It sounds like you're saying WoW is a hit because Blizzard already had so many fans.
Correct.
I don't think that holds water because Star Wars has been a cultural phenomenon for the past 25 years.
You have proven my point.
Blizzard fans are a drop in the bucket compared to the legions of SW fans who will buy anything with Star Wars on the label. Yet SWG never even matched EQ's numbers subscriptionwise.
There are legions of Star Wars movie fans. Roughly 200 million. There are also many fans of the Star Wars books. Roughly 25 million to 50 million. Star Wars movie fans do not automatically buy anything Star Wars. If this were true then ALL Star Wars books would be #1 on the NY Times bestseller list for months and possibly years. "Crystal Star" or whatever its name is, would have been a hit book. "I, Jedi" would have been a hit book.
And of course, IF SW movie fans did buy everything SW, then ALL SW computer games would've been hits. "Galactic Battlegrounds" anyone? How about "Jedi Powerbattles"? There are roughly 200 million SW movie fans worldwide. Yet the SW computer games have roughly 5 million to 20 million fans.
The number of Blizzard computer game fans (before WoW released) blows away the number of Star Wars computer game fans.(before SWG released) Then compare the number of Blizzard internet computer game fans vs the number of Star Wars internet computer game fans, and Blizzard completly destroys SWG... before WoW released, and before SWG released. WoW had 17 million to 50 million computer game fans waiting on WoW. SWG had roughly 5 million to 10 million SW computer game fans waiting on SWG. ALL of Blizzard's computer game fans were internet game players. NONE to extreemly few of the Star Wars computer game fans were internet game players.
Next, before SWG came out, there were only stand alone Star Wars games.
Now look at Blizzard. ALL fans of Blizzard are computer game fans. All fans of Star Wars are NOT computer game fans (they are movie fans.) ALL fans of Blizzard play over the internet - ALL Blizzard fans are NOT stand alone game fans. It was a very short skip and hop for Blizzard to get its fans to go for paying to play online. Instead of playing online for free.
==>>> SWG first had to convince SW movie fans to buy a computer, then buy a modern computer system. Then get any fans of SW games to look into playing over the internet. Then go for paying to play over the internet. That's 3-4 major things SWG had to convince Star Wars fans to do.
=>>> Every single Blizzard fan already had a computer. Every single Blizzard fan was already playing over the internet. All Blizzard needed to do was 1 thing - get some of them to go for paying to play.
Name recognition isn't eno ugh to make a game a hit. The game itself has to be good first and that's the case with WoW.
You do know SWG is a hit? So is WoW. So is EQ. So is EQ2. So you do not have a point here.
BTW, EQ peaked at roughly 420k accounts. SWG peaked at 330k accounts. Counting the fact that many EQ players had many multi-accounts vs SWG which was SCS, it can be said that SWG did indeed match EQ's numbers. Easily numbers of actual human players. And very close to number of accounts. (Very few SWG players had multi-accounts. Since SWG did not force players to have multi-accounts.) (EQ forces players to have multi-accounts. Many hated spending 30 mins trying to find a group. Then trying to find a right group [healer - tank - puller, etc...] Much easier if one has multi-accounts.)
Right now both EQ and SWG have roughly 200k accounts.
Name recignition is everything. Part of name recignition is knowing about it. SWG *&$#@ up it's name recignition. And is STILL botching its name recignition right now. Proof?
1. EQ2 played a trailor of the computer game in movie theaters.
2. MXO played a trailor of the computer game in movie theaters.
3. SWG still has not played a single trailor for the computer game in theaters!! Not when AotC came out. And not even RIGHT NOW while RotS has just come out! SWG is botching its own name recignition!
4. WoW put landmines all over the internet, ultra-aggresivly advertising "WoW" as much as possible. It ran non-stop advertising on Battlenet. Blizzard is a synonym with Battlenet. Battlenet made Blizzard and Blizzard made Battlenet. So Blizzard made $#%& sure it aggresivly advertised on Battlenet - even though WoW cannot be played on Battlenet! LOL!
The movies made Star Wars famous. Star Wars changed movie history. Did SWG aggresivly advertise in the movies? No...... no....... and no. What the (bleeeping) heck?!?!?
Both WoW and SWG did become successful because of the reasons I stated in my earlier post before this one. SWG had the name recignition, and exploded because of that. The first month of release SWG had over 100k accounts. In less than 8 months SWG reached 300k accounts. SWG was a NICE game when it released. WoW did a far better job at recignizing its own name recignition than SWG did.
