I have only one thing I feel pisses me off so much I actually want to complain about it.
Looting in groups. Especially in instances, raids etc.
My first MMO was Helgate London, and I played Helgate Global for quite a while too. I got used to having a loot-system that cut out all the bitching, drama and pickering: Everything you see is yours. What others get, it is not your business as you don't even see it. Everyone get their own loot. No rolling, no ninja-looting, no bad feelings and unhappiness. If someone got an unique-quality item, it was shown in chat. That's it.
I admit that HGG is a different game in some sorts that it does not have raids like other games as party can be only 5 person, and it is fully instanced. But loot-system like that can't be difficult to have even if party would be 10 people.
After that I went to TERA, and I was in shock. And what I know, TERA's looting system is a norm in most MMO's, so even if I haven't played most of them, my complain is valid. I hate it. I hate is so much, that I don't much play end-game-content even I have 2 lvl 60 characters. I have seen so much drama, bad manners, bitching, pickering, fighting over fucking pixels, greed, people simply being mean and ruthless and inconciderate pricks. Always someone feels bad and always someone ninja-loots and always someone just does not care a shit about others. I have zero interest in being part of that.
There is no reason why loot-system must be like that. There is no technical reason for it. So, companies want it, and people feel they loose 50% of game if they don't get to fight over damn pixel-jewelry with other. Because when someone in TERA-forum actually went and said that loot-distribute needs overhaul and it would be fine if everyone would get their own loot. People were in shock! "what, blasphemy, I want to roll! " I have no idea what psychological mechanism is behind this mentality, but companies are feeding it and obviously they feel they profit about people needing to compete against others.
This loot-system takes away all possibilities for actual co-work. Everyone is your enemy. Friends betray you over a pixel-weapon. Loot-system like this creates unnecessary hostility and envy. Some people seem to enjoy it. I don't.
So this is my first and last time I complain about MMO's. Amen.
I have only one thing I feel pisses me off so much I actually want to complain about it.
Looting in groups. Especially in instances, raids etc.
-snip-
I think that's a valid complaint. This is another reason I enjoy Guild Wars 2. Everyone gets their own loot and can trade with others or sell it if they don't need it. Or break it down for crafting materials.
I have only one thing I feel pisses me off so much I actually want to complain about it.
Looting in groups. Especially in instances, raids etc.
-snip-
I think that's a valid complaint. This is another reason I enjoy Guild Wars 2. Everyone gets their own loot and can trade with others or sell it if they don't need it. Or break it down for crafting materials.
No rolls generally equates to less loot drama.
Yeah, loot envy (and some of the worse excesses of behaviour it causes) always puts a dampener on a raid, whether you win or lose.
Likewise with the need, greed rolls in dungeons is just a recipe for arguments.
Not at all. You'll always have people who are unhappy no matter what they do. But peoples perceptions about what other people really think tend to be more influenced by things like ...hanging out in the complaint department. Just because everyone in there has some issue with the store doesn't mean everyone shopping there does.
Forums have become the place to go to voice your complaint about ...everything. Even if every account on this site was made by people who are unhappy with the mmo genre it's still only a drop in the bucket if you look at the big picture. Just because you see more and more posts/threads doesn't automatically mean there are more unhappy people. It could just be that more of the unhappy people are finding their way here to bitch about things.
Sure, And I also get that we have many decent financial reports suggesting that people are still playing these games. The genre is still very much alive.
But what about the fact that for the past 10 years, almost every single big budget MMO that launched and sold over 1 million boxes with initial subscriptions to match, watched all those high initial subscription numbers plummet to a fraction of the number within the 1st months? You don't see that as a problem? I do. It's been written off as the acceptable norm now. I don't believe that. That's just an excuse for not delivering. I see that as millions are looking for something, thinking maybe this is the game, only to be disappointed. That's a failure. And those numbers are more than just a drop in the bucket.
Just because someone burns through scripted themepark content and quits doesn't mean they'll like a sandbox game ( which is what everyone seems to think ). It may just mean that a themepark mmo can't keep up with the content they want to be playing and thats why they hop from game to game.
