Originally posted by Jemcrystal It's not just "Wild West." It is anything not Fantasy or Sci-Fi. Take Steam Punk, which I love, but I'm not playing in an mmo where there are no other players. Devs have to capitalize on what is popular with the major majority. Massive Multiplayer means you need a shit load of people on board. So you have to find a theme that appeals to all not a few.
so this is where the whole 'supply' argument comes.
If players do not have the option (not in supply) then how do the creators know the players want it?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
To be fair we have had the secret world (lovecraft ish), AOC (bloody fantasy), SWTOR (nuff said), Wildstar (fantasy/scifi/wild west). I'm sure it goes on. As for Wild West specifically, that's an American thing, guns, lawless killing and Indian slaughter does not really appeal to many outside America.
Steam punk sounds good!
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Bladestrom To be fair we have had the secret world (lovecraft ish), AOC (bloody fantasy), SWTOR (nuff said), Wildstar (fantasy/scifi/wild west). I'm sure it goes on. As for Wild West specifically, that's an American thing, guns, lawless killing and Indian slaughter does not really appeal to many outside America.
Steam punk sounds good!
Wildstar Is more of a cartoon sandbox then a genre.
I know for many making a cartoon western is the same as making a western but for many of us from older generations it aint the same thing
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Originally posted by Jemcrystal It's not just "Wild West." It is anything not Fantasy or Sci-Fi. Take Steam Punk, which I love, but I'm not playing in an mmo where there are no other players. Devs have to capitalize on what is popular with the major majority. Massive Multiplayer means you need a shit load of people on board. So you have to find a theme that appeals to all not a few.
so this is where the whole 'supply' argument comes.
If players do not have the option (not in supply) then how do the creators know the players want it?
By doing marketing research? which i assume the big devs do often.
Originally posted by Jemcrystal It's not just "Wild West." It is anything not Fantasy or Sci-Fi. Take Steam Punk, which I love, but I'm not playing in an mmo where there are no other players. Devs have to capitalize on what is popular with the major majority. Massive Multiplayer means you need a shit load of people on board. So you have to find a theme that appeals to all not a few.
so this is where the whole 'supply' argument comes.
If players do not have the option (not in supply) then how do the creators know the players want it?
By doing marketing research? which i assume the big devs do often.
They do not in the way you think.
Which is why 'indie' games are such a huge success. They tend to take more risks.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
It's a question that has always been in the back of my mind, and something often discussed among my gaming group of friends.
Playing some Red Dead Redemption again lately made me revisit the question. In some ways I can see the setting lending itself well to the MMO format. It would make sense to have lots of players around as no one needs to the be the "hero", but just another lone ranger, or posse, bandit or lawman. PVP would work in terms of bandits against lawmen, or even open world PVP with a crime system and players signing up as deputies. There's a wealth of sandbox elements that would be interesting too such as prospecting, cattle wrangling and horse taming to name a few. And it wouldn't be fantasy or sci fi, but something different entirely.
I'm not saying I want someone to make a Wild West MMO. I think the market is pretty flooded with mediocrity these days. But I have often wondered why we never saw one (or perhaps I'm wrong and there's a crappy one I overlooked).
Yee-ha! They could have a quest where you form up a posse and go round up slaves...yessssirrrreeeee those would be some good good good times!
In all seriousness, a Red Dead Redemption mmo would work in a hard core sandbox format. Anything less would just look like a family facebook app.
I want a sandbox mmo that takes place in the mid 1800's in New York city so I can join the Dead Rabbits gang http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Rabbits and fight mobs at The Five Points. That was an intense time and place for America and I would think there would be a seemingly endless amount of material for a developer to take from. It would probably be too violent though, so maybe not.
The answer is that in the west, unlike a fantasy setting, futuristic setting, or silly cartoon scifi...dead is dead. Too bad Fallen Earth had 0 content after the newbie region. That game was plenty cowboy.