WoW had the name recignition, and exploded because of that. The first year of release it made it past 1 million accounts. I have not played WoW yet (plan to a few months from now). But based on what a friend of mine told me, WoW is a NICE game.
NO mmorpg other than WoW, and SWG, have reached 300k+ accounts during their first year of release to a worldwide audiance.
Originally posted by rentantilus World of Warcraft and Guild Wars are both games that appeal to the growing majority of short attention spanned and/or casual gamers who are unaware of what their demands are creating. ...Think before you buy, people. Your dollar is your vote. If you vote for crap, they'll keep making crap. If you vote for gold, they'll give you more gold. Think.
I have bought and subscribed to AC, DAoC, CoH, and EQ2.
I have also bought GW.
I personally have no regrets for any of them.
Well, okay, maybe I wish I had some of the time I spent on some of these games back (forget the money, it's nothing). Although the time I waste here reading some of this self-styled tommyrot is even more regretable.
Oh, you know which one will most likely get my dollars when their next expansion comes out? GW.
Perhaps I'll even go out and buy extra copies for my friends just out spite.
Originally posted by rentantilus I guess what most of us are so upset about is that we (the 25 and older MMORPG crowd) are sick of the whiny little 14-18 year old crowd ruining our games just because they're more numerous and vocal.
See, your problem here is that you assume you speak for the "25 and older MMORPG crowd".
Have you polled the entire "25 and older MMORPG crowd" demographic?
I think it's safe to say you would find a decent chunk of that demographic simply does not have the time they once did to devote to MMORPGs. Families, careers, civic responsibilities, and so on demand so much of one's time making it impossible to spend hours and hours playing a MMORPG. These people are still gamers only with much less time. In fact, perhaps some hardcore players with a casual players time. But I digress... It's not uncommon, when talking to other players, to find a father or a mother who would like to have more time to play but are limited because of the time they spend with their children. Some playing at night when the kids are asleep or during the day when the kids are sleeping or off at school.
So before you go blaming the "whiny little 14-18 year old crowd" perhaps you should check yourself and take a look back at your own demographic.
maybe people like GW's and WoW b/c *GASP* they are fun?
i knew nothing of WoW when i got invited to beta, infact i didnt like the RTS games at all. but there i was 9-10 months later still playing WoW. why? because i was having fun. i cant speak for GW's because i personally didnt like it. not into mmorpg PvP that much, but a lot of people enjoy it.
my question to the elitest "smart" people in this thread is, why does it matter if lots of other people enjoy a game you dont like? if you are so mature(the 25 and older people i'd assume would be..) why does it bother you?
I have heard many of you post that WOW and GW offer nothing new, and I have to agree in many respects. A lot of people have complained that these games are not up to the standards of other massives.
But what are the standards? If you're talking about mindless level-treadmills that in other games sometimes take years to complete, then you are right. Both of these games take far less time to play and enjoy than their predecessors. There haven't been many major innovations in either of these games, but the mere fact that they don't require one to waste their entire lives in a video game make them more appealing to me. I applaud the fact that it takes much less time to level in either of these games. I applaud the fact that they are quest based and do not require quite the same tedium of their counterparts. And furthermore, I applaud the fact that they are at least slightly breaking away from the traditional MMORPG framework. I have yet to see a single person post an example of a massive that has significantly broken this mold, and I doubt I ever will. I have played basically every massive that has been released to some extent, and I have to say that none of them since UO and EQ have been innovative at all.
Why do people like GW and WOW? Because they are not as hardcore as other massives! This is a good thing because the only reason other massives take as much time and effort as they do is to make sure that their subscribers are thoroughly addicted and will retain their subscriptions for years to come. Futhermore, in comparison to nearly all other massives I have played (and thats a lot), WOW and GW are much more intense and fun. Combat in most other games is a joke, yet both of these games have somehow managed to make it more entertaining. Most people who flame these games have simply not tried them long enough (or in many cases at all) to give an adequate rating.
"my question to the elitest "smart" people in this thread is, why does it matter if lots of other people enjoy a game you dont like? if you are so mature(the 25 and older people i'd assume would be..) why does it bother you?"
