Time based items: Lp potions just make the time shorter ingame to adchieve something..
best gear/weopons ingame are all crafted.. which takes a f2p player lots of time compared to a patron player..
The only difference is TIME
yes...exactly...
if you define winnning as building a house, a boat, getting to max lvl, crafting that epic item than a boost will give you a leg up over someone who doens't have the potion = P2W.
This^ (shortened it a bit)
Take a sub/patron player vs a sub/patron + shop.
The normal player has 2880 LP max a day. The shop user will have 4880 (if potion cd is for the whole account = 2max/day).
Now assume a sword of uberness which both can craft takes 10k LP. the shop player will have it in a bit more than 2 days while the non shop user will need 3-4 days.
Now, for the time between them the shop user basicly bought the sword of uberness with real money which imho makes it pay to win.
Now think people idling 3-4 sub accounts (cheaper then buying LP pots for the whole month) they will get "items of uberness" even faster. And if you add multiple accounts +potions then well, you get the point.
I guess higher level items are better then lower quality/level ones. And if I heard correct then this games endgame is heavy on items. So the more money you put in the game the better your char will be.
For me in an item heavy system "spending more money = better items" is the definition of p2w.
Your math is a little off. You can buy/use the LP pots per character per account. 6 characters on your account equals 6k LP every 12 hrs and 12k+ the regenerated LP every 24hrs. If your buying pots. Youll have that item that requires 10k LP in a day. Hence P2W.
This right here, accompanied with RMT, makes the game smell very strongly of P2W. You really have to be careful with RMT and stuff like Labor Pots. RMT is the reason GW2 is considered P2W by a number of people, when you can trade RL money for gold at 10-20x the rate at which you can farm it in game, the game becomes P2W. Couple that with inflation, and GW2 has gotten worse over time, slowly moving further and further into P2W territory.
I hope AA doesn't follow the same footsteps with RMT and the Labor Points PR disaster.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV Have played: You name it If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
Time based items: Lp potions just make the time shorter ingame to adchieve something..
best gear/weopons ingame are all crafted.. which takes a f2p player lots of time compared to a patron player..
The only difference is TIME
yes...exactly...
if you define winnning as building a house, a boat, getting to max lvl, crafting that epic item than a boost will give you a leg up over someone who doens't have the potion = P2W.
This^ (shortened it a bit)
Take a sub/patron player vs a sub/patron + shop.
The normal player has 2880 LP max a day. The shop user will have 4880 (if potion cd is for the whole account = 2max/day).
Now assume a sword of uberness which both can craft takes 10k LP. the shop player will have it in a bit more than 2 days while the non shop user will need 3-4 days.
Now, for the time between them the shop user basicly bought the sword of uberness with real money which imho makes it pay to win.
Now think people idling 3-4 sub accounts (cheaper then buying LP pots for the whole month) they will get "items of uberness" even faster. And if you add multiple accounts +potions then well, you get the point.
I guess higher level items are better then lower quality/level ones. And if I heard correct then this games endgame is heavy on items. So the more money you put in the game the better your char will be.
For me in an item heavy system "spending more money = better items" is the definition of p2w.
Your math is a little off. You can buy/use the LP pots per character per account. 6 characters on your account equals 6k LP every 12 hrs and 12k+ the regenerated LP every 24hrs. If your buying pots. Youll have that item that requires 10k LP in a day. Hence P2W.
But you still haven't won anything...you have an item sooner than someone else. Well guess what, the game will be filled with people obtaining items before others....
If the goal of the game was to achieve X within Y timeframe then you would have a point. but it simply isn't.
Tell me, how exactly have you won anything by having that item a few days before someone else? And what have you obtained / benefitted from by having the item sooner than the next guy....you still can't point to any tangible "win" save for being able to say "neener neener I got this 2 days before you did"
What you are describing is P2Convenience at best.
You gain absolutely nothing over anyone else by being able to use that item a couple of days before them...does having that item before them give you personally a specific stat increment? +10 to Agility for example? does having the item before someone else give you a unique title that they can't get?
I'm curious in your example, what is the prize? What is the benefit to having that item a couple of days before someoneo else?
If the game were termed to have a free trial & not be F2P, these P2W conversations would not exist.
Symantecs... Thread upon thread & post upon post over the definition of a fictional term.
There is no such thing as F2P...
You are all just pissing into the wind.
I agree that it would change the conversation, but i personally do not think that P2W would be off the table since my main gripe is with the ability to purchase boosts beyond what a subscriber pays.
My main issue with F2P/Free Trial in this game was that they cut off features and people are trying to say it's not P2W.
When it comes to the subscription model it's that a person who subscribes and supports the game with a monthly recurring subscription still is incentivized to pay more in order to maximize efficiency and that seems anti-consumer to me. It's just another way to wring a little more out of your supporters in a way that is entirely unnecessary.
I can recognize your point of view & you are correct. Of course the paid enhancement is not only extremely minute & usless for the majority of players, it is also financially unsound to get ahead this way as you would gain more & pay less with a second patron account.
Of course this could still change. Unlikely but possible. Either way, if this is the wedge issue of a "FTP" game, I think it's doing okay.
Full disclosure: I detest F2P.
Your wrong. Everything in the game uses labor points. Identify gear, open looted items, crafting , harvesting, reporting botters, open a portal It all costs LP. There is no way around that fact and LP drains fast. Thats what makes the LP Pots P2W.
Yes, I know this. I never said it wasn't P2W. In fact I believe if you are able to comprehend the written word, you would plainly see that I agreed.
The pots have a 12 hr cool down. 2 pots a day for minimal gain. Like I said, it would be more benificial to sub another account which is done in games considered not to be P2W. So are you saying a P2P game that you can sub multiple accounts is P2W? Because that's the box you just put yourself in.
Your post is not only incorrect, it borders the line of idiocy.
Since when can you "win" on an mmorpg? I've been playing mmo's since daoc and I have never seen anyone get the "congratulations you win" screen. What do I get if I win?
Time based items: Lp potions just make the time shorter ingame to adchieve something..
best gear/weopons ingame are all crafted.. which takes a f2p player lots of time compared to a patron player..
