Some of the stories are beautifully written. The problem is, no matter how well written, it isn't going to be anywhere near as good as a singleplayer game.
Unless you do what SWTOR did, dedicate all your time and money into making your MMO NOT feel like an MMO. And at the end of the day, SWTOR is still just a shitty version of KOTOR.
The only stories MMOs can tell well are simulated world stories, meaning tons of players getting involved, or little things you stumble across. You can't make a singleplayer feel like the sole hero without shattering the illusion.
Scripted linear stories are NOT meant for MMOs. Everything that has tried to put them in there has just hurt the genre.
^ this is what I am talking about. In MMOs lore, setting, and back story are extremely important but following a linear in depth storyline (i.e. GW2, ESO, SW:ToR) makes the game feel like a single player RPG by setting people on a strict path that you follow to progress, only the mood is killed when the fate of the world rests on your shoulders and your shoulders alone to kill said creature or complete said ritual and there are 15 other people doing it next to you.
IMO what made the early MMOs so immersive was the fact that they gave you a sense of what was going on, some general direction and an awesome fantasy environment to do what you wanted in it.
They only thing old MMORPGs gave you back in the day was something new and shiny. It's been years since you played the first few MMORPGS, the novelty has warned off and you basically become bitter that you can't get that feeling again. It's time to look for a new genre to get that feeling again yo and stop blaming the games.
Get a load of this guy...
No, I still get that feeling from new MMOs that are done in the oldschool style. My tastes haven't changed. The games have, radically. And I think everyone can agree on that.
Some of the stories are beautifully written. The problem is, no matter how well written, it isn't going to be anywhere near as good as a singleplayer game.
Unless you do what SWTOR did, dedicate all your time and money into making your MMO NOT feel like an MMO. And at the end of the day, SWTOR is still just a shitty version of KOTOR.
The only stories MMOs can tell well are simulated world stories, meaning tons of players getting involved, or little things you stumble across. You can't make a singleplayer feel like the sole hero without shattering the illusion.
Scripted linear stories are NOT meant for MMOs. Everything that has tried to put them in there has just hurt the genre.
^ this is what I am talking about. In MMOs lore, setting, and back story are extremely important but following a linear in depth storyline (i.e. GW2, ESO, SW:ToR) makes the game feel like a single player RPG by setting people on a strict path that you follow to progress, only the mood is killed when the fate of the world rests on your shoulders and your shoulders alone to kill said creature or complete said ritual and there are 15 other people doing it next to you.
IMO what made the early MMOs so immersive was the fact that they gave you a sense of what was going on, some general direction and an awesome fantasy environment to do what you wanted in it.
They only thing old MMORPGs gave you back in the day was something new and shiny. It's been years since you played the first few MMORPGS, the novelty has warned off and you basically become bitter that you can't get that feeling again. It's time to look for a new genre to get that feeling again yo and stop blaming the games.
Get a load of this guy...
No, I still get that feeling from new MMOs that are done in the oldschool style. My tastes haven't changed. The games have, radically. And I think everyone can agree on that.
Everyone eh? Too funny. Get a load of this guy........
Originally posted by DavisFlight Some of the stories are beautifully written. The problem is, no matter how well written, it isn't going to be anywhere near as good as a singleplayer game.Unless you do what SWTOR did, dedicate all your time and money into making your MMO NOT feel like an MMO. And at the end of the day, SWTOR is still just a shitty version of KOTOR.The only stories MMOs can tell well are simulated world stories, meaning tons of players getting involved, or little things you stumble across. You can't make a singleplayer feel like the sole hero without shattering the illusion.Scripted linear stories are NOT meant for MMOs. Everything that has tried to put them in there has just hurt the genre.
^ this is what I am talking about. In MMOs lore, setting, and back story are extremely important but following a linear in depth storyline (i.e. GW2, ESO, SW:ToR) makes the game feel like a single player RPG by setting people on a strict path that you follow to progress, only the mood is killed when the fate of the world rests on your shoulders and your shoulders alone to kill said creature or complete said ritual and there are 15 other people doing it next to you.IMO what made the early MMOs so immersive was the fact that they gave you a sense of what was going on, some general direction and an awesome fantasy environment to do what you wanted in it.
They only thing old MMORPGs gave you back in the day was something new and shiny. It's been years since you played the first few MMORPGS, the novelty has warned off and you basically become bitter that you can't get that feeling again. It's time to look for a new genre to get that feeling again yo and stop blaming the games.
Get a load of this guy...No, I still get that feeling from new MMOs that are done in the oldschool style. My tastes haven't changed. The games have, radically. And I think everyone can agree on that.
Everyone eh? Too funny. Get a load of this guy........
So you think that MMOs have not changed in the past 15 years? I have to wonder about anyone who thinks they have not.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
There's no more danger while running through zones.
I remember the first time i tried to run from San d'oria to Jeuno in FFXI. I decided to do it at night, which meant more dangerous mobs, and was met with death after death until i teamed up with some folks.
Too streamlined. Too much hand-holding. Too much ! and ?.Too much meta. Too much fast-travel. Too little world. Too little focus on adventure. Too much focus on "getting to the end". Everything to do with Cash Shops.
but they have many things that make them true MMO and good RPG , things that nowadays MMORPG lacked.