Without knowing what all these people actually do after, no one can really say they never return to these games. Only speaking for myself I know I jump from game to game as they launch new content or as I feel like returning to older games, and am not looking for this holy land sandbox game that so many seem to think is the fix for everything wrong.
I think many of these so call "failed" mmos that you hear about do quite well because of the cycle of players that come and go through them. the cut and dry it was big then it wasn't doesn't paint a very realistic picture imo of player movement within the genre. The people that are happy with themepark after themepark don't mind changing games every few months to see what they've missed while they were gone. A new mmo on the market is just another game to add to the rotation. That is why the mass exodise that people think is a sign of a failing industry is really just a natural migration that players want to make.
All this of course is just my theory. I have no evidence other than how I play games and all these games that never seem to actually die. Add to that every time I go back there always seems to be so many others that just came back too.
Yes, The same goes for me as well. The "This is my theory" part. I guess we are both looking at the same result from different angles. There is merit to what you are saying though, and I am certain it does indeed account for many player's feelings. But then again, maybe there is a little of both going on. Since I would still say that the fact that a player can (and so many do) burn through that content so quickly is part of the problem.
Edit:
Also, going back and looking at this 10+ page thread here, looking at some of the individual posts people have made and I have to think many of these posts are valid. Some more than others but still, there are plenty of legitimate concerns here. Also the other thread about getting players to return to GW2. That thread is specific to GW2, but many of the issues people are posting in there apply to the genre beyond GW2 itself. These issues do impact players beyond this forum. and that just because someone is still subbed to WoW or SWTOR doesn't mean they wouldn't immediately switch to the next new MMO to truly offer a better experience. After all, most of the people who posted in these 2 threads are still playing their games too.
My biggest complaint is how gear is handed out to all players. I wish games were designed were the adventurues would get crafting matts only to sell to crafters which would provide all the gear to the players.
The last two mmo's that I've played, which were GW2 and ffxiv arr. Both of those games their were npc's all over the place that pretty much had all the gear you would ever nead. Plus just doing the quest's and dungeons gear you up completely anyways.
Gear is handed out in so many different ways with modern mmo's, that I feel like it has totally destroyed the player driven economy that we used to have.
I love to craft, but it seems pointless to do so these days
Is someone still seriously trying to argue that MMOs haven't changed as much as our own tastes have, and that its not developers fault that the genre is stuck in freefall?
No. I still have fun in old MMOs. They are designed VERY differently.
It's amazing what happens when you have MMOs designed for a niche audience by hardcore fans of the genre that want to create a virtual world experience, by people who know what they're doing.
vs modern MMOs that are designed by publishers to mimic WoW, and crash and burn right away because they're basically designed ENCOURAGING people to quit and be anti social
Is someone still seriously trying to argue that MMOs haven't changed as much as our own tastes have, and that its not developers fault that the genre is stuck in freefall?
No. I still have fun in old MMOs. They are designed VERY differently.
It's amazing what happens when you have MMOs designed for a niche audience by hardcore fans of the genre that want to create a virtual world experience, by people who know what they're doing.
vs modern MMOs that are designed by publishers to mimic WoW, and crash and burn right away because they're basically designed ENCOURAGING people to quit and be anti social
The developers got smart and started to develop better games for more people making a ton more money. Keep living in the past with your niche games that barely anyone wants to play while the majority of us enjoy the far superior games with millions playing. The numbers don't lie.
Is someone still seriously trying to argue that MMOs haven't changed as much as our own tastes have, and that its not developers fault that the genre is stuck in freefall?
No. I still have fun in old MMOs. They are designed VERY differently.
It's amazing what happens when you have MMOs designed for a niche audience by hardcore fans of the genre that want to create a virtual world experience, by people who know what they're doing.
vs modern MMOs that are designed by publishers to mimic WoW, and crash and burn right away because they're basically designed ENCOURAGING people to quit and be anti social
The developers got smart and started to develop better games for more people making a ton more money. Keep living in the past with your niche games that barely anyone wants to play while the majority of us enjoy the far superior games with millions playing. The numbers don't lie.