The only difference is TIME
yes...exactly...
if you define winnning as building a house, a boat, getting to max lvl, crafting that epic item than a boost will give you a leg up over someone who doens't have the potion = P2W.
This^ (shortened it a bit)
Take a sub/patron player vs a sub/patron + shop.
The normal player has 2880 LP max a day. The shop user will have 4880 (if potion cd is for the whole account = 2max/day).
Now assume a sword of uberness which both can craft takes 10k LP. the shop player will have it in a bit more than 2 days while the non shop user will need 3-4 days.
Now, for the time between them the shop user basicly bought the sword of uberness with real money which imho makes it pay to win.
Now think people idling 3-4 sub accounts (cheaper then buying LP pots for the whole month) they will get "items of uberness" even faster. And if you add multiple accounts +potions then well, you get the point.
I guess higher level items are better then lower quality/level ones. And if I heard correct then this games endgame is heavy on items. So the more money you put in the game the better your char will be.
For me in an item heavy system "spending more money = better items" is the definition of p2w.
Your math is a little off. You can buy/use the LP pots per character per account. 6 characters on your account equals 6k LP every 12 hrs and 12k+ the regenerated LP every 24hrs. If your buying pots. Youll have that item that requires 10k LP in a day. Hence P2W.
But you still haven't won anything...you have an item sooner than someone else. Well guess what, the game will be filled with people obtaining items before others....
If the goal of the game was to achieve X within Y timeframe then you would have a point. but it simply isn't.
Tell me, how exactly have you won anything by having that item a few days before someone else? And what have you obtained / benefitted from by having the item sooner than the next guy....you still can't point to any tangible "win" save for being able to say "neener neener I got this 2 days before you did"
What you are describing is P2Convenience at best.
You gain absolutely nothing over anyone else by being able to use that item a couple of days before them...does having that item before them give you personally a specific stat increment? +10 to Agility for example? does having the item before someone else give you a unique title that they can't get?
I'm curious in your example, what is the prize? What is the benefit to having that item a couple of days before someoneo else?
Try taking a clipper against a merchant ship, or galleon. You will see where the P2W comes into play. You have to understand the game revolves around crafting even open world pvp.
Well what happened in Wushu, there were really rare drops and perfectly crafted weapons, powerful stuff, all BoE. Stuff that people would sell for LOTS of silver. Intro the cash to silver conversion system. P2Winners/Whales would literally spend thousands of dollars converting cash to silver. This allowed them to buy these extremely rare, powerful BoEs.
So in theory there were no items of "I win" sold only in the cash shop, there were items of "I win" only affordable by those that buy silver from the cash shop.
Originally posted by viletot0 Since when can you "win" on an mmorpg? I've been playing mmo's since daoc and I have never seen anyone get the "congratulations you win" screen. What do I get if I win?
I don't believe the word "win" here actually means you achieve a final goal like in a race or a sporting event, it means you acquire something through payment outside of the normal realm of the game world. Games generally need to be fair and balanced to all those who are playing, and if some players purchase items outside of the game and use them to benefit themselves over others who don't, it is considered winning.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
If the game were termed to have a free trial & not be F2P, these P2W conversations would not exist.
Symantecs... Thread upon thread & post upon post over the definition of a fictional term.
There is no such thing as F2P...
You are all just pissing into the wind.
I agree that it would change the conversation, but i personally do not think that P2W would be off the table since my main gripe is with the ability to purchase boosts beyond what a subscriber pays.
My main issue with F2P/Free Trial in this game was that they cut off features and people are trying to say it's not P2W.
When it comes to the subscription model it's that a person who subscribes and supports the game with a monthly recurring subscription still is incentivized to pay more in order to maximize efficiency and that seems anti-consumer to me. It's just another way to wring a little more out of your supporters in a way that is entirely unnecessary.
I can recognize your point of view & you are correct. Of course the paid enhancement is not only extremely minute & usless for the majority of players, it is also financially unsound to get ahead this way as you would gain more & pay less with a second patron account.
Of course this could still change. Unlikely but possible. Either way, if this is the wedge issue of a "FTP" game, I think it's doing okay.
Full disclosure: I detest F2P.
Your wrong. Everything in the game uses labor points. Identify gear, open looted items, crafting , harvesting, reporting botters, open a portal It all costs LP. There is no way around that fact and LP drains fast. Thats what makes the LP Pots P2W.
Yes, I know this. I never said it wasn't P2W. In fact I believe if you are able to comprehend the written word, you would plainly see that I agreed.
The pots have a 12 hr cool down. 2 pots a day for minimal gain. Like I said, it would be more benificial to sub another account which is done in games considered not to be P2W. So are you saying a P2P game that you can sub multiple accounts is P2W? Because that's the box you just put yourself in.
Your post is not only incorrect, it borders the line of idiocy.
If you do the math it is 6 pots twice a day for a total of 12. You are only looking at one character. However the LP pool is for all characters on the account which is set to six per account. You can buy one pot per character every twelve hours. That is not minimal because a level 50 players has a 6k lp pool and can fill it every 12 just by making six characters reguardless the server he creates them on.
I guess it's in the eye of the beholder. I and most of my friends that play MMO's consider SWToR heavily P2W. I do have a buddy that still really enjoys SWToR though either way. It's just one of those things. Some people are going to consider cosmetics as P2W, for them the entire game and progression is how their character looks. I'm more concerned about the LP pots and Tax Certificates, I can live with the boosts and cosmetic stuff personally.
Paying for an advantage is P2W and it really is that simple, and that is the basic design of microtransaction games. Put up a paywall and let players purchase their way through it.
However, every person has their own tolerance level as to what is unfair, and that is generally what people mistake as the line for whether or game is P2W or not.
I think the OP missed the point entirely. It may not be a P2W game in the truest sense but the fact that in order to progress or in fact do anything in game, you need to spend real money. And if you are a very active player you will be spending either a lot of money or a lot of downtime doing nothing.
