric" design of newer MMOs has completely eroded any hope of a true MMO community ever forming. Developers' favoring of anonymity over accountability has given people a green light to carry on like douchebags without repercussion.... and they do. The ability to be automatically grouped up and teleported to a dungeon with a bunch of people you've never met, and likely never will again, without any effort on your part, has removed the need for people to even know how to communicate effectively.
And you don't even have to take my word for it... Just look at how negatively many people react to the very idea of having to reach out and speak to others to organize something. No no... they'd rather stand around in a hub city somewhere and queue up.. Let the game do all that annoying social, organization stuff. They'd rather stare at the ground and wait for the "Dungeon Ready" dialog to pop up.
In modern MMOs, there are glimmers of what a good MMO community can be, and once was. They are a far cry from acheiving it though. Between the design of the games themselves, and the prevalent anti-social, "me me me" mentality of their players... It just won't happen on any significant scale. Not until some serious changes come around to the genre and developers start moving it back in that direction again.
So, in the end, it's actually kind of true that Guilds are probably the closest thing you'll get to a community in MMOs... only because that's the best it could possibly be at this point. If the limits of what one considers a MMO community is "my guild", then all I can say is... you missed out.
This is the best mmo i have played in years. it is skyrim online for me.
9/10 .....even with all the buggs.
i am saddened to see that so many people spend so much energy to hate on things.....
I did not reach the level 50 cap"
You really shouldn't finish a review of an mmo untill you reach it.
Bill
Great review mate.....ignore that loud minority exploding about a positive review of a game they dont play. [mod edit]
I wuld say how can u do rewiew when game is going to evolve over a time.. whit a new futures and stuff. So its really no diffrentce if u go to 50 or not.