No indeed they do not. And the numbers show bigger budgets, bigger development teams, and much MUCH shorter lived games.
Better games? Not at all. Better advertised games? Yes.
Games like STO, CO, AoC, Rift, SWTOR, LotRO, all peaked within a month of launch and then went into rapid decline, causing server mergers, shrinking staff, bankruptcy, before leveling out with LESS subscribers than most pre WoW MMOs had at their peaks.
That's why Mythic imploded, right? Because they made better games with EA pulling the strings? THat's why Funcom swore off MMOs after two huge disasters? That's why Turbine hasn't done anything in years? That's why SoE scrapped EQ3 and entirely remade it to be radically different, because WoW style themeparks are doing so well? That's why SWTOR laid off 80% of its development team? That's why Trion merged Rift servers 3 times before going FTP, and twice more since then?
1. Character progression. It ends too quickly, most games put a cap on your leveling and then offer very little to do. Typically, very few raids, PvP, or craft.
Raids:
Raid progression has become too easy. Raids are too small in general and do not require too much in regards of multiple player skills. It seems as if raids are less focused on the accomplishment of finishing a difficult boss than the focus of beating a particular boss or entire raid in as little time as possible.
Lack of raid content. The ease of leveling allows players to quickly reach max level and jump right into the lack of end game content. Ultimately, leaving players bored because they have to wait for each game update or expansion to actually have something to progress their character.
PVP:
In general the whole pvp concept needs to be reworked. Honor point systems to buy items and gear in my opinion just offers a repetitive alternative to raiding. If the system was used in a way to enhance your character I would enjoy it much more. Examples could be turning the honor system into another form of experience, which can be used to purchase (not pvp only) abilities and stats. Another way to to offer character progression in an alternate form of of pve grinding. ( A lot can be done with PvP- but the idea of PvP being a completely separate entity of the game just ruins it for me)
Crafting:
For most it is hit or miss, you enjoy it or you hate it. Not all but many large games seem to make crafting easy for everyone. Crafting scales too much with your level progression making it something everybody does. (Ex. Low level zones have the materials for 1-25 skill, then the next set of zones is 26-50... boring) I have always hated crafting, but any more it seems I always have a character maxed out in some crafting skill and it really is just because it goes along with leveling too fluently.
2. The community, it no longer exists. It use to mean something it does not any more. The gaming community is very negative and unfriendly. Due to the minimal need for player interaction to complete game content, people do not care about their reputation any more. Additionally, it is too easy to form a guild that people have guilds for each alt they have. Many games now require you to just come up with a name not in use to make a guild. Games need to bring back the importance of a guild.
Is someone still seriously trying to argue that MMOs haven't changed as much as our own tastes have, and that its not developers fault that the genre is stuck in freefall?
No. I still have fun in old MMOs. They are designed VERY differently.
It's amazing what happens when you have MMOs designed for a niche audience by hardcore fans of the genre that want to create a virtual world experience, by people who know what they're doing.
vs modern MMOs that are designed by publishers to mimic WoW, and crash and burn right away because they're basically designed ENCOURAGING people to quit and be anti social
The developers got smart and started to develop better games for more people making a ton more money. Keep living in the past with your niche games that barely anyone wants to play while the majority of us enjoy the far superior games with millions playing. The numbers don't lie.
This does not automatically equate to a better game. Same with the idea that a game with "millions playing" is a better game. Mass appeal =/= quality experience.
It's all subjective and I believe that while we have seen an increase in individual game's starting populations, we have seen a proportionate decrease in their long term retention.
Is someone still seriously trying to argue that MMOs haven't changed as much as our own tastes have, and that its not developers fault that the genre is stuck in freefall?
No. I still have fun in old MMOs. They are designed VERY differently.
