Originally posted by Kopogero Originally posted by BruwinYou do not understand what pay to win means.
Please, enlighten me then but wait I think you'll say "pay to win" is when the player gains significant advantage against another through buying more powerful items. If that's the case I disagree with you. If the game design/endgame is based around COLLECTING and using expensive RARE items for show off or simply gaining some extra feat/achievement is considered Pay to Win in my book.
That dimishes the point of collecting in first play, thus making the experience unfun, unrewarding and pointless. Also every single item that will require ingame currency to obtain basically can be obtained easily for $ and it won't be just about obtaining items it will be about a lot of other things.
For instance I can easily bring most players I want in my guild for the right sum (which means bringing players from other guilds as well). You'll be surprised what players are willing to do for free currency.
he is right, you don't know what pay to win means and i am not a fan of wildstar either. collecting rare items or buying them in a cash shope has absolutely nothing to do with "winning".
pay to win is when you can buy the best gear with real cash (or even significant gear, but not necessarily the best), like the RMAH D3 used to have for example.
using your logic, every single item shop is pay to win, that's just dumb logic and grossly inaccurate.
he is right, you don't know what pay to win means and i am not a fan of wildstar either. collecting rare items or buying them in a cash shope has absolutely nothing to do with "winning".
pay to win is when you can buy the best gear with real cash (or even significant gear, but not necessarily the best), like the RMAH D3 used to have for example.
using your logic, every single item shop is pay to win, that's just dumb logic and grossly inaccurate.
If the game revolves around collecting things and if someone else can collect them faster or before me because he has more $ that he convert in more ingame currency then yes he is winning against me and he is also my competition since he can offer more than me to purchase things. It also diminshes my experience and purpose to play the game and gain the things I'm able to gain. It can be rares, mounts, gear, skilled players in guild, titles, achievement and so forth.
And no, not every single item shop is pay to win. Example: only one known mount, pet, pants, skill animation etc are exclusive non tradable/supporter items players can choose to buy/use. That's not winnning against me because EVERYBODY knows that the item they've bought can only be bought from the cash shop.
If the game also allows me to purchase extra storage, but that storage can't be abused to make more currency (like in Path of Exile) then I would also not consider it pay to win. In Path of Exile there are certain recipes designed to benefit those who got far more storage to "match" and convert for currency.
I would suggess/appreciate if any other poster here who disagrees with this thread to try to read everyone's opinions up to this post before judging too quick and voting/replaying here. There have been all kinds of responses and here on MMORPG.com we've had opportunity to extensively debate about this thread. At the end regardless of what someone thinks your opinion is what matters the most and what it means for you to "win".
Let me get this straight... in order to play the game, you must pay. If you aren't playing the game, you cannot win. Thus, by that reasoning alone, Wildstar is pay to win. The only people not paying to win are those not playing the game.
OMG... for real? Ok... take the level out of it since you seem to be stuck on the whole "twink" thing. It could be a player of any fucking level that has a RIDICULOUS amount of money by purchasing CREDDS with real money and selling them in game.
Also.. CREDD can be purchased once every 22 hours. So yeah, you can only buy 30 in one month................... One a day. They're really making sure they limit folks on that. That's why it's 22 hours and not 24.
I'm just gonna stop now and wait and see all of you bitching in a month about the economy that has been fucked by CREDD.
Credd has existed in many games in many different forms, and those games have not had a 'wrecked' economy.
The gear you are complaining about that they could buy, could be earned easily... by crafting it yourself. Or doing some dungeons, but then again, most PVP gear is.. TOKENS ONLY!
So your fears are unfounded and frankly not based in reality.
Edit: Also end game gear? Elder gems, they're tokens too, earned, with a weekly cap. Again, no way to 'pay' to win that.
If it was pay to win as soon as you pay you get to win.
If you buy something and have to put it on the auction house and hope someone buys it you are not winning anything. What if no one pays for it?
Clearly the op has no clue what pay to win is and will continue to argue because some people are so full of themselves they can not admit they were wrong. Those people just have to be ignored.
Let me get this straight... in order to play the game, you must pay. If you aren't playing the game, you cannot win. Thus, by that reasoning alone, Wildstar is pay to win. The only people not paying to win are those not playing the game.
