No offense, but you just described a chat room with the "game" being merely the side distraction that drives it.
OMG, an MMO that involves dealing with other players! The horror!
I forget that the mass of gamers seem to have some sort of ADHD and need to be constantly bombared with messages and quests and shiny lights and explosions and ting tings as their swords clash and hell no will they stop pressing buttons long enough to talk to someone, there's more shiny ting tings to see and quests to complete!
See, now you're quoting me out of context. I never said that we should not have to deal with other players in MMO's. I am merely pointing out that the genre has evolved and players now days expect more from a game than just a simulation chat room.
Heavy socializing is good ... but there is technology out there today that does that much better than an MMO.
The game you are looking for requiring no PvE completion and where you can just jump in and start mindlessly shooting at people is that way - >>>>
... it's called an FPS.
Quit ruining the MMORPG genre with your constant "PvE grind" whines.
Are you being subjective when you say that there's an audience for this kind of games when all previous attempts have failed, making it obvious that the supposed audience is much (much!) smaller than you are thinking, and most likely not viable for a quality MMORPG?
1. what previous attempts are you speaking about?
Yeah, please do tell, if there was anything like original EverQuest released over the years I'm sure I would have spotted it. And please don't say Final Fantasy, I'd rather stick a red hot poker in my eyes than play anything related to Final Fantasy.
Are you being subjective when you say that there's an audience for this kind of games when all previous attempts have failed, making it obvious that the supposed audience is much (much!) smaller than you are thinking, and most likely not viable for a quality MMORPG?
1. what previous attempts are you speaking about?
Yeah, please do tell, if there was anything like original EverQuest released over the years I'm sure I would have spotted it. And please don't say Final Fantasy, I'd rather stick a red hot poker in my eyes than play anything related to Final Fantasy.
The original EQ is still available, and its free to play.
The game you are looking for requiring no PvE completion and where you can just jump in and start mindlessly shooting at people is that way - >>>>
... it's called an FPS.
Quit ruining the MMORPG genre with your constant "PvE grind" whines.
This from a thread discussing the wonders of no quests, and going back to a time when players camped for hours in the same place, waiting for the same mob to spawn over and over, just so that a puller could pull it to the camp and kill the same mob over and over for hours on end?
Irony at its finest.
I can see what you're saying, but I disagree that the EQ style was somehow worse than the quest grind. The difference I see is that with the quest grind it's like completing little parts of the game, one after the other. Congratulations, you collected 20 pelts. Thwack, fzzzt, boom! Congratulations, you defeated 20 boars. And on and on and on. I find it quite jarring, it breaks up the flow of the gameplay and turns it into a quest for little achievements. It's like climbing steps one after the other, very noticable steps.
In EQ, you could sit in a spot for hours, chatting the day away, casually blowing up mobs with your wizard spells, watching the sun rise and fall, conversation would flow from one topic to the next, there'd be laughs and danger. And then suddenly, "DING!", level up. It was usually so loud you'd get a fright from it. And that's the thing, you were rarely watching the XP bar, you weren't jumping from place to place playing a game of Pokemon 'Gotta catch them all'. It was just relaxed and fun and then you'd level and it'd be like, "Oh cool, I leveled, didn't even realise I was close.".
So it's two different styles. The jump, jump, jump, constantly moving and completing pointless quest after quest. And theres the relaxed bashing while enjoying the company of your companions and hey, you'll probably level from it sooner or later.
I think the problem is a fundamental difference in temperament. For me grinding the same content over and over is not relaxing. In fact I find it quite depressing. It tends to make me irritable and anti-social.
I need the challenge of changing content where I have to constantly apply my problem solving skills to different problems. It makes my brain fire in all different directions and I am extremely relaxed and socialable.
My main problem with quests is that they tend to devolve into a quest grind which IMO defeats the entire purpose of having quests. Quests need to be way more varied and always try to find new ways to challenge your problem solving skills.
I play MMORPGs for the variety of tasks and the multitude of problem solving challenges. Repetitive grinding is the opposite of this and turns me into a brainless zombie that is just not fun to be around.
See, now you're quoting me out of context. I never said that we should not have to deal with other players in MMO's. I am merely pointing out that the genre has evolved and players now days expect more from a game than just a simulation chat room.
Heavy socializing is good ... but there is technology out there today that does that much better than an MMO.
It might have evolved, but not in a good way. Original EverQuest was not an easy game, but sometimes you got into that flow and you could literally spend hours relaxing through the content. In other areas, one missed Mez and the Cleric would be taking a beating, extra mobs would be running about and panic would ensue. And that could happen during those moments of calm too, I distinctly remember a time in Old Sebillis where we were fine for a couple of hours, then things went crazy and though we managed to survive the encounter, everyone was out of mana, people were down to their last few hitpoints, and we had a dead cleric who had to take a res from the Paladin in the group.