It's amazing what happens when you have MMOs designed for a niche audience by hardcore fans of the genre that want to create a virtual world experience, by people who know what they're doing.
vs modern MMOs that are designed by publishers to mimic WoW, and crash and burn right away because they're basically designed ENCOURAGING people to quit and be anti social
The developers got smart and started to develop better games for more people making a ton more money. Keep living in the past with your niche games that barely anyone wants to play while the majority of us enjoy the far superior games with millions playing. The numbers don't lie.
This does not automatically equate to a better game. Same with the idea that a game with "millions playing" is a better game. Mass appeal =/= quality experience.
It's all subjective and I believe that while we have seen an increase in individual game's starting populations, we have seen a proportionate decrease in their long term retention.
Always that stupid argument. No, it definitely makes better games for most people.
The stupid argument would be from the guy trying to prove that an opinion is a fact. Of course you were not fully convinced yourself and added the line... for most people.
Always that stupid argument. No, it definitely makes better games for most people.
While I believe that you're trolling I will bite...
Other than WoW and FFXIV what games have millions of players? Let's go one step further and ask what games that have released in the last 5 years have had a steady increase in players as opposed to a steady decrease in players? Your comments suggest that the masses like the direction that MMO industry has chosen while the numbers say differently. A game releasing with 2 million players that has 1 million players 2 months later is not a "success", it's just the opposite. A good game should be able to retain and even add new players over the course of it's first year... We have yet to see that since TBC WoW with the exception of FFXIV.
1. Character progression. It ends too quickly, most games put a cap on your leveling and then offer very little to do. Typically, very few raids, PvP, or craft.
Raids:
Raid progression has become too easy. Raids are too small in general and do not require too much in regards of multiple player skills. It seems as if raids are less focused on the accomplishment of finishing a difficult boss than the focus of beating a particular boss or entire raid in as little time as possible.
Lack of raid content. The ease of leveling allows players to quickly reach max level and jump right into the lack of end game content. Ultimately, leaving players bored because they have to wait for each game update or expansion to actually have something to progress their character.
PVP:
In general the whole pvp concept needs to be reworked. Honor point systems to buy items and gear in my opinion just offers a repetitive alternative to raiding. If the system was used in a way to enhance your character I would enjoy it much more. Examples could be turning the honor system into another form of experience, which can be used to purchase (not pvp only) abilities and stats. Another way to to offer character progression in an alternate form of of pve grinding. ( A lot can be done with PvP- but the idea of PvP being a completely separate entity of the game just ruins it for me)
Crafting:
For most it is hit or miss, you enjoy it or you hate it. Not all but many large games seem to make crafting easy for everyone. Crafting scales too much with your level progression making it something everybody does. (Ex. Low level zones have the materials for 1-25 skill, then the next set of zones is 26-50... boring) I have always hated crafting, but any more it seems I always have a character maxed out in some crafting skill and it really is just because it goes along with leveling too fluently.
2. The community, it no longer exists. It use to mean something it does not any more. The gaming community is very negative and unfriendly. Due to the minimal need for player interaction to complete game content, people do not care about their reputation any more. Additionally, it is too easy to form a guild that people have guilds for each alt they have. Many games now require you to just come up with a name not in use to make a guild. Games need to bring back the importance of a guild.
Nice post. You pretty much sum up what's so wrong with modern MMOs.
It's not about graphics, it's not about new features or mini-games. It's all about character progression!
If you take that part away or make it too trivial, the whole game is destroyed, period!
WoW was the beginning of the end for socializing. It's gameplay actively discouraged people from playing together unless they were a part of a preestablished clique or guild. WoW still had some leftover socializing from pre WoW MMOs and people getting into MMOs for the first time and wanting to talk to all the people around them. But that quickly went away, as the game forced people into raid guilds and instances and solo quest grinding.
There was almost no reason to actually group or interact with strangers in WoW, so people didn't do it. Or if a random group quest FORCED you to be with some stranger, you left that group as soon as the quest was done and never talked again.
I'm always shocked when people remember WOW as being social. But I guess that's what happens when WoW's your first MMO and you have nothing else to compare it to.
