Well, I guess this is how it's works. Nerf dungeons, make all hardcore players quit, make noobs happy. After 1-2 months when noobs roflstomped every single dungeon 1000th time, they will quit bitching "this game sux, there's nothing more to do, I've killed "the hardest boss" in the world for billions of times". Lose players from both side. Or, do not nerf it at all, make noobs quit forever and for good, but keep hardcore in the game. I'm pretty sure last ones will be happy if they cleared hardest bosses in-game even after 6 months. Game will lose bitchers, but will keep steady income for updates and new content from hardcore players.
Originally posted by Arthasm Well, I guess this is how it's works. Nerf dungeons, make all hardcore players quit, make noobs happy. After 1-2 months when noobs roflstomped every single dungeon 1000th time, they will quit bitching "this game sux, there's nothing more to do, I've killed "the hardest boss" in the world for billions of times". Lose players from both side. Or, do not nerf it at all, make noobs quit forever and for good, but keep hardcore in the game. I'm pretty sure last ones will be happy if they cleared hardest bosses in-game even after 6 months. Game will lose bitchers, but will keep steady income for updates and new content from hardcore players.
IF the self appointed hardcore's ego was important to the long term health of a game you might have a point, however judging by your rhetoric which I'll give you the benefit of doubt and assume it's slightly factitious. You're thinking from a purely I'm leet-sauce and they're noobs mind set, and not about what happens to this content when there aren't hundreds of people attempting to run it. As well as those stuck in those tiers at those times.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by jandrsn Bring back 'Nintendo hard'. If I ever beat Battletoads, I'm getting a tattoo to brag it up! If it's easy for the masses, what's the point other than to say you played? Where's the satisfaction in beating a six year old in chess?
You didn't beat battletoads :P? As for the rest, I don't don't play games for "satisfaction" I play them to have fun, I don't really care about "beating" anyone. Not saying they should nerf their content, but I don't really see your satisfaction as being more important than others fun. IF it's what a majority of those paying a monthly fee want, it shouldn't just be brushed aside by the developers.
Some people spend free time making model airplanes, painting them just right and all that. Some people buy the same plane model from the Franklin Mint ( or where ever) completely ready to put on display. Both are viable, neither route is better than the other. But some of us really like a challenge and the feeling of having done something that requires some degree of skill. 'Fun' and 'satisfaction' may be subjective, but they're definitely not exclusive.
What I think is this: the real problem isn't the difficulty but the Dungeon Finder tool. When anyone can queue and they're placed in a group randomly, things just don't end well.
How would I solve the problem? Personally I would remove the Dungeon Finder. But we know that's not gonna happen.
Nerfing I don't think is a good option either, because taking out the difficulty would destroy the last draw WS has for more oldschool players (Dungeon Finder along with many other negative features was enough to put me off personally, difficulty alone doesn't make for a good game).
So I guess there's no real solution to this. That being said, the Dungeon Finder should never have been implemented.
People suck. Not going to sugar coat it. Mark targets, type out what to do in chat, etc. etc. etc. People don't listen. Everyone acts as if these dungeons were just AoE grind fests. Then you have tanks and healers coming in with Assault PvP gear (literally JUST saw this happen). That's the majority. Dungeons 1-49 need to be easier, end of story. Make your Veteran modes as hard as you feel like, but I'm tired of not being able to get a competent group together for normal modes.
People won't "Get better" over time. Just won't happen. The majority want to jump in, do a 30 minute dungeon, and jump out. These people are either unable or unwilling to adapt to this sort of difficulty. They will leave this game, and there will be nothing but a small crowd of niche hardcore fans left. And if that's enough for NCSoft/Carbine/Board of Directors, then awesome. But the majority WILL move on.
Personally, I don't mind the increased difficulty (in reality, they aren't THAT hard, stay out of the tele's, kill healers first, mark enemies, wear the proper gear, etc. It's not rocket surgery), but I'm willing to bet the vast majority do mind, and won't stick with it for long. For me, it's kind of like that Demon/Dark Souls feeling. You die over and over to a boss, and then when you finally get it down, you get that "*cupcake* YEAH!" moment, and it's WAY more satisfying than just mindlessly AoEing everything down. But I also understand that I'm (and others like me) are in the vast minority.