"true" MMO is not desirable to me. I would much prefer modern more game-like MMOs.
My biggest complaints? They don't go far enough to incorporate good SP type solo content into instances.
And now that they have, we have thread after thread after thread of players asking "Where did it all go wrong?"
Is that evidence that they've done something wrong or that more people who are dissatisfied are complaining in the same places ?
Isn't that the same thing?
Not at all. You'll always have people who are unhappy no matter what they do. But peoples perceptions about what other people really think tend to be more influenced by things like ...hanging out in the complaint department. Just because everyone in there has some issue with the store doesn't mean everyone shopping there does.
Forums have become the place to go to voice your complaint about ...everything. Even if every account on this site was made by people who are unhappy with the mmo genre it's still only a drop in the bucket if you look at the big picture. Just because you see more and more posts/threads doesn't automatically mean there are more unhappy people. It could just be that more of the unhappy people are finding their way here to bitch about things.
but they have many things that make them true MMO and good RPG , things that nowadays MMORPG lacked.
"true" MMO is not desirable to me. I would much prefer modern more game-like MMOs.
My biggest complaints? They don't go far enough to incorporate good SP type solo content into instances.
And now that they have, we have thread after thread after thread of players asking "Where did it all go wrong?"
Is that evidence that they've done something wrong or that more people who are dissatisfied are complaining in the same places ?
Isn't that the same thing?
Not at all. You'll always have people who are unhappy no matter what they do. But peoples perceptions about what other people really think tend to be more influenced by things like ...hanging out in the complaint department. Just because everyone in there has some issue with the store doesn't mean everyone shopping there does.
Forums have become the place to go to voice your complaint about ...everything. Even if every account on this site was made by people who are unhappy with the mmo genre it's still only a drop in the bucket if you look at the big picture. Just because you see more and more posts/threads doesn't automatically mean there are more unhappy people. It could just be that more of the unhappy people are finding their way here to bitch about things.
^
The people that enjoy a game tend to be playing the game and not talking in forums.
but they have many things that make them true MMO and good RPG , things that nowadays MMORPG lacked.
"true" MMO is not desirable to me. I would much prefer modern more game-like MMOs.
My biggest complaints? They don't go far enough to incorporate good SP type solo content into instances.
And now that they have, we have thread after thread after thread of players asking "Where did it all go wrong?"
Is that evidence that they've done something wrong or that more people who are dissatisfied are complaining in the same places ?
Isn't that the same thing?
Not at all. You'll always have people who are unhappy no matter what they do. But peoples perceptions about what other people really think tend to be more influenced by things like ...hanging out in the complaint department. Just because everyone in there has some issue with the store doesn't mean everyone shopping there does.
Forums have become the place to go to voice your complaint about ...everything. Even if every account on this site was made by people who are unhappy with the mmo genre it's still only a drop in the bucket if you look at the big picture. Just because you see more and more posts/threads doesn't automatically mean there are more unhappy people. It could just be that more of the unhappy people are finding their way here to bitch about things.
Sure, And I also get that we have many decent financial reports suggesting that people are still playing these games. The genre is still very much alive.
But what about the fact that for the past 10 years, almost every single big budget MMO that launched and sold over 1 million boxes with initial subscriptions to match, watched all those high initial subscription numbers plummet to a fraction of the number within the 1st months? You don't see that as a problem? I do. It's been written off as the acceptable norm now. I don't believe that. That's just an excuse for not delivering. I see that as millions are looking for something, thinking maybe this is the game, only to be disappointed. That's a failure. And those numbers are more than just a drop in the bucket.
Originally posted by Caldrin they are all the same.. well since wow they have all been themepark clones..sure they have tiny variations but under those little variations they are all basically the same game. Saying that since kickstarter arrived we now have a load of Sandbox mmorpgs in development and even some of the big AAA developers have realised there is a market out there for other types of MMORPGs no one wants wow clones..I think the next 10 years for mmorpgs is going to be very different and a hell of a lot better. That is not to say there wont be any themepark games of coruse there will but there will bit a lot more choice for the people who dislike that type of MMORPG.
I don't blame it all on wow, but I do think there are other phenomena going into the mix to keep creating one wowpark after another Substituting more and more of total design budget into marketing instead of actual design. Grabs more people for a short time, but more leave faster The rise of the MBA; decision makers who think long term viability is a dirty concept, focus groups rule,quantity over quality, and design by spreadsheet is a viable form of creative method. Moore's Law: Basically every 2ish years HWare Dbls in performance, problem is the sWare side does not dbl in performance, it ddls+ in # of lines. This leaves something of a gap in what the HWare is capable of running and what gets run on it. Why do you think the new gen consoles are underperforming so much?
While some kick starters will shine, my prediction is the vast majority will see it as free money with even less overhead.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
They only thing old MMORPGs gave you back in the day was something new and shiny. It's been years since you played the first few MMORPGS, the novelty has warned off and you basically become bitter that you can't get that feeling again. It's time to look for a new genre to get that feeling again yo and stop blaming the games.
Get a load of this guy...
No, I still get that feeling from new MMOs that are done in the oldschool style. My tastes haven't changed. The games have, radically. And I think everyone can agree on that.