Because it wastes good development companies talent. Sure it makes them a quick buck, because the stupid people in this world easily outnumber the intelligent ones (but we already knew that)... but in the end, it was an insignificant piece of shit that just preyed off the inexperience and stupidity of alot of the new gamers in the mmo genre.
The other reason we care is because we always end up being right as well, but the time and effort put into the POS game has already been wasted. And yes, we have said this before about games. And yes, the gamers said "oh but its easy and fun", but then the community dries up as everyone realizes "easy" is fun for all of a couple months. MMO's are a different class then other games, they are as previously stated meant to be played for years. They are not RTS, FPS, or any of the other types of games... they are meant to be indepth, time consuming, challenging, and that is what allows them to be TRUELY fun for YEARS, and keeps friends and communities together for YEARS.
Really, the crud their spating out now needs to be given a new genre of its own, maybe NMMORPG's N for New, but atleast it would make the differeciation and not waste the time of the more intelligent, mature gamers who know that 95% of the fun/happiness of any accomplishment is the challenge and the proportional triumph thereof. More importantly, it would put WoW, CoH, GW, and all that kind of crap in its own little category so people could start noticing its all the same, its not the true mmo experience, and it all deteriorates quickly.
I highly disagree with people who said that WoW and GW are half assed. In my eyes alot more planning and effort was taken into these titles then most of the mmo's out today. Worlds of Warcraft has been in the works since 1998. The sheer amount of content should show the effort taken. It actually sets a milestone in my eyes. Most mmo's prior to WoW only have a 1 month entertainment span. WoW has a 3 month.
GW has been openly tested for a year longer then when people expected it to already be released. Its monthly previews showed a polished game, and the release showed an even more polished game; although lacking in gameplay.
When I look at other mmo's they replaced adding the same amount of content these two games did with a level grind. That is what a game designer calls being lazy and half assed. Then they pro-long this level grind to try and keep the user around longer.
Despite that WoW and GW should obviously show that they are for the casual gamer with clear objectives that can be completed in 10 minutes to an hour; and the game rewards the player hourly were other games reward the player monthly.
Out of the upcoming mmo's I don't see any aside from maybe Auto Assault that use WoW and GW as an example. So I dont think Hardcore gamers have to worry since there are roughly 50 new mmo titles coming out this year or next year all targeting the same audience.
Its not that they were rushed in development, the developers knew what they were doing, it was just a waste of time.
Also, its not that other developers pro-longer the leveling to keep users around... its that the developers added content for gamers knowing that the audience they were targeting wanted to play a game for years and still be having fun rather than run from one to another for a couple months.
"So I dont think Hardcore gamers have to worry since there are roughly 50 new mmo titles coming out this year or next year all targeting the same audience."
Unfortunately, this is not true. Many of these games flop, most of these games are horribly designed, and most of these games are made for the gamer slightly above the WoW type gamer. There are few Hardcore gamer games, but when they come out, theyre audiences are loyal and the communities stick around for years... and even come back after years. There are maybe a handful of these coming out in the next year or 2. Some will flop because of budgeting, but we will see if there is anything decent instore soon enough. I don't think the middle of the road games achieve their appease everyone thing... I hate that they try. Yah in concept it might seem like a good idea, but in actually hardcore gamers want hardcore games and carebear gamers want carebear games... if you try and make an in the middle your not making anyone happy IMO. If you lean more to one side you make people more happy on that side, but I say you might as well just commit to one or the other.
Originally posted by rentantilus Originally posted by darquenblade You know, I get so sick of people whining about what is wrong with the latest crop of MMOs. If you miss EQ or Eve Online style gameplay so badly, PLAY THOSE GAMES! It's not like you can't play them anymore or anything.
Oh, but it is slowly becoming the case that we can't play the "good ol' games" anymore...
(Cut down the length of the quote to save space; not just focusing on this one sentence )
You know, I do see where you are coming from with your statements. Not really being on the up-and-up with games like EQ and Eve, I did not realize that they are incorporating all these features as well (well, maybe EQ, but I didn't know Eve was doing instancing and all that). I admit that that situation, for the old-school MMORPGer, is not very cool.
However, I am not afraid to admit that I am one of those guys that likes the current crop of MMOs, and that is no doubt because I am a recent addition to the genre, and these new games are what I have started with (and I'm 28, not 14 ). For those that started with the old guard, though, I do honestly see where you are coming from when you are frustrated that your loved games are changing as well.
It's just a money thing, unfortunately. WoW created a big stir in the MMO market, and now everyone else is trying to hop aboard the train as well.