This game in my opinion is the worst kind of F2P game. They are gouging customers plain and simple. Why not just turn the game into a subscription based game and do away with the vast majority of things that require LP. I mean who thought using these very valuable LP's to open loot bags. That is such a travesty. There are so many other problems with this game that if there are enough players left to support a server 2 months after the game is officially released I will be surprised. I wish Trion had opted to make a real game instead of trying to retool a Korean game for the Western market. IT just doesn't work.
hehe ...have you heard about trying before buying? I recon thats what this is. They want a restricted free2play model so that ppl can try out their game, interact with others and if they like it they buy it. Its a well known marketing strategy in many markets. I personally have no problems with it. the developers have to make their bread and butter somehow, and if you value their hard work, then put your money where your mouth is. Art costs money, and the people behind it need money to bring home too, just like you
I think it's a business model designed to pull the wool over the customer's eyes. By disguising the cash shop as a means to an end for the free to play customers people overlook the fact that there is a cash on top of their subscription game. Cash shop bonuses for subscriptions is proof enough that they still expect to nickle and dime their players on top of the subscription.
Had this model been introduced without a free to play option this game would be flamed into ash. Had the game been released a year ago the complaints of pay to win would be replaced with complaints that there was even a cash shop. It's amazing how well these business models have integrated into our genre and it scares me when I think of what the future could bring.
But by your own example "spending more money" does not equal "better items". At worst "spending more money" equals "the same items a day or two quicker".....what exaxtly have "won"
Both players have the same item. One player has it couple of days earlier....that in and of itself represents no tangible "win" that I can see.
If both players meet in pvp then one of them will have the good items while the other one doesnt = win
And because he paid for the time/LP it is pay2win.
As for the "a day or two quicker" that is for one account and only buying 2 pots a day.
Imagine someone subs to more than one account, assuming 10 for easier math. This person than has 28800 LP per day and with the 2pot /day account that goes up to some nice 48800 (if you can get even more pots/day than do the math yourself from here on out )
Now in the example of 10k LP item, a regular one-account-player has his item in 3.5 days. In the same time the multi-account-(shop) player has 10(~16 with LPpots) items.
On the other side for the one account player to get the items it would take 1-1.5 months. But by that time the multi-cash-shopper will have more items aso. With enough money put in the "small time advantage" grew into a month. Think if someone *cough* botfarm *cough* goes crazy and gets 20 or 50 accounts.***
And takeing into account that some stuff takes days to grow and a high lvl item will probably use some of those ressources then the multi account will be able to grow more of them or different long-growing-time items at once. Which leads to another advantage which one might argue is minior and present in all games but it is there and represents more real money = more power ingame. If you plant 10x the stuff other people can then you might be able to sell those on the market and maybe even play the market.
LP are in place to stretch the time from noob items to uber items. But at the same time you can work around that wall the LP represent by spending money.
*** on second thought that system might actually make me play the game because it is a play to win-win. here is why:
If the game were termed to have a free trial & not be F2P, these P2W conversations would not exist.
Symantecs... Thread upon thread & post upon post over the definition of a fictional term.
There is no such thing as F2P...
You are all just pissing into the wind.
I agree that it would change the conversation, but i personally do not think that P2W would be off the table since my main gripe is with the ability to purchase boosts beyond what a subscriber pays.
My main issue with F2P/Free Trial in this game was that they cut off features and people are trying to say it's not P2W.
When it comes to the subscription model it's that a person who subscribes and supports the game with a monthly recurring subscription still is incentivized to pay more in order to maximize efficiency and that seems anti-consumer to me. It's just another way to wring a little more out of your supporters in a way that is entirely unnecessary.
I can recognize your point of view & you are correct. Of course the paid enhancement is not only extremely minute & usless for the majority of players, it is also financially unsound to get ahead this way as you would gain more & pay less with a second patron account.
Of course this could still change. Unlikely but possible. Either way, if this is the wedge issue of a "FTP" game, I think it's doing okay.
Full disclosure: I detest F2P.
Your wrong. Everything in the game uses labor points. Identify gear, open looted items, crafting , harvesting, reporting botters, open a portal It all costs LP. There is no way around that fact and LP drains fast. Thats what makes the LP Pots P2W.
Yes, I know this. I never said it wasn't P2W. In fact I believe if you are able to comprehend the written word, you would plainly see that I agreed.
The pots have a 12 hr cool down. 2 pots a day for minimal gain. Like I said, it would be more benificial to sub another account which is done in games considered not to be P2W. So are you saying a P2P game that you can sub multiple accounts is P2W? Because that's the box you just put yourself in.
Your post is not only incorrect, it borders the line of idiocy.
If you do the math it is 6 pots twice a day for a total of 12. You are only looking at one character. However the LP pool is for all characters on the account which is set to six per account. You can buy one pot per character every twelve hours. That is not minimal because a level 50 players has a 6k lp pool and can fill it every 12 just by making six characters reguardless the server he creates them on.
If you're draining the LP on six characters twice a day, I don't consider you to be in the "majority of players" I was referring to... as stated in my previous post...
If the above scenario is your playstyle, I say buy those LP pots to your heart's content because I'm not keeping up with you anyway.
ROFL just ROFL. For an outsider it may seem like you guys are speculating about the future of a game which is in BETA state, but, for me it is just funny since the game you are talking about is not BETA and being played by thousands of players over a long time period. So the answer to question of AA cash shop (especially LP potions) being P2W or not is mostly a fact with known(not speculated) results.
I played this game for several months on Korean servers. To be able to decide the effects of LP potions you first need to know the game (not talking about trying with limited people on some alpha/beta closed servers or not talking about limited experience in open beta).
Below are the facts I guess no one would disagree (again talking about people with real experience with the game):
1 - The game is highly gear dependent. Meaning anyone with 1 tier higher gear (there are gear types of course, again talking about right gear combination with 1 tier difference) would be able to solo multiple opponents who are 1 tier lower. This gets exponentially annoying as the gear tier difference increases...
2 - Gear crafting is highly dependent on RNG. You will be crafting hundreds of items to get only one good higher tier gear, multiply it a hundred times more to get the next tier. Even if you had the gold to buy the components from AH, the labor points you would need is enormous.... So good items are too rare and the price of good items are thousands of gold...
3 - Apart from being the most important element of crafting, Labor Points are the best source of income. When I was playing AA, on the server I was on, you could get as much as 10 gold per 100 LP. Compare this with roughly 1 gold per hour from mob grind drops...