Everyone eh? Too funny. Get a load of this guy........
So you think that MMOs have not changed in the past 15 years? I have to wonder about anyone who thinks they have not.
The funny thing is, while it's true MMOs have changed in the last 15 years, it's also true that WE have changed. Both in our tastes, and our expectations from what we play. However, the later we conveniently tend to ignore. Because it requires us to accept responsibility for our own actions.
An interesting thing to think about is to ask anyone, literally anyone what they favorite game / mmo / etc. of all time is. Then ask them the last time they've played it. Most people over age 20 will not name a game that has released in the last few years. They will also not have played their favorite game in the last few years.
And that's because we rarely go back. We get stuck in this mindset of constant progression, always looking for the next best thing, never satisfied. It's part of the human condition, and while it can be a very good thing, it is also a double-edged sword that can prevent us from enjoying good things.
When I first realized this about myself, I went back and played a bunch of my favorite games. Do I still enjoy them? Absolutely. But they never quite live up to how we remember them being. They're still great games, but we tend to forget the problems they used to have that new games have gotten away from, and instead fixate on the new problems these newer games now have.
An interesting thing to think about is to ask anyone, literally anyone what they favorite game / mmo / etc. of all time is. Then ask them the last time they've played it. Most people over age 20 will not name a game that has released in the last few years. They will also not have played their favorite game in the last few years.
And that's because we rarely go back. We get stuck in this mindset of constant progression, always looking for the next best thing, never satisfied. It's part of the human condition, and while it can be a very good thing, it is also a double-edged sword that can prevent us from enjoying good things.
Hmmm...Well the current MMO I play was released in 2005, the other two I've stuck with for more than a couple of months were 2003 and 2007 releases. I've played them all within the last couple of years. While I try pretty much every new MMO that comes out none can hold my interest for more than a couple of weeks. So clearly your theory doesn't always hold for everyone. I sadly missed the glory days of MMOs but I genuinely prefer the older games even with their dated graphics.
Oh yeah: I play lots of newer single player games. It's just recent MMOs that I find lackluster. ArcheAge and a couple of Kickstarter games look interesting to me though so maybe I'll finally be able to stick with an MMO made in the last 5 years.
Streamlined leveling. I am tired of running around like an errandboy from hub to hub, area to area, zone to zone playing the same style of content as the other 5 MMO's that I played before, following an arrow, where everyone plays solo.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
I am so sick of people being stuck on this linear, quest grindy, reward driven, level-based progression model.
We have the ability to play these games differently, yet we chose not to and complain that they aren't different. I would love to see a change in mentality that would actually allow for different types of MMOs to exist. I would love to see more sandboxy games that don't rely heavily on quests or pvp. But I would love to see them actually thrive, instead of being really small, clunky, niche genres.
I'd love to see more RPGs using the zelda model of progression. Obtain tools to allow you to traverse more of the gameworld, over simply getting a high enough lvl to survive.
I'd love to see more interactive combat (I miss the skillchain system FFXI had, for example).
I'm not huge on crafting, but it would also be nice to see more interesting crafting systems in these games. Though again, if it's too intricate, people don't seem to bother using them.
- Though, I will also say that I've met a lot of really great people through these games. So it really has been a mixed bag. I just wish the status quo was a bit different. Maybe in a few years.
Being a gamer who turned Dev, you one of few that actually nailed the problem.. They always blame the devs, when in fact devs have little to no say in what is released in a game this is why a lot are going indie... Plus the issue is the players, look at the thread even look how many think so differently , there is no way to please everyone, this thread is a small example of what we devs see, so there you go!!
Originally posted by Shaigh Streamlined leveling. I am tired of running around like an errandboy from hub to hub, area to area, zone to zone playing the same style of content as the other 5 MMO's that I played before, following an arrow, where everyone plays solo.
Start playing sandbox's then, there are plenty with out this!!
Not at all. You'll always have people who are unhappy no matter what they do. But peoples perceptions about what other people really think tend to be more influenced by things like ...hanging out in the complaint department. Just because everyone in there has some issue with the store doesn't mean everyone shopping there does.
Forums have become the place to go to voice your complaint about ...everything. Even if every account on this site was made by people who are unhappy with the mmo genre it's still only a drop in the bucket if you look at the big picture. Just because you see more and more posts/threads doesn't automatically mean there are more unhappy people. It could just be that more of the unhappy people are finding their way here to bitch about things.
Sure, And I also get that we have many decent financial reports suggesting that people are still playing these games. The genre is still very much alive.
But what about the fact that for the past 10 years, almost every single big budget MMO that launched and sold over 1 million boxes with initial subscriptions to match, watched all those high initial subscription numbers plummet to a fraction of the number within the 1st months? You don't see that as a problem? I do. It's been written off as the acceptable norm now. I don't believe that. That's just an excuse for not delivering. I see that as millions are looking for something, thinking maybe this is the game, only to be disappointed. That's a failure. And those numbers are more than just a drop in the bucket.
Just because someone burns through scripted themepark content and quits doesn't mean they'll like a sandbox game ( which is what everyone seems to think ). It may just mean that a themepark mmo can't keep up with the content they want to be playing and thats why they hop from game to game.