If you want a traditional MMORPG that you can play casually and still be fairly competitive, that you don't have to devote hundreds of hours to accomplish anything meaningful.... play WoW.
If you want to login for 1 hour and complete 1-2 quests or perhaps own in some PvP, without being griefed, ks'd, annoyed, looted from, abused for your choice of character, abused for your race, religion, opinions, colour of armor.. go play GW.
If you want a traditional "time sink" MMORPG where you can go and Role play and spend 8 hours queueing to get a "+8 Mastery of Badguy Rapage Uber Vigour Breatplate" then go play Everquest or whatever you want.
People did.. and WoW and GW are beating the competition.. its not because everyone hates you and is immature and is out to kill "traditional" mmorpg's, its because people are playing what they enjoy; and its not the same as what you enjoy.
I think people get into WoW because its a simple too play and it runs really smooth on some low cards and the same for GW not too mention GW free too play.So at one good monthly fee you can play a good mmo+GW on the side cause its free.
Originally posted by Puoltry Well say what you will but personally i get sick and tired of HAVING to play a game for hours on end to achieve anything period.
Dunno about some of you but when i play a game online i dont play to achieve anything its not a job it not some goal of life only achievment i go for is my own personal entertainment.Hell i can play solitair for hours and hours and hours so long as i feel happy and entertained.
I cannot say for GW, but for WoW it has loooong been obvious why it would be popular, and is popular. I, along with Lord British, have been posting this info for years and years, long before WoW came out. Every "negative" thing you write about WoW is destroyed by this FACT: 1. WoW's intended target audiance is first and foremost Blizzard fans. The majority have never played a mmorpg before. 2. There are roughly 17million Blizzard fans worldwide. (Likely even more! Possibly 25 million to 50 million, because of PC Bangs. Players do not even have to buy games to play them.) 3. All WoW needed to do was get a fraction of Blizzard fans to go with paying a monthly fee to play a Blizzard game. All set. The math is tooo easy.
It sounds like you're saying WoW is a hit because Blizzard already had so many fans. I don't think that holds water because Star Wars has been a cultural phenomenon for the past 25 years. Blizzard fans are a drop in the bucket compared to the legions of SW fans who will buy anything with Star Wars on the label. Yet SWG never even matched EQ's numbers subscriptionwise. Name recognition isn't enough to make a game a hit. The game itself has to be good first and that's the case with WoW.
That would assume that "star wars fan = gamers", which is not true. While Blizzard Fans are neccesarily gamers. So this argument doesnt hold water either. Besides SWG is much more complex and therefore really had its problems in the beginning which turned off a lot of people. That doesnt mean its a bad game. It defintily was a much more challenging project then WoW - both for the developers and the community.
Not to mention most people try these game once in the beginning and already start to judge them they are always evolving in about 6 months to a years they can get better or worse.Like swg it started out ok started to suck then now its starting to grow yet again.
Originally posted by Setekh There are few Hardcore gamer games, but when they come out, theyre audiences are loyal and the communities stick around for years... and even come back after years.
For all of you whining about there not being any new hardcore gamer games, what games are you currently subscribed to? Are you supporting the ones currently on the market? If you're not, then why not?
Originally posted by Setekh "my question to the elitest "smart" people in this thread is, why does it matter if lots of other people enjoy a game you dont like? if you are so mature(the 25 and older people i'd assume would be..) why does it bother you?" Because it wastes good development companies talent. Sure it makes them a quick buck, because the stupid people in this world easily outnumber the intelligent ones (but we already knew that)... but in the end, it was an insignificant piece of shit that just preyed off the inexperience and stupidity of alot of the new gamers in the mmo genre.
Too funny. You think you know it all don't you?
In case you haven't been paying attention, there are a good number of people who have played other MMORPGs who are also playing games like GW and WoW. On top of it, they're finding these games to be much more entertaining than the traditional MMORPG.
As for it being a waste of good development talent ... that's just your opinion. Just because they're not making the game YOU want, you call it a waste. These games have done very well in sales and reviews and regardless of what you may think, that qualifies as a success.
Originally posted by Setekh More importantly, it would put WoW, CoH, GW, and all that kind of crap in its own little category so people could start noticing its all the same, its not the true mmo experience, and it all deteriorates quickly.
