Let my own actions in the virtual world define whether or not I'm a hero, not some idiotic story. I don't want to be scripted; I want the NPCs and mobs to be scripted, with sufficient AI that they can adjust to my actions... not the other way around. Unfortunately, it's much easier to "script the player" than it is to script the NPCs.
There are two schools of thought for roleplaying. In one, you play a preordained role in a story. You go from point A to point B and you fight. Your roleplaying is pretty much limited to making minor choices about your character's development. Brainless people love that kind of roleplaying. In the other form of roleplaying, the story is developed on the fly about you. Developers hate that kind of roleplaying.
Developers play to the human ego and players have egos that are fragile enough that they CAN be played. That is the problem. Consider: as you go through the steps of a quest, can you really deviate from the preordained storyline? Nope. Can you fail? Nope. You just die and resurrect. Irrespective of phony dialog choices, nothing you do really makes a difference. If you fail a quest, you just redo it. You just move from point A to point B.
Sorry, I have a brain. I despise roleplaying on rails.
I see being special in a game as being the main character of the story you are (role)playing through. This can include a hero role, but certainly isn't limited to that or equivalent to it.
I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story. So PM me if you are starting one.
If the game had overreaching storyline about how I farm turnips every day and have to feed my sick grandparents, then one day it's game over because a dragon burned the house down and I died in my sleep, it won't be very fun.
Whether I'm a hero saving the world, or a turnip farmer, I'll need to be something more than average for the story to be interesting. I need to be special.
I'm quite capable and prefer to design characters with my own storyline. I really don't need campaigns developed by the company to establish value in my game characters but I also hate mechanics that remind me at every turn that I really don't matter in the game world. Nobody wants to be a doormat, in a game world or in the real world. If by not being a 'special snowflake' that gives others the right to treat me like a bag of shit? No, I don't think so.
I put down that I thought "it's absurd for everyone to be a hero" but what I really would have prefered is that "it's absurd for everyone to be THE hero." Assuming there's a reason, and a populous enough world lore-wise, everyone can potentially be a hero or adventurer and still have it make sense. Not everyone can save the world though.
The story in mmos could use some overhauling. It makes no sense to every player be that one hero who saves the world. Make the story revolve around the whole world, not the player character. That way we can be part of it, not its unique savior (that is part of single player stories).
Originally posted by rojo6934 The story in mmos could use some overhauling. It makes no sense to every player be that one hero who saves the world. Make the story revolve around the whole world, not the player character. That way we can be part of it, not its unique savior.
Yes .. with good scripted events and stories, and preferably in an instanced. And yes, i am describing a good SP game like Tomb Raider and Dishonored.
If a MMO can reproduce that effect, i will be more interested. Otherwise i don't have to play MMO.
Marvel Heroes is a good example ... you are the hero you chose to be. In fact, it will be a better game as a ARPG without seeing lots of spidermans running in the public zone, but since most gameplay is in instances, it works for me.
Trust me, I am a special little snowflake. I voted either/or. My idea of being special in an mmo is not being a hero but having items, skills, appearance that no one else does. No I don't pvp or buy from RMT's.
Some of the hero stuff may be ok, but usually it is like Rift, where you are the chosen savior or something, and it seems kind of silly that the npcs act like you are unique, but everyone running around is the savior also.
A dungeon adventurer should be heartier or more special maybe than a common person, but the savior...
I also notice a lot of stories that are tailored to limit starting areas to 1 per faction(not race). I know why, but I miss starting areas for almost every race, but I guess when levels go so quickly anymore, they don't see spending the time/money to do it.
I absolutely do need to be a special little snowflake - if I'm not the main event then screw it, I will move on. That's probably why I don't play many mmorpg's because I need to be the main event but dont have the time to put in to be the main event. I can't have a massive impact then I'm not interested. Give me challenge and keep the stakes high.
I did not read all the posts, but im sure some said this, you can only really be the hero in sp games. I am play infamous second son atm and in that game i really do feel like a hero.