Without knowing what all these people actually do after, no one can really say they never return to these games. Only speaking for myself I know I jump from game to game as they launch new content or as I feel like returning to older games, and am not looking for this holy land sandbox game that so many seem to think is the fix for everything wrong.
I think many of these so call "failed" mmos that you hear about do quite well because of the cycle of players that come and go through them. the cut and dry it was big then it wasn't doesn't paint a very realistic picture imo of player movement within the genre. The people that are happy with themepark after themepark don't mind changing games every few months to see what they've missed while they were gone. A new mmo on the market is just another game to add to the rotation. That is why the mass exodise that people think is a sign of a failing industry is really just a natural migration that players want to make.
All this of course is just my theory. I have no evidence other than how I play games and all these games that never seem to actually die. Add to that every time I go back there always seems to be so many others that just came back too.
1) The business model is outdated. Subscription-based MMORPG's typically can't produce enough content that is both meaningful enough, challenging enough, and interesting enough at a pace that will last most MMORPG players, and Free-to-play games become so paralyzed by the reliance on cash-shops and pay-to-win, nickel-and-diming mechanics that they are often completely unplayable.
2) No MMO in the last decade has effectively countered RMT, cheating, botting, duping, hacking, etc with any semblance of effectiveness. Because of this, games are brutally and mercilessly saturated with rampant, flagrant cheating. If you never experienced FFXIV, then you haven't seen how an in-game community can be absolutely eviscerated by literally endless RMT spam, cheating, botting, etc. Players literally had to disable regional/zone/say chats just to even see their chat log because it was so toxic and endless. When people can't talk, they can't interact, which means that there isn't a community developing at all.
3) The total lack of evolution in gameplay. We're still using and seeing the same combat systems, the same quest-types, the same class-archetypes, the same principle functions, the same faction-grind-oriented gameplay, the same raid-for-phat-lewt mechanics. I can confidently say that there has been 0 evolution here in 10 years. If anything, games have become easier, faster, more roller-coaster oriented and less exploratory. There's no real player-related content beyond Eve Online, there's minimal interaction between devs and players, and there's nothing separating today's MMO's from each other at all.
4) The death of challenge. Challenge doesn't mean grinding out dailies and farming mobs for loot only. Challenge doesn't mean raiding. Challenge should be ever-present throughout. When's the last time you played an MMO that presented any challenge at all, barring the last 1% of the content that involves raiding?
5) The emphasis on the "here and now" and the lack of emphasis on "Prolonged involvement". Everything in games these days is about the now now now now now, what-have-you-done-for-me-lately, and instant gratification crowd. What staying power does your modern MMO have? There are no rewards for commitments to guilds, for playing a game continuously, for being involved on the forums, etc. As such, there's no community involvement, really, because it's not about finding a guild and sticking with them, it's about "Who can help me right now, this second, with what I want?" instead of "Let's grow and develop together".
6) The communication breakdown between developers, forum moderators, and players. The place where companies can get a feel for the game's problems, what people want, what they need, what they like/dislike, what bugs are present, etc, is the forums. When's the last time you went to a game's forums that weren't completely toxic? It's either saturated with extreme whiners and ragers and liars and trolls who would do anything to wish failure on the game, or overloaded with whiteknights and apologists and propaganda artists who would assure you that the game is perfect. The medium for civilized, thoughtful, insightful conversations is further ruined by militant moderation practices (If you even tried to say anything about a bug on FFXIV's forum, you could be perma-banned; it was that serious) that filter out the real news more often than not.
But, more importantly of all....
7) The total death of the community; the thing that gives games long-lasting appeal. With no emphasis on game modes, cooperative mechanics, party mechanics, teamwork, group incentive, and even fun activities, these games all feel like single-player games with an online function. This is the biggest complaint, to me, because without a community, there's no immersion, and without immersion, there's no passion or interest. Without that, I can't delve into a game nightly and be excited... and I haven't seen a true community since FFXI some 8 years ago. That's just sad
You may feel this way, not bashing you stating a fact, I went from gamer to dev to see the other side as I blamed some things on devs, but what you want, others will not, and there are so many people who all want some different. I been part of a team who made a game with more multi player, then you have people screaming I want solo play!!!!
Look at arche age they are pushing for group play, with crafting and people are like I want to solo it all!!11 So this is a small example of why MMO's are messed up, over 10 years back, we had more people liking similar things.
We have the ability to advance, heck I advance AI, UI all day on my own stuff, but I can't use it with any company I work for because they say the player base would have a heart attack if we changed a lot. The publishers turn it down.. Because the feed back for change , is so bad!! So again this is the gamers and publishers fault.
This is why I'm going on my own, and no longer working or a big company, and work for myself. I also will NOT make MMO's anymore, to many trolls and whiners. I also ran a guild for 15 years, and see all the changes I do not like. People do not want to group like they did 10 years ago.
Heck in ESO, we had over 300 people, only 10 would come on TS, and only 3 would group... So again, I see it in other guilds as well, 10 years ago, 90% of us played as a guild... So you tell me the problem again.. I see it... Being a gamer, a Dev and a guild leader, I have seen a lot, I also been gaming over 30 years..