Last I heard, the games you call crap, WoW and CoH, are doing well. CoH has been out for well over a year and it's counterpart CoV is coming out this winter. A good number of people who have quit playing CoH will be returning for CoV. I bet the % of resubscribes for CoV are going to be higher than any other game has experienced with the release of any expansion in the past. While true it's not 'technically' a true expansion, if it gets players back into paying a monthly fee, I would say that qualifies.
Originally posted by Setekh "my question to the elitest "smart" people in this thread is, why does it matter if lots of other people enjoy a game you dont like? if you are so mature(the 25 and older people i'd assume would be..) why does it bother you?" Because it wastes good development companies talent. Sure it makes them a quick buck, because the stupid people in this world easily outnumber the intelligent ones (but we already knew that)... but in the end, it was an insignificant piece of shit that just preyed off the inexperience and stupidity of alot of the new gamers in the mmo genre.
Too funny. You think you know it all don't you?
In case you haven't been paying attention, there are a good number of people who have played other MMORPGs who are also playing games like GW and WoW. On top of it, they're finding these games to be much more entertaining than the traditional MMORPG.
As for it being a waste of good development talent ... that's just your opinion. Just because they're not making the game YOU want, you call it a waste. These games have done very well in sales and reviews and regardless of what you may think, that qualifies as a success.
Originally posted by Setekh More importantly, it would put WoW, CoH, GW, and all that kind of crap in its own little category so people could start noticing its all the same, its not the true mmo experience, and it all deteriorates quickly.
Last I heard, the games you call crap, WoW and CoH, are doing well. CoH has been out for well over a year and it's counterpart CoV is coming out this winter. A good number of people who have quit playing CoH will be returning for CoV. I bet the % of resubscribes for CoV are going to be higher than any other game has experienced with the release of any expansion in the past. While true it's not 'technically' a true expansion, if it gets players back into paying a monthly fee, I would say that qualifies.
Originally posted by BayonetRecon Originally posted by Harakiri WoW is popular because it's made by blizzard. That's it.
Brand loyalty?
It takes more than just a brand name to keep people interested in a product nowadays. Try again.
Blizzard is known for good games though, so when it was still in the making it has been pretty much hyped. You'll be amazed how much kiddies are actually out there who just follow the flow of the hypes.
I still think WoW and GW are both good games, just in their own particular way. GW might not be a 'mmorpg', but that doesn't mean it can't be fun! Nothing beats some good PVP action. In fact I disliked PVP action, while GW changed that for me.
At the moment I'm playing EVE Online, and it is the best, in depth and open ended game I have ever played. The community is awsome, and the lack of children playing it helps. WOW feels more like work by level 50, and I'd rather play HL2 thank GW, if i want simplistic play. Not to mention the kids it will draw being a free game.
Comments
Because many find them both fun to play and enjoy them.
Stop trying to over-analyze it.
Just because you may not like a certain game doesn't mean the game sucks.
BTW, EQ peaked at roughly 420k accounts. SWG peaked at 330k accounts. Counting the fact that many EQ players had many multi-accounts vs SWG which was SCS, it can be said that SWG did indeed match EQ's numbers. Easily numbers of actual human players. And very close to number of accounts. (Very few SWG players had multi-accounts. Since SWG did not force players to have multi-accounts.) (EQ forces players to have multi-accounts. Many hated spending 30 mins trying to find a group. Then trying to find a right group [healer - tank - puller, etc...] Much easier if one has multi-accounts.)
Right now both EQ and SWG have roughly 200k accounts.
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Name recignition is everything. Part of name recignition is knowing about it. SWG *&$#@ up it's name recignition. And is STILL botching its name recignition right now. Proof?
1. EQ2 played a trailor of the computer game in movie theaters.
2. MXO played a trailor of the computer game in movie theaters.
3. SWG still has not played a single trailor for the computer game in theaters!! Not when AotC came out. And not even RIGHT NOW while RotS has just come out! SWG is botching its own name recignition!
4. WoW put landmines all over the internet, ultra-aggresivly advertising "WoW" as much as possible. It ran non-stop advertising on Battlenet. Blizzard is a synonym with Battlenet. Battlenet made Blizzard and Blizzard made Battlenet. So Blizzard made $#%& sure it aggresivly advertised on Battlenet - even though WoW cannot be played on Battlenet! LOL!
The movies made Star Wars famous. Star Wars changed movie history. Did SWG aggresivly advertise in the movies? No...... no....... and no. What the (bleeeping) heck?!?!?