I don't know. Just felt like ranting. Just how I see things. What do you all think?
People suck. Not going to sugar coat it. Mark targets, type out what to do in chat, etc. etc. etc. People don't listen. Everyone acts as if these dungeons were just AoE grind fests. Then you have tanks and healers coming in with Assault PvP gear (literally JUST saw this happen). That's the majority. Dungeons 1-49 need to be easier, end of story. Make your Veteran modes as hard as you feel like, but I'm tired of not being able to get a competent group together for normal modes.
People won't "Get better" over time. Just won't happen. The majority want to jump in, do a 30 minute dungeon, and jump out. These people are either unable or unwilling to adapt to this sort of difficulty. They will leave this game, and there will be nothing but a small crowd of niche hardcore fans left. And if that's enough for NCSoft/Carbine/Board of Directors, then awesome. But the majority WILL move on.
Personally, I don't mind the increased difficulty (in reality, they aren't THAT hard, stay out of the tele's, kill healers first, mark enemies, wear the proper gear, etc. It's not rocket surgery), but I'm willing to bet the vast majority do mind, and won't stick with it for long. For me, it's kind of like that Demon/Dark Souls feeling. You die over and over to a boss, and then when you finally get it down, you get that "*cupcake* YEAH!" moment, and it's WAY more satisfying than just mindlessly AoEing everything down. But I also understand that I'm (and others like me) are in the vast minority.
I don't know. Just felt like ranting. Just how I see things. What do you all think?
I might be kinda the player you are referring to. I haven't done a dungeon yet and am only level 21. I'm level 21 because I've got wife, kids and I run two businesses. I chill by playing MMOs and right now, it's Wildstar. And it really impresses me.
But I'm never going to be hardcore or even that serious, as I just don't have the time to read up, gear up, practice etc. I'm looking forward to a casual hour a day to unwind, maybe a bit more if the wife is out and the kids are in bed.
I'm never going to be brilliant, but I do enjoy the game. I guess there's a risk that when I reach level cap, everything will be too much for me and i'll give up - or, people will be moaning at me so much that I'll quit.
I really hope the game will offer me more, as I like what I see and it's refreshing, but if it is totally hardcore, especially at the end-game stage, then I don't suppose there will be any point in me playing after level 50?
Originally posted by lugal Lol! Game to hard for ya? Unable to join a guild? Nerf game as a solution. Why don't you try to fix things from your end, instead of ruining the game for others just to suit yourself.
You didn't read his post; too quick to attack. School age no doubt?
Everyone on here seems against the game being a bit more scaled to people's abilities. WoW has stuff for casuals and hardcore stuff for the top-end players, with something in between for everything else. You find your level and play in those areas.
If Carbine ONLY caters for Hardcore, then they are missing out on a huge number of paying customers, whose contributions can go towards further game development. Rather than people being selfish and wanting it just for them and their ability, why not have something for everyone?
I still hear people moan that WoW is easy, yet whilst a lot of it is, few people have completed all the raids on the highest levels, so there is still something for nearly everyone to work towards and achieve. If you have to go in at a high starting level, then many people may leave the game and where would that leave it? Another failed themepark going F2P?
Originally posted by jandrsn Bring back 'Nintendo hard'. If I ever beat Battletoads, I'm getting a tattoo to brag it up! If it's easy for the masses, what's the point other than to say you played? Where's the satisfaction in beating a six year old in chess?
You didn't beat battletoads :P? As for the rest, I don't don't play games for "satisfaction" I play them to have fun, I don't really care about "beating" anyone. Not saying they should nerf their content, but I don't really see your satisfaction as being more important than others fun. IF it's what a majority of those paying a monthly fee want, it shouldn't just be brushed aside by the developers.
Some people spend free time making model airplanes, painting them just right and all that. Some people buy the same plane model from the Franklin Mint ( or where ever) completely ready to put on display. Both are viable, neither route is better than the other. But some of us really like a challenge and the feeling of having done something that requires some degree of skill. 'Fun' and 'satisfaction' may be subjective, but they're definitely not exclusive.