4 - Again on my server a player would find himself earning an average of 100 gold per day from his grinds and trade runs and crafting where a t1 armor piece would cost him 200 gold and a t2 armor piece costing 1000+g and a t3 piece costing 15000+g!!
So now lets calculate: If you are FTP you would earn like 20g per day on my server and get a T1 set in 2 months, a T2 set in 2 years and probably a T3 set when you are a grandpa. Again if you were a Patron, you would get a T1 set in 10 days, a T2 set in 3-4 months and a T3 set in couple of years.
Now, if you BUY LP potions, use them to craft or as source of income you can get 1000g per day and buy a T1 set in a day, a T2 set in a week and a T3 set in few months (assuming you cant buy it from another player using RMT which would be way cheaper =P)
As you can see, it is next to impossible for a FTP to get any gear other than T1 and highly unlikely for a Patron to get any gear higher than T2, but a paying customer (by paying i mean RMT) can get his/her T1/T2 in no time and will most likely be walking in T3 gear in very short time, and if not highly unskilled, he would be crushing his lower gear opponents in bunches like a bull...
Here I dont want to talk about groups of people who would insta-level and insta-gear themselves in the first few days after launch and take control of the most important routes/points of the game earning them a HUGE advantage over other guilds simply by PAYING.
ROFL just ROFL. For an outsider it may seem like you guys are speculating about the future of a game which is in BETA state, but, for me it is just funny since the game you are talking about is not BETA and being played by thousands of players over a long time period. So the answer to question of AA cash shop (especially LP potions) being P2W or not is mostly a fact with known(not speculated) results.
I played this game for several months on Korean servers. To be able to decide the effects of LP potions you first need to know the game (not talking about trying with limited people on some alpha/beta closed servers or not talking about limited experience in open beta).
Below are the facts I guess no one would disagree (again talking about people with real experience with the game):
1 - The game is highly gear dependent. Meaning anyone with 1 tier higher gear (there are gear types of course, again talking about right gear combination with 1 tier difference) would be able to solo multiple opponents who are 1 tier lower. This gets exponentially annoying as the gear tier difference increases...
2 - Gear crafting is highly dependent on RNG. You will be crafting hundreds of items to get only one good higher tier gear, multiply it a hundred times more to get the next tier. Even if you had the gold to buy the components from AH, the labor points you would need is enormous.... So good items are too rare and the price of good items are thousands of gold...
3 - Apart from being the most important element of crafting, Labor Points are the best source of income. When I was playing AA, on the server I was on, you could get as much as 10 gold per 100 LP. Compare this with roughly 1 gold per hour from mob grind drops...
4 - Again on my server a player would find himself earning an average of 100 gold per day from his grinds and trade runs and crafting where a t1 armor piece would cost him 200 gold and a t2 armor piece costing 1000+g and a t3 piece costing 15000+g!!
So now lets calculate: If you are FTP you would earn like 20g per day on my server and get a T1 set in 2 months, a T2 set in 2 years and probably a T3 set when you are a grandpa. Again if you were a Patron, you would get a T1 set in 10 days, a T2 set in 3-4 months and a T3 set in couple of years.
Now, if you BUY LP potions, use them to craft or as source of income you can get 1000g per day and buy a T1 set in a day, a T2 set in a week and a T3 set in few months (assuming you cant buy it from another player using RMT which would be way cheaper =P)
As you can see, it is next to impossible for a FTP to get any gear other than T1 and highly unlikely for a Patron to get any gear higher than T2, but a paying customer (by paying i mean RMT) can get his/her T1/T2 in no time and will most likely be walking in T3 gear in very short time, and if not highly unskilled, he would be crushing his lower gear opponents in bunches like a bull...
Here I dont want to talk about groups of people who would insta-level and insta-gear themselves in the first few days after launch and take control of the most important routes/points of the game earning them a HUGE advantage over other guilds simply by PAYING.
Now you decide if the Cash Shop is P2W or not....
Well I guess if this is true, AA really is Pay 2 Win and should be avoided. I certainly hope it isn't true. That's a shame, but I think we kinda all see it coming.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV Have played: You name it If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
ROFL just ROFL. For an outsider it may seem like you guys are speculating about the future of a game which is in BETA state, but, for me it is just funny since the game you are talking about is not BETA and being played by thousands of players over a long time period. So the answer to question of AA cash shop (especially LP potions) being P2W or not is mostly a fact with known(not speculated) results.
I played this game for several months on Korean servers. To be able to decide the effects of LP potions you first need to know the game (not talking about trying with limited people on some alpha/beta closed servers or not talking about limited experience in open beta).
Below are the facts I guess no one would disagree (again talking about people with real experience with the game):
1 - The game is highly gear dependent. Meaning anyone with 1 tier higher gear (there are gear types of course, again talking about right gear combination with 1 tier difference) would be able to solo multiple opponents who are 1 tier lower. This gets exponentially annoying as the gear tier difference increases...
2 - Gear crafting is highly dependent on RNG. You will be crafting hundreds of items to get only one good higher tier gear, multiply it a hundred times more to get the next tier. Even if you had the gold to buy the components from AH, the labor points you would need is enormous.... So good items are too rare and the price of good items are thousands of gold...
3 - Apart from being the most important element of crafting, Labor Points are the best source of income. When I was playing AA, on the server I was on, you could get as much as 10 gold per 100 LP. Compare this with roughly 1 gold per hour from mob grind drops...
4 - Again on my server a player would find himself earning an average of 100 gold per day from his grinds and trade runs and crafting where a t1 armor piece would cost him 200 gold and a t2 armor piece costing 1000+g and a t3 piece costing 15000+g!!
So now lets calculate: If you are FTP you would earn like 20g per day on my server and get a T1 set in 2 months, a T2 set in 2 years and probably a T3 set when you are a grandpa. Again if you were a Patron, you would get a T1 set in 10 days, a T2 set in 3-4 months and a T3 set in couple of years.