Both WoW and SWG did become successful because of the reasons I stated in my earlier post before this one. SWG had the name recignition, and exploded because of that. The first month of release SWG had over 100k accounts. In less than 8 months SWG reached 300k accounts. SWG was a NICE game when it released. WoW did a far better job at recignizing its own name recignition than SWG did.
WoW had the name recignition, and exploded because of that. The first year of release it made it past 1 million accounts. I have not played WoW yet (plan to a few months from now). But based on what a friend of mine told me, WoW is a NICE game.
NO mmorpg other than WoW, and SWG, have reached 300k+ accounts during their first year of release to a worldwide audiance.
-Personal Website (A Work still in progress):
http://www.geocities.com/xplororor/index.html
-AC, AC2, AO, EQ, Freelancer, SWG:
http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor
-More SWG:
http://community.webshots.com/user/captain_sica_xol
-More EQ, Dungeon Siege, *UXO*, Diablo II:Lords of Destruction:
http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor_archives01
-EverQuest II, Horizons:
http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor_eq2archives01
-EVE Online !!!
http://community.webshots.com/user/sica_xol_archives01
-DAoC
http://community.webshots.com/user/sica_xol_archives02
-Coming sooner or later... CoH, WoW, MXO, UO, GW, As3, RS
I have bought and subscribed to AC, DAoC, CoH, and EQ2.
I have also bought GW.
I personally have no regrets for any of them.
Well, okay, maybe I wish I had some of the time I spent on some of these games back (forget the money, it's nothing). Although the time I waste here reading some of this self-styled tommyrot is even more regretable.
Oh, you know which one will most likely get my dollars when their next expansion comes out? GW.
Perhaps I'll even go out and buy extra copies for my friends just out spite.
Cheers.
See, your problem here is that you assume you speak for the "25 and older MMORPG crowd".
Have you polled the entire "25 and older MMORPG crowd" demographic?
I think it's safe to say you would find a decent chunk of that demographic simply does not have the time they once did to devote to MMORPGs. Families, careers, civic responsibilities, and so on demand so much of one's time making it impossible to spend hours and hours playing a MMORPG. These people are still gamers only with much less time. In fact, perhaps some hardcore players with a casual players time. But I digress... It's not uncommon, when talking to other players, to find a father or a mother who would like to have more time to play but are limited because of the time they spend with their children. Some playing at night when the kids are asleep or during the day when the kids are sleeping or off at school.
So before you go blaming the "whiny little 14-18 year old crowd" perhaps you should check yourself and take a look back at your own demographic.
some of the ego's in this thread are amazing.
maybe people like GW's and WoW b/c *GASP* they are fun?
i knew nothing of WoW when i got invited to beta, infact i didnt like the RTS games at all. but there i was 9-10 months later still playing WoW. why? because i was having fun. i cant speak for GW's because i personally didnt like it. not into mmorpg PvP that much, but a lot of people enjoy it.
my question to the elitest "smart" people in this thread is, why does it matter if lots of other people enjoy a game you dont like? if you are so mature(the 25 and older people i'd assume would be..) why does it bother you?
I have heard many of you post that WOW and GW offer nothing new, and I have to agree in many respects. A lot of people have complained that these games are not up to the standards of other massives.
But what are the standards? If you're talking about mindless level-treadmills that in other games sometimes take years to complete, then you are right. Both of these games take far less time to play and enjoy than their predecessors. There haven't been many major innovations in either of these games, but the mere fact that they don't require one to waste their entire lives in a video game make them more appealing to me. I applaud the fact that it takes much less time to level in either of these games. I applaud the fact that they are quest based and do not require quite the same tedium of their counterparts. And furthermore, I applaud the fact that they are at least slightly breaking away from the traditional MMORPG framework. I have yet to see a single person post an example of a massive that has significantly broken this mold, and I doubt I ever will. I have played basically every massive that has been released to some extent, and I have to say that none of them since UO and EQ have been innovative at all.
Why do people like GW and WOW? Because they are not as hardcore as other massives! This is a good thing because the only reason other massives take as much time and effort as they do is to make sure that their subscribers are thoroughly addicted and will retain their subscriptions for years to come. Futhermore, in comparison to nearly all other massives I have played (and thats a lot), WOW and GW are much more intense and fun. Combat in most other games is a joke, yet both of these games have somehow managed to make it more entertaining. Most people who flame these games have simply not tried them long enough (or in many cases at all) to give an adequate rating.