There are a number of things that make MMOs less social, for one thing the games are so easy nowadays that you only need to group for dungeons and raids in most games, in games like M59, Lineage and EQ you needed a group to beat many opponents in the open world as well. As a soloplayer you had to know when to run and gather a group or ignore larger monsters.
Another thing is that silly loot mechanics, need or greed. Getting ninjad a couple of times can turn most people antisocial.
Locking encounters doesn't help either, as do AH instead of player owned stores.
But MMO people used to be a rather small group of people, most also played pen and paper games and were interested in computers as general. You can't get that tight socially in a genre with many millions of players no matter what you do.
That doesn't mean that MMOs shouldn't focus more on bringing players together of course. And use instancing and phasing very carefully since not seeing other players makes socializing impossible.
Is someone still seriously trying to argue that MMOs haven't changed as much as our own tastes have, and that its not developers fault that the genre is stuck in freefall?
No. I still have fun in old MMOs. They are designed VERY differently.
It's amazing what happens when you have MMOs designed for a niche audience by hardcore fans of the genre that want to create a virtual world experience, by people who know what they're doing.
vs modern MMOs that are designed by publishers to mimic WoW, and crash and burn right away because they're basically designed ENCOURAGING people to quit and be anti social
The developers got smart and started to develop better games for more people making a ton more money. Keep living in the past with your niche games that barely anyone wants to play while the majority of us enjoy the far superior games with millions playing. The numbers don't lie.
This does not automatically equate to a better game. Same with the idea that a game with "millions playing" is a better game. Mass appeal =/= quality experience.
It's all subjective and I believe that while we have seen an increase in individual game's starting populations, we have seen a proportionate decrease in their long term retention.
Always that stupid argument. No, it definitely makes better games for most people.
And I still believe that in the case of many of those "for most people" you are speaking for, they are playing what they consider to be the best of the worst. The brightest shiney they could find from garbage picking. And that with each new big budget title to release comes the promise of a better experience that millions flock to, only to find 2 months later it wasn't.
Is someone still seriously trying to argue that MMOs haven't changed as much as our own tastes have, and that its not developers fault that the genre is stuck in freefall?
No. I still have fun in old MMOs. They are designed VERY differently.
It's amazing what happens when you have MMOs designed for a niche audience by hardcore fans of the genre that want to create a virtual world experience, by people who know what they're doing.
vs modern MMOs that are designed by publishers to mimic WoW, and crash and burn right away because they're basically designed ENCOURAGING people to quit and be anti social
The developers got smart and started to develop better games for more people making a ton more money. Keep living in the past with your niche games that barely anyone wants to play while the majority of us enjoy the far superior games with millions playing. The numbers don't lie.
This does not automatically equate to a better game. Same with the idea that a game with "millions playing" is a better game. Mass appeal =/= quality experience.
It's all subjective and I believe that while we have seen an increase in individual game's starting populations, we have seen a proportionate decrease in their long term retention.
Always that stupid argument. No, it definitely makes better games for most people.
And I still believe that in the case of many of those "for most people" you are speaking for, they are playing what they consider to be the best of the worst. The brightest shiney they could find from garbage picking. And that with each new big budget title to release comes the promise of a better experience that millions flock to, only to find 2 months later it wasn't.
Right, keep telling yourself that to make you feel better.
Is someone still seriously trying to argue that MMOs haven't changed as much as our own tastes have, and that its not developers fault that the genre is stuck in freefall?
No. I still have fun in old MMOs. They are designed VERY differently.
It's amazing what happens when you have MMOs designed for a niche audience by hardcore fans of the genre that want to create a virtual world experience, by people who know what they're doing.
vs modern MMOs that are designed by publishers to mimic WoW, and crash and burn right away because they're basically designed ENCOURAGING people to quit and be anti social
The developers got smart and started to develop better games for more people making a ton more money. Keep living in the past with your niche games that barely anyone wants to play while the majority of us enjoy the far superior games with millions playing. The numbers don't lie.
This does not automatically equate to a better game. Same with the idea that a game with "millions playing" is a better game. Mass appeal =/= quality experience.