You could never truly relax in EverQuest, but you could certainly get into that flow, where all the classes in the group worked in perfect harmony and made things seem so much easier.
The original EQ is still available, and its free to play.
It really isn't. Original EQ died long ago, before it went F2P. I actually tried it recently and where you used to take months to get to level 40, I was there in about 8 hours. And while it used to be pretty much impossible to solo, especially with some classes, I soloed all the way up to 40 thanks to overpowered equipment that max'd all my stats and cleric mercenaries that meant I was never in any danger.
The game is far from what it used to be, I can certainly see why EQ2 was such a flop if the developers had a hand in what became of original EQ.
Do you really go by the dogmatic view that 10s of millions of MMORPG players only like WoW Clones? Why would majority of MMORPG players have a demand for something they've never tried?
Nope, I go by the view that most MMO players including those like me who are veterans of the genre and played all those old games don't want that tedious, boring, and broken gameplay to come back.
As I said, if that was a recipe for success, it would already have been done. Yet all attempts so far failed so badly it's not even funny.
What game are you referring to? The only two I can think of is vanguard and the kickstart failure by a guy that is viewedc a screw up by the EQ1 crowd.
I am not one for EQ1 because I like Sandboxes and not grinding mobs or quest. But I do think a game like EQ1 with modern graphics, UI would have an audience. Likely the typical 250kish range but that's what most MMORPG's are pulling. Why is it ok to make a themepark that pulls in 250k vs. something different? I don't get the logic.
Why is it ok to make a themepark that pulls in 250k vs. something different? I don't get the logic.
It'd probably be cheaper to make too as you don't have to spend a ridiculous amount of time and effort writing 100,000 quests that are all pretty much, "Go kill 10 bears.".
Do you really go by the dogmatic view that 10s of millions of MMORPG players only like WoW Clones? Why would majority of MMORPG players have a demand for something they've never tried?
Nope, I go by the view that most MMO players including those like me who are veterans of the genre and played all those old games don't want that tedious, boring, and broken gameplay to come back.
As I said, if that was a recipe for success, it would already have been done. Yet all attempts so far failed so badly it's not even funny.
are you being subjective when you say 'broken'?
Are you being subjective when you say that there's an audience for this kind of games when all previous attempts have failed, making it obvious that the supposed audience is much (much!) smaller than you are thinking, and most likely not viable for a quality MMORPG?
1. what previous attempts are you speaking about?
I'll quote two for your pleasure, Vanguard and Pantheon. Both intending to be modern EQ1, both utterly failed. And yes, Final Fantasy was also an attempt, and also failed. The old "forced to group, boring grind, have to spend half your time searching for a group" model is dead, and nobody except a few really want to go back to that. People want to log in and PLAY and not log in and WAIT.
2. I am playing WURM right now a game where most people would not like however he has been in business for 10 years. There is a demand. It doesnt have to be music on the top 40 in order for there to be a demand.
Don't tell me Wurm's quality is what you would want for a modern EQ, because then you may as well go back and play the actual EQ1, which looks much better than Wurm.
3. I am suggesting different games for different people, you are suggesting games are either working or broken. If you dont like it you dont say you dont like it you say its broken. that is being about as subjective as my a$$
I'm suggesting that to get quality (aka "modern") games, you need enough people playing it to pay for it. I'm using common sense, you're using your memories of an old game. And you quoting Wurm only proves me right... otherwise, why would you want a better EQ? You'd be happy playing Wurm. But that game is a poorly designed pile of bad code. Making good games requires money, specially when it's a MMORPG.
1. I can only speak to Vanguard. As expected,basically what happened there was a game that was managed and funded by a company that is disconnected from gaming and has stock holders to appease and in so doing they royally anal f8ck that game in everyway humanly possible. Nothing more, nothing less.
2. You still fail to understand. Please read carefully. Different people like different things, because you dont like it doesnt mean its broken. I dont want WURM to be EQ1 because I dont want to play EQ1. I was using WURM as an example of how you can please many people but not everyone and still come out good. F*ck me is it really that hard to understand?
3. Somewhat true however did you know that the cost of ADVERTISING budget is higher than the development budget on AAA games? I will just let you ponder that for a bit before diving into much more detail.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Are you being subjective when you say that there's an audience for this kind of games when all previous attempts have failed, making it obvious that the supposed audience is much (much!) smaller than you are thinking, and most likely not viable for a quality MMORPG?
