'The grindy nature of MMO,s

Lord.Bachus

No matter how you look uppon MMOs they are grindy by nature, and sooner or later will feel repetitive, wether its doing quests, doing dungeons, chainkilling mobs, killing other players, taking keeps, doing PvP, gathering materials, or whatever action...  Repeating stuff will feel grindy...

 

Now developers try everything to hide the grind behind stories and attractive combat, or adding lots of different things to do, or allowing people to change their builds on the fly. But one needs to admit we are now are at a point where most experienced MMO players can detect the systems behind the game, and realize the grind that comes with them.

 

And then there are two kinds of experienced players, the players that can accept the fact of the grindy nature, or just refuse to see it.  And then there is (probably the majorrity of players on this wwbsite) that cant stand the grind no more and are somehow hoping to find a non grindy MMO. 

 

Will the MMO genre ever be released of the curse of feeling grindy?  Or will most people at some moment in their MMO career find out the truth and leave the genre behind?

 

personally i cant see MMOs being developed that are not grindy, as in the end even the most sandboxy MMOs somehow will turn into a grind.

Loktofeit

Grind is the player not the game. If you are 'playing' something that you consider tedious repetitive work, then that's all on you. 

It's not a sandbox thing or themepark thing. 

 

Incomparable

Having a grind is a phase that becomes an achievement. However, when the achievement feels painful its detrimental to the aspect of gaming and having fun.

At the same time a game without a grind is more of an e-sport such as an FPS game or a MOBA.

I do not like terrible grinds like lineage II or worse, but even games moderately better feel like a grind when there are alts that i want to try and there is no rewarding synergy for alting and i am expected to do the same grind for pvp to get gear.

For example in swtor to get the top ppv gear it took me several months of basically only playing swtor. By the time i reached almost completing my top gear they reset the gear and it was not even an expansion.

I would say synergy for alting is needed for pvp and even for raids. The goal is to have access to content and not be met by annoying barriers and too much down time.

Lord.Bachus

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Grind is the player not the game. If you are 'playing' something that you consider tedious repetitive work, then that's all on you. 

It's not a sandbox thing or themepark thing. 

 

No its not, but a good sandbox game should be less predictable then most themeparks, and so feel less frindy to many..  Its a better way of disguising the grindy nature..

Lord.Bachus

Originally posted by DMKano

You could have a MMO that has no progression and no grind, but the mass appeal might be lacking.

MMOs need mass appeal to be successful otherwise they are just Os

Masses like the feeling of "working for something over time and seeing their character grow in power"

Grind is really time invested.

And most MMOe are all about time investment.

Even withouth progression,mthere is grind...  Because to me grind comes with repetition..  As in repeating the same things over and over like :

- doing 1000 quests

-killing 1000 of the same mobtype

- doing a dungeon 100 times

- using the same moves over and over in combat

- taking the same keep for the 500th time..

aattss

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Grind is the player not the game. If you are 'playing' something that you consider tedious repetitive work, then that's all on you. 

It's not a sandbox thing or themepark thing. 

 

In pokemon, catching pokemon and using the enemy's weaknesses are the player not the game. If the player is catching pokemon and using the enemy's weaknesses then it's the player who is doing those things.

Err... no. If the player is playing a game and playing the game needs grinding, then making players grind is part of the game.

Eronakis

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Grind is the player not the game. If you are 'playing' something that you consider tedious repetitive work, then that's all on you. 

It's not a sandbox thing or themepark thing. 

 

There is a grind any type of rpg or mmorpg. There will always be a grind or not. I would partially agree that the player determines the grind or not. When you play old school rpgs you'll grind to get levels. Same principle in mmo's. The difference is, how a designer will mask that grind into interesting gameplay. That is the key. Sometimes players prefer a grind to grind in certain games. For instance, I would rather grind in EQ because I enjoyed the classes more, it was more community based and had a lot of variety. Whereas when I grind in WoW I felt like it was tedious job like work.

 

I never saw the argument of why people complain about the grind. It's inevitable. Some mmos and rpgs mask the grind better than others. /thread.

Kyleran

I revel in the grind, in fact,it is the root of most progression in mmorpgs and my only complaint is when it goes too slowly or comes to a halt.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy other activities such as PVP and sieging but at the end of the day there had always better be a reason for me to grind something, even if it's on as alt, at least if they want my business over the long term.