On topic, OP I hope you made this thread about Eve online as well....Oh you didn't? Agenda maybe? Perhaps you're upset that some people have found a game that they enjoy and you have not? Perhaps I will buy some CREDD this month to cover carbines losses since we won't be getting your support. I hope you have fun playing w/e game you end up in, that way we won't have to see you around ranting about a game you have no intent on playing. No offense meant.
Let me get this straight... in order to play the game, you must pay. If you aren't playing the game, you cannot win. Thus, by that reasoning alone, Wildstar is pay to win. The only people not paying to win are those not playing the game.
Wrong. Cannot and won't are two different words. If I don't play the game I WON'T be winning in that particular game, but I'll be winning against NCSoft in this instance since their goal is to take my $, but failed to do it. Wildstar is PAY to PLAY + PAY to WIN (in my opinion, of course)
Credd has existed in many games in many different forms, and those games have not had a 'wrecked' economy.
The gear you are complaining about that they could buy, could be earned easily... by crafting it yourself. Or doing some dungeons, but then again, most PVP gear is.. TOKENS ONLY!
So your fears are unfounded and frankly not based in reality.
Edit: Also end game gear? Elder gems, they're tokens too, earned, with a weekly cap. Again, no way to 'pay' to win that.
If you read the entire thread you would see where you are wrong since TOKENS ONLY, Bind on Pick up, etc gear that players like you believe that can be obtained only through the individuals effort are wrong. Since there is this thing called "services" and you'll be surprised what players with free time and in need of currency are willing to do to pilot/carry anyone through almost anything.
Firstly, lemme just say I haven't tried/bought or intend to buy/play WildStar and now with the C.R.E.D.D sadly won't be playing if/when it goes F2P as well.
Wildstar is a themepark MMORPG where in game curreny does not play a significant role since players will obtain the loot from bosses and to upgrade it won't be as costly) BUT in a themepark MMORPG where "collecting" plays a big role and is another crucial endgame feature I'm certain ingame currency will be on high demand to craft/own rare/expensive mounts, house items and whatever else they got there for collecting.
Quoting from Massively "C.R.E.D.D. is an in-game item that adds 30 days of play time to an account. Players can purchase one for $19.99 to sell on the exchange or purchase one from another player for in-game gold. Basically, it allows you to buy more game time with in-game currency or to gain more in-game currency with your real-world dollars."
So, basically a player who chooses to spend more $ will be easily bulking up ingame currency, thus the economy won't be existant. The saddest part is that NCsoft, CCP (with their plex system, which I think is same) believe that this will benefit them since they will encourage the "whales" players who willing to spend more $ in their cash shop to earn as much ingame currency as they please will be a good move.
Good thing I dodged WildStar and now I'm just more happy with my decision. As time goes by at least if companies employ these "tactics" I would yet to see them SHOW they actually care others than themself and allow its customers/players a chance for them too to SELL their currency/items for $ in a safe environment.
This community is welcome to share their opinion on this matter (especially if they disagree).
It is a decent question. Let me give you my opinion.
To decide whether something is pay-to-win, or really categorising any payment model these days is very complicated. Most smart companies are employing a combination of strategies to monetise effectively.
It is not that important whether a game has this label or that label, but what is the most important - and what I think you are actually asking, is whether the employed systems make for a better, or for worse player experience.
When it comes to systems like CREDD, you have to realise how they originated. The primary objective of a CREDD-like system is to move the activity from the illegal currency e-stores to a controlled environment. If a game did not have CREDD, it does not mean there would not be people selling ingame items for real money and if CREDD at least attempts to regulate that, then I'm glad it is there.
The second thing that a CREDD system would do as a side effect is allow people easy access to purchasing in-game currency with real money. In a game like Wildstar, the progression is layered across many dimensions and gear is only one of them. When you are running a level 20 dungeon, having better gear certainly helps, but knowing the mechanics and understanding your own character is the key factor to success. For a "traditional MMO", Wildstar is extremely skill based and as far as I can tell, gear is nowhere near as impactful as skill.
Another thing you have to consider is that gear itself is locked behind levels, and the best gear also has questlines linked to it. What that means is that if I get to level 40, I will actually have to do the work and collect in-game currency / gear on the way there. So far I had quite enough currency to gear myself well, spend some on crafting and on house improvements. In other words, there is not much of a gap between the amount of currency you make by playing and the currency you would need to buy to significantly improve your character.
