Originally posted by Loktofeit Because I'm not playing just for the next ding.Because I'm playing for the social interaction and the roleplay.Because I don't really care how soon I get my next tier of gear.Because I don't really care if I ever reach the level cap.Because 'earning my way' and 'paying my dues' are what I do in real life. My gaming is for mindless fun.Because my first MUD and MMO experiences had nothing to do with grind, so that's how I continue to play MMOsBecause most MMOs are so linear and finite that all grinding will do is get me to the end faster.Because I'm paying to be entertained, and I don't find laborious tasks entertaining. *cue the 'instant gratification' comments from MMO flagellates weened on EQ and WOW*
That is an awesome list, Lok!
I did not start as early as you, but I never did like "grinding" in EQ or WoW. It was (and still is) counterproductive to what I want to do
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
IMO grinding can carry a positive or negative connotation depending if the grinding is fun to the player. An MMO that didn't seem like a grind to anyone would be impossible unless the content always changed. There is a title purporting that but is yet to be played. In the meantime MMO content must be available to x amount of players at any one time so it has to be predicable and repetitive so everyone gets a turn.
Being able to buy anything in the game is a completely different issue. In this day and age monetization is an unfortunate reality outside, or even inside, a sub. Want to buy anything? Sure, but it should be monetized by the time it would take a player to earn it in the game. Maybe $10.00 an hour? After all, that's the argument for having anything buyable, more money than time to play so monetizing by time makes sense. Also, the item should be earned first by normal means first to "unlock" it.
Originally posted by Aelious IMO grinding can carry a positive or negative connotation depending if the grinding is fun to the player.
To me it's just gameplay when it's fun. Grind is when its unfun or you're bored with it but you keep doing it to get some reward.
If you think grind can be fun then what part of playing a game isn't grind to you?
It's a matter of definition. I consider "grinding" a repetitive action to achieve some reward, whether that be advancement or items. IMO it's enjoyment neutral. The problem I have with giving "grinding" an automatically negative connotation is it allows someone to pick and choose what they consider grinding based on what they like. There is no true barometer past a subjective opinion.
MMOs are made up of grinds covered in story arcs and progression milestones. Say you play an MMO for six months. How many activities are you really doing once or twice? Some MMOs do a better job of making their grinds fun than others but they are still there.
Sometimes I like some mindless grinding. When I am tired from my day at work, I just want to relax, kill some mobs, and chat with people. Sometimes I want something that requires more work like doing a mission, quest or killing a specific mob. Sometimes I wish I could more easily get equipment or levels, but that usually doesn't happen until I've played the game to max level and I don't want to go through the leveling/gear grind again with a new character. I think some kind of veteran reward should be in place like faster leveling or perhaps new characters can start at a certain higher level with certain equipment. City of Heroes did all of this very well. You had fun mindless grinding, you had missions, quests for when you wanted to do something less mindless, and you had veteran rewards. Thank God there is a group looking to buy the rights to City of Heroes and reopen it.
i know i get heat for this but; games that sell all gear in a cash shop, should imho also let players undercut these cash shops with grindmade gear for real cash. this would keep the dev cash shop part of the game and a reliable value would level out of it.
Some people think that grinding equals fun. Doing the same things over and over again.
Why is that?
I'm very happy to see that many MMOs allow us to buy things instead of grinding for them. IMO everything in a game should be able for purchasing. Equipment, races, levels and what have you.
they make it grindy on purpose so they can get more money from you to avoid grinding. If you cant see this then i dont know what to tell you.
Grinding sucks, but milking customers to "avoid" the grind is plain bullshit. Design the game properly and you will earn the money you deserve.
Grinding is different things to different people. I'm sure you engage in something that is considered 'grinding' to others, you just don't recognize it as such.
As for your comment about purchasing stuff like levels and the like... NO, that is bypassing the entire purpose of the game. MMos that are focused around end game still should have players LEARN. If you just jump to max you don't learn anything. A good example is if you look at WoW and just how blatently bad people can be on it, beyond what you see in other MMos due to buying that boosted level without knowing the class they play.