To those who don't want the grind, you're in the wrong genre, you want one of the other types of MMOS, mobas,arpgs,or something like that.

iixviiiix

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
 

Will the MMO genre ever be released of the curse of feeling grindy?  Or will most people at some moment in their MMO career find out the truth and leave the genre behind?

It will , not too soon though.

And people not leave the genre because they find out the truth of grind mechanic ,

they leave because MMO(RPG) wasn't MMO(RPG) anymore.

At lest not how original MMORPG (at 1997) mean .

LydarSynn

The problem with most MMOs (including the necessity of grinding) is that they are games with game mechanics. Try playing any game- cards, board games, single player RPGs etc. and they all become repetitive sooner or later. Games, their rules and their mechanics only include a limited number of potential activities because they were not meant to be played for hours on end and for many consecutive days in a row. Games were meant to have a definitive beginning and a definitive ending usually concluding when some player wins and the other players lose.

The problem with MMOs is that they have created games and marketed them as 2 things they are not. The first thing is that they are not RPGs. MUDs and MMOs original concepts were from pen and paper RPGs. A good PnP game with a competent GM (good story teller) could literally last for years being played for many hours without players feeling bored. The GM could create any number of scenarios for the players to play through. A good GM could create a world and the players could become immersed in it without the need for any visual effects at all. Obviously, there is little RP in MMOs and the GM concept would not work for tens of thousands of players.

The second thing that is missing from MMOs is that they are not worlds that are changing. The player and combat is also too much at the center of the design process. IMO, developers should first create a world with societies and their institutions, politics, economics, warfare and then have the player join that world. This would create many more things for players to do and would help keep grinding to a minimum. 

 

Takoo

Grind??? Pretty much every mmo on the market can be maxed in a month.

Flyte27

To me the games today are more grindy because they remove the illusion that you are playing in another world.  As another thread pointed out there are exclamation points above NPCs heads in games.  It seems way to obvious a game mechanic and screams this is a fake world and the exclamation is here to make sure you know it!  Then you have things like GPS and real money transactions.  It becomes clear quickly that the game is trying to milk you of money more then trying to provide you with some escapism to relax for a little while.  I generally can't play games where the game mechanics are so obvious.  Even EQ got to me a lot at times with the grind to level up.  It became obvious at times it was just a time sink to keep you playing.  I don't mind time sinks, but time sinks to milk you of more money I don't like.  I would rather the developers focus on making a world more engaging, challenging, and entertaining.  In EQ the best part was probably all the things the community did because it wasn't money driven.  Things like giving taxi rides (teleports), selling/giving away buffs, passing down old weapons to new players, forming large groups of players in certain areas to trade with eachother, playing around with different illusion spells to make giant gnomes and things of that nature.

Ludwik

There are MMOs out there that are not grindy. They're called MOBAs and their the fastest growing genre in all of gaming.

Dota2's 'The International 4' is going to have a prize pool of $6,000,000 and League of Legends' grand tourney is going to be hosted in a stadium. The populations of these games literally grow by the millions every year.

Once you play a MOBA, you can never go back to dull and stagnant MMO PvP.

Loktofeit

Originally posted by Kyleran
I revel in the grind, in fact,it is the root of most progression in mmorpgs and my only complaint is when it goes too slowly or comes to a halt.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy other activities such as PVP and sieging but at the end of the day there had always better be a reason for me to grind something, even if it's on as alt, at least if they want my business over the long term.

To those who don't want the grind, you're in the wrong genre, you want one of the other types of MMOS, mobas,arpgs,or something like that.

Are you enjoying the activity? If so, is it really a grind to you? "Grind' is a relative term. Are you using the term to simply refer to repeating a task? If so, then, yes, I can see how every game that was ever created with any system of advancement is a grind, but that's a really odd use of the term. 

 

Loke666

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Grind is the player not the game. If you are 'playing' something that you consider tedious repetitive work, then that's all on you. 

It's not a sandbox thing or themepark thing. 

I agree but there are things the devs can do that would make things easier for us.

Mixing different type of content instead of questing to max level, do dungeons for gear and then raid would lessen the grind a lot.

A good stealth mechanics like the one in thief would add some variation, mixing in DEs with quests helps as well, more exploration, get the pre max level dungeons back to what they were in EQ (actually useful).

I also think that MMOs have way too many levels which means that all gear you get before max level really is pointless. If the game had 20 levels but just as long time to reach it as 60 or 80 (or whatever) you actually had a point in obtaining good gear instead of something you get one day and have to replace the next day (or worse).