An interesting thing to think about is to ask anyone, literally anyone what they favorite game / mmo / etc. of all time is. Then ask them the last time they've played it. Most people over age 20 will not name a game that has released in the last few years. They will also not have played their favorite game in the last few years.
And that's because we rarely go back. We get stuck in this mindset of constant progression, always looking for the next best thing, never satisfied. It's part of the human condition, and while it can be a very good thing, it is also a double-edged sword that can prevent us from enjoying good things.
When I first realized this about myself, I went back and played a bunch of my favorite games. Do I still enjoy them? Absolutely. But they never quite live up to how we remember them being. They're still great games, but we tend to forget the problems they used to have that new games have gotten away from, and instead fixate on the new problems these newer games now have.
I still play my favorite games at least once annually (yearly). Shenmue 1+2. KOTOR 1+2, Morrowind, I also load up my favorite all time MMO every so often Cough,cough,cough pre-cough. It's because I do so, but those games are always basically as I remember them. For both good and bad aspects...
Anyway that aside..I think the whole rose tinted glasses argument is a tad overstated around these parts. AT least how it's often used and the why of it. As typically people are calling for games that resemble those old games more in features yet updated to modern standards, not those old games in and of themselves. As you opened up with, games have changed a lot over the years, especially RPG's, probably more so than any other genre.
As for those changes themselves...and what I think overly nostalgic people are missing in regard to that change
I think a lot of that change came to be, to show, rather than tell, as they used to. Many aspects of old RPG's were hidden under layers of menus and corresponding numbers, rather than happening on screen. Hence why there "seemed" to be more to those old games in terms of options, it was much easier to have many options when it was not a thing actually happening before you, but rather text and a dice role.. Picking a lock (in morrowind for example) was a simple matter of using a lockpick, no mini-game, you just picked it or not based on your skill level. Today you actually pick the lock. Hence one feature takes a lot more resource to implement.
So in essence they remember those old games right, they just have a misunderstanding of why they've been seemingly "dumbed down" Those games did have more options, new games didn't abandon them to dumb down the experience, they abandoned them in favor of characters actually doing rather than imagining it. That's what the medium allows, it's not a paper, pen and dice scenario.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
My number one complaint about most modern day MMOs is that they lack immersion. Games are so focused on features, balance, storyline, etc but most seem to lack the ability to make the gamer feel attached and immersed in their character and in the game.
I know some will say that storyline is what captures the gamer but I would disagree. Sure storyline and it's delivery are important but these things by themselves do not captivate most gamers. A good example is watching a sport verses playing a sport, which is similar to what I am talking about with most modern MMOs. When I first picked up EQ and WoW I felt like I was the story, my character was part of a ever changing digital world and my purpose there was to pwn players and NPCs alike. I have yet to play a game since TBC WoW that has made me feel like that. I was never particularly immersed in the WoW storyline but I was deeply immersed in my character and I felt as if he had a purpose inside that digital world.
Ehm, and what EXACTLY is for you IMMERSION? I feel total immersion in Swtor, all Wow expansions, Aoc, TSW, ....
They only thing old MMORPGs gave you back in the day was something new and shiny. It's been years since you played the first few MMORPGS, the novelty has warned off and you basically become bitter that you can't get that feeling again. It's time to look for a new genre to get that feeling again yo and stop blaming the games.
Get a load of this guy...
No, I still get that feeling from new MMOs that are done in the oldschool style. My tastes haven't changed. The games have, radically. And I think everyone can agree on that.
Everyone eh? Too funny. Get a load of this guy........
So you think that MMOs have not changed in the past 15 years? I have to wonder about anyone who thinks they have not.
The funny thing is, while it's true MMOs have changed in the last 15 years, it's also true that WE have changed. Both in our tastes, and our expectations from what we play. However, the later we conveniently tend to ignore. Because it requires us to accept responsibility for our own actions.
An interesting thing to think about is to ask anyone, literally anyone what they favorite game / mmo / etc. of all time is. Then ask them the last time they've played it. Most people over age 20 will not name a game that has released in the last few years. They will also not have played their favorite game in the last few years.
And that's because we rarely go back. We get stuck in this mindset of constant progression, always looking for the next best thing, never satisfied. It's part of the human condition, and while it can be a very good thing, it is also a double-edged sword that can prevent us from enjoying good things.
When I first realized this about myself, I went back and played a bunch of my favorite games. Do I still enjoy them? Absolutely. But they never quite live up to how we remember them being. They're still great games, but we tend to forget the problems they used to have that new games have gotten away from, and instead fixate on the new problems these newer games now have.
I do remember problems of old mmorpgs. Biggest problems of old mmorpgs I've played are still remembered by me. Like i.e. macroing&botting almost every skill in UO. I would not play UO today because of that.
I don't fixate on current mmorpg problems though. I do simply state that current MMORPGs are not even mmorpgs by my standards. They are very diffrent games, based on difrent game concepts and build around dffrent ideas and diffrent monetization. They are just not type of games I would like to play.
PS.
I still do play some old single player games, I've played years ago and I do still enjoy them very much.
I do also play some old single player games for the first time and enjoy them.
But I have diffrent expectations towards single player and mmorpgs.
