Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal One of the things that most ironic about MMORPG's. Post WoW MMORPG's brought in new levels of playability but robbed the genre of the ability to play how you like or just play the game. Edit: As far as forced grind. That forced quest grinding and lack of other alternative reason to play sucks. I also dislike being forced to mob grind to level.
That's kind of how I feel about it, too. When I played EQ, I highly disliked going to a camp without any reason other than, "to gain levels." For me, that is not enough reason. I recall many players in EQ in a newbie zone running around killing everything in sight. I have always a hard time trying to figure that out. At best, I could kill snakes for their eggs (used in cooking) and skins (used for some spell reagents). I could kill skeletons if I saw they had weapons to improve by smithing and then sell, or upgrade my own weapon. I could kill rats and bats for their (respective) whiskers and fur to turn in to the Mages Guild.
A good MMO allows a player to play to play how they want. If they want to be a homicidal maniac, they should have that chance. If they want a more deep experience by learning why that camp of Orcs is there and why they should NOT be there, they should have that chance.
The grind is hardly ever fun for me. However, when like minded players experience that grind together, it can become fun. Not the grind itself, but the fellowship that can spontaneously happen.
There is also a delicate balance, different for every individual player, where any activity can cross over from fun to grindy. Kill the boss 5 times (including the learning of the fight) and the item drops can be fun. After 50 kills with no item drop and you get into the grindy area. Killing once and getting the item has the opposite effect and makes it too easy. This ties into the common response of, "If everyone can get it, it loses its specialness."
What I liked about EQ's class specific Epic Quests, at least in theory, was that players were sent all over Norrath to accomplish varied (sometimes tedious) tasks. The bad part was trying to get a specific item to drop from a specific fight. On one hand, Epic Items were rare. Not every player had the patience to get them. On the other, one usually needed guild membership (or a huge list of friends) to acquire the item. What is missing today, is the other players willingness to help out, for little to no reward for themselves.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Some people think that grinding equals fun. Doing the same things over and over again.
Why is that?
I'm very happy to see that many MMOs allow us to buy things instead of grinding for them. IMO everything in a game should be able for purchasing. Equipment, races, levels and what have you.
Nice troll post.
"I hate grinding!!!"
Would you like developers to make games with no grind?
"No, not necessary, I'll just buy everything from the cash shop instead"
When we need to imitate efforts in game, grind is most familiar and easy to balance way. I hate it, but understand that without efforts game would worth nothing for me. I'd like to see different mechanics, still I can begrudgingly accept grind for now.
Some people think that grinding equals fun. Doing the same things over and over again.
Why is that?
I'm very happy to see that many MMOs allow us to buy things instead of grinding for them. IMO everything in a game should be able for purchasing. Equipment, races, levels and what have you.
It is called role playing which is suppose to be part of a mmorpg.
It is not the EXACT term of grinding that people find FUN,it is the COMPLETE game which should offer a complete rp experience.
That is why we have genres ,so that people can choose the type of game they want to play.If you don't like RP'ing or a mmorpg then it would be silly to actually play one and complain about it''s functions,unless yo uwere complaining about ideas that don't belong in a rpg.
When you do ANYTHING in life which is what rp'ing is about,you have to LEARN it and your SKILLS in those areas would improve over time or not.That is how a rpg should function,it is not even remotely plausible that you would simply buy your way to a skill or become a legendary fighter based on money spent.
Example Wayne Gretzky wanted to be a