1. what previous attempts are you speaking about?
Yeah, please do tell, if there was anything like original EverQuest released over the years I'm sure I would have spotted it. And please don't say Final Fantasy, I'd rather stick a red hot poker in my eyes than play anything related to Final Fantasy.
The original EQ is still available, and its free to play.
and Final Fantasy MMO's are current and successful in all the ways that EQ, both original and the other one, never were. MMO developers try to make games for the largest 'denominator' possible, or at least for a clearly defined, if profitable, niche. But your right, Final Fantasy is not Everquest, and much as i really enjoyed playing the original Everquest, and did so for years, if i had to choose between the 2, as tough as that would be, i would choose Final Fantasy. Yes the original EQ is still available and F2P, and the nostalgia factor of playing my old toons was immense, and very short lived, i hated the graphics and so much had changed it was barely recogniseable and i totally hated it, which really annoyed me because for a long time it was my favourite game.
No offense, but you just described a chat room with the "game" being merely the side distraction that drives it.
OMG, an MMO that involves dealing with other players! The horror!
I forget that the mass of gamers seem to have some sort of ADHD and need to be constantly bombared with messages and quests and shiny lights and explosions and ting tings as their swords clash and hell no will they stop pressing buttons long enough to talk to someone, there's more shiny ting tings to see and quests to complete!
hmm if i want to talk to someone, i use a chatroom, not a game.
And if you cannot treat people like NPCs in MMOs, you don't think they will be so successful, do you?
See, now you're quoting me out of context. I never said that we should not have to deal with other players in MMO's. I am merely pointing out that the genre has evolved and players now days expect more from a game than just a simulation chat room.
Heavy socializing is good ... but there is technology out there today that does that much better than an MMO.
It might have evolved, but not in a good way. Original EverQuest was not an easy game, but sometimes you got into that flow and you could literally spend hours relaxing through the content. In other areas, one missed Mez and the Cleric would be taking a beating, extra mobs would be running about and panic would ensue. And that could happen during those moments of calm too, I distinctly remember a time in Old Sebillis where we were fine for a couple of hours, then things went crazy and though we managed to survive the encounter, everyone was out of mana, people were down to their last few hitpoints, and we had a dead cleric who had to take a res from the Paladin in the group.
You could never truly relax in EverQuest, but you could certainly get into that flow, where all the classes in the group worked in perfect harmony and made things seem so much easier.
I understand the appeal. I am sure we all can reminisce and remember those fond moments. But that's exactly what we tend to do when we reminisce. I am sure if you think hard enough you can also come up with not so very fond moments such as the previously mentioned waiting long periods of time to find a group. And how about the sometimes long travel to those camping spots only to find they were taken. How about finally finding that camping spot only to have your healer or tank log off and not being able to find another. How about finally finding a healer or tank, and that healer or tank being so annoying, or bossy or just complete Jack*ffs but you waited an hour for a healer or tank so you'd just have to put up with him or her. And I'm sure we could think about many more. But we reminisce about the good ol' days and we forget about the inconveniences. Reminiscing is a wonderful thing.
The game you are looking for requiring no PvE completion and where you can just jump in and start mindlessly shooting at people is that way - >>>>
... it's called an FPS.
Quit ruining the MMORPG genre with your constant "PvE grind" whines.
Originally posted by GiffenMMO's NEED downtime during group fights to create the opportunity for social interaction that creates the glue that keeps people subscribed for years on end. EQ1 had the formula perfect.
Until competitors figure out down-time is boring to many, and there is a bigger audience who want to play the game, instead of chatting with people.
But does it make sense to go after a target audience that already has 20 or so perfectly sound options?
Why not go after the target audience that doesn't have options. No one has made a game like EQ.
It depends on the size of the target audience and whether they game hop. There are plenty of shooters, and devs are still making more, why? It is because there is a large audience, and each player play multiple shooters, one after another.
It makes a lot more sense than making a game with a smaller niche audience that even if everyone jump to your game, you won't make much money.
It is all in the numbers. In fact, if the market does not provide, it probably means the audience is too niche.
See, now you're quoting me out of context. I never said that we should not have to deal with other players in MMO's. I am merely pointing out that the genre has evolved and players now days expect more from a game than just a simulation chat room.
Heavy socializing is good ... but there is technology out there today that does that much better than an MMO.
It might have evolved, but not in a good way. Original EverQuest was not an easy game, but sometimes you got into that flow and you could literally spend hours relaxing through the content. In other areas, one missed Mez and the Cleric would be taking a beating, extra mobs would be running about and panic would ensue. And that could happen during those moments of calm too, I distinctly remember a time in Old Sebillis where we were fine for a couple of hours, then things went crazy and though we managed to survive the encounter, everyone was out of mana, people were down to their last few hitpoints, and we had a dead cleric who had to take a res from the Paladin in the group.