So yes, CREDD does offer the chance for some players to buy better gear for real world money. The question is - will these players do better in difficult content than you? Does the game make it almost necessary for a player to purchase ingame currency? I would say no to both.
On the flip side, it does take part of the profit gold farmers would make and gives it into the hands of the developer - which is something I agree with.
There is a right way and a wrong way to implement a CREDD-like system and I think in Wildstar it has been implemented well. It does not personally put me in a disadvantaged role over those who decide to spend a lot of money and the whole system is so subtle that I literally don't even think about it.
Let me get this straight... in order to play the game, you must pay. If you aren't playing the game, you cannot win. Thus, by that reasoning alone, Wildstar is pay to win. The only people not paying to win are those not playing the game.
Wrong. Cannot and won't are two different words. If I don't play the game I WON'T be winning in that particular game, but I'll be winning against NCSoft in this instance since their goal is to take my $, but failed to do it. Wildstar is PAY to PLAY + PAY to WIN (in my opinion, of course)
What you accomplish in a MMORPG is actually in no way dependent on what other players do or don't do.You stand on your own two feet accomplish what you will, and showing off what you have to other players is really a bit shallow and reprehensible.
If you feel your experience is diminished somehow if another person has collected something that you haven't, then you are actually suffering from one of humanities worst emotions, envy, and it really isn't a reflection on whether the CRED system is pay to win or not.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by Kopogero he is right, you don't know what pay to win means and i am not a fan of wildstar either. collecting rare items or buying them in a cash shope has absolutely nothing to do with "winning".pay to win is when you can buy the best gear with real cash (or even significant gear, but not necessarily the best), like the RMAH D3 used to have for example.using your logic, every single item shop is pay to win, that's just dumb logic and grossly inaccurate.
If the game revolves around collecting things and if someone else can collect them faster or before me because he has more $ that he convert in more ingame currency then yes he is winning against me and he is also my competition since he can offer more than me to purchase things. It also diminshes my experience and purpose to play the game and gain the things I'm able to gain. It can be rares, mounts, gear, skilled players in guild, titles, achievement and so forth.
And no, not every single item shop is pay to win. Example: only one known mount, pet, pants, skill animation etc are exclusive non tradable/supporter items players can choose to buy/use. That's not winnning against me because EVERYBODY knows that the item they've bought can only be bought from the cash shop.
If the game also allows me to purchase extra storage, but that storage can't be abused to make more currency (like in Path of Exile) then I would also not consider it pay to win. In Path of Exile there are certain recipes designed to benefit those who got far more storage to "match" and convert for currency.
I would suggess/appreciate if any other poster here who disagrees with this thread to try to read everyone's opinions up to this post before judging too quick and voting/replaying here. There have been all kinds of responses and here on MMORPG.com we've had opportunity to extensively debate about this thread. At the end regardless of what someone thinks your opinion is what matters the most and what it means for you to "win".
uhh no, having a special mount or a different looking piece of armor that gives no competitive advantage is not them "winning against you" lol
i don't need to read the entire thread, i know what p2w is and what you describe isn't it. there is a gigantic difference between buying items on a cash shop that doesn't give you a competitive advantage and buying items that do, that is the difference between p2w and a cosmetic item in an item shop.
you are trying to lump both of those together into the same thing and like i said before, that is grossly inaccurate.
have you played an mmo where you can buy all the gear with real cash? like the example i used in my last post? do you think there is no difference between that and being able to buy a cosmetic piece of gear that gives that player no competitive advantage?
Its P2W.....If you consider leveling up your crafting winning.
The money isn't appearing out of nowhere, their not selling flat out chunks of cash being pulled from the abyss. Its money that is already in-game. I think it makes for a pretty nice economy.
What you accomplish in a MMORPG is actually in no way dependent on what other players do or don't do.You stand on your own two feet accomplish what you will, and showing off what you have to other players is really a bit shallow and reprehensible.
If you feel your experience is diminished somehow if another person has collected something that you haven't, then you are actually suffering from one of humanities worst emotions, envy, and it really isn't a reflection on whether the CRED system is pay to win or not.