Now, if you BUY LP potions, use them to craft or as source of income you can get 1000g per day and buy a T1 set in a day, a T2 set in a week and a T3 set in few months (assuming you cant buy it from another player using RMT which would be way cheaper =P)
As you can see, it is next to impossible for a FTP to get any gear other than T1 and highly unlikely for a Patron to get any gear higher than T2, but a paying customer (by paying i mean RMT) can get his/her T1/T2 in no time and will most likely be walking in T3 gear in very short time, and if not highly unskilled, he would be crushing his lower gear opponents in bunches like a bull...
Here I dont want to talk about groups of people who would insta-level and insta-gear themselves in the first few days after launch and take control of the most important routes/points of the game earning them a HUGE advantage over other guilds simply by PAYING.
Now you decide if the Cash Shop is P2W or not....
Well I guess if this is true, AA really is Pay 2 Win and should be avoided. I certainly hope it isn't true. That's a shame, but I think we kinda all see it coming.
Rofl, just rofl... "Now you decide..." So dramatic... Of course there is the fact that the LP conversion rates are not the same in the west, so the time table & LP rate used in Stealth's little shell game is based off of the Korean version which is far more strict than the Russian version which, in turn, is far more strict than the western version that this discussion is based on...
But hey - who on this site is interested in accuracy?
say where is teh p2w things? from that list and what I saw ingame there is nothing out of normal for CS
Originally posted by funcon The Asian style character graphics is what turned me off from this game. A shame because the game I hear has a lot of great features and the world is open and seamless.
since the game is korean, what you expected? btw I prefer this kinda of graphics and art over western games and cartoon like wild star and WoW, also figures the only western dev game I normally play is Gw2 all the rest don't even bother.
Originally posted by BetaBlocka
Originally posted by Aeonblades
I don't see where they changed anything from the original price list to make it less P2W? Maybe I'm missing something, this is the same price list everyone was complaining about already, right? Labor point potions, Salon Certificates (really? Just use in game currency). All kinds of experience boosters, the tax certificates are still there as well.
Really the game is only P2W if you are a crafter though, it shouldn't affect normal players.
I had not seen the list before, hence posting it.
Really, you consider barber shop / salon certs as Pay To WIN?
Yes, the LP pots are still there, with a 12 hour cool down...so where is this unlimited daily LP if your wallet is deep enough that I keep hearing people complain about?
As for XP boosts and things like that, if you read it they are all very small boosts like 10% etc and are almost exactly the same as SWTOR sells in their cash shop (XP boosts etc) and nobody claims SWTOR is P2W...
I was actually very pleasantly surprised, based on the bullshit that gets spread about the game, to find most of the "Pay To Win" cash shop is cosmetic features like costumes and barber shops.
What little "boosts" there are appear to be minor boosts at best.
Also nice to see a decent amount of stuff can be purchased for loyalty tokens...
Not only that I also read that once purchased from the shop, most of this stuff can be sold on the ingame vendors for others to purchase, again like SWTOR.
EDIT: I cannot see even one thing on that list that makes anything P2W....the speed boost look to be like "30% glider speed for 30 seconds" woooooooooaaahhhhh big deal. Even the boosts are like 10% for 60 mins on XP and things like that. It's hardly a difference maker is it?
only problem here is you saying its like Swtor, players selling cs items is pretty common even before Swtor going to F2P, but I never saw a korean game, hell even chinese gameto sell hotbars for players to use, also since the swtor caps you money and there is not way to unlock it, anything else is moot, SWtor have the worse CS around and we should never compare it with other games, unless it to say, "its a P2W but at least is not like swtor
Rofl, just rofl... "Now you decide..." So dramatic... Of course there is the fact that the LP conversion rates are not the same in the west, so the time table & LP rate used in Stealth's little shell game is based off of the Korean version which is far more strict than the Russian version which, in turn, is far more strict than the western version that this discussion is based on...
But hey - who on this site is interested in accuracy?
Well bro, you want accuracy, here is the accuracy you gain ~1400 LP per day if you dont wanna buy from Cash shop, you gain 13400 LP per day if you willing to buy from Cash Shop. Is that accurate enough?
Now you tell me 10x more LP wont translate into multiple times more income and multiple times faster gear up? What you grind in a year a paying customer will get in a month, then you will get the frustration of your 10 man trade team getting face rolled by 3-4 pirates (or rival guild) every time you try...
I am not a troll and not saying the game is not fun, If it was not fun I would not play several months. All I am saying is that there is a REAL P2W THREAT...
If the LP gain through cash shop was not that severe, for example only %100 more LP gain (which is ~%850 atm) then it would not be that fair to talk about a P2W THREAT but that multiple toons per account and timers being toon specific creates a huge LP GAIN ADVANTAGE...
Also whatever the specific area-server LP conversions are If you know the game you also know that every action in the game has a LP conversion rate. It may be 100 LP = 10g on my server and T1 item being 200g, on another server 100 LP may net you 5g and the T1 item price will be 100g, when you convert both to LP, you will see that T1 item costs a total of 2000LP worth gold on both servers.... So If I have the opportunity to get 10x more LP through cash shop usage, I will sure get high lever gear in ~1/10th time you would get yours without paying...
It's not necessarily p2w, although indirectly, some aspects of it are. It's more like "pay 2 advance faster". The person who pays more money, will always have more labor points. Labor points are the lifeblood of this game. Without them, you cannot progress in crafting, and other activities.
If any of you have played any type of Facebook game, then it's the same thing. In Facebook games, you have limited "energy", and the only way to do anything is to use energy. After it's spent, buy more, or either wait online or offline to regenerate energy. It depends on the game, whether they allow an offline regen option.
Rofl, just rofl... "Now you decide..." So dramatic... Of course there is the fact that the LP conversion rates are not the same in the west, so the time table & LP rate used in Stealth's little shell game is based off of the Korean version which is far more strict than the Russian version which, in turn, is far more strict than the western version that this discussion is based on...
But hey - who on this site is interested in accuracy?
Well bro, you want accuracy, here is the accuracy you gain ~1400 LP per day if you dont wanna buy from Cash shop, you gain 13400 LP per day if you willing to buy from Cash Shop. Is that accurate enough?