An RPG is about EARNING what you have. Being able to buy it removes the purpose for working for it to begin with. Its fine in some small cases, but everything is a terrible idea. Not to mention the fact games that allow you to buy stuff rather then 'grind' for it are manipulating you, purposely making things more tedious in order for you to be more likely to buy it, something terrible anti-consumer.
SWG had a meta grind just like every other game, and it was equally as boring as Ever Quest. If I remember to correctly it was Talus>Dantooine>Endor. With the old meta leveling method, a player could grind out a combat class in less than a day, depending on the class of course.
The goal would be to mask the grind in absolute wonder and freedom, moreover farming monsters should be the base-line gain of estimated time to level. Anything a player does besides grinding monsters should reward the player with higher EXP per minute.
Currently no game in development or released has created a solution to grind. That doesn't mean that they haven't tried, but eventually you find that you're still grinding mobs for the best EXP. The closest I've experienced was in early release of Guild Wars 2 where you could exploit pure karma crafting to achieve max level.
Even in Black Desert Online, AoE mob farming is the fastest way to level, and story quests become forced upon you in order to attain skill points.
Originally posted by An4thor There are different types of grind. Betwen a very long grind with no limits and a very short grind with limits (with equal rewards) i prefer the latter. I don't mind grinding; but time is money. Do i find it fun? Depends, if i play my favourite music in the backgroud i don't even notice what i'm doing after a while.
A little Barry Manilow does make the grind pass more quickly.
Originally posted by An4thor There are different types of grind. Betwen a very long grind with no limits and a very short grind with limits (with equal rewards) i prefer the latter. I don't mind grinding; but time is money. Do i find it fun? Depends, if i play my favourite music in the backgroud i don't even notice what i'm doing after a while.
A little Barry Manilow does make the grind pass more quickly.
HAH!!!
Lol'd. Barry can solve any problem!
I don't mind grinding if there's a tangible result at the end of the road. Considering the other thread about whether players are task-oriented in real life, I kinda feel like there's a significant distinction in mindsets; namely those who enjoy just plodding along doing whatever (i.e. enjoy grinding to a degree) and those who are goal-oriented and want to get through the grinding as quickly as possible and thus probably don't enjoy it.
I tend to fall into the goal-oriented and grinding is purely a means to an end. I see MMOs as largely focused on character progression and repetition doesn't ring well with me when I want to feel like I am going somewhere!
Well there was the WoW player back in June who hit 90 without ever leaving the starting zone.
I don't think he had autism or leaned in any direction on the autism spectrum but saw it as a challenge instead. Some people see the grind as a challenge because they know not every gamer is up to it and the fact that the grind takes dedication, depending on how serious the grind is. So upon accomplishing something as a result of the grind, there's a sense of pride.
Some people think that grinding equals fun. Doing the same things over and over again.
Why is that?
I'm very happy to see that many MMOs allow us to buy things instead of grinding for them. IMO everything in a game should be able for purchasing. Equipment, races, levels and what have you.
An this is exactly why we can't have nice things folks........ or good mmo's for that matter
That dude who grinded to 90 just from picking herbs and mining (I can't remember his name)....
I just can't get my head around the hundreds if not thousands of hours of grinding that must have taken.
Admittedly he's become something of a celebrity in the WoW community now but even so, that's infamy at best; being known for an achievement that literally baffles much of the playerbase!
Some people think that grinding equals fun. Doing the same things over and over again.
Why is that?
I'm very happy to see that many MMOs allow us to buy things instead of grinding for them. IMO everything in a game should be able for purchasing. Equipment, races, levels and what have you.
I have never understood this either. It's the same as claiming that working in a factory where you repeat the same action 8 hours a day is a "fun job." I'm starting to think that grind can only be enjoyed when one is an utter simpleton.