"my question to the elitest "smart" people in this thread is, why does it matter if lots of other people enjoy a game you dont like? if you are so mature(the 25 and older people i'd assume would be..) why does it bother you?"
Because it wastes good development companies talent. Sure it makes them a quick buck, because the stupid people in this world easily outnumber the intelligent ones (but we already knew that)... but in the end, it was an insignificant piece of shit that just preyed off the inexperience and stupidity of alot of the new gamers in the mmo genre.
The other reason we care is because we always end up being right as well, but the time and effort put into the POS game has already been wasted. And yes, we have said this before about games. And yes, the gamers said "oh but its easy and fun", but then the community dries up as everyone realizes "easy" is fun for all of a couple months. MMO's are a different class then other games, they are as previously stated meant to be played for years. They are not RTS, FPS, or any of the other types of games... they are meant to be indepth, time consuming, challenging, and that is what allows them to be TRUELY fun for YEARS, and keeps friends and communities together for YEARS.
Really, the crud their spating out now needs to be given a new genre of its own, maybe NMMORPG's N for New, but atleast it would make the differeciation and not waste the time of the more intelligent, mature gamers who know that 95% of the fun/happiness of any accomplishment is the challenge and the proportional triumph thereof. More importantly, it would put WoW, CoH, GW, and all that kind of crap in its own little category so people could start noticing its all the same, its not the true mmo experience, and it all deteriorates quickly.
I highly disagree with people who said that WoW and GW are half assed. In my eyes alot more planning and effort was taken into these titles then most of the mmo's out today. Worlds of Warcraft has been in the works since 1998. The sheer amount of content should show the effort taken. It actually sets a milestone in my eyes. Most mmo's prior to WoW only have a 1 month entertainment span. WoW has a 3 month.
GW has been openly tested for a year longer then when people expected it to already be released. Its monthly previews showed a polished game, and the release showed an even more polished game; although lacking in gameplay.
When I look at other mmo's they replaced adding the same amount of content these two games did with a level grind. That is what a game designer calls being lazy and half assed. Then they pro-long this level grind to try and keep the user around longer.
Despite that WoW and GW should obviously show that they are for the casual gamer with clear objectives that can be completed in 10 minutes to an hour; and the game rewards the player hourly were other games reward the player monthly.
Out of the upcoming mmo's I don't see any aside from maybe Auto Assault that use WoW and GW as an example. So I dont think Hardcore gamers have to worry since there are roughly 50 new mmo titles coming out this year or next year all targeting the same audience.
Its not that they were rushed in development, the developers knew what they were doing, it was just a waste of time.
Also, its not that other developers pro-longer the leveling to keep users around... its that the developers added content for gamers knowing that the audience they were targeting wanted to play a game for years and still be having fun rather than run from one to another for a couple months.
"So I dont think Hardcore gamers have to worry since there are roughly 50 new mmo titles coming out this year or next year all targeting the same audience."
Unfortunately, this is not true. Many of these games flop, most of these games are horribly designed, and most of these games are made for the gamer slightly above the WoW type gamer. There are few Hardcore gamer games, but when they come out, theyre audiences are loyal and the communities stick around for years... and even come back after years. There are maybe a handful of these coming out in the next year or 2. Some will flop because of budgeting, but we will see if there is anything decent instore soon enough. I don't think the middle of the road games achieve their appease everyone thing... I hate that they try. Yah in concept it might seem like a good idea, but in actually hardcore gamers want hardcore games and carebear gamers want carebear games... if you try and make an in the middle your not making anyone happy IMO. If you lean more to one side you make people more happy on that side, but I say you might as well just commit to one or the other.
Oh, but it is slowly becoming the case that we can't play the "good ol' games" anymore...
(Cut down the length of the quote to save space; not just focusing on this one sentence
)
You know, I do see where you are coming from with your statements. Not really being on the up-and-up with games like EQ and Eve, I did not realize that they are incorporating all these features as well (well, maybe EQ, but I didn't know Eve was doing instancing and all that). I admit that that situation, for the old-school MMORPGer, is not very cool.
However, I am not afraid to admit that I am one of those guys that likes the current crop of MMOs, and that is no doubt because I am a recent addition to the genre, and these new games are what I have started with (and I'm 28, not 14
). For those that started with the old guard, though, I do honestly see where you are coming from when you are frustrated that your loved games are changing as well.