Interesting you chose phrase things that way. Typically the only people who have a problem with someone collecting something in game through regular un-cash assisted game play, are the people who buy gold. They say things like "I don't have time to collect X, so I buy it."
I don't think OP has a problem with someone collecting something in game that he hasn't. I think he like many others have an issue when people buy it.
What you accomplish in a MMORPG is actually in no way dependent on what other players do or don't do.You stand on your own two feet accomplish what you will, and showing off what you have to other players is really a bit shallow and reprehensible.
If you feel your experience is diminished somehow if another person has collected something that you haven't, then you are actually suffering from one of humanities worst emotions, envy, and it really isn't a reflection on whether the CRED system is pay to win or not.
Interesting you chose phrase things that way. Typically the only people who have a problem with someone collecting something in game through regular un-cash assisted game play, are the people who buy gold. They say things like "I don't have time to collect X, so I buy it."
I don't think OP has a problem with someone collecting something in game that he hasn't. I think he like many others have an issue when people buy it.
What you accomplish in a MMORPG is actually in no way dependent on what other players do or don't do.You stand on your own two feet accomplish what you will, and showing off what you have to other players is really a bit shallow and reprehensible.
If you feel your experience is diminished somehow if another person has collected something that you haven't, then you are actually suffering from one of humanities worst emotions, envy, and it really isn't a reflection on whether the CRED system is pay to win or not.
Interesting you chose phrase things that way. Typically the only people who have a problem with someone collecting something in game through regular un-cash assisted game play, are the people who buy gold. They say things like "I don't have time to collect X, so I buy it."
I don't think OP has a problem with someone collecting something in game that he hasn't. I think he like many others have an issue when people buy it.
yes....and what do you think that emotion is ?
Anger? I think that's what I usually feel when I perceive a game isn't being played fair. OP says he feels a cheapening of the process, or of the game.
In fact I think it's quite the opposite of envy, (even though my comment you quoted did not address the emotion) the emotion is probably closer to despise. We call them things like "dirty gold buyers" and "pay2winners".
What you accomplish in a MMORPG is actually in no way dependent on what other players do or don't do.You stand on your own two feet accomplish what you will, and showing off what you have to other players is really a bit shallow and reprehensible.
If you feel your experience is diminished somehow if another person has collected something that you haven't, then you are actually suffering from one of humanities worst emotions, envy, and it really isn't a reflection on whether the CRED system is pay to win or not.
Interesting you chose phrase things that way. Typically the only people who have a problem with someone collecting something in game through regular un-cash assisted game play, are the people who buy gold. They say things like "I don't have time to collect X, so I buy it."
I don't think OP has a problem with someone collecting something in game that he hasn't. I think he like many others have an issue when people buy it.
yes....and what do you think that emotion is ?
Anger? I think that's what I usually feel when I perceive a game isn't being played fair. OP says he feels a cheapening of the process, or of the game.
In fact I think it's quite the opposite of envy, (even though my comment you quoted did not address the emotion) the emotion is probably closer to despise. We call them things like "dirty gold buyers" and "pay2winners".
So buying that convenient early level horse in the ESO cash shop would be considered despicable right? Those dirty, dirty pay2winners.
What you accomplish in a MMORPG is actually in no way dependent on what other players do or don't do.You stand on your own two feet accomplish what you will, and showing off what you have to other players is really a bit shallow and reprehensible.
If you feel your experience is diminished somehow if another person has collected something that you haven't, then you are actually suffering from one of humanities worst emotions, envy, and it really isn't a reflection on whether the CRED system is pay to win or not.
Interesting you chose phrase things that way. Typically the only people who have a problem with someone collecting something in game through regular un-cash assisted game play, are the people who buy gold. They say things like "I don't have time to collect X, so I buy it."
I don't think OP has a problem with someone collecting something in game that he hasn't. I think he like many others have an issue when people buy it.
yes....and what do you think that emotion is ?
Anger? I think that's what I usually feel when I perceive a game isn't being played fair. OP says he feels a cheapening of the process, or of the game.
In fact I think it's quite the opposite of envy, (even though my comment you quoted did not address the emotion) the emotion is probably closer to despise. We call them things like "dirty gold buyers" and "pay2winners".