You can still have your hardcore challenge whilst the more casual people can have dungeons and raids more suited to their level and available play-time. Guess what, keep more people happy, keep more money coming in, means more dev time to make you new raids.
"Nerf the content because people are idiots!!" it is along the same line as "No score keeping", wonderful thing modern people have invented : "my kid is less than average but there is one kid who is a genius but because he exists my kid is under mental pressure!! so let's stop creating tests that will allow students to learn something and study more, because it creates mental pressure for my kid!!". now this mentality is coming to games : "I am stupid and i want to stay stupid and don't wanna improve, everything should just degrade to my low level", if people are stupid they should stop playing games and go die in bush somewhere, games don't need to be nerfed.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
Originally posted by jesteralways "Nerf the content because people are idiots!!" it is along the same line as "No score keeping", wonderful thing modern people have invented : "my kid is less than average but there is one kid who is a genius but because he exists my kid is under mental pressure!! so let's stop creating tests that will allow students to learn something and study more, because it creates mental pressure for my kid!!". now this mentality is coming to games : "I am stupid and i want to stay stupid and don't wanna improve, everything should just degrade to my low level", if people are stupid they should stop playing games and go die in bush somewhere, games don't need to be nerfed.
Most if not all AI in games are dumb. When you doing PvE content your not actually taking on an opponent that has brains and will out smart you. Infact, your just picking on the dumb. It's just they have given the dumb AI more HP than me.
Most PvE combat that's real time requires little intelligence. It's more about timing.
There are enough dumbed down MMO's available. I love the challenge Wildstar has to its content. Making all normal dungeons easier will just make this game a sci-fi post cata WoW.
Nerfing and dumbing down is always a mistake. It's always the same story: The supercasual, entitled crowd are going to leave the game no matter what you do.
1.- If you dumb the game down to supereasy and hand-holding as hell, they'll go through content in their typical tunnel-vision, autistic style and then leave for the next marketing fueled shinny.
2.- If you are coherent and loyal to your principles and keep on with the game's philosophy, the supercasual crowd will start crying and demanding - like the spoiled, entitled and immature brats they are - and they'll leave eventually.
The difference is that in the first scenario, you'll alienate and lose your natural public, the ones who would be committed to the game in the long run. On the other hand, in the second scenario, some of the supercasual whiners - the ones more adult minded and morally consistent - will try to improve, to look for other players in the same situation, will create groups, sinergies and guilds to support each other, and eventually they'll succeed and in the process they'll have much more fun.
The essence of the problem stems from trying to direct your product to people that do not naturally like such products. We have crappy MMORPGs because the publishers try to target to people who don't like MMORPGs. Same because the new Simcity or Rome 2 feel so retarded and suck pineapples and bananas: Because they backstabbed their natural public and targeted to people who don't like City Simulation and Gran Strategy, respectively.
The post below, although rather rude in its form, it's essentially true. This culture of entitlement is doing a lot of damage in our society, thus creating a lot of "broken-dolls", emotionally inept adults, and frustrated people in general.
Originally posted by jesteralways "Nerf the content because people are idiots!!" it is along the same line as "No score keeping", wonderful thing modern people have invented : "my kid is less than average but there is one kid who is a genius but because he exists my kid is under mental pressure!! so let's stop creating tests that will allow students to learn something and study more, because it creates mental pressure for my kid!!". now this mentality is coming to games : "I am stupid and i want to stay stupid and don't wanna improve, everything should just degrade to my low level", if people are stupid they should stop playing games and go die in bush somewhere, games don't need to be nerfed.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
I agree with Akerbeltz .. the 2nd option is the best route. Sure those who can't stand that they don't get their own way might leave but then the rest of the PB who are grateful that the game didn't change will probably talk about it to friends.
And Word of Mouth can be one of the best marketing tools, the game goes supercasual .. great it's like every other mmo out now. It's stays to it's roots and Carbine show they have a set vision they want and intend to stick to .. that's something to look into at the minimum.