It's just a money thing, unfortunately. WoW created a big stir in the MMO market, and now everyone else is trying to hop aboard the train as well.
Hm..
If you want a traditional MMORPG that you can play casually and still be fairly competitive, that you don't have to devote hundreds of hours to accomplish anything meaningful.... play WoW.
If you want to login for 1 hour and complete 1-2 quests or perhaps own in some PvP, without being griefed, ks'd, annoyed, looted from, abused for your choice of character, abused for your race, religion, opinions, colour of armor.. go play GW.
If you want a traditional "time sink" MMORPG where you can go and Role play and spend 8 hours queueing to get a "+8 Mastery of Badguy Rapage Uber Vigour Breatplate" then go play Everquest or whatever you want.
People did.. and WoW and GW are beating the competition.. its not because everyone hates you and is immature and is out to kill "traditional" mmorpg's, its because people are playing what they enjoy; and its not the same as what you enjoy.
That would assume that "star wars fan = gamers", which is not true. While Blizzard Fans are neccesarily gamers. So this argument doesnt hold water either. Besides SWG is much more complex and therefore really had its problems in the beginning which turned off a lot of people. That doesnt mean its a bad game. It defintily was a much more challenging project then WoW - both for the developers and the community.
For all of you whining about there not being any new hardcore gamer games, what games are you currently subscribed to? Are you supporting the ones currently on the market? If you're not, then why not?
Too funny. You think you know it all don't you?
In case you haven't been paying attention, there are a good number of people who have played other MMORPGs who are also playing games like GW and WoW. On top of it, they're finding these games to be much more entertaining than the traditional MMORPG.
As for it being a waste of good development talent ... that's just your opinion. Just because they're not making the game YOU want, you call it a waste. These games have done very well in sales and reviews and regardless of what you may think, that qualifies as a success.
Last I heard, the games you call crap, WoW and CoH, are doing well. CoH has been out for well over a year and it's counterpart CoV is coming out this winter. A good number of people who have quit playing CoH will be returning for CoV. I bet the % of resubscribes for CoV are going to be higher than any other game has experienced with the release of any expansion in the past. While true it's not 'technically' a true expansion, if it gets players back into paying a monthly fee, I would say that qualifies.
Too funny. You think you know it all don't you?
In case you haven't been paying attention, there are a good number of people who have played other MMORPGs who are also playing games like GW and WoW. On top of it, they're finding these games to be much more entertaining than the traditional MMORPG.
As for it being a waste of good development talent ... that's just your opinion. Just because they're not making the game YOU want, you call it a waste. These games have done very well in sales and reviews and regardless of what you may think, that qualifies as a success.
Last I heard, the games you call crap, WoW and CoH, are doing well. CoH has been out for well over a year and it's counterpart CoV is coming out this winter. A good number of people who have quit playing CoH will be returning for CoV. I bet the % of resubscribes for CoV are going to be higher than any other game has experienced with the release of any expansion in the past. While true it's not 'technically' a true expansion, if it gets players back into paying a monthly fee, I would say that qualifies.
WoW is popular because it's made by blizzard. That's it.
Brand loyalty?
It takes more than just a brand name to keep people interested in a product nowadays. Try again.
guildwars is beautifull , i think quility of graphics is what did it ... at least for me , i got adicted cose of its beauty.
i dont know about WOW , but i played a lot of WC2 .. doesnt surprize me.
Guild - http://lightness.goodforum.net/
Blog - http://www.pierrecarlier.com/
Brand loyalty?
It takes more than just a brand name to keep people interested in a product nowadays. Try again.
Blizzard is known for good games though, so when it was still in the making it has been pretty much hyped. You'll be amazed how much kiddies are actually out there who just follow the flow of the hypes.
I still think WoW and GW are both good games, just in their own particular way. GW might not be a 'mmorpg', but that doesn't mean it can't be fun! Nothing beats some good PVP action. In fact I disliked PVP action, while GW changed that for me.
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Which FF Character Are You?
At the moment I'm playing EVE Online, and it is the best, in depth and open ended game I have ever played. The community is awsome, and the lack of children playing it helps. WOW feels more like work by level 50, and I'd rather play HL2 thank GW, if i want simplistic play. Not to mention the kids it will draw being a free game.
i dont want to insalt its sort of my signatur
no efense plzz