The OP hasnt played 1 minute of the game. How does he feel cheapened?
What you accomplish in a MMORPG is actually in no way dependent on what other players do or don't do.You stand on your own two feet accomplish what you will, and showing off what you have to other players is really a bit shallow and reprehensible.
If you feel your experience is diminished somehow if another person has collected something that you haven't, then you are actually suffering from one of humanities worst emotions, envy, and it really isn't a reflection on whether the CRED system is pay to win or not.
Interesting you chose phrase things that way. Typically the only people who have a problem with someone collecting something in game through regular un-cash assisted game play, are the people who buy gold. They say things like "I don't have time to collect X, so I buy it."
I don't think OP has a problem with someone collecting something in game that he hasn't. I think he like many others have an issue when people buy it.
yes....and what do you think that emotion is ?
Anger? I think that's what I usually feel when I perceive a game isn't being played fair. OP says he feels a cheapening of the process, or of the game.
In fact I think it's quite the opposite of envy, (even though my comment you quoted did not address the emotion) the emotion is probably closer to despise. We call them things like "dirty gold buyers" and "pay2winners".
So buying that convenient early level horse in the ESO cash shop would be considered despicable right? Those dirty, dirty pay2winners.
Personally, I didn't like the horse or the imperial race costing more. The horse is a huge advantage especially early in game.
I wont even argue if ESO has a cash shop or not, they do sell a horse though so you can call it that if you like.
What you accomplish in a MMORPG is actually in no way dependent on what other players do or don't do.You stand on your own two feet accomplish what you will, and showing off what you have to other players is really a bit shallow and reprehensible.
If you feel your experience is diminished somehow if another person has collected something that you haven't, then you are actually suffering from one of humanities worst emotions, envy, and it really isn't a reflection on whether the CRED system is pay to win or not.
Interesting you chose phrase things that way. Typically the only people who have a problem with someone collecting something in game through regular un-cash assisted game play, are the people who buy gold. They say things like "I don't have time to collect X, so I buy it."
I don't think OP has a problem with someone collecting something in game that he hasn't. I think he like many others have an issue when people buy it.
yes....and what do you think that emotion is ?
Anger? I think that's what I usually feel when I perceive a game isn't being played fair. OP says he feels a cheapening of the process, or of the game.
In fact I think it's quite the opposite of envy, (even though my comment you quoted did not address the emotion) the emotion is probably closer to despise. We call them things like "dirty gold buyers" and "pay2winners".
So buying that convenient early level horse in the ESO cash shop would be considered despicable right? Those dirty, dirty pay2winners.
Personally, I didn't like the horse or the imperial race costing more. The horse is a huge advantage especially early in game.
So you play a Pay to Win game. The OP plays a pay to win game. These players play a pay to win game. So why is this a discussion then?
What you accomplish in a MMORPG is actually in no way dependent on what other players do or don't do.You stand on your own two feet accomplish what you will, and showing off what you have to other players is really a bit shallow and reprehensible.
If you feel your experience is diminished somehow if another person has collected something that you haven't, then you are actually suffering from one of humanities worst emotions, envy, and it really isn't a reflection on whether the CRED system is pay to win or not.
Interesting you chose phrase things that way. Typically the only people who have a problem with someone collecting something in game through regular un-cash assisted game play, are the people who buy gold. They say things like "I don't have time to collect X, so I buy it."
I don't think OP has a problem with someone collecting something in game that he hasn't. I think he like many others have an issue when people buy it.
yes....and what do you think that emotion is ?
Anger? I think that's what I usually feel when I perceive a game isn't being played fair. OP says he feels a cheapening of the process, or of the game.
In fact I think it's quite the opposite of envy, (even though my comment you quoted did not address the emotion) the emotion is probably closer to despise. We call them things like "dirty gold buyers" and "pay2winners".
So buying that convenient early level horse in the ESO cash shop would be considered despicable right? Those dirty, dirty pay2winners.
Personally, I didn't like the horse or the imperial race costing more. The horse is a huge advantage especially early in game.
So you play a Pay to Win game. The OP plays a pay to win game. These players play a pay to win game. So why is this a discussion then?