I remember when you played a mmo and did a pug and you all talked about what you were going to do, who did what, when and after was the wd or some constructive criticism and advise on next.
Though I must admit i have let the idiot who run about shouting HEALZ ME!! constantly just die to shut him the hell up.
Nerfing and dumbing down is always a mistake. It's always the same story: The supercasual, entitled crowd are going to leave the game no matter what you do.
1.- If you dumb the game down to supereasy and hand-holding as hell, they'll go through content in their typical tunnel-vision, autistic style and then leave for the next marketing fueled shinny.
2.- If you are coherent and loyal to your principles and keep on with the game's philosophy, the supercasual crowd will start crying and demanding - like the spoiled, entitled and immature brats they are - and they'll leave eventually.
The difference is that in the first scenario, you'll alienate and lose your natural public, the ones who would be committed to the game in the long run. On the other hand, in the second scenario, some of the supercasual whiners - the ones more adult minded and morally consistent - will try to improve, to look for other players in the same situation, will create groups, sinergies and guilds to support each other, and eventually they'll succeed and in the process they'll have much more fun.
The essence of the problem stems from trying to direct your product to people that do not naturally like such products. We have crappy MMORPGs because the publishers try to target to people who don't like MMORPGs. Same because the new Simcity or Rome 2 feel so retarded and suck pineapples and bananas: Because they backstabbed their natural public and targeted to people who don't like City Simulation and Gran Strategy, respectively.
The problem is that everything you have said above, just makes terrible business sense and will affect profits.
You are calling the causal players "whiners" for more or less being casual and wanting 'easier' content. Is that any less than if I were to call hardcore players 'whiners' for wanting more difficult content?
If we assume that the casual gamers make up a lot more of the population than the hardcore gamers, then you'll end up with a much smaller pool of players to play your game, and even some of those will leave due to natural wasteage.
Why do you think WoW keeps millions of subscribers? Because they cater for ALL types of players. You can have a game that people of all levels can play, happily together. And all those people can still improve and move up the ladder of difficulty.
Instead of nerfing your dungeons, how about just adding new dungeons with 'easier' content for the casuals? You never know, they might complete it, learn to play 'better' and more up towards the more difficult stuff. That's called progression and it keeps people interested.
If you start out with everthing hardcore, then where do you go from there? Mega hardcore, appealing to 0.05% of the population?
Go that route and there won't be enough subscribers to pay for any of your new content. You know, hardcore players can still be happy, surely, even if there are dungeons and content for casuals? As a casual, I want to enjoy Wildstar too.
Originally posted by Akerbeltz Nerfing and dumbing down is always a mistake. It's always the same story: The supercasual, entitled crowd are going to leave the game no matter what you do.1.- If you dumb the game down to supereasy and hand-holding as hell, they'll go through content in their typical tunnel-vision, autistic style and then leave for the next marketing fueled shinny. 2.- If you are coherent and loyal to your principles and keep on with the game's philosophy, the supercasual crowd will start crying and demanding - like the spoiled, entitled and immature brats they are - and they'll leave eventually.
Nerfing down is always a mistake?
In case 1), you have a crap ton of players who "at least" are going "through content in their typical tunnel-vision, autistic style and then leave for the next marketing fueled shinny".
In case 2), you have tiny playerbase that won't pay for your bills.
It is only a mistake if you are lacking any business(or any other) sense whatsoever. There is no point making games people do not want to play...you make the game for people, not for your own amusement.
Originally posted by lugal Lol! Game to hard for ya? Unable to join a guild? Nerf game as a solution. Why don't you try to fix things from your end, instead of ruining the game for others just to suit yourself.
I know reading is hard, but next time you post, you should REALLY give it a shot.
I wasn't complaining about the difficulty on a personal level, I was complaining about how the difficulty effects the MAJORITY OF THE PLAYER BASE. As in everyone who doesn't enjoy the increased difficulty (when compared to most other modern MMO's). I like it, but here's the thing, most others don't. And they will not stick around.
and that's good because if they don't like how hard the game is then the game is NOT for them... I'm really sick and tired of hearing how every game should be made for everyone.