Now you tell me 10x more LP wont translate into multiple times more income and multiple times faster gear up? What you grind in a year a paying customer will get in a month, then you will get the frustration of your 10 man trade team getting face rolled by 3-4 pirates (or rival guild) every time you try...
I am not a troll and not saying the game is not fun, If it was not fun I would not play several months. All I am saying is that there is a REAL P2W THREAT...
If the LP gain through cash shop was not that severe, for example only %100 more LP gain (which is ~%850 atm) then it would not be that fair to talk about a P2W THREAT but that multiple toons per account and timers being toon specific creates a huge LP GAIN ADVANTAGE...
Also whatever the specific area-server LP conversions are If you know the game you also know that every action in the game has a LP conversion rate. It may be 100 LP = 10g on my server and T1 item being 200g, on another server 100 LP may net you 5g and the T1 item price will be 100g, when you convert both to LP, you will see that T1 item costs a total of 2000LP worth gold on both servers.... So If I have the opportunity to get 10x more LP through cash shop usage, I will sure get high lever gear in ~1/10th time you would get yours without paying...
Okay bro, we're getting closer.
My point was not to deny the threat but to reign in the exaggerations just a tad.
These games come with all kinds of threats. Larger guilds may have an advantage. Time of day/night that you play will give an advantage. In game friends & server choice, blah-blah-blah...
The real question is: Does the good of the game outweigh the bad?
Originally posted by deavyin Every single one of those potions is by definition pay to win since they give you a benefit over someone who doesn't have one that can only be purchased from the shop and people who pay with real world money will always be able to get potions faster than those who use their in game tokens.
an unfair advantage that free players cant get? No because you can get that all in game without spending a cent.
You are re-defining what it means to be P2W and YES it is an unfair advantage. A person who uses money to purchase an XP potion can do so each time they want only limited by their ability to pay money.
A person who wants to use coins is limited by the amount of coins they can get (which is 5 per day).
Not only is there an incentive to use real world money, but a person with more money, and the willingness to pay it, will always have a significant leg up over a person using coins.
Would you change your argument if:
Xp boost was 100%, lasted for 24 hours, cost 5 dollars real world money and 500 in game coins and you only got 1 coin per day when you logged in (500 days of loggin in).
I mean, by your logic, you can purchase it with in game currency so it's clearly not P2W.
Such an idiotic logical fallacy. You say he's redefining what it means to be P2W when you're redefining the word logic. You say a f2p player is limited by the amount of coins they can get(which is probably 5 per character and not a flat 5 per day per account) and you sit there and try to act a person who pays money for pots aren't limited by the amount of dollars they have.
I saw the way you tried to re-word it to make it seem like they weren't really limited by saying they were limited by their ability to pay money, but we all know that really means they're limited by the amount of cash they have. I don't really see this being much different than a f2p player being limited by how many coins they have in game.
I don't see where they changed anything from the original price list to make it less P2W? Maybe I'm missing something, this is the same price list everyone was complaining about already, right? Labor point potions, Salon Certificates (really? Just use in game currency). All kinds of experience boosters, the tax certificates are still there as well.
Really the game is only P2W if you are a crafter though, it shouldn't affect normal players.
The problem is crafting is a huge part of the game and a ton of the quests require it and your home will require it. Any loot you get will require LP to open bags or identify gear. Thats the killer everything requires you to use your labor points when they shouldn't.
I'm in Alpha and currently have 5000 LP. I dont think we know what it will be set at launch (do we?) but that is a question of balance not advantage.
I see the labor points are a gating mechanism to force you to slow down. People who pay money will obviously get through more gates than those who play for free as it should be. Thats privilege not advantage. Just because I can get things faster than doesn't make me better against you.
Isn't this game's economy player driven? So crafting is huge? LP is meant to curb that? So I can buy a second account to overcome that limit? To say nothing of RMT gold conversion in said player driven economy.....which it won't be.....It will be cash shop driven economy.
Originally posted by deavyin Every single one of those potions is by definition pay to win since they give you a benefit over someone who doesn't have one that can only be purchased from the shop and people who pay with real world money will always be able to get potions faster than those who use their in game tokens.
an unfair advantage that free players cant get? No because you can get that all in game without spending a cent.
You are re-defining what it means to be P2W and YES it is an unfair advantage. A person who uses money to purchase an XP potion can do so each time they want only limited by their ability to pay money.
A person who wants to use coins is limited by the amount of coins they can get (which is 5 per day).
Not only is there an incentive to use real world money, but a person with more money, and the willingness to pay it, will always have a significant leg up over a person using coins.
Would you change your argument if:
Xp boost was 100%, lasted for 24 hours, cost 5 dollars real world money and 500 in game coins and you only got 1 coin per day when you logged in (500 days of loggin in).
I mean, by your logic, you can purchase it with in game currency so it's clearly not P2W.
Thats not redefining anything, that is what the majority of players consider P2W. XP boost isnt P2W. Getting to max level does win you the game.
So what about the thousands upon thousands of people who do consider xp boosts P2W? I don't but I'm curious how our opinion is any better than theirs. After all, it's their character, if max level is a win for them but not for us, how is the problem solved?
No F2P system exists out there today that isn't P2W to someone, somewhere. I've even had people say Rift is P2W. People are so different, it's one reason why F2P is universally derided by most MMO gamers.
If your going to whine about P2W then there has to be a win.
The minute one of these crybabies shows me a winner, then I might believe them.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
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This right here, accompanied with RMT, makes the game smell very strongly of P2W. You really have to be careful with RMT and stuff like Labor Pots. RMT is the reason GW2 is considered P2W by a number of people, when you can trade RL money for gold at 10-20x the rate at which you can farm it in game, the game becomes P2W. Couple that with inflation, and GW2 has gotten worse over time, slowly moving further and further into P2W territory.
I hope AA doesn't follow the same footsteps with RMT and the Labor Points PR disaster.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
But you still haven't won anything...you have an item sooner than someone else. Well guess what, the game will be filled with people obtaining items before others....
If the goal of the game was to achieve X within Y timeframe then you would have a point. but it simply isn't.
Tell me, how exactly have you won anything by having that item a few days before someone else? And what have you obtained / benefitted from by having the item sooner than the next guy....you still can't point to any tangible "win" save for being able to say "neener neener I got this 2 days before you did"
What you are describing is P2Convenience at best.