I've been a senior develop for many years building financial systems and ecommerce transactional systems - I'm not a simpleton in effect and I enjoy grinding amongst other game I enjoy working towards long term gathering goals, I enjoy the gradual increase of wealth through my own efforts, I enjoy pve and pvp but there's times where I just like to wander the virtual world, joining events while gradually rewards and resources. Sometimes I just like listening to music and gathering.
You should ask yourself why you have a desperate need to insult people and label forms of play as 'grind' especially in a genre that has grinding at its roots - e.g RPG grinding xp and loot. ever seen children play where 1 child gets annoyed at another child because they are having fun with a toy they don't like playing with?
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
One of the things that most ironic about MMORPG's. Post WoW MMORPG's brought in new levels of playability but robbed the genre of the ability to play how you like or just play the game.
Edit: As far as forced grind. That forced quest grinding and lack of other alternative reason to play sucks. I also dislike being forced to mob grind to level.
As others have said grinding is just a matter of perspective.
There was a game designer quote that stuck to me from an interview I read back, where the guy was asked what his job was, and his reply was to make hitting the same 8 buttons for hours on end a fun and compelling experince. All video games by nature have some level of repetition, it's just how well they can hide it and how well they make it a fun time.
Some games fail at making the repetition fun, and it feels like grinding, but since fun is subjective so is the grind. Others find the repitition hidden well enough in the game and it doesn't feel like grinding.
Well the reason i have to say yes to the grinding, is the fact that mmorpg are suppose to be something that takes a while to level up, it is not about end game at all. The only reason why they started to add more end game content about 10 years ago is because of the other type of game players that started to invade the mmorpg world once they added the pvp aspect in it. And why not do it if it will make more people play mmorpg?
But today those same players that where introduced to the mmorpg world are trying to kill it by taking out quest, grind , etc. because they are not good at this type of game, but they still like some casual content and the fact that at max level with all the gear they feel overpower . But in the end no devs or publisher are stupid and no they will never take out the quest and the grind. It is those players that will need to decide : Do we still play mmorpg's or not.
There is a lot of mmo's out there but people will need to stop looking down on mmorpgs and instead play the type of games they are suppose to play. mmofps, moba and all the other types of mmo's there is. It is not the fault of the devs of mmorpgs that those people dont have fun, it is the fault of the other types of mmo's that can't keep there player base interested in there own games.
What is fun about logging into a game to get put into a lobby and only interact with other players by chat or skype and jsut run the same 10 maps over and over again? answer : none
You don't need skills to do that only enter the game and run the same maps and content over and over until it is second nature.
But mmorpg are different.
Anyways that is what i think, i am not saying the others games are not fun at all, this is only my personal taste and this could change from 1 player to another.
Some people think that grinding equals fun. Doing the same things over and over again.
Why is that?
I'm very happy to see that many MMOs allow us to buy things instead of grinding for them. IMO everything in a game should be able for purchasing. Equipment, races, levels and what have you.
I have never understood this either. It's the same as claiming that working in a factory where you repeat the same action 8 hours a day is a "fun job." I'm starting to think that grind can only be enjoyed when one is an utter simpleton.
Because combat has variety and is fun?
You really don't have to understand anything. You just need to accept millions love grinding combat. In fact, the whole Diablo franchise is built on that idea, and D3 sold 20M boxes, with RoS to be the best selling PC games since release. So grinding must be fun for many ... even not for you.
Comments
I did not start as early as you, but I never did like "grinding" in EQ or WoW. It was (and still is) counterproductive to what I want to do
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Actually, I do kinda like grinding. I don't know why.
Being able to buy anything in the game is a completely different issue. In this day and age monetization is an unfortunate reality outside, or even inside, a sub. Want to buy anything? Sure, but it should be monetized by the time it would take a player to earn it in the game. Maybe $10.00 an hour? After all, that's the argument for having anything buyable, more money than time to play so monetizing by time makes sense. Also, the item should be earned first by normal means first to "unlock" it.