You could never truly relax in EverQuest, but you could certainly get into that flow, where all the classes in the group worked in perfect harmony and made things seem so much easier.
I understand the appeal. I am sure we all can reminisce and remember those fond moments. But that's exactly what we tend to do when we reminisce. I am sure if you think hard enough you can also come up with not so very fond moments such as the previously mentioned waiting long periods of time to find a group. And how about the sometimes long travel to those camping spots only to find they were taken. How about finally finding that camping spot only to have your healer or tank log off and not being able to find another. How about finally finding a healer or tank, and that healer or tank being so annoying, or bossy or just complete Jack*ffs but you waited an hour for a healer or tank so you'd just have to put up with him or her. And I'm sure we could think about many more. But we reminisce about the good ol' days and we forget about the inconveniences. Reminiscing is a wonderful thing.
speaking from experience as an old man the idea of reminisce makes all things in the past better is greatly exarrgerate although does have some truth to it but not as much as people think.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Originally posted by redbug People don't remember all the down time that the original EQ had. The holy trinity is dead due to downtime, sad but true. No one is going to want to play a warrior who can't solo a rat while LFG. Graphics didn't kill EQ, gameplay did. After PoP, you either raided or went to WoW. Lack of PvP for PVE downtime didn't help matters either. Does anyone here remember how freaking hard it was to get to some of the camps where people were grinding XP? Sure some classes didn't have issues getting places but I played a cleric for pretty much the first 5 expansions and I remember some pretty bad runs. When PoP released druids and wizards were pissed due to losing port money, others were pissed because they said it made the world feel smaller. They obviously were not playing a cleric or warrior. Tons of reasons I don't want the original EQ with better graphics and more than a few reasons why it wouldn't get 500k subs.
I have pretty much the opposite view. I do remember the downtime, and believe it is important. It encouraged, among other things, resource management and actually talking to your fellow players.
I disagreed with the Ports obtained via the PoK. I did not play a druid or a wizard, I simply did not want my world to feel smaller. It was a point of pride that I could run from Halas to Akanon to Vex Thal without ever looking at a map. Running to camps: Pretty much a non-issue for a skilled player. Buy an invis potion, a SoW potion, and learn where the trouble spots are.
If I could have EQ remade any way I wished, gameplay, pace, and characters design would not change. All I would ask for is improved graphics, optimization, and a seamless world. There is no reason for open world zones in a modern MMO, though they do have a place for certain types of instanced content.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
Why is it ok to make a themepark that pulls in 250k vs. something different? I don't get the logic.
It'd probably be cheaper to make too as you don't have to spend a ridiculous amount of time and effort writing 100,000 quests that are all pretty much, "Go kill 10 bears.".
So much irony in this thread.
You do realize that when you camp for hours killing the same crab you are not only killing 10 crabs ... you' are killing hundreds? The only difference is that in one you were directed to do so and in the other you "volunteered" to do so.
/smh
The game you are looking for requiring no PvE completion and where you can just jump in and start mindlessly shooting at people is that way - >>>>
... it's called an FPS.
Quit ruining the MMORPG genre with your constant "PvE grind" whines.
Do you really go by the dogmatic view that 10s of millions of MMORPG players only like WoW Clones? Why would majority of MMORPG players have a demand for something they've never tried?
Nope, I go by the view that most MMO players including those like me who are veterans of the genre and played all those old games don't want that tedious, boring, and broken gameplay to come back.
As I said, if that was a recipe for success, it would already have been done. Yet all attempts so far failed so badly it's not even funny.
What game are you referring to? The only two I can think of is vanguard and the kickstart failure by a guy that is viewedc a screw up by the EQ1 crowd.
I am not one for EQ1 because I like Sandboxes and not grinding mobs or quest. But I do think a game like EQ1 with modern graphics, UI would have an audience. Likely the typical 250kish range but that's what most MMORPG's are pulling. Why is it ok to make a themepark that pulls in 250k vs. something different? I don't get the logic.
Oh yeah, I'm sure that among the 550k (max) players that went for EQ back then, when you had only a couple of MMOs on the market, over 250k would simply go back for the same game with just better graphics. Err wait... miscalculation error here, nowadays we don't have just a couple of MMOs, we have dozens of them, and people know better too.
The only reason why EQ got so much success despite its "Evercrack" grind side is because it was one of the big "three", and there was no contender back then. EQ started to lose players as soon as other games with better gameplay and less demanding play styles appeared.
so now we are going back to the supply argument that some people take issue with me on. That position being, if a gamer doesnt know something exists how does he know he doesnt like it? additionally, if a gamer has issue with a game but has no other option will he stop being a gamer completely?