You gain absolutely nothing over anyone else by being able to use that item a couple of days before them...does having that item before them give you personally a specific stat increment? +10 to Agility for example? does having the item before someone else give you a unique title that they can't get?
I'm curious in your example, what is the prize? What is the benefit to having that item a couple of days before someoneo else?
Yes, I know this. I never said it wasn't P2W. In fact I believe if you are able to comprehend the written word, you would plainly see that I agreed.
The pots have a 12 hr cool down. 2 pots a day for minimal gain. Like I said, it would be more benificial to sub another account which is done in games considered not to be P2W. So are you saying a P2P game that you can sub multiple accounts is P2W? Because that's the box you just put yourself in.
Your post is not only incorrect, it borders the line of idiocy.
Try taking a clipper against a merchant ship, or galleon. You will see where the P2W comes into play. You have to understand the game revolves around crafting even open world pvp.
Well what happened in Wushu, there were really rare drops and perfectly crafted weapons, powerful stuff, all BoE. Stuff that people would sell for LOTS of silver. Intro the cash to silver conversion system. P2Winners/Whales would literally spend thousands of dollars converting cash to silver. This allowed them to buy these extremely rare, powerful BoEs.
So in theory there were no items of "I win" sold only in the cash shop, there were items of "I win" only affordable by those that buy silver from the cash shop.
I don't believe the word "win" here actually means you achieve a final goal like in a race or a sporting event, it means you acquire something through payment outside of the normal realm of the game world. Games generally need to be fair and balanced to all those who are playing, and if some players purchase items outside of the game and use them to benefit themselves over others who don't, it is considered winning.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
If you do the math it is 6 pots twice a day for a total of 12. You are only looking at one character. However the LP pool is for all characters on the account which is set to six per account. You can buy one pot per character every twelve hours. That is not minimal because a level 50 players has a 6k lp pool and can fill it every 12 just by making six characters reguardless the server he creates them on.
Paying for an advantage is P2W and it really is that simple, and that is the basic design of microtransaction games. Put up a paywall and let players purchase their way through it.
However, every person has their own tolerance level as to what is unfair, and that is generally what people mistake as the line for whether or game is P2W or not.
I think it's a business model designed to pull the wool over the customer's eyes. By disguising the cash shop as a means to an end for the free to play customers people overlook the fact that there is a cash on top of their subscription game. Cash shop bonuses for subscriptions is proof enough that they still expect to nickle and dime their players on top of the subscription.
Had this model been introduced without a free to play option this game would be flamed into ash. Had the game been released a year ago the complaints of pay to win would be replaced with complaints that there was even a cash shop. It's amazing how well these business models have integrated into our genre and it scares me when I think of what the future could bring.
If both players meet in pvp then one of them will have the good items while the other one doesnt = win
And because he paid for the time/LP it is pay2win.
As for the "a day or two quicker" that is for one account and only buying 2 pots a day.
Imagine someone subs to more than one account, assuming 10 for easier math. This person than has 28800 LP per day and with the 2pot /day account that goes up to some nice 48800 (if you can get even more pots/day than do the math yourself from here on out
)
Now in the example of 10k LP item, a regular one-account-player has his item in 3.5 days. In the same time the multi-account-(shop) player has 10(~16 with LPpots) items.
On the other side for the one account player to get the items it would take 1-1.5 months. But by that time the multi-cash-shopper will have more items aso. With enough money put in the "small time advantage" grew into a month. Think if someone *cough* botfarm *cough* goes crazy and gets 20 or 50 accounts.***
And takeing into account that some stuff takes days to grow and a high lvl item will probably use some of those ressources then the multi account will be able to grow more of them or different long-growing-time items at once. Which leads to another advantage which one might argue is minior and present in all games but it is there and represents more real money = more power ingame. If you plant 10x the stuff other people can then you might be able to sell those on the market and maybe even play the market.
LP are in place to stretch the time from noob items to uber items. But at the same time you can work around that wall the LP represent by spending money.
*** on second thought that system might actually make me play the game because it is a play to win-win. here is why:
From the pricelist:
- Item-Name: Workers Compensation
- Effect: 1.000 LAbour, 12H Cooldown, LvL 15 Required
- Credits (c): 300c
- Dollar ($): 2,10$
- Euro (€): 1,50€
Subfee: ~15$/€ (I guess)
LP/day: offline 1.4k
Sell 1k lp for 1€, 1.5$, if selling 1k/day = 30€ / 45$, => 15€ / 30$ win.
If you're draining the LP on six characters twice a day, I don't consider you to be in the "majority of players" I was referring to... as stated in my previous post...
If the above scenario is your playstyle, I say buy those LP pots to your heart's content because I'm not keeping up with you anyway.
ROFL just ROFL. For an outsider it may seem like you guys are speculating about the future of a game which is in BETA state, but, for me it is just funny since the game you are talking about is not BETA and being played by thousands of players over a long time period. So the answer to question of AA cash shop (especially LP potions) being P2W or not is mostly a fact with known(not speculated) results.
I played this game for several months on Korean servers. To be able to decide the effects of LP potions you first need to know the game (not talking about trying with limited people on some alpha/beta closed servers or not talking about limited experience in open beta).
Below are the facts I guess no one would disagree (again talking about people with real experience with the game):
1 - The game is highly gear dependent. Meaning anyone with 1 tier higher gear (there are gear types of course, again talking about right gear combination with 1 tier difference) would be able to solo multiple opponents who are 1 tier lower. This gets exponentially annoying as the gear tier difference increases...
2 - Gear crafting is highly dependent on RNG. You will be crafting hundreds of items to get only one good higher tier gear, multiply it a hundred times more to get the next tier. Even if you had the gold to buy the components from AH, the labor points you would need is enormous.... So good items are too rare and the price of good items are thousands of gold...
3 - Apart from being the most important element of crafting, Labor Points are the best source of income. When I was playing AA, on the server I was on, you could get as much as 10 gold per 100 LP. Compare this with roughly 1 gold per hour from mob grind drops...