Sure if you want to look at that way, I think it's a pretty silly way of looking at it though. That's like saying a kid stealing a cookie is the same thing as an adult robbing a bank. Sure you can call them both thieves, but I hope you can see the difference between the two.
Where as ESO offered a horse with purchase of the game, or the option for those who did not buy the upgraded edition to buy the horse later, Wildstar offers a way for players to convert $$ to gold every 22 hours. Can you see the difference?
Envy has a sister,it's called Vanity, and I see both as driving people's "anger" against those who buy gold. Toss in their brother jealousy and you have a trio of frustration for many of the complainers.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Pay to win is a very abstract matter. Most people think that some form of items have to be sold that give the buyer a significant boost in power. But i don't think it necessarily works that way.
Let's say I'm a terrible player with a high disposable income. I buy a few C.R.E.D.D.s with real money and sell them ingame for gold. And at this point I try to find a guild on my server that takes that gold to carry me through the Raid attunements and later (when the Raids are on farm for the best ones) through the whole Raids. For enough gold I'll even get the loot. So, I'll gain a significant boost in my power for real money. I won't get better gear than other players, but at least the best gear available. It'll be very expensive. But it'll happen like it happens in every themepark mmo with item progression. This time only official, not with a grey market involved. And that is not the only way to gain a significant advantage by paying real money in this game (but probably the most important).
Sure, the gold for all this C.R.E.D.D.s first has to be "earned" ingame by someone else. But with enough farm bots, hacked accounts (really don't know if there is some form of account rollback like in WoW; that would mean: gold out of thin air) and similar things it won't take too long til there's enough gold in the system that it'll work. You don't have item decay or huge gold sinks anyways. So the system will be flooded with gold in no time.
TLDR: it's a (very sophisticated) way of pay to win. But at least the developers and a few players can participate and take advantage of it (without risking their accounts that means). I even start to wonder if it is a coincidence that this game is so damn hard at endgame.
Comments
That dimishes the point of collecting in first play, thus making the experience unfun, unrewarding and pointless. Also every single item that will require ingame currency to obtain basically can be obtained easily for $ and it won't be just about obtaining items it will be about a lot of other things.
For instance I can easily bring most players I want in my guild for the right sum (which means bringing players from other guilds as well). You'll be surprised what players are willing to do for free currency.
he is right, you don't know what pay to win means and i am not a fan of wildstar either. collecting rare items or buying them in a cash shope has absolutely nothing to do with "winning".
pay to win is when you can buy the best gear with real cash (or even significant gear, but not necessarily the best), like the RMAH D3 used to have for example.
using your logic, every single item shop is pay to win, that's just dumb logic and grossly inaccurate.
If the game revolves around collecting things and if someone else can collect them faster or before me because he has more $ that he convert in more ingame currency then yes he is winning against me and he is also my competition since he can offer more than me to purchase things. It also diminshes my experience and purpose to play the game and gain the things I'm able to gain. It can be rares, mounts, gear, skilled players in guild, titles, achievement and so forth.
And no, not every single item shop is pay to win. Example: only one known mount, pet, pants, skill animation etc are exclusive non tradable/supporter items players can choose to buy/use. That's not winnning against me because EVERYBODY knows that the item they've bought can only be bought from the cash shop.
If the game also allows me to purchase extra storage, but that storage can't be abused to make more currency (like in Path of Exile) then I would also not consider it pay to win. In Path of Exile there are certain recipes designed to benefit those who got far more storage to "match" and convert for currency.
I would suggess/appreciate if any other poster here who disagrees with this thread to try to read everyone's opinions up to this post before judging too quick and voting/replaying here. There have been all kinds of responses and here on MMORPG.com we've had opportunity to extensively debate about this thread. At the end regardless of what someone thinks your opinion is what matters the most and what it means for you to "win".
Let me get this straight... in order to play the game, you must pay. If you aren't playing the game, you cannot win. Thus, by that reasoning alone, Wildstar is pay to win. The only people not paying to win are those not playing the game.
Don't play, don't win. Don't pay, don't play. Pay, play. Play, win.
Credd has existed in many games in many different forms, and those games have not had a 'wrecked' economy.
The gear you are complaining about that they could buy, could be earned easily... by crafting it yourself. Or doing some dungeons, but then again, most PVP gear is.. TOKENS ONLY!