It's all subjective and I believe that while we have seen an increase in individual game's starting populations, we have seen a proportionate decrease in their long term retention.
Always that stupid argument. No, it definitely makes better games for most people.
And I still believe that in the case of many of those "for most people" you are speaking for, they are playing what they consider to be the best of the worst. The brightest shiney they could find from garbage picking. And that with each new big budget title to release comes the promise of a better experience that millions flock to, only to find 2 months later it wasn't.
Right, keep telling yourself that to make you feel better.
Yeah, It seems I have to since I can't sleep at night......
Complaint? Why would anyone complain? Every other MMO released these days is pretty much a rehash of the ones that preceded. Sure, the graphics and characters might be different but gameplay is still pretty much the same as is so-called "end game". If you have done it all before, it gets boring really really fast.
And I still believe that in the case of many of those "for most people" you are speaking for, they are playing what they consider to be the best of the worst. The brightest shiney they could find from garbage picking. And that with each new big budget title to release comes the promise of a better experience that millions flock to, only to find 2 months later it wasn't.
Right, keep telling yourself that to make you feel better.
Yeah, It seems I have to since I can't sleep at night......
LOL, what kind of reply was that?
A response to your comment, not my fault you fail to understand it.
Complaint? Why would anyone complain? Every other MMO released these days is pretty much a rehash of the ones that preceded. Sure, the graphics and characters might be different but gameplay is still pretty much the same as is so-called "end game". If you have done it all before, it gets boring really really fast.
I am hooked on the dark souls games now,thank good ness I don't care about the "normal" mmos anymore.
you know dark souls are not easy and that is not why I play it is just good,and the feeling of accomplishment when you beat the game is great.
I play it over and over just to play with others,i hope we will get every year a game from soft ware and one from sony that got the original developer now.
mmos don't work for me anymore the recipe that dark souls follows are the best gaming experience for me,so mush so ill buy a ps4 just for bloodborne and I love my pc!
Is someone still seriously trying to argue that MMOs haven't changed as much as our own tastes have, and that its not developers fault that the genre is stuck in freefall?
No. I still have fun in old MMOs. They are designed VERY differently.
It's amazing what happens when you have MMOs designed for a niche audience by hardcore fans of the genre that want to create a virtual world experience, by people who know what they're doing.
vs modern MMOs that are designed by publishers to mimic WoW, and crash and burn right away because they're basically designed ENCOURAGING people to quit and be anti social
The developers got smart and started to develop better games for more people making a ton more money. Keep living in the past with your niche games that barely anyone wants to play while the majority of us enjoy the far superior games with millions playing. The numbers don't lie.
Er, outside of WOW, what single MMORPG has "millions" playing. FFXIV perhaps, but who else? Lineage 1? Wait, that's old school. Just curious how many games have subscribers exceed EVE's 400-500K which is clearly a niche title?
And please, don't point to MOBA's or some other type game, that's players leaving the genre and don't count.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
I have only one thing I feel pisses me off so much I actually want to complain about it.
Looting in groups. Especially in instances, raids etc.
My first MMO was Helgate London, and I played Helgate Global for quite a while too. I got used to having a loot-system that cut out all the bitching, drama and pickering: Everything you see is yours. What others get, it is not your business as you don't even see it. Everyone get their own loot. No rolling, no ninja-looting, no bad feelings and unhappiness. If someone got an unique-quality item, it was shown in chat. That's it.
I admit that HGG is a different game in some sorts that it does not have raids like other games as party can be only 5 person, and it is fully instanced. But loot-system like that can't be difficult to have even if party would be 10 people.
After that I went to TERA, and I was in shock. And what I know, TERA's looting system is a norm in most MMO's, so even if I haven't played most of them, my complain is valid. I hate it. I hate is so much, that I don't much play end-game-content even I have 2 lvl 60 characters. I have seen so much drama, bad manners, bitching, pickering, fighting over fucking pixels, greed, people simply being mean and ruthless and inconciderate pricks. Always someone feels bad and always someone ninja-loots and always someone just does not care a shit about others. I have zero interest in being part of that.