Originally posted by Darth-Batman I want a sandbox mmo that takes place in the mid 1800's in New York city so I can join the Dead Rabbits gang http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Rabbits and fight mobs at The Five Points. That was an intense time and place for America and I would think there would be a seemingly endless amount of material for a developer to take from. It would probably be too violent though, so maybe not.
More violent than GTA? Max Payne? When is violence a bad thing for video games?
I think people on this topic has it all wrong. The question is probably less of the setting itself, but the kind of gameplay mechanics the setting can support.
In this case you can probably make a shooter, or a combo-based brawling game. But a MMO?
I think the answer is as simple as looking at the common settings on television, in movies, books and in graphic novels. The West is not a common setting. It's an awesome setting, and can be applied to several different existing settings, like fantasy, steam punk, sci-fi and even horror, but as a primary setting it just doesn't seem to be a going thing right now.
It would be cool though. I think it would lend itself well to either a sandbox or theme park setting, could work with PvP, several factions and has the option of either being historically accurate or having an alternative history. There is a lot of material to choose from for a frame work too.
The only reason developers would not use it, in my opinion, is the general popularity or pervasiveness of the setting.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The reason is this genre is the least diverse and least risk taking genre. Expensive games have made developers stick to the working formulas through imitation.
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal The reason is this genre is the least diverse and least risk taking genre. Expensive games have made developers stick to the working formulas through imitation.
As mentioned previously, there are several issues hampering an MMO truly set in the "Old West". Certainly in today's atmosphere of political correct sensitivities, it would be very hard to properly incorporate the element of Native Americans without being offensive (to someone), even if the "faction" was evenly balanced.
However, there is plenty of lore available to leave out that aspect completely and base an MMO entirely on the frontier towns, gold rushes, settlers, lawmen, bandits, bounty hunters, thieves, and murderers. Fallen Earth (minus the mutation powers) already has that sort of feel, with a balance of melee, pistols, and rifles. The magnificent HBO series Deadwood could be a good template for developing characters (Al Swearengen never used a gun), especially since the Native Americans played almost no role in the main plot of the series...
Additionally, the genre need not limit itself to the American West, as there are quite few very good Australian films based on the same time period (see: The Proposition, for example). Even a bit of the 60's show Wild, Wild West or The Adventures of Brisco County Jr. might not be too outrageous (although alien orbs might be too much)
I would think it would necessarily be at least an open-world sort of thing, although FFA PvP would be a deal-breaker for many, the consequences in a settled area might be severe indeed and temper the frustration of new players. Incorporating historical figures might lend some more colour to the entire affair...the Earps, James Gang, the Cowboys, etc.
Make no mistake, despite the amateurish efforts mentioned previously and already undertaken, there will be a quality MMO that more faithfully adheres to the spirit and history of the West...eventually.
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal The reason is this genre is the least diverse and least risk taking genre. Expensive games have made developers stick to the working formulas through imitation.
uh? What are you talking about?
TOR is a huge risk to spend that much into stories .. and they almost lost it all.
MOBA and 100% instanced games like WoT are such a big change .. now obviously all devs know it is a good idea, but that is a big risk.
Destiny .. totally junk the persistent world, or even common zone thing .. and do seamless matching. There are plenty of risk taking.
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal The reason is this genre is the least diverse and least risk taking genre. Expensive games have made developers stick to the working formulas through imitation.
uh? What are you talking about?
TOR is a huge risk to spend that much into stories .. and they almost lost it all.
MOBA and 100% instanced games like WoT are such a big change .. now obviously all devs know it is a good idea, but that is a big risk.
Destiny .. totally junk the persistent world, or even common zone thing .. and do seamless matching. There are plenty of risk taking.
Bioware wasn't a huge risk. They took WoW and added Bioware's typically successful Dragon Age/Mass Effect type story.
MOBA are RTS Mods forming a genre. They were free mods. They became popular and developers monetized it. Its also not an MMORPG.
Destiny is not a MMORPG as far as I know. Its just a multiplayer game.