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life." -------------------------------
Comments
IF the self appointed hardcore's ego was important to the long term health of a game you might have a point, however judging by your rhetoric which I'll give you the benefit of doubt and assume it's slightly factitious. You're thinking from a purely I'm leet-sauce and they're noobs mind set, and not about what happens to this content when there aren't hundreds of people attempting to run it. As well as those stuck in those tiers at those times.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You didn't beat battletoads :P? As for the rest, I don't don't play games for "satisfaction" I play them to have fun, I don't really care about "beating" anyone. Not saying they should nerf their content, but I don't really see your satisfaction as being more important than others fun. IF it's what a majority of those paying a monthly fee want, it shouldn't just be brushed aside by the developers.
Some people spend free time making model airplanes, painting them just right and all that. Some people buy the same plane model from the Franklin Mint ( or where ever) completely ready to put on display. Both are viable, neither route is better than the other. But some of us really like a challenge and the feeling of having done something that requires some degree of skill. 'Fun' and 'satisfaction' may be subjective, but they're definitely not exclusive.What I think is this: the real problem isn't the difficulty but the Dungeon Finder tool. When anyone can queue and they're placed in a group randomly, things just don't end well.
How would I solve the problem? Personally I would remove the Dungeon Finder. But we know that's not gonna happen.
Nerfing I don't think is a good option either, because taking out the difficulty would destroy the last draw WS has for more oldschool players (Dungeon Finder along with many other negative features was enough to put me off personally, difficulty alone doesn't make for a good game).
So I guess there's no real solution to this. That being said, the Dungeon Finder should never have been implemented.
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Heres the classic "its the other guys not me". They suck.. I like it hard..,but should nerf it for them. HAHA.
I LOVE the fact dungeons are hard! Just watch.. get enough of these kinds of waaaaaaa they will make the game easy
I might be kinda the player you are referring to. I haven't done a dungeon yet and am only level 21. I'm level 21 because I've got wife, kids and I run two businesses. I chill by playing MMOs and right now, it's Wildstar. And it really impresses me.
But I'm never going to be hardcore or even that serious, as I just don't have the time to read up, gear up, practice etc. I'm looking forward to a casual hour a day to unwind, maybe a bit more if the wife is out and the kids are in bed.
I'm never going to be brilliant, but I do enjoy the game. I guess there's a risk that when I reach level cap, everything will be too much for me and i'll give up - or, people will be moaning at me so much that I'll quit.
I really hope the game will offer me more, as I like what I see and it's refreshing, but if it is totally hardcore, especially at the end-game stage, then I don't suppose there will be any point in me playing after level 50?
The answer to this problem is pretty easy...
You have to accept less money to cater to the niche, or Bend your design to complement the masses.
NCsoft will never accept less profits. therefore the game will eventually become easy, its just a matter of time.
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...they will go and find another game that supports their play style better.
You are heavily ilusioning yourself if you believe you can force your customers to play the game your way.
You didn't read his post; too quick to attack. School age no doubt?
Everyone on here seems against the game being a bit more scaled to people's abilities. WoW has stuff for casuals and hardcore stuff for the top-end players, with something in between for everything else. You find your level and play in those areas.
If Carbine ONLY caters for Hardcore, then they are missing out on a huge number of paying customers, whose contributions can go towards further game development. Rather than people being selfish and wanting it just for them and their ability, why not have something for everyone?
I still hear people moan that WoW is easy, yet whilst a lot of it is, few people have completed all the raids on the highest levels, so there is still something for nearly everyone to work towards and achieve. If you have to go in at a high starting level, then many people may leave the game and where would that leave it? Another failed themepark going F2P?
You can still have your hardcore challenge whilst the more casual people can have dungeons and raids more suited to their level and available play-time. Guess what, keep more people happy, keep more money coming in, means more dev time to make you new raids.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
You learn nothing from tests...apart from learning how to do tests. Not to say, score results is entirely different matter.
If you are capable of such fallacies, you better not lecture other people and question their intelligence.