There is no reason why loot-system must be like that. There is no technical reason for it. So, companies want it, and people feel they loose 50% of game if they don't get to fight over damn pixel-jewelry with other. Because when someone in TERA-forum actually went and said that loot-distribute needs overhaul and it would be fine if everyone would get their own loot. People were in shock! "what, blasphemy, I want to roll! " I have no idea what psychological mechanism is behind this mentality, but companies are feeding it and obviously they feel they profit about people needing to compete against others.
This loot-system takes away all possibilities for actual co-work. Everyone is your enemy. Friends betray you over a pixel-weapon. Loot-system like this creates unnecessary hostility and envy. Some people seem to enjoy it. I don't.
So this is my first and last time I complain about MMO's. Amen.
I think that's a valid complaint. This is another reason I enjoy Guild Wars 2. Everyone gets their own loot and can trade with others or sell it if they don't need it. Or break it down for crafting materials.
No rolls generally equates to less loot drama.
Yeah, loot envy (and some of the worse excesses of behaviour it causes) always puts a dampener on a raid, whether you win or lose.
Likewise with the need, greed rolls in dungeons is just a recipe for arguments.
Yes, The same goes for me as well. The "This is my theory" part. I guess we are both looking at the same result from different angles. There is merit to what you are saying though, and I am certain it does indeed account for many player's feelings. But then again, maybe there is a little of both going on. Since I would still say that the fact that a player can (and so many do) burn through that content so quickly is part of the problem.
Edit:
Also, going back and looking at this 10+ page thread here, looking at some of the individual posts people have made and I have to think many of these posts are valid. Some more than others but still, there are plenty of legitimate concerns here. Also the other thread about getting players to return to GW2. That thread is specific to GW2, but many of the issues people are posting in there apply to the genre beyond GW2 itself. These issues do impact players beyond this forum. and that just because someone is still subbed to WoW or SWTOR doesn't mean they wouldn't immediately switch to the next new MMO to truly offer a better experience. After all, most of the people who posted in these 2 threads are still playing their games too.
My biggest complaint is how gear is handed out to all players. I wish games were designed were the adventurues would get crafting matts only to sell to crafters which would provide all the gear to the players.
The last two mmo's that I've played, which were GW2 and ffxiv arr. Both of those games their were npc's all over the place that pretty much had all the gear you would ever nead. Plus just doing the quest's and dungeons gear you up completely anyways.
Gear is handed out in so many different ways with modern mmo's, that I feel like it has totally destroyed the player driven economy that we used to have.
I love to craft, but it seems pointless to do so these days
Is someone still seriously trying to argue that MMOs haven't changed as much as our own tastes have, and that its not developers fault that the genre is stuck in freefall?
No. I still have fun in old MMOs. They are designed VERY differently.
It's amazing what happens when you have MMOs designed for a niche audience by hardcore fans of the genre that want to create a virtual world experience, by people who know what they're doing.
vs modern MMOs that are designed by publishers to mimic WoW, and crash and burn right away because they're basically designed ENCOURAGING people to quit and be anti social
The developers got smart and started to develop better games for more people making a ton more money. Keep living in the past with your niche games that barely anyone wants to play while the majority of us enjoy the far superior games with millions playing.
The numbers don't lie.
No indeed they do not. And the numbers show bigger budgets, bigger development teams, and much MUCH shorter lived games.
Better games? Not at all. Better advertised games? Yes.
Games like STO, CO, AoC, Rift, SWTOR, LotRO, all peaked within a month of launch and then went into rapid decline, causing server mergers, shrinking staff, bankruptcy, before leveling out with LESS subscribers than most pre WoW MMOs had at their peaks.
That's why Mythic imploded, right? Because they made better games with EA pulling the strings? THat's why Funcom swore off MMOs after two huge disasters? That's why Turbine hasn't done anything in years? That's why SoE scrapped EQ3 and entirely remade it to be radically different, because WoW style themeparks are doing so well? That's why SWTOR laid off 80% of its development team? That's why Trion merged Rift servers 3 times before going FTP, and twice more since then?