Originally posted by laokoko "if you want to be a game designer, you should sell your house and fund your game. Since if you won't even fund your own game, no one will".
this is a really large thread so i didnt read it all but to add, its pretty much the fault of all media. instant gratification is empowerment, so every form of media tries to empower the end user.
attention/focus of attention is also empowering, so that is why every single thing in every single video game singularly focuses on your involvement. without instant feedback you dont have instant gratification.
i think the kind of game you are thinking about, since this is an mmo site, is actually the one genre where it doesnt hold up. mmos are a community based game, you join groups, guilds, dungeons and raids are a collective effort
there are also many games that havent had the main character be the focal point in the plot,
I can be ordinary and do ordinary things in real life. I (mostly) play games for the fantasy of being in situations very different from my own and enjoying the narrative of being larger-than-life. That said, there are some types of games where being average and having to compete against everyone else to distinguish yourself is awesome too. Games like SWG and Age of Wushu come to mind. Again, however, even in many of those games you're not always simply a peon-- you have some distinction over the NPCs and regular folk around the world. You're still the adventurers, the risk-taking traders and crafting moghuls, the bounty hunters and elite warriors.
I will be okay with not being awesome in an MMO when I see a game with free-form blacksmithing where I don't have an obligation to kill things to get anywhere. Anyone planning to make a comment about wang-swords be quiet, I want to have a moment here.
Personally, since I enjoy an actual MMORPG and not just a multi-user single player game, I think everyone should start out as just a random "person", and just go from there, if you become a hero, its because you did so, not just because its scripted into the game, but because you actually did something, worked for it, etc. That is how a real virtual world is built, not just some dumpy npc scripting where everyone is just a carbon copy of the "hero/savior" etc, that crap is for single player RPGs and consoles. Options, choices, working to actually accomplish something, elements that have disappeared from the genre.
A game where maybe you can be the hero if you want, or a soldier, or a peasent, or a bum, or just the guy who serves the drinks.
Originally posted by Trestero I will be okay with not being awesome in an MMO when I see a game with free-form blacksmithing where I don't have an obligation to kill things to get anywhere. Anyone planning to make a comment about wang-swords be quiet, I want to have a moment here.
Mortal Online.
It's got an unlimited trial and you can definitely get a feel for the weaponcrafting even with the trial's skill cap. Weaponsmiths specialize in different weapon styles, different base materials, and they can often craft you exactly what you want. They can name it for you, too.
There was one blacksmith that I handed a sword to and said "I want something like this but lighter and faster." He was able to tell me what parts and materials the sword was made from, how he could improve it and what the general price would be. By the end of the conversation I had a set of 10 'throwaway' swords that were cheap and brittle but very fast and high damage, and a set of 3 high quality swords that were as durable and high damage as he could make without sacrificing much speed. He managed to do both with the particular S-shaped hilt that I wanted as well.
Check out Mortal Online. Some really cool crafting there.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
If I want the world to revolve around ME, I'll make it so. No need for the game to guarantee it, where's the challenge in that ?
In pre-NGE SWG I made a "name" for myself by working very hard as a Master Chef to gather the best materials and spending countless hours experimenting with attribute combo's to produce special products for my customers. I earned my reputation and that made it something "special".
In todays MMO's, it's almost impossible to stand out from the mob. You can't excell at being a tank or a healer, for instance, because everyone's a tank/healer/DPS depending on the situation. So unless the game tells you you're awesome, nobody else will notice you in the zerg beating down that "dynamic world event" spawn...
Originally posted by strawhat0981 I did not read all the posts, but im sure some said this, you can only really be the hero in sp games. I am play infamous second son atm and in that game i really do feel like a hero.
You can do that in MMOs too with instances and phasing. TOR is doing that. Marvel Heroes is doing that. Heck, even Wow is doing that.
Titles have to make sense. In AO your got class ranks as you lvled up. So not really a title. But in newer games its just stupid to me. Titles and achievments are carried over for the console crowd. You never needed them in mmo's. And seeing a bunch of other players with the same title is really lame always made me laugh.
Comments
Let my own actions in the virtual world define whether or not I'm a hero, not some idiotic story. I don't want to be scripted; I want the NPCs and mobs to be scripted, with sufficient AI that they can adjust to my actions... not the other way around. Unfortunately, it's much easier to "script the player" than it is to script the NPCs.
There are two schools of thought for roleplaying. In one, you play a preordained role in a story. You go from point A to point B and you fight. Your roleplaying is pretty much limited to making minor choices about your character's development. Brainless people love that kind of roleplaying. In the other form of roleplaying, the story is developed on the fly about you. Developers hate that kind of roleplaying.
Developers play to the human ego and players have egos that are fragile enough that they CAN be played. That is the problem. Consider: as you go through the steps of a quest, can you really deviate from the preordained storyline? Nope. Can you fail? Nope. You just die and resurrect. Irrespective of phony dialog choices, nothing you do really makes a difference. If you fail a quest, you just redo it. You just move from point A to point B.