Most if not all AI in games are dumb. When you doing PvE content your not actually taking on an opponent that has brains and will out smart you. Infact, your just picking on the dumb. It's just they have given the dumb AI more HP than me.
Most PvE combat that's real time requires little intelligence. It's more about timing.
Please no.
There are enough dumbed down MMO's available. I love the challenge Wildstar has to its content. Making all normal dungeons easier will just make this game a sci-fi post cata WoW.
Nerfing and dumbing down is always a mistake. It's always the same story: The supercasual, entitled crowd are going to leave the game no matter what you do.
1.- If you dumb the game down to supereasy and hand-holding as hell, they'll go through content in their typical tunnel-vision, autistic style and then leave for the next marketing fueled shinny.
2.- If you are coherent and loyal to your principles and keep on with the game's philosophy, the supercasual crowd will start crying and demanding - like the spoiled, entitled and immature brats they are - and they'll leave eventually.
The difference is that in the first scenario, you'll alienate and lose your natural public, the ones who would be committed to the game in the long run. On the other hand, in the second scenario, some of the supercasual whiners - the ones more adult minded and morally consistent - will try to improve, to look for other players in the same situation, will create groups, sinergies and guilds to support each other, and eventually they'll succeed and in the process they'll have much more fun.
The essence of the problem stems from trying to direct your product to people that do not naturally like such products. We have crappy MMORPGs because the publishers try to target to people who don't like MMORPGs. Same because the new Simcity or Rome 2 feel so retarded and suck pineapples and bananas: Because they backstabbed their natural public and targeted to people who don't like City Simulation and Gran Strategy, respectively.
The post below, although rather rude in its form, it's essentially true. This culture of entitlement is doing a lot of damage in our society, thus creating a lot of "broken-dolls", emotionally inept adults, and frustrated people in general.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
I agree with Akerbeltz .. the 2nd option is the best route. Sure those who can't stand that they don't get their own way might leave but then the rest of the PB who are grateful that the game didn't change will probably talk about it to friends.
And Word of Mouth can be one of the best marketing tools, the game goes supercasual .. great it's like every other mmo out now. It's stays to it's roots and Carbine show they have a set vision they want and intend to stick to .. that's something to look into at the minimum.
I remember when you played a mmo and did a pug and you all talked about what you were going to do, who did what, when and after was the wd or some constructive criticism and advise on next.
Though I must admit i have let the idiot who run about shouting HEALZ ME!! constantly just die to shut him the hell up.
The problem is that everything you have said above, just makes terrible business sense and will affect profits.
You are calling the causal players "whiners" for more or less being casual and wanting 'easier' content. Is that any less than if I were to call hardcore players 'whiners' for wanting more difficult content?
If we assume that the casual gamers make up a lot more of the population than the hardcore gamers, then you'll end up with a much smaller pool of players to play your game, and even some of those will leave due to natural wasteage.
Why do you think WoW keeps millions of subscribers? Because they cater for ALL types of players. You can have a game that people of all levels can play, happily together. And all those people can still improve and move up the ladder of difficulty.
Instead of nerfing your dungeons, how about just adding new dungeons with 'easier' content for the casuals? You never know, they might complete it, learn to play 'better' and more up towards the more difficult stuff. That's called progression and it keeps people interested.
If you start out with everthing hardcore, then where do you go from there? Mega hardcore, appealing to 0.05% of the population?
Go that route and there won't be enough subscribers to pay for any of your new content. You know, hardcore players can still be happy, surely, even if there are dungeons and content for casuals? As a casual, I want to enjoy Wildstar too.
Nerfing down is always a mistake?
In case 1), you have a crap ton of players who "at least" are going "through content in their typical tunnel-vision, autistic style and then leave for the next marketing fueled shinny".
In case 2), you have tiny playerbase that won't pay for your bills.
It is only a mistake if you are lacking any business(or any other) sense whatsoever. There is no point making games people do not want to play...you make the game for people, not for your own amusement.
and that's good because if they don't like how hard the game is then the game is NOT for them... I'm really sick and tired of hearing how every game should be made for everyone.
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
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