[mod edit]
Very difficult to narrow it down.
1. Character progression. It ends too quickly, most games put a cap on your leveling and then offer very little to do. Typically, very few raids, PvP, or craft.
Raids:
They are still primarily combat centric. Which I guess is more a reflection on the stagnation of humanity.
This does not automatically equate to a better game. Same with the idea that a game with "millions playing" is a better game. Mass appeal =/= quality experience.
It's all subjective and I believe that while we have seen an increase in individual game's starting populations, we have seen a proportionate decrease in their long term retention.
The stupid argument would be from the guy trying to prove that an opinion is a fact. Of course you were not fully convinced yourself and added the line... for most people.
Well according to your "argument" all MMOs, even WoW, suck compared to great games like FarmVille and Call of Duty XXVIII.
While I believe that you're trolling I will bite...
Other than WoW and FFXIV what games have millions of players? Let's go one step further and ask what games that have released in the last 5 years have had a steady increase in players as opposed to a steady decrease in players? Your comments suggest that the masses like the direction that MMO industry has chosen while the numbers say differently. A game releasing with 2 million players that has 1 million players 2 months later is not a "success", it's just the opposite. A good game should be able to retain and even add new players over the course of it's first year... We have yet to see that since TBC WoW with the exception of FFXIV.
Nice post. You pretty much sum up what's so wrong with modern MMOs.
It's not about graphics, it's not about new features or mini-games. It's all about character progression!
If you take that part away or make it too trivial, the whole game is destroyed, period!
Agreed with the community part too, ofc.
There are a number of things that make MMOs less social, for one thing the games are so easy nowadays that you only need to group for dungeons and raids in most games, in games like M59, Lineage and EQ you needed a group to beat many opponents in the open world as well. As a soloplayer you had to know when to run and gather a group or ignore larger monsters.
Another thing is that silly loot mechanics, need or greed. Getting ninjad a couple of times can turn most people antisocial.
Locking encounters doesn't help either, as do AH instead of player owned stores.
But MMO people used to be a rather small group of people, most also played pen and paper games and were interested in computers as general. You can't get that tight socially in a genre with many millions of players no matter what you do.
That doesn't mean that MMOs shouldn't focus more on bringing players together of course. And use instancing and phasing very carefully since not seeing other players makes socializing impossible.
Yes, they are better games for most people. Most people don't even like MMORPGS.
And I still believe that in the case of many of those "for most people" you are speaking for, they are playing what they consider to be the best of the worst. The brightest shiney they could find from garbage picking. And that with each new big budget title to release comes the promise of a better experience that millions flock to, only to find 2 months later it wasn't.
Right, keep telling yourself that to make you feel better.
Yeah, It seems I have to since I can't sleep at night......
LOL, what kind of reply was that?
Complaint? Why would anyone complain? Every other MMO released these days is pretty much a rehash of the ones that preceded. Sure, the graphics and characters might be different but gameplay is still pretty much the same as is so-called "end game". If you have done it all before, it gets boring really really fast.
Let's party like it is 1863!
A response to your comment, not my fault you fail to understand it.
But......But......
WildStar has "Eldergame"
I am hooked on the dark souls games now,thank good ness I don't care about the "normal" mmos anymore.
you know dark souls are not easy and that is not why I play it is just good,and the feeling of accomplishment when you beat the game is great.
I play it over and over just to play with others,i hope we will get every year a game from soft ware and one from sony that got the original developer now.
mmos don't work for me anymore the recipe that dark souls follows are the best gaming experience for me,so mush so ill buy a ps4 just for bloodborne and I love my pc!
Er, outside of WOW, what single MMORPG has "millions" playing. FFXIV perhaps, but who else? Lineage 1? Wait, that's old school. Just curious how many games have subscribers exceed EVE's 400-500K which is clearly a niche title?
And please, don't point to MOBA's or some other type game, that's players leaving the genre and don't count.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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