Having a 100 levels is no more fun than 20, what matters is the time to get too max and too many levels just split up the population besides making low gear and lower level crafting pointless. And since many of the current MMOs cut down the number of skills you use the need for loads of levels so you get a new skill at every level is no longer valid anyways.

Of course you could just skip the levels altogether but some people seems to like them (I don't care, I would prefer if you could just buy upgrades for XP whenever you had enough points and wanted instead).

Adding more sandbox things (like housing, player owned farms for crafting mats, breeding mounts and similar, guild owned mines and castles and so on also would help.

The more choices you have the less is the chance that you feel like you must grind.

UsualSuspect

I think the feeling of grind comes from the lack of freedom. Looking back at my time in original EverQuest, I never felt like I was grinding, even though in current terms that's exactly what I was doing. I didn't feel that grind because in the back of my mind I knew I didn't need to be there, I could go and do something else whenever I got bored. I once camped a single NPC for about 28 hours over five days and never felt like it was a grind. I was killing the respawns over and over again, waiting for the NPC to appear, but I was doing it for a reason and I could have moved on and done something completely different if I'd wanted to.

That sense of freedom is important. Modern MMO's feel like a grind because there is no freedom, you do what you've been told to do, you can't go anywhere else, do any other quests, because you have to advance and complete what you're doing. So it feels like a grind because you have no other options, you're forced into this repetitive action.

Loke666

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Kyleran
I revel in the grind, in fact,it is the root of most progression in mmorpgs and my only complaint is when it goes too slowly or comes to a halt.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy other activities such as PVP and sieging but at the end of the day there had always better be a reason for me to grind something, even if it's on as alt, at least if they want my business over the long term.

To those who don't want the grind, you're in the wrong genre, you want one of the other types of MMOS, mobas,arpgs,or something like that.

Are you enjoying the activity? If so, is it really a grind to you? "Grind' is a relative term. Are you using the term to simply refer to repeating a task? If so, then, yes, I can see how every game that was ever created with any system of advancement is a grind, but that's a really odd use of the term. 

Agreed. If something is fun it is no grind. Grind is when you feel forced to do those boring quests or kill another 100 easy drakes so you get another level closer to endgame.

Utinni

I miss traditional tradeskill/killing grinds. Quest grinding is tedious for me because of the amount of attention you have to give. I'd take killing 10,000 mobs in the same spot over doing 500 exclamation mark quests any day.

Gadareth

Problem isnt so much the grind the problem is ultimately the reward for the grind if at the end of a long drawn our process you got something that you felt was worth the time commitment then the grind part is acceptable.

 

Classic examples of this mechanic was used in EQ the FBSS, Ghoulbane, Soulfire, fishbone earring etc all these had massive time sinks but the item you got was considered worthwhile and lasted you for ages.

In a modern MMORPG your items gathered could be replaced within minutes of getting them or such as ESO were basically just decon mats. You blink and level so leveling itself isn't much of a reward so ultimately if the rewards have no meaning then all you notice is the grind.

 

deniter

Originally posted by Utinni
I miss traditional tradeskill/killing grinds. Quest grinding is tedious for me because of the amount of attention you have to give. I'd take killing 10,000 mobs in the same spot over doing 500 exclamation mark quests any day.

Agreed.

I spent 2 weeks 8 hours a day in WoW for mining thorium in Burning Steppes to get mats for a Flawless Arcanite Rifle, and i loved every minute of it.

I spent a whole month 8 hours a day in WoW for doing one single repetitive quest to get Winterspring Frostsaber mount.

But i can't stomach to level up in MoP for even 2 hours because of that god awful quest grind.

Utinni

Originally posted by deniter

Originally posted by Utinni
I miss traditional tradeskill/killing grinds. Quest grinding is tedious for me because of the amount of attention you have to give. I'd take killing 10,000 mobs in the same spot over doing 500 exclamation mark quests any day.

Agreed.

I spent 2 weeks 8 hours a day in WoW for mining thorium in Burning Steppes to get mats for a Flawless Arcanite Rifle, and i loved every minute of it.

I spent a whole month 8 hours a day in WoW for doing one single repetitive quest to get Winterspring Frostsaber mount.

But i can't stomach to level up in MoP for even 2 hours because of that god awful quest grind.

Yea I friends drag me back in to that, I just pre-ordered WoD for the instant-90. I've got an 89 warrior with full rested exp and I couldn't even stand that small stretch.