Sorry, I have a brain. I despise roleplaying on rails.
Wow...how one sided can a thread be?
You mean do i think my story should matter to me? Yes it should...if that's what they plan for me as a player.
This seems like more of the "STOP LIKING WHAT I DON'T LIKE!" crowd....
If the game had overreaching storyline about how I farm turnips every day and have to feed my sick grandparents, then one day it's game over because a dragon burned the house down and I died in my sleep, it won't be very fun.
Whether I'm a hero saving the world, or a turnip farmer, I'll need to be something more than average for the story to be interesting. I need to be special.
Over-react much? Its not like I'm throwing an election, I'm just asking if people need to be 'the' hero in mmo's.
I agree entirely.
MMO news flash:
I dont want to be a Hero in an MMO, I dont want new next-gen combat mechanics, I dont want to survive.
I WANT TO BUILD SHIT
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Yes .. with good scripted events and stories, and preferably in an instanced. And yes, i am describing a good SP game like Tomb Raider and Dishonored.
If a MMO can reproduce that effect, i will be more interested. Otherwise i don't have to play MMO.
Marvel Heroes is a good example ... you are the hero you chose to be. In fact, it will be a better game as a ARPG without seeing lots of spidermans running in the public zone, but since most gameplay is in instances, it works for me.
Thanks. That was an interesting opinion.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
Some of the hero stuff may be ok, but usually it is like Rift, where you are the chosen savior or something, and it seems kind of silly that the npcs act like you are unique, but everyone running around is the savior also.
A dungeon adventurer should be heartier or more special maybe than a common person, but the savior...
I also notice a lot of stories that are tailored to limit starting areas to 1 per faction(not race). I know why, but I miss starting areas for almost every race, but I guess when levels go so quickly anymore, they don't see spending the time/money to do it.
Originally posted by laokoko
"if you want to be a game designer, you should sell your house and fund your game. Since if you won't even fund your own game, no one will".
this is a really large thread so i didnt read it all but to add, its pretty much the fault of all media. instant gratification is empowerment, so every form of media tries to empower the end user.
attention/focus of attention is also empowering, so that is why every single thing in every single video game singularly focuses on your involvement. without instant feedback you dont have instant gratification.
i think the kind of game you are thinking about, since this is an mmo site, is actually the one genre where it doesnt hold up. mmos are a community based game, you join groups, guilds, dungeons and raids are a collective effort
there are also many games that havent had the main character be the focal point in the plot,
Personally, since I enjoy an actual MMORPG and not just a multi-user single player game, I think everyone should start out as just a random "person", and just go from there, if you become a hero, its because you did so, not just because its scripted into the game, but because you actually did something, worked for it, etc. That is how a real virtual world is built, not just some dumpy npc scripting where everyone is just a carbon copy of the "hero/savior" etc, that crap is for single player RPGs and consoles. Options, choices, working to actually accomplish something, elements that have disappeared from the genre.
A game where maybe you can be the hero if you want, or a soldier, or a peasent, or a bum, or just the guy who serves the drinks.
~I am Many~
Mortal Online.
It's got an unlimited trial and you can definitely get a feel for the weaponcrafting even with the trial's skill cap. Weaponsmiths specialize in different weapon styles, different base materials, and they can often craft you exactly what you want. They can name it for you, too.
There was one blacksmith that I handed a sword to and said "I want something like this but lighter and faster." He was able to tell me what parts and materials the sword was made from, how he could improve it and what the general price would be. By the end of the conversation I had a set of 10 'throwaway' swords that were cheap and brittle but very fast and high damage, and a set of 3 high quality swords that were as durable and high damage as he could make without sacrificing much speed. He managed to do both with the particular S-shaped hilt that I wanted as well.
Check out Mortal Online. Some really cool crafting there.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
If I want the world to revolve around ME, I'll make it so. No need for the game to guarantee it, where's the challenge in that ?
In pre-NGE SWG I made a "name" for myself by working very hard as a Master Chef to gather the best materials and spending countless hours experimenting with attribute combo's to produce special products for my customers. I earned my reputation and that made it something "special".
In todays MMO's, it's almost impossible to stand out from the mob. You can't excell at being a tank or a healer, for instance, because everyone's a tank/healer/DPS depending on the situation. So unless the game tells you you're awesome, nobody else will notice you in the zerg beating down that "dynamic world event" spawn...
You can do that in MMOs too with instances and phasing. TOR is doing that. Marvel Heroes is doing that. Heck, even Wow is doing that.
Sounds very boring to me.