Originally posted by aesperus The funny thing is, while it's true MMOs have changed in the last 15 years, it's also true that WE have changed. Both in our tastes, and our expectations from what we play. However, the later we conveniently tend to ignore. Because it requires us to accept responsibility for our own actions.An interesting thing to think about is to ask anyone, literally anyone what they favorite game / mmo / etc. of all time is. Then ask them the last time they've played it. Most people over age 20 will not name a game that has released in the last few years. They will also not have played their favorite game in the last few years.And that's because we rarely go back. We get stuck in this mindset of constant progression, always looking for the next best thing, never satisfied. It's part of the human condition, and while it can be a very good thing, it is also a double-edged sword that can prevent us from enjoying good things.When I first realized this about myself, I went back and played a bunch of my favorite games. Do I still enjoy them? Absolutely. But they never quite live up to how we remember them being. They're still great games, but we tend to forget the problems they used to have that new games have gotten away from, and instead fixate on the new problems these newer games now have.
You are assuming quite a bit there, aren't you? I have no argument that most people change over time. However, what you assumed changed for you, also changed for me (and others). Not quite.
I still log into EQ1 (New and circa 1999) every few months and actually enjoy my time while there. I still play Master of Magic every two or three months. I play SW:KotR 1 & II maybe once a year. The difference is what *you* see as "nostalgia", I actually see as "enjoying myself", much as that may surprise you.
Progress/Change for its own sake is stupid. Automatic transmissions are a step in the progress of automobiles. Look at that progress now. We actually have to have commercials to tell drivers to PAY ATTENTION when they drive. That automatic transmission freed up our right hand and left foot. Now we get bored while driving instead of listening to our engines and shifting gears when needed. I feel the same way about MMOs. The efficiency and streamlining that came about looked interesting at first. Now, I can see that particular "progression" killed the soul of MMORPGs.
You may hardly (never?) go back. That is fine. I most certainly do. I play Madden NFL 10 instead of the newer versions (that I also have). Why? Because that is the version that I have the most fun with. I still have D-Fend (DOSBox Front End) installed to run my handful or two of old DOS games.
Really, I would like to look forward for my gaming. What I see there discourages me. So I just keep looking back.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by aesperus The funny thing is, while it's true MMOs have changed in the last 15 years, it's also true that WE have changed. Both in our tastes, and our expectations from what we play. However, the later we conveniently tend to ignore. Because it requires us to accept responsibility for our own actions.
An interesting thing to think about is to ask anyone, literally anyone what they favorite game / mmo / etc. of all time is. Then ask them the last time they've played it. Most people over age 20 will not name a game that has released in the last few years. They will also not have played their favorite game in the last few years.
And that's because we rarely go back. We get stuck in this mindset of constant progression, always looking for the next best thing, never satisfied. It's part of the human condition, and while it can be a very good thing, it is also a double-edged sword that can prevent us from enjoying good things.
When I first realized this about myself, I went back and played a bunch of my favorite games. Do I still enjoy them? Absolutely. But they never quite live up to how we remember them being. They're still great games, but we tend to forget the problems they used to have that new games have gotten away from, and instead fixate on the new problems these newer games now have.
You are assuming quite a bit there, aren't you? I have no argument that most people change over time. However, what you assumed changed for you, also changed for me (and others). Not quite.
I still log into EQ1 (New and circa 1999) every few months and actually enjoy my time while there. I still play Master of Magic every two or three months. I play SW:KotR 1 & II maybe once a year. The difference is what *you* see as "nostalgia", I actually see as "enjoying myself", much as that may surprise you.
Progress/Change for its own sake is stupid. Automatic transmissions are a step in the progress of automobiles. Look at that progress now. We actually have to have commercials to tell drivers to PAY ATTENTION when they drive. That automatic transmission freed up our right hand and left foot. Now we get bored while driving instead of listening to our engines and shifting gears when needed. I feel the same way about MMOs. The efficiency and streamlining that came about looked interesting at first. Now, I can see that particular "progression" killed the soul of MMORPGs.
You may hardly (never?) go back. That is fine. I most certainly do. I play Madden NFL 10 instead of the newer versions (that I also have). Why? Because that is the version that I have the most fun with. I still have D-Fend (DOSBox Front End) installed to run my handful or two of old DOS games.
Really, I would like to look forward for my gaming. What I see there discourages me. So I just keep looking back.
And in Europe automatic cars are a rarity. We seem to enjoy the sense of control you have over a manual car, but that is probably partly due to the difference in the roads we drive- we tend not to have grid systems or long, straight highways. Certainly in Britain having an automatic is often considered as the mark of an inferior driver. In addition, with cars you usually lose considerable acceleration in an automatic compared to its equivalent manual, so while it is an advancement in the sense of allowing the driver to do less, it is detrimental to performance.
My number one complaint about most modern day MMOs is that they lack immersion. Games are so focused on features, balance, storyline, etc but most seem to lack the ability to make the gamer feel attached and immersed in their character and in the game.
I know some will say that storyline is what captures the gamer but I would disagree. Sure storyline and it's delivery are important but these things by themselves do not captivate most gamers. A good example is watching a sport verses playing a sport, which is similar to what I am talking about with most modern MMOs. When I first picked up EQ and WoW I felt like I was the story, my character was part of a ever changing digital world and my purpose there was to pwn players and NPCs alike. I have yet to play a game since TBC WoW that has made me feel like that. I was never particularly immersed in the WoW storyline but I was deeply immersed in my character and I felt as if he had a purpose inside that digital world.