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal The reason is this genre is the least diverse and least risk taking genre. Expensive games have made developers stick to the working formulas through imitation.
uh? What are you talking about?
TOR is a huge risk to spend that much into stories .. and they almost lost it all.
MOBA and 100% instanced games like WoT are such a big change .. now obviously all devs know it is a good idea, but that is a big risk.
Destiny .. totally junk the persistent world, or even common zone thing .. and do seamless matching. There are plenty of risk taking.
Bioware wasn't a huge risk. They took WoW and added Bioware's typically successful Dragon Age/Mass Effect type story.
MOBA are RTS Mods forming a genre. They were free mods. They became popular and developers monetized it. Its also not an MMORPG.
Destiny is not a MMORPG as far as I know. Its just a multiplayer game.
Of course TOR is a huge risk .. another 200M investment is.
You can take risk if you just follow the MMORPG formula and use old and tried ideas. By definition, taking risk is doing something different (like Destiny).
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal The reason is this genre is the least diverse and least risk taking genre. Expensive games have made developers stick to the working formulas through imitation.
uh? What are you talking about?
TOR is a huge risk to spend that much into stories .. and they almost lost it all.
MOBA and 100% instanced games like WoT are such a big change .. now obviously all devs know it is a good idea, but that is a big risk.
Destiny .. totally junk the persistent world, or even common zone thing .. and do seamless matching. There are plenty of risk taking.
Bioware wasn't a huge risk. They took WoW and added Bioware's typically successful Dragon Age/Mass Effect type story.
MOBA are RTS Mods forming a genre. They were free mods. They became popular and developers monetized it. Its also not an MMORPG.
Destiny is not a MMORPG as far as I know. Its just a multiplayer game.
Originally posted by BurntCabbage too much racism back then with not only Indians but afro-americans....not to mention the huge territory wars between the crips n bloods
A wild west game? Well, I'd play it if it was good. In fact, if someone were to license the Deadlands RPG setting (western setting around and just after the American civil war with horror and even some steampunk elements) I'd play the hell out of that!
Originally posted by SteinarB A wild west game? Well, I'd play it if it was good. In fact, if someone were to license the Deadlands RPG setting (western setting around and just after the American civil war with horror and even some steampunk elements) I'd play the hell out of that!
I can say that for almost any RPG, action game, and shooters.
In fact, the last good wild west game i played is Call of Juarez (the recent one .. there are a few). It has interesting narrative mechanics, and the shooting action is not too shabby.
The OP raises a good question. I imagine it's a number of things #1 being the sheeple mentality of the gaming companies today. If someone hasn't already done a WoW-in the West that brought in gazilions no one wants to even think about doing one. What are they going to make their own version of, copy of? What's the model? I personally think HBO's DeadWood as model would be interesting. But really just how do you make a MMO in the Wild West? What kind of game mechanics do you use? Fantasy and Sci/Fi both give you obvious options on "re-spawning" after death, no such thing in the Wild West. Maybe you kind of get around it saying no the character doesn't die, just close and "wakes up" at the doc's place "It was close there son, we thought you were dead, but you pulled through!", although that gets kinda ridiculous after the 10th time... Course it doesn't have to be a combat centric game (now that would be something wouldn't it!). People in DeadWood weren't dying left and right, even though there was significant violence. Be something of a inovation to use serious violence, beaten up, cuts, non-leathal gun-shots, but not fatal as a game mechanic. Certainly more realistic. With good programing and graphics could make it work. Character gets more debilitated till it gets rest, recuperation, medical treatment. But anyway, to do the West right it would need to be different then what's the endless usual, it would require some innovation, and we all know there's no market for that today in crony-capitalist-merica!
Originally posted by Jemcrystal It's not just "Wild West." It is anything not Fantasy or Sci-Fi. Take Steam Punk, which I love, but I'm not playing in an mmo where there are no other players. Devs have to capitalize on what is popular with the major majority. Massive Multiplayer means you need a shit load of people on board. So you have to find a theme that appeals to all not a few.
Why does it have to be a MMO?