2cp
To me it's just gameplay when it's fun. Grind is when its unfun or you're bored with it but you keep doing it to get some reward.
If you think grind can be fun then what part of playing a game isn't grind to you?
It's a matter of definition. I consider "grinding" a repetitive action to achieve some reward, whether that be advancement or items. IMO it's enjoyment neutral. The problem I have with giving "grinding" an automatically negative connotation is it allows someone to pick and choose what they consider grinding based on what they like. There is no true barometer past a subjective opinion.
MMOs are made up of grinds covered in story arcs and progression milestones. Say you play an MMO for six months. How many activities are you really doing once or twice? Some MMOs do a better job of making their grinds fun than others but they are still there.
Sometimes I like some mindless grinding. When I am tired from my day at work, I just want to relax, kill some mobs, and chat with people. Sometimes I want something that requires more work like doing a mission, quest or killing a specific mob. Sometimes I wish I could more easily get equipment or levels, but that usually doesn't happen until I've played the game to max level and I don't want to go through the leveling/gear grind again with a new character. I think some kind of veteran reward should be in place like faster leveling or perhaps new characters can start at a certain higher level with certain equipment. City of Heroes did all of this very well. You had fun mindless grinding, you had missions, quests for when you wanted to do something less mindless, and you had veteran rewards. Thank God there is a group looking to buy the rights to City of Heroes and reopen it.
Herald of innovation, Vanquisher of the old! - Awake a few hours almost everyday!
they make it grindy on purpose so they can get more money from you to avoid grinding. If you cant see this then i dont know what to tell you.
Grinding sucks, but milking customers to "avoid" the grind is plain bullshit. Design the game properly and you will earn the money you deserve.
Grinding is different things to different people. I'm sure you engage in something that is considered 'grinding' to others, you just don't recognize it as such.
As for your comment about purchasing stuff like levels and the like... NO, that is bypassing the entire purpose of the game. MMos that are focused around end game still should have players LEARN. If you just jump to max you don't learn anything. A good example is if you look at WoW and just how blatently bad people can be on it, beyond what you see in other MMos due to buying that boosted level without knowing the class they play.
An RPG is about EARNING what you have. Being able to buy it removes the purpose for working for it to begin with. Its fine in some small cases, but everything is a terrible idea. Not to mention the fact games that allow you to buy stuff rather then 'grind' for it are manipulating you, purposely making things more tedious in order for you to be more likely to buy it, something terrible anti-consumer.
SWG had a meta grind just like every other game, and it was equally as boring as Ever Quest. If I remember to correctly it was Talus>Dantooine>Endor. With the old meta leveling method, a player could grind out a combat class in less than a day, depending on the class of course.
The goal would be to mask the grind in absolute wonder and freedom, moreover farming monsters should be the base-line gain of estimated time to level. Anything a player does besides grinding monsters should reward the player with higher EXP per minute.
Currently no game in development or released has created a solution to grind. That doesn't mean that they haven't tried, but eventually you find that you're still grinding mobs for the best EXP. The closest I've experienced was in early release of Guild Wars 2 where you could exploit pure karma crafting to achieve max level.
Even in Black Desert Online, AoE mob farming is the fastest way to level, and story quests become forced upon you in order to attain skill points.
HAH!!!
Lol'd. Barry can solve any problem!
I don't mind grinding if there's a tangible result at the end of the road. Considering the other thread about whether players are task-oriented in real life, I kinda feel like there's a significant distinction in mindsets; namely those who enjoy just plodding along doing whatever (i.e. enjoy grinding to a degree) and those who are goal-oriented and want to get through the grinding as quickly as possible and thus probably don't enjoy it.
I tend to fall into the goal-oriented and grinding is purely a means to an end. I see MMOs as largely focused on character progression and repetition doesn't ring well with me when I want to feel like I am going somewhere!