4 - Again on my server a player would find himself earning an average of 100 gold per day from his grinds and trade runs and crafting where a t1 armor piece would cost him 200 gold and a t2 armor piece costing 1000+g and a t3 piece costing 15000+g!!
So now lets calculate: If you are FTP you would earn like 20g per day on my server and get a T1 set in 2 months, a T2 set in 2 years and probably a T3 set when you are a grandpa. Again if you were a Patron, you would get a T1 set in 10 days, a T2 set in 3-4 months and a T3 set in couple of years.
Now, if you BUY LP potions, use them to craft or as source of income you can get 1000g per day and buy a T1 set in a day, a T2 set in a week and a T3 set in few months (assuming you cant buy it from another player using RMT which would be way cheaper =P)
As you can see, it is next to impossible for a FTP to get any gear other than T1 and highly unlikely for a Patron to get any gear higher than T2, but a paying customer (by paying i mean RMT) can get his/her T1/T2 in no time and will most likely be walking in T3 gear in very short time, and if not highly unskilled, he would be crushing his lower gear opponents in bunches like a bull...
Here I dont want to talk about groups of people who would insta-level and insta-gear themselves in the first few days after launch and take control of the most important routes/points of the game earning them a HUGE advantage over other guilds simply by PAYING.
Now you decide if the Cash Shop is P2W or not....
Well I guess if this is true, AA really is Pay 2 Win and should be avoided. I certainly hope it isn't true. That's a shame, but I think we kinda all see it coming.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
Rofl, just rofl... "Now you decide..." So dramatic... Of course there is the fact that the LP conversion rates are not the same in the west, so the time table & LP rate used in Stealth's little shell game is based off of the Korean version which is far more strict than the Russian version which, in turn, is far more strict than the western version that this discussion is based on...
But hey - who on this site is interested in accuracy?
say where is teh p2w things? from that list and what I saw ingame there is nothing out of normal for CS
since the game is korean, what you expected? btw I prefer this kinda of graphics and art over western games and cartoon like wild star and WoW, also figures the only western dev game I normally play is Gw2 all the rest don't even bother.only problem here is you saying its like Swtor, players selling cs items is pretty common even before Swtor going to F2P, but I never saw a korean game, hell even chinese gameto sell hotbars for players to use, also since the swtor caps you money and there is not way to unlock it, anything else is moot, SWtor have the worse CS around and we should never compare it with other games, unless it to say, "its a P2W but at least is not like swtor
Well bro, you want accuracy, here is the accuracy you gain ~1400 LP per day if you dont wanna buy from Cash shop, you gain 13400 LP per day if you willing to buy from Cash Shop. Is that accurate enough?
Now you tell me 10x more LP wont translate into multiple times more income and multiple times faster gear up? What you grind in a year a paying customer will get in a month, then you will get the frustration of your 10 man trade team getting face rolled by 3-4 pirates (or rival guild) every time you try...
I am not a troll and not saying the game is not fun, If it was not fun I would not play several months. All I am saying is that there is a REAL P2W THREAT...
If the LP gain through cash shop was not that severe, for example only %100 more LP gain (which is ~%850 atm) then it would not be that fair to talk about a P2W THREAT but that multiple toons per account and timers being toon specific creates a huge LP GAIN ADVANTAGE...
Also whatever the specific area-server LP conversions are If you know the game you also know that every action in the game has a LP conversion rate. It may be 100 LP = 10g on my server and T1 item being 200g, on another server 100 LP may net you 5g and the T1 item price will be 100g, when you convert both to LP, you will see that T1 item costs a total of 2000LP worth gold on both servers.... So If I have the opportunity to get 10x more LP through cash shop usage, I will sure get high lever gear in ~1/10th time you would get yours without paying...
It's not necessarily p2w, although indirectly, some aspects of it are. It's more like "pay 2 advance faster". The person who pays more money, will always have more labor points. Labor points are the lifeblood of this game. Without them, you cannot progress in crafting, and other activities.
If any of you have played any type of Facebook game, then it's the same thing. In Facebook games, you have limited "energy", and the only way to do anything is to use energy. After it's spent, buy more, or either wait online or offline to regenerate energy. It depends on the game, whether they allow an offline regen option.
This video explains the concept: http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cobqlPV87c
double-post, website lag
Item-Name: Lucky Quicksilver Tonic
- Effect: Lootrate +10% for 60m
- Credits (c): 80c
- Dollar ($): 0,56$
- Euro (€): 0,40€
- Feedback: <Following>
Tested my self 200 mobs droped only 30 sacks that are opened with labour point drop money but little ....
no wonder why drop rate was so bad this game is build you always use cash shop
Waited for 3 years then I found out it's trash
Okay bro, we're getting closer.
My point was not to deny the threat but to reign in the exaggerations just a tad.
These games come with all kinds of threats. Larger guilds may have an advantage. Time of day/night that you play will give an advantage. In game friends & server choice, blah-blah-blah...
The real question is: Does the good of the game outweigh the bad?
You decide... :P
Such an idiotic logical fallacy. You say he's redefining what it means to be P2W when you're redefining the word logic. You say a f2p player is limited by the amount of coins they can get(which is probably 5 per character and not a flat 5 per day per account) and you sit there and try to act a person who pays money for pots aren't limited by the amount of dollars they have.
I saw the way you tried to re-word it to make it seem like they weren't really limited by saying they were limited by their ability to pay money, but we all know that really means they're limited by the amount of cash they have. I don't really see this being much different than a f2p player being limited by how many coins they have in game.
I'm in Alpha and currently have 5000 LP. I dont think we know what it will be set at launch (do we?) but that is a question of balance not advantage.
I see the labor points are a gating mechanism to force you to slow down. People who pay money will obviously get through more gates than those who play for free as it should be. Thats privilege not advantage. Just because I can get things faster than doesn't make me better against you.
Stop blaming the game and look at the player
Isn't this game's economy player driven? So crafting is huge? LP is meant to curb that? So I can buy a second account to overcome that limit? To say nothing of RMT gold conversion in said player driven economy.....which it won't be.....It will be cash shop driven economy.
So yeah, P2W
If your going to whine about P2W then there has to be a win.
The minute one of these crybabies shows me a winner, then I might believe them.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!