Main complaint:
when that arcade mmo WOW comes up at a "what kind of MMO shall we build?" developer meeting.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Comments
Get a load of this guy...
No, I still get that feeling from new MMOs that are done in the oldschool style. My tastes haven't changed. The games have, radically. And I think everyone can agree on that.
Everyone eh? Too funny. Get a load of this guy........
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Isn't that the same thing?
First trip to Jueno was soooo hard!
Not at all. You'll always have people who are unhappy no matter what they do. But peoples perceptions about what other people really think tend to be more influenced by things like ...hanging out in the complaint department. Just because everyone in there has some issue with the store doesn't mean everyone shopping there does.
Forums have become the place to go to voice your complaint about ...everything. Even if every account on this site was made by people who are unhappy with the mmo genre it's still only a drop in the bucket if you look at the big picture. Just because you see more and more posts/threads doesn't automatically mean there are more unhappy people. It could just be that more of the unhappy people are finding their way here to bitch about things.
^
The people that enjoy a game tend to be playing the game and not talking in forums.
Sure, And I also get that we have many decent financial reports suggesting that people are still playing these games. The genre is still very much alive.
But what about the fact that for the past 10 years, almost every single big budget MMO that launched and sold over 1 million boxes with initial subscriptions to match, watched all those high initial subscription numbers plummet to a fraction of the number within the 1st months? You don't see that as a problem? I do. It's been written off as the acceptable norm now. I don't believe that. That's just an excuse for not delivering. I see that as millions are looking for something, thinking maybe this is the game, only to be disappointed. That's a failure. And those numbers are more than just a drop in the bucket.
Substituting more and more of total design budget into marketing instead of actual design. Grabs more people for a short time, but more leave faster
The rise of the MBA; decision makers who think long term viability is a dirty concept, focus groups rule,quantity over quality, and design by spreadsheet is a viable form of creative method.
Moore's Law: Basically every 2ish years HWare Dbls in performance, problem is the sWare side does not dbl in performance, it ddls+ in # of lines. This leaves something of a gap in what the HWare is capable of running and what gets run on it. Why do you think the new gen consoles are underperforming so much?
While some kick starters will shine, my prediction is the vast majority will see it as free money with even less overhead.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
The funny thing is, while it's true MMOs have changed in the last 15 years, it's also true that WE have changed. Both in our tastes, and our expectations from what we play. However, the later we conveniently tend to ignore. Because it requires us to accept responsibility for our own actions.
An interesting thing to think about is to ask anyone, literally anyone what they favorite game / mmo / etc. of all time is. Then ask them the last time they've played it. Most people over age 20 will not name a game that has released in the last few years. They will also not have played their favorite game in the last few years.
And that's because we rarely go back. We get stuck in this mindset of constant progression, always looking for the next best thing, never satisfied. It's part of the human condition, and while it can be a very good thing, it is also a double-edged sword that can prevent us from enjoying good things.
When I first realized this about myself, I went back and played a bunch of my favorite games. Do I still enjoy them? Absolutely. But they never quite live up to how we remember them being. They're still great games, but we tend to forget the problems they used to have that new games have gotten away from, and instead fixate on the new problems these newer games now have.
Hmmm...Well the current MMO I play was released in 2005, the other two I've stuck with for more than a couple of months were 2003 and 2007 releases. I've played them all within the last couple of years. While I try pretty much every new MMO that comes out none can hold my interest for more than a couple of weeks. So clearly your theory doesn't always hold for everyone. I sadly missed the glory days of MMOs but I genuinely prefer the older games even with their dated graphics.
Oh yeah: I play lots of newer single player games. It's just recent MMOs that I find lackluster. ArcheAge and a couple of Kickstarter games look interesting to me though so maybe I'll finally be able to stick with an MMO made in the last 5 years.
Being a gamer who turned Dev, you one of few that actually nailed the problem.. They always blame the devs, when in fact devs have little to no say in what is released in a game this is why a lot are going indie... Plus the issue is the players, look at the thread even look how many think so differently , there is no way to please everyone, this thread is a small example of what we devs see, so there you go!!
Start playing sandbox's then, there are plenty with out this!!
I have so many things I find wrong but this will work.
Just because someone burns through scripted themepark content and quits doesn't mean they'll like a sandbox game ( which is what everyone seems to think ). It may just mean that a themepark mmo can't keep up with the content they want to be playing and thats why they hop from game to game.
Without knowing what all these people actually do after, no one can really say they never return to these games. Only speaking for myself I know I jump from game to game as they launch new content or as I feel like returning to older games, and am not looking for this holy land sandbox game that so many seem to think is the fix for everything wrong.
I think many of these so call "failed" mmos that you hear about do quite well because of the cycle of players that come and go through them. the cut and dry it was big then it wasn't doesn't paint a very realistic picture imo of player movement within the genre. The people that are happy with themepark after themepark don't mind changing games every few months to see what they've missed while they were gone. A new mmo on the market is just another game to add to the rotation. That is why the mass exodise that people think is a sign of a failing industry is really just a natural migration that players want to make.