8 years and counting addicted to
Avalon: The Legend Lives - the longest running online RPG in history
Well there was the WoW player back in June who hit 90 without ever leaving the starting zone.
I don't think he had autism or leaned in any direction on the autism spectrum but saw it as a challenge instead. Some people see the grind as a challenge because they know not every gamer is up to it and the fact that the grind takes dedication, depending on how serious the grind is. So upon accomplishing something as a result of the grind, there's a sense of pride.
An this is exactly why we can't have nice things folks........ or good mmo's for that matter
grinding by myself (or with random people) sucks ass.
grinding with friends is more fun.
That dude who grinded to 90 just from picking herbs and mining (I can't remember his name)....
I just can't get my head around the hundreds if not thousands of hours of grinding that must have taken.
Admittedly he's become something of a celebrity in the WoW community now but even so, that's infamy at best; being known for an achievement that literally baffles much of the playerbase!
8 years and counting addicted to
Avalon: The Legend Lives - the longest running online RPG in history
I played a game called Atlantica Online, one of the most grindy mmorpg I ever played.
But I find the grinding fun, because there are many strategy involved in making your grind as efficient as possible.
I have never understood this either. It's the same as claiming that working in a factory where you repeat the same action 8 hours a day is a "fun job." I'm starting to think that grind can only be enjoyed when one is an utter simpleton.
You should ask yourself why you have a desperate need to insult people and label forms of play as 'grind' especially in a genre that has grinding at its roots - e.g RPG grinding xp and loot. ever seen children play where 1 child gets annoyed at another child because they are having fun with a toy they don't like playing with?
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
One of the things that most ironic about MMORPG's. Post WoW MMORPG's brought in new levels of playability but robbed the genre of the ability to play how you like or just play the game.
Edit: As far as forced grind. That forced quest grinding and lack of other alternative reason to play sucks. I also dislike being forced to mob grind to level.
As others have said grinding is just a matter of perspective.
There was a game designer quote that stuck to me from an interview I read back, where the guy was asked what his job was, and his reply was to make hitting the same 8 buttons for hours on end a fun and compelling experince. All video games by nature have some level of repetition, it's just how well they can hide it and how well they make it a fun time.
Some games fail at making the repetition fun, and it feels like grinding, but since fun is subjective so is the grind. Others find the repitition hidden well enough in the game and it doesn't feel like grinding.
Well the reason i have to say yes to the grinding, is the fact that mmorpg are suppose to be something that takes a while to level up, it is not about end game at all. The only reason why they started to add more end game content about 10 years ago is because of the other type of game players that started to invade the mmorpg world once they added the pvp aspect in it. And why not do it if it will make more people play mmorpg?
But today those same players that where introduced to the mmorpg world are trying to kill it by taking out quest, grind , etc. because they are not good at this type of game, but they still like some casual content and the fact that at max level with all the gear they feel overpower . But in the end no devs or publisher are stupid and no they will never take out the quest and the grind. It is those players that will need to decide : Do we still play mmorpg's or not.
There is a lot of mmo's out there but people will need to stop looking down on mmorpgs and instead play the type of games they are suppose to play. mmofps, moba and all the other types of mmo's there is. It is not the fault of the devs of mmorpgs that those people dont have fun, it is the fault of the other types of mmo's that can't keep there player base interested in there own games.
What is fun about logging into a game to get put into a lobby and only interact with other players by chat or skype and jsut run the same 10 maps over and over again? answer : none
You don't need skills to do that only enter the game and run the same maps and content over and over until it is second nature.
But mmorpg are different.
Anyways that is what i think, i am not saying the others games are not fun at all, this is only my personal taste and this could change from 1 player to another.
Because combat has variety and is fun?
You really don't have to understand anything. You just need to accept millions love grinding combat. In fact, the whole Diablo franchise is built on that idea, and D3 sold 20M boxes, with RoS to be the best selling PC games since release. So grinding must be fun for many ... even not for you.