I use this point a lot to suggest AAAs dont have a clue what they are doing.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Why is it ok to make a themepark that pulls in 250k vs. something different? I don't get the logic.
It'd probably be cheaper to make too as you don't have to spend a ridiculous amount of time and effort writing 100,000 quests that are all pretty much, "Go kill 10 bears.".
So much irony in this thread.
You do realize that when you camp for hours killing the same crab you are not only killing 10 crabs ... you' are killing hundreds? The only difference is that in one you were directed to do so and in the other you "volunteered" to do so.
/smh
Yeah, who doesn't remember those "good old times". You spent 30+ minutes (generous here) just to find a group, and that was if you were one of the "appropriate" classes. Then you proceeded to a mob camp corresponding to your level, praying that it's not already taken by some other group. Then you started mindless killing, hoping that during those hours of grinding, none of the group would fall asleep out of boredom, make your wipe, and therefore make you lose all of your daily progressing.
Yeah, that was so much fun. Can't wait to go back to that kind of gameplay. Or maybe I'll just go and pay someone to use a bullwhip on me, the pain will be sharper but also shorter and at least maybe make me feel something other than pure boredom.
/Laughs
The only game that I reminisce about is vanilla SWG. That was a great time. They simply don't make games like that anymore. Vanilla SWG would be a classic if it were around today.
The game you are looking for requiring no PvE completion and where you can just jump in and start mindlessly shooting at people is that way - >>>>
... it's called an FPS.
Quit ruining the MMORPG genre with your constant "PvE grind" whines.
Yeah, that was so much fun. Can't wait to go back to that kind of gameplay. Or maybe I'll just go and pay someone to use a bullwhip on me, the pain will be sharper but also shorter and at least maybe make me feel something other than pure boredom.
Don't worry. I doubt any dev is insane enough to ever try to use that kind of boredom-inducing mechanics.
There are plenty of fun games to choose from today.
Do you really go by the dogmatic view that 10s of millions of MMORPG players only like WoW Clones? Why would majority of MMORPG players have a demand for something they've never tried?
Nope, I go by the view that most MMO players including those like me who are veterans of the genre and played all those old games don't want that tedious, boring, and broken gameplay to come back.
As I said, if that was a recipe for success, it would already have been done. Yet all attempts so far failed so badly it's not even funny.
What game are you referring to? The only two I can think of is vanguard and the kickstart failure by a guy that is viewedc a screw up by the EQ1 crowd.
I am not one for EQ1 because I like Sandboxes and not grinding mobs or quest. But I do think a game like EQ1 with modern graphics, UI would have an audience. Likely the typical 250kish range but that's what most MMORPG's are pulling. Why is it ok to make a themepark that pulls in 250k vs. something different? I don't get the logic.
Oh yeah, I'm sure that among the 550k (max) players that went for EQ back then, when you had only a couple of MMOs on the market, over 250k would simply go back for the same game with just better graphics. Err wait... miscalculation error here, nowadays we don't have just a couple of MMOs, we have dozens of them, and people know better too.
The only reason why EQ got so much success despite its "Evercrack" grind side is because it was one of the big "three", and there was no contender back then. EQ started to lose players as soon as other games with better gameplay and less demanding play styles appeared.
An exact copy wouldn't hold up because the content has been done. If you made a game with modern playability, new content that managed to catch the magic and was "good" MMORPG it would easily IMO. This is all opinion until someone makes the MMORPG
Everquest was a vastly dated game released on the cusp of 3d gaming. WoW essentially was 30x more playable, better graphics and new quest hub system. It was huge step over any other game in the genre in those regards. It was targeted at EQ players. It's like being surprised that a PS1 level game lost customers to a similar but better game on PS3.
does anyone else find the irony in that those two phrases together?
Yeah, a post makes some annoying points, just take out a few words of two sentences out of it, and reassemble them in a way totally unrelated to the original meaning but serving your agenda.
Typical.
Not to mention that coming from the person who called most people "morons", that post is highly ironic.
I think that given the entire genre of fantasy based MMOs comes from nerds and EQ is evidence enough that there is demand.
As I have said before its not an all or nothing game. Its not everyone has to like it or it will fail forumla. I
Nope, you're wrong. The genre of fantasy-based MMOs *CAME* from nerds, back in the days when the only people who had access to high speed Internet and computers that could run the games were nerds. That time is long gone, it went away at the time of WoW, when broadband went mainstream and online gaming did too. Now, fantasy-based MMOs have nothing to do with nerds, nerds make up a minuscule percentage of people playing online games and the fact that everyone moved beyond EQ is proof that what appealed to nerds, back in the day, is not what appeals to the gaming masses of today.