Incredible Adv of Van Helsing is a great steam punk ARPG with character. I doubt a MMO will make something like that better.
It doesn't have to be mmo just we are on an mmo forum where moderator warnings state "stay on topic." :P
Originally posted by Jemcrystal It's not just "Wild West." It is anything not Fantasy or Sci-Fi. Take Steam Punk, which I love, but I'm not playing in an mmo where there are no other players. Devs have to capitalize on what is popular with the major majority. Massive Multiplayer means you need a shit load of people on board. So you have to find a theme that appeals to all not a few.
Why does it have to be a MMO?
Incredible Adv of Van Helsing is a great steam punk ARPG with character. I doubt a MMO will make something like that better.
It doesn't have to be mmo just we are on an mmo forum where moderator warnings state "stay on topic." :P
yes, but ..
a) the definition of MMO is up to debate and fuzzy ... so if LoL and WoT are MMOs according to some industry sites, online ARPGs are close enough, and
b) even this place is broadening to cover RPGs (this was discussed some time ago), and non-MMOs like D3, LoL, DDO are discussed here often, so I don't see a problem.
If D3 is close enough, Incredible Adv of Van Helsing is certainly close enough. And certainly if people don't know about it, it is a *good* thing for them to know and check out if they are interested in steampunk.
Comments
so this is where the whole 'supply' argument comes.
If players do not have the option (not in supply) then how do the creators know the players want it?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
i miss the 80s and 90s when there were many singleplayer RPGs being made
and not run of the mill fantasy
like Planetscape Torment
or
Arcanum (released in 2001 but may as well been the 90s)
seems like devs would rather focus on online gaming now
or maybe the "digital only" indies have taken over
EQ2 fan sites
Steam punk sounds good!
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Wildstar Is more of a cartoon sandbox then a genre.
I know for many making a cartoon western is the same as making a western but for many of us from older generations it aint the same thing
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
By doing marketing research? which i assume the big devs do often.
They do not in the way you think.
Which is why 'indie' games are such a huge success. They tend to take more risks.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
hmm ... there are plenty today
Van Helsing 1 & 2 .. steampunk ARPGs
Shadowrun Return ... traditional SP turn-based cyberpunk (with hacking) RPG
Deus Ex Human Evolution ... AAA cyberpunk RPG + stealth
Dishonored ... AAA stealth steampunk FPS with RPG elements
Mass Effect ... AAA sci-fi action RPG
... in fact, most stealth/action game (even Thief and Tomb Raider) has *some* RPG elements.
Yee-ha! They could have a quest where you form up a posse and go round up slaves...yessssirrrreeeee those would be some good good good times!
In all seriousness, a Red Dead Redemption mmo would work in a hard core sandbox format. Anything less would just look like a family facebook app.
More violent than GTA? Max Payne? When is violence a bad thing for video games?
I think people on this topic has it all wrong. The question is probably less of the setting itself, but the kind of gameplay mechanics the setting can support.
In this case you can probably make a shooter, or a combo-based brawling game. But a MMO?
I think the answer is as simple as looking at the common settings on television, in movies, books and in graphic novels. The West is not a common setting. It's an awesome setting, and can be applied to several different existing settings, like fantasy, steam punk, sci-fi and even horror, but as a primary setting it just doesn't seem to be a going thing right now.
It would be cool though. I think it would lend itself well to either a sandbox or theme park setting, could work with PvP, several factions and has the option of either being historically accurate or having an alternative history. There is a lot of material to choose from for a frame work too.
The only reason developers would not use it, in my opinion, is the general popularity or pervasiveness of the setting.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I wish I could give you Mmorpg.com gold...
As mentioned previously, there are several issues hampering an MMO truly set in the "Old West". Certainly in today's atmosphere of political correct sensitivities, it would be very hard to properly incorporate the element of Native Americans without being offensive (to someone), even if the "faction" was evenly balanced.