So your fears are unfounded and frankly not based in reality.
Edit: Also end game gear? Elder gems, they're tokens too, earned, with a weekly cap. Again, no way to 'pay' to win that.
If it was pay to win as soon as you pay you get to win.
If you buy something and have to put it on the auction house and hope someone buys it you are not winning anything. What if no one pays for it?
Clearly the op has no clue what pay to win is and will continue to argue because some people are so full of themselves they can not admit they were wrong. Those people just have to be ignored.
I love this. You're awesome.
On topic, OP I hope you made this thread about Eve online as well....Oh you didn't? Agenda maybe? Perhaps you're upset that some people have found a game that they enjoy and you have not? Perhaps I will buy some CREDD this month to cover carbines losses since we won't be getting your support. I hope you have fun playing w/e game you end up in, that way we won't have to see you around ranting about a game you have no intent on playing. No offense meant.
Wrong. Cannot and won't are two different words. If I don't play the game I WON'T be winning in that particular game, but I'll be winning against NCSoft in this instance since their goal is to take my $, but failed to do it. Wildstar is PAY to PLAY + PAY to WIN (in my opinion, of course)
If you read the entire thread you would see where you are wrong since TOKENS ONLY, Bind on Pick up, etc gear that players like you believe that can be obtained only through the individuals effort are wrong. Since there is this thing called "services" and you'll be surprised what players with free time and in need of currency are willing to do to pilot/carry anyone through almost anything.
It is a decent question. Let me give you my opinion.
To decide whether something is pay-to-win, or really categorising any payment model these days is very complicated. Most smart companies are employing a combination of strategies to monetise effectively.
It is not that important whether a game has this label or that label, but what is the most important - and what I think you are actually asking, is whether the employed systems make for a better, or for worse player experience.
When it comes to systems like CREDD, you have to realise how they originated. The primary objective of a CREDD-like system is to move the activity from the illegal currency e-stores to a controlled environment. If a game did not have CREDD, it does not mean there would not be people selling ingame items for real money and if CREDD at least attempts to regulate that, then I'm glad it is there.
The second thing that a CREDD system would do as a side effect is allow people easy access to purchasing in-game currency with real money. In a game like Wildstar, the progression is layered across many dimensions and gear is only one of them. When you are running a level 20 dungeon, having better gear certainly helps, but knowing the mechanics and understanding your own character is the key factor to success. For a "traditional MMO", Wildstar is extremely skill based and as far as I can tell, gear is nowhere near as impactful as skill.
Another thing you have to consider is that gear itself is locked behind levels, and the best gear also has questlines linked to it. What that means is that if I get to level 40, I will actually have to do the work and collect in-game currency / gear on the way there. So far I had quite enough currency to gear myself well, spend some on crafting and on house improvements. In other words, there is not much of a gap between the amount of currency you make by playing and the currency you would need to buy to significantly improve your character.
So yes, CREDD does offer the chance for some players to buy better gear for real world money. The question is - will these players do better in difficult content than you? Does the game make it almost necessary for a player to purchase ingame currency? I would say no to both.
On the flip side, it does take part of the profit gold farmers would make and gives it into the hands of the developer - which is something I agree with.
There is a right way and a wrong way to implement a CREDD-like system and I think in Wildstar it has been implemented well. It does not personally put me in a disadvantaged role over those who decide to spend a lot of money and the whole system is so subtle that I literally don't even think about it.
Thats your opinion. It just happens to be wrong.
What you accomplish in a MMORPG is actually in no way dependent on what other players do or don't do.You stand on your own two feet accomplish what you will, and showing off what you have to other players is really a bit shallow and reprehensible.
If you feel your experience is diminished somehow if another person has collected something that you haven't, then you are actually suffering from one of humanities worst emotions, envy, and it really isn't a reflection on whether the CRED system is pay to win or not.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
And no, not every single item shop is pay to win. Example: only one known mount, pet, pants, skill animation etc are exclusive non tradable/supporter items players can choose to buy/use. That's not winnning against me because EVERYBODY knows that the item they've bought can only be bought from the cash shop.
If the game also allows me to purchase extra storage, but that storage can't be abused to make more currency (like in Path of Exile) then I would also not consider it pay to win. In Path of Exile there are certain recipes designed to benefit those who got far more storage to "match" and convert for currency.