Bladestrom

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Grind is the player not the game. If you are 'playing' something that you consider tedious repetitive work, then that's all on you. 

It's not a sandbox thing or themepark thing. 

 

No its not, but a good sandbox game should be less predictable then most themeparks, and so feel less frindy to many..  Its a better way of disguising the grindy nature..

Agree with Lok, if you describe something as a grind or something that needs hidden then you are using a negative term based on personal taste.  I saw the dailies in WOW Mop as a grind, I did not see the rep grinds that involved killing mobs for rep a grind and it certainly wasn't hidden (far too short scale in late wow imo).  All personal taste, however Mmorgs have killing mobs at the heart of everything that it is, so if you struggle with that, then you will struggle with the genre and should honestly ask yourself if you have moved on/never really liked the genre.

Somebody absolutely hit the nail on the head re modern wow, you can no longer have a 6 month + rep grind, because the gear falls out of date by the time you get it - fundamentally broken actually lol.

Kyleran

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Kyleran
I revel in the grind, in fact,it is the root of most progression in mmorpgs and my only complaint is when it goes too slowly or comes to a halt.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy other activities such as PVP and sieging but at the end of the day there had always better be a reason for me to grind something, even if it's on as alt, at least if they want my business over the long term.

To those who don't want the grind, you're in the wrong genre, you want one of the other types of MMOS, mobas,arpgs,or something like that.

Are you enjoying the activity? If so, is it really a grind to you? "Grind' is a relative term. Are you using the term to simply refer to repeating a task? If so, then, yes, I can see how every game that was ever created with any system of advancement is a grind, but that's a really odd use of the term. 

Agreed. If something is fun it is no grind. Grind is when you feel forced to do those boring quests or kill another 100 easy drakes so you get another level closer to endgame.

Well it's true, I find a certain level of grind in MMORPG's to acceptable and even expected, and it is fun for me to do it.

But it's a tricky balance, when recently playing ESO, my real goal in the game was to get to the end game PVP in Cyrodil to game with my friends, but when I realized I would have to go through a crushing quest grind to get there (even though the quests were good) it pretty much took away my interest, as my goals were further out than I was willing to accept.

 

aattss

One thing that makes the grind more repetitive is that each battle basically follows the same pattern. Look up the trinity. I was reading about EQ Next, and they talked about using better AI and stuff to make mobs more unpredictable, thus forcing the players to adapt to different situations and fill a greater variety of roles. I'm not saying that EQ Next is going to work because I haven't played it and it's still in beta.

Bladestrom

Originally posted by aattss
One thing that makes the grind more repetitive is that each battle basically follows the same pattern. Look up the trinity. I was reading about EQ Next, and they talked about using better AI and stuff to make mobs more unpredictable, thus forcing the players to adapt to different situations and fill a greater variety of roles. I'm not saying that EQ Next is going to work because I haven't played it and it's still in beta.

There is not a problem with a grind being repetitive at all, some people love long rep grinds.  Look at WOW Mop, they tried to make rep grinds exciting with lots of quests that gave you a million different ways to grind your rep and it turned out pretty horrific and was proven to be a total failure.  They missed the point, repetitive rep grinds is a feature that some players love, but not all - but as developers they stupidly tried to turn a repetitive grind into something else - when actually they just needed to make it rewarding for those that wanted to do it, and not force players into it.  Ofc you cant do that in WOW because of the constant loot inflation - and that's the trap they have made for themselves.

aattss

Originally posted by Bladestrom

Originally posted by aattss
One thing that makes the grind more repetitive is that each battle basically follows the same pattern. Look up the trinity. I was reading about EQ Next, and they talked about using better AI and stuff to make mobs more unpredictable, thus forcing the players to adapt to different situations and fill a greater variety of roles. I'm not saying that EQ Next is going to work because I haven't played it and it's still in beta.

There is not a problem with a grind being repetitive at all, some people love long rep grinds.  Look at WOW Mop, they tried to make rep grinds exciting with lots of quests that gave you a million different ways to grind your rep and it turned out pretty horrific and was proven to be a total failure.  They missed the point, repetitive rep grinds is a feature that some players love, but not all - but as developers they stupidly tried to turn a repetitive grind into something else - when actually they just needed to make it rewarding for those that wanted to do it, and not force players into it.  Ofc you cant do that in WOW because of the constant loot inflation - and that's the trap they have made for themselves.

Some people like repetitive grinds. Some people don't like repetitive grinds. The people who don't like repetitive grinds are requesting games which suit their preferences.