However, there is plenty of lore available to leave out that aspect completely and base an MMO entirely on the frontier towns, gold rushes, settlers, lawmen, bandits, bounty hunters, thieves, and murderers. Fallen Earth (minus the mutation powers) already has that sort of feel, with a balance of melee, pistols, and rifles. The magnificent HBO series Deadwood could be a good template for developing characters (Al Swearengen never used a gun), especially since the Native Americans played almost no role in the main plot of the series...
Additionally, the genre need not limit itself to the American West, as there are quite few very good Australian films based on the same time period (see: The Proposition, for example). Even a bit of the 60's show Wild, Wild West or The Adventures of Brisco County Jr. might not be too outrageous (although alien orbs might be too much)
I would think it would necessarily be at least an open-world sort of thing, although FFA PvP would be a deal-breaker for many, the consequences in a settled area might be severe indeed and temper the frustration of new players. Incorporating historical figures might lend some more colour to the entire affair...the Earps, James Gang, the Cowboys, etc.
Make no mistake, despite the amateurish efforts mentioned previously and already undertaken, there will be a quality MMO that more faithfully adheres to the spirit and history of the West...eventually.
uh? What are you talking about?
TOR is a huge risk to spend that much into stories .. and they almost lost it all.
MOBA and 100% instanced games like WoT are such a big change .. now obviously all devs know it is a good idea, but that is a big risk.
Destiny .. totally junk the persistent world, or even common zone thing .. and do seamless matching. There are plenty of risk taking.
Bioware wasn't a huge risk. They took WoW and added Bioware's typically successful Dragon Age/Mass Effect type story.
MOBA are RTS Mods forming a genre. They were free mods. They became popular and developers monetized it. Its also not an MMORPG.
Destiny is not a MMORPG as far as I know. Its just a multiplayer game.
Of course TOR is a huge risk .. another 200M investment is.
You can take risk if you just follow the MMORPG formula and use old and tried ideas. By definition, taking risk is doing something different (like Destiny).
More gold!
Crips and Bloods in the wild west era.....
lolwut
I can say that for almost any RPG, action game, and shooters.
In fact, the last good wild west game i played is Call of Juarez (the recent one .. there are a few). It has interesting narrative mechanics, and the shooting action is not too shabby.
The OP raises a good question. I imagine it's a number of things #1 being the sheeple mentality of the gaming companies today. If someone hasn't already done a WoW-in the West that brought in gazilions no one wants to even think about doing one. What are they going to make their own version of, copy of? What's the model? I personally think HBO's DeadWood as model would be interesting. But really just how do you make a MMO in the Wild West? What kind of game mechanics do you use? Fantasy and Sci/Fi both give you obvious options on "re-spawning" after death, no such thing in the Wild West. Maybe you kind of get around it saying no the character doesn't die, just close and "wakes up" at the doc's place "It was close there son, we thought you were dead, but you pulled through!", although that gets kinda ridiculous after the 10th time... Course it doesn't have to be a combat centric game (now that would be something wouldn't it!). People in DeadWood weren't dying left and right, even though there was significant violence. Be something of a inovation to use serious violence, beaten up, cuts, non-leathal gun-shots, but not fatal as a game mechanic. Certainly more realistic. With good programing and graphics could make it work. Character gets more debilitated till it gets rest, recuperation, medical treatment. But anyway, to do the West right it would need to be different then what's the endless usual, it would require some innovation, and we all know there's no market for that today in crony-capitalist-merica!
It doesn't have to be mmo just we are on an mmo forum where moderator warnings state "stay on topic." :P
yes, but ..
a) the definition of MMO is up to debate and fuzzy ... so if LoL and WoT are MMOs according to some industry sites, online ARPGs are close enough, and
b) even this place is broadening to cover RPGs (this was discussed some time ago), and non-MMOs like D3, LoL, DDO are discussed here often, so I don't see a problem.
If D3 is close enough, Incredible Adv of Van Helsing is certainly close enough. And certainly if people don't know about it, it is a *good* thing for them to know and check out if they are interested in steampunk.