I would suggess/appreciate if any other poster here who disagrees with this thread to try to read everyone's opinions up to this post before judging too quick and voting/replaying here. There have been all kinds of responses and here on MMORPG.com we've had opportunity to extensively debate about this thread. At the end regardless of what someone thinks your opinion is what matters the most and what it means for you to "win".
uhh no, having a special mount or a different looking piece of armor that gives no competitive advantage is not them "winning against you" lol
i don't need to read the entire thread, i know what p2w is and what you describe isn't it. there is a gigantic difference between buying items on a cash shop that doesn't give you a competitive advantage and buying items that do, that is the difference between p2w and a cosmetic item in an item shop.
you are trying to lump both of those together into the same thing and like i said before, that is grossly inaccurate.
have you played an mmo where you can buy all the gear with real cash? like the example i used in my last post? do you think there is no difference between that and being able to buy a cosmetic piece of gear that gives that player no competitive advantage?
Its P2W.....If you consider leveling up your crafting winning.
The money isn't appearing out of nowhere, their not selling flat out chunks of cash being pulled from the abyss. Its money that is already in-game. I think it makes for a pretty nice economy.
Interesting you chose phrase things that way. Typically the only people who have a problem with someone collecting something in game through regular un-cash assisted game play, are the people who buy gold. They say things like "I don't have time to collect X, so I buy it."
I don't think OP has a problem with someone collecting something in game that he hasn't. I think he like many others have an issue when people buy it.
yes....and what do you think that emotion is ?
Anger? I think that's what I usually feel when I perceive a game isn't being played fair. OP says he feels a cheapening of the process, or of the game.
In fact I think it's quite the opposite of envy, (even though my comment you quoted did not address the emotion) the emotion is probably closer to despise. We call them things like "dirty gold buyers" and "pay2winners".
So buying that convenient early level horse in the ESO cash shop would be considered despicable right? Those dirty, dirty pay2winners.
The OP hasnt played 1 minute of the game. How does he feel cheapened?
Personally, I didn't like the horse or the imperial race costing more. The horse is a huge advantage especially early in game.
I wont even argue if ESO has a cash shop or not, they do sell a horse though so you can call it that if you like.
So you play a Pay to Win game. The OP plays a pay to win game. These players play a pay to win game. So why is this a discussion then?
Because being a judgmental self righteous hypocrite is the right way to bridge the gap between peoples different choices in how they play a game.
Sure if you want to look at that way, I think it's a pretty silly way of looking at it though. That's like saying a kid stealing a cookie is the same thing as an adult robbing a bank. Sure you can call them both thieves, but I hope you can see the difference between the two.
Where as ESO offered a horse with purchase of the game, or the option for those who did not buy the upgraded edition to buy the horse later, Wildstar offers a way for players to convert $$ to gold every 22 hours. Can you see the difference?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Pay to win is a very abstract matter. Most people think that some form of items have to be sold that give the buyer a significant boost in power. But i don't think it necessarily works that way.
Let's say I'm a terrible player with a high disposable income. I buy a few C.R.E.D.D.s with real money and sell them ingame for gold. And at this point I try to find a guild on my server that takes that gold to carry me through the Raid attunements and later (when the Raids are on farm for the best ones) through the whole Raids. For enough gold I'll even get the loot. So, I'll gain a significant boost in my power for real money. I won't get better gear than other players, but at least the best gear available. It'll be very expensive. But it'll happen like it happens in every themepark mmo with item progression. This time only official, not with a grey market involved. And that is not the only way to gain a significant advantage by paying real money in this game (but probably the most important).
Sure, the gold for all this C.R.E.D.D.s first has to be "earned" ingame by someone else. But with enough farm bots, hacked accounts (really don't know if there is some form of account rollback like in WoW; that would mean: gold out of thin air) and similar things it won't take too long til there's enough gold in the system that it'll work. You don't have item decay or huge gold sinks anyways. So the system will be flooded with gold in no time.
TLDR: it's a (very sophisticated) way of pay to win. But at least the developers and a few players can participate and take advantage of it (without risking their accounts that means). I even start to wonder if it is a coincidence that this game is so damn hard at endgame.