If there was significant demand for these games, they'd be made already and they'd be financially successful. That they are not, with the market research that these developers do, proves that there isn't significant demand.
does anyone else find the irony in that those two phrases together?
Yeah, a post makes some annoying points, just take out a few words of two sentences out of it, and reassemble them in a way totally unrelated to the original meaning but serving your agenda.
Typical.
Not to mention that coming from the person who called most people "morons", that post is highly ironic.
I think that given the entire genre of fantasy based MMOs comes from nerds and EQ is evidence enough that there is demand.
As I have said before its not an all or nothing game. Its not everyone has to like it or it will fail forumla. I
Nope, you're wrong. The genre of fantasy-based MMOs *CAME* from nerds, back in the days when the only people who had access to high speed Internet and computers that could run the games were nerds. That time is long gone, it went away at the time of WoW, when broadband went mainstream and online gaming did too. Now, fantasy-based MMOs have nothing to do with nerds, nerds make up a minuscule percentage of people playing online games and the fact that everyone moved beyond EQ is proof that what appealed to nerds, back in the day, is not what appeals to the gaming masses of today.
If there was significant demand for these games, they'd be made already and they'd be financially successful. That they are not, with the market research that these developers do, proves that there isn't significant demand.
so you are taking the position that although the genre of fantasy based MMO was created by nerds and has lasted many decades that there is not any demand of it.
maybe the AAA have their head up their ass?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
does anyone else find the irony in that those two phrases together?
Yeah, a post makes some annoying points, just take out a few words of two sentences out of it, and reassemble them in a way totally unrelated to the original meaning but serving your agenda.
Typical.
Not to mention that coming from the person who called most people "morons", that post is highly ironic.
I think that given the entire genre of fantasy based MMOs comes from nerds and EQ is evidence enough that there is demand.
As I have said before its not an all or nothing game. Its not everyone has to like it or it will fail forumla. I
Nope, you're wrong. The genre of fantasy-based MMOs *CAME* from nerds, back in the days when the only people who had access to high speed Internet and computers that could run the games were nerds. That time is long gone, it went away at the time of WoW, when broadband went mainstream and online gaming did too. Now, fantasy-based MMOs have nothing to do with nerds, nerds make up a minuscule percentage of people playing online games and the fact that everyone moved beyond EQ is proof that what appealed to nerds, back in the day, is not what appeals to the gaming masses of today.
If there was significant demand for these games, they'd be made already and they'd be financially successful. That they are not, with the market research that these developers do, proves that there isn't significant demand.
so you are taking the position that although the genre of fantasy based MMO was created by nerds and has lasted many decades that there is not any demand of it.
maybe the AAA have their head up their ass?
The kind of fantasy MMOs that existed back in the day? No, there isn't a significant demand for it. UO, EQ, DAoC, there aren't enough people who want those kinds of games to make it financially viable for developers to bother with. You're arguing a fallacious position. Just because the fantasy genre is still around, that doesn't mean people want to play old-school MMOs, any more than just because the Lord of the Rings movies were popular with a mainstream audience, that means everyone is clamoring to read arcane fantasy novels.
so you are taking the position that although the genre of fantasy based MMO was created by nerds and has lasted many decades that there is not any demand of it.
Not enough demand compared to other stuff.
You are confused between "long term demand" vs "large enough demand".
So what if you have 10 people who really like this stuff since the beginning of time. So what if there is a old but small demand?
Why would AAA devs pay attention to an ancient small group of people when they can pay attention to 100000 times more?
Comments
See, now you're quoting me out of context. I never said that we should not have to deal with other players in MMO's. I am merely pointing out that the genre has evolved and players now days expect more from a game than just a simulation chat room.
Heavy socializing is good ... but there is technology out there today that does that much better than an MMO.
The game you are looking for requiring no PvE completion and where you can just jump in and start mindlessly shooting at people is that way - >>>>
... it's called an FPS.
Quit ruining the MMORPG genre with your constant "PvE grind" whines.
Yeah, please do tell, if there was anything like original EverQuest released over the years I'm sure I would have spotted it. And please don't say Final Fantasy, I'd rather stick a red hot poker in my eyes than play anything related to Final Fantasy.
The original EQ is still available, and its free to play.
The game you are looking for requiring no PvE completion and where you can just jump in and start mindlessly shooting at people is that way - >>>>
... it's called an FPS.
Quit ruining the MMORPG genre with your constant "PvE grind" whines.