All this of course is just my theory. I have no evidence other than how I play games and all these games that never seem to actually die. Add to that every time I go back there always seems to be so many others that just came back too.
You may feel this way, not bashing you stating a fact, I went from gamer to dev to see the other side as I blamed some things on devs, but what you want, others will not, and there are so many people who all want some different. I been part of a team who made a game with more multi player, then you have people screaming I want solo play!!!!
Look at arche age they are pushing for group play, with crafting and people are like I want to solo it all!!11 So this is a small example of why MMO's are messed up, over 10 years back, we had more people liking similar things.
We have the ability to advance, heck I advance AI, UI all day on my own stuff, but I can't use it with any company I work for because they say the player base would have a heart attack if we changed a lot. The publishers turn it down.. Because the feed back for change , is so bad!! So again this is the gamers and publishers fault.
This is why I'm going on my own, and no longer working or a big company, and work for myself. I also will NOT make MMO's anymore, to many trolls and whiners. I also ran a guild for 15 years, and see all the changes I do not like. People do not want to group like they did 10 years ago.
Heck in ESO, we had over 300 people, only 10 would come on TS, and only 3 would group... So again, I see it in other guilds as well, 10 years ago, 90% of us played as a guild... So you tell me the problem again.. I see it... Being a gamer, a Dev and a guild leader, I have seen a lot, I also been gaming over 30 years..
I still play my favorite games at least once annually (yearly). Shenmue 1+2. KOTOR 1+2, Morrowind, I also load up my favorite all time MMO every so often Cough,cough,cough pre-cough. It's because I do so, but those games are always basically as I remember them. For both good and bad aspects...
Anyway that aside..I think the whole rose tinted glasses argument is a tad overstated around these parts. AT least how it's often used and the why of it. As typically people are calling for games that resemble those old games more in features yet updated to modern standards, not those old games in and of themselves. As you opened up with, games have changed a lot over the years, especially RPG's, probably more so than any other genre.
As for those changes themselves...and what I think overly nostalgic people are missing in regard to that change
I think a lot of that change came to be, to show, rather than tell, as they used to. Many aspects of old RPG's were hidden under layers of menus and corresponding numbers, rather than happening on screen. Hence why there "seemed" to be more to those old games in terms of options, it was much easier to have many options when it was not a thing actually happening before you, but rather text and a dice role.. Picking a lock (in morrowind for example) was a simple matter of using a lockpick, no mini-game, you just picked it or not based on your skill level. Today you actually pick the lock. Hence one feature takes a lot more resource to implement.
So in essence they remember those old games right, they just have a misunderstanding of why they've been seemingly "dumbed down" Those games did have more options, new games didn't abandon them to dumb down the experience, they abandoned them in favor of characters actually doing rather than imagining it. That's what the medium allows, it's not a paper, pen and dice scenario.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Ehm, and what EXACTLY is for you IMMERSION? I feel total immersion in Swtor, all Wow expansions, Aoc, TSW, ....
I do remember problems of old mmorpgs. Biggest problems of old mmorpgs I've played are still remembered by me.
Like i.e. macroing&botting almost every skill in UO. I would not play UO today because of that.
I don't fixate on current mmorpg problems though. I do simply state that current MMORPGs are not even mmorpgs by my standards. They are very diffrent games, based on difrent game concepts and build around dffrent ideas and diffrent monetization. They are just not type of games I would like to play.
PS.
I still do play some old single player games, I've played years ago and I do still enjoy them very much.
I do also play some old single player games for the first time and enjoy them.
But I have diffrent expectations towards single player and mmorpgs.
I still log into EQ1 (New and circa 1999) every few months and actually enjoy my time while there. I still play Master of Magic every two or three months. I play SW:KotR 1 & II maybe once a year. The difference is what *you* see as "nostalgia", I actually see as "enjoying myself", much as that may surprise you.
Progress/Change for its own sake is stupid. Automatic transmissions are a step in the progress of automobiles. Look at that progress now. We actually have to have commercials to tell drivers to PAY ATTENTION when they drive. That automatic transmission freed up our right hand and left foot. Now we get bored while driving instead of listening to our engines and shifting gears when needed. I feel the same way about MMOs. The efficiency and streamlining that came about looked interesting at first. Now, I can see that particular "progression" killed the soul of MMORPGs.
You may hardly (never?) go back. That is fine. I most certainly do. I play Madden NFL 10 instead of the newer versions (that I also have). Why? Because that is the version that I have the most fun with. I still have D-Fend (DOSBox Front End) installed to run my handful or two of old DOS games.
Really, I would like to look forward for my gaming. What I see there discourages me. So I just keep looking back.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
And in Europe automatic cars are a rarity. We seem to enjoy the sense of control you have over a manual car, but that is probably partly due to the difference in the roads we drive- we tend not to have grid systems or long, straight highways. Certainly in Britain having an automatic is often considered as the mark of an inferior driver. In addition, with cars you usually lose considerable acceleration in an automatic compared to its equivalent manual, so while it is an advancement in the sense of allowing the driver to do less, it is detrimental to performance.
In that sense I agree with your analogy.
Main complaint:
when that arcade mmo WOW comes up at a "what kind of MMO shall we build?" developer meeting.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"