I think the problem is a fundamental difference in temperament. For me grinding the same content over and over is not relaxing. In fact I find it quite depressing. It tends to make me irritable and anti-social.
I need the challenge of changing content where I have to constantly apply my problem solving skills to different problems. It makes my brain fire in all different directions and I am extremely relaxed and socialable.
My main problem with quests is that they tend to devolve into a quest grind which IMO defeats the entire purpose of having quests. Quests need to be way more varied and always try to find new ways to challenge your problem solving skills.
I play MMORPGs for the variety of tasks and the multitude of problem solving challenges. Repetitive grinding is the opposite of this and turns me into a brainless zombie that is just not fun to be around.
It might have evolved, but not in a good way. Original EverQuest was not an easy game, but sometimes you got into that flow and you could literally spend hours relaxing through the content. In other areas, one missed Mez and the Cleric would be taking a beating, extra mobs would be running about and panic would ensue. And that could happen during those moments of calm too, I distinctly remember a time in Old Sebillis where we were fine for a couple of hours, then things went crazy and though we managed to survive the encounter, everyone was out of mana, people were down to their last few hitpoints, and we had a dead cleric who had to take a res from the Paladin in the group.
You could never truly relax in EverQuest, but you could certainly get into that flow, where all the classes in the group worked in perfect harmony and made things seem so much easier.
It really isn't. Original EQ died long ago, before it went F2P. I actually tried it recently and where you used to take months to get to level 40, I was there in about 8 hours. And while it used to be pretty much impossible to solo, especially with some classes, I soloed all the way up to 40 thanks to overpowered equipment that max'd all my stats and cleric mercenaries that meant I was never in any danger.
The game is far from what it used to be, I can certainly see why EQ2 was such a flop if the developers had a hand in what became of original EQ.
What game are you referring to? The only two I can think of is vanguard and the kickstart failure by a guy that is viewedc a screw up by the EQ1 crowd.
I am not one for EQ1 because I like Sandboxes and not grinding mobs or quest. But I do think a game like EQ1 with modern graphics, UI would have an audience. Likely the typical 250kish range but that's what most MMORPG's are pulling. Why is it ok to make a themepark that pulls in 250k vs. something different? I don't get the logic.
if length of time in the market is the tell of success then that means Wurm Online is more successful the Elder Scrolls.
I think developers know there is a time when players want to move on.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
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It'd probably be cheaper to make too as you don't have to spend a ridiculous amount of time and effort writing 100,000 quests that are all pretty much, "Go kill 10 bears.".
1. I can only speak to Vanguard. As expected,basically what happened there was a game that was managed and funded by a company that is disconnected from gaming and has stock holders to appease and in so doing they royally anal f8ck that game in everyway humanly possible. Nothing more, nothing less.
2. You still fail to understand. Please read carefully. Different people like different things, because you dont like it doesnt mean its broken. I dont want WURM to be EQ1 because I dont want to play EQ1. I was using WURM as an example of how you can please many people but not everyone and still come out good. F*ck me is it really that hard to understand?
3. Somewhat true however did you know that the cost of ADVERTISING budget is higher than the development budget on AAA games? I will just let you ponder that for a bit before diving into much more detail.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
and Final Fantasy MMO's are current and successful in all the ways that EQ, both original and the other one, never were. MMO developers try to make games for the largest 'denominator' possible, or at least for a clearly defined, if profitable, niche. But your right, Final Fantasy is not Everquest, and much as i really enjoyed playing the original Everquest, and did so for years, if i had to choose between the 2, as tough as that would be, i would choose Final Fantasy. Yes the original EQ is still available and F2P, and the nostalgia factor of playing my old toons was immense, and very short lived, i hated the graphics and so much had changed it was barely recogniseable and i totally hated it, which really annoyed me because for a long time it was my favourite game.
hmm if i want to talk to someone, i use a chatroom, not a game.
And if you cannot treat people like NPCs in MMOs, you don't think they will be so successful, do you?
I understand the appeal. I am sure we all can reminisce and remember those fond moments. But that's exactly what we tend to do when we reminisce. I am sure if you think hard enough you can also come up with not so very fond moments such as the previously mentioned waiting long periods of time to find a group. And how about the sometimes long travel to those camping spots only to find they were taken. How about finally finding that camping spot only to have your healer or tank log off and not being able to find another. How about finally finding a healer or tank, and that healer or tank being so annoying, or bossy or just complete Jack*ffs but you waited an hour for a healer or tank so you'd just have to put up with him or her. And I'm sure we could think about many more. But we reminisce about the good ol' days and we forget about the inconveniences. Reminiscing is a wonderful thing.
The game you are looking for requiring no PvE completion and where you can just jump in and start mindlessly shooting at people is that way - >>>>
... it's called an FPS.
Quit ruining the MMORPG genre with your constant "PvE grind" whines.
It depends on the size of the target audience and whether they game hop. There are plenty of shooters, and devs are still making more, why? It is because there is a large audience, and each player play multiple shooters, one after another.
It makes a lot more sense than making a game with a smaller niche audience that even if everyone jump to your game, you won't make much money.
It is all in the numbers. In fact, if the market does not provide, it probably means the audience is too niche.
speaking from experience as an old man the idea of reminisce makes all things in the past better is greatly exarrgerate although does have some truth to it but not as much as people think.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I have pretty much the opposite view. I do remember the downtime, and believe it is important. It encouraged, among other things, resource management and actually talking to your fellow players.
I disagreed with the Ports obtained via the PoK. I did not play a druid or a wizard, I simply did not want my world to feel smaller. It was a point of pride that I could run from Halas to Akanon to Vex Thal without ever looking at a map. Running to camps: Pretty much a non-issue for a skilled player. Buy an invis potion, a SoW potion, and learn where the trouble spots are.
If I could have EQ remade any way I wished, gameplay, pace, and characters design would not change. All I would ask for is improved graphics, optimization, and a seamless world. There is no reason for open world zones in a modern MMO, though they do have a place for certain types of instanced content.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
So much irony in this thread.
You do realize that when you camp for hours killing the same crab you are not only killing 10 crabs ... you' are killing hundreds? The only difference is that in one you were directed to do so and in the other you "volunteered" to do so.
/smh
The game you are looking for requiring no PvE completion and where you can just jump in and start mindlessly shooting at people is that way - >>>>
... it's called an FPS.
Quit ruining the MMORPG genre with your constant "PvE grind" whines.
so now we are going back to the supply argument that some people take issue with me on. That position being, if a gamer doesnt know something exists how does he know he doesnt like it? additionally, if a gamer has issue with a game but has no other option will he stop being a gamer completely?
I use this point a lot to suggest AAAs dont have a clue what they are doing.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
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/Laughs
The only game that I reminisce about is vanilla SWG. That was a great time. They simply don't make games like that anymore. Vanilla SWG would be a classic if it were around today.
The game you are looking for requiring no PvE completion and where you can just jump in and start mindlessly shooting at people is that way - >>>>
... it's called an FPS.
Quit ruining the MMORPG genre with your constant "PvE grind" whines.
Don't worry. I doubt any dev is insane enough to ever try to use that kind of boredom-inducing mechanics.
There are plenty of fun games to choose from today.
An exact copy wouldn't hold up because the content has been done. If you made a game with modern playability, new content that managed to catch the magic and was "good" MMORPG it would easily IMO. This is all opinion until someone makes the MMORPG
Everquest was a vastly dated game released on the cusp of 3d gaming. WoW essentially was 30x more playable, better graphics and new quest hub system. It was huge step over any other game in the genre in those regards. It was targeted at EQ players. It's like being surprised that a PS1 level game lost customers to a similar but better game on PS3.
Nope, you're wrong. The genre of fantasy-based MMOs *CAME* from nerds, back in the days when the only people who had access to high speed Internet and computers that could run the games were nerds. That time is long gone, it went away at the time of WoW, when broadband went mainstream and online gaming did too. Now, fantasy-based MMOs have nothing to do with nerds, nerds make up a minuscule percentage of people playing online games and the fact that everyone moved beyond EQ is proof that what appealed to nerds, back in the day, is not what appeals to the gaming masses of today.
If there was significant demand for these games, they'd be made already and they'd be financially successful. That they are not, with the market research that these developers do, proves that there isn't significant demand.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
so you are taking the position that although the genre of fantasy based MMO was created by nerds and has lasted many decades that there is not any demand of it.
maybe the AAA have their head up their ass?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
The kind of fantasy MMOs that existed back in the day? No, there isn't a significant demand for it. UO, EQ, DAoC, there aren't enough people who want those kinds of games to make it financially viable for developers to bother with. You're arguing a fallacious position. Just because the fantasy genre is still around, that doesn't mean people want to play old-school MMOs, any more than just because the Lord of the Rings movies were popular with a mainstream audience, that means everyone is clamoring to read arcane fantasy novels.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Not enough demand compared to other stuff.
You are confused between "long term demand" vs "large enough demand".
So what if you have 10 people who really like this stuff since the beginning of time. So what if there is a old but small demand?
Why would AAA devs pay attention to an ancient small group of people when they can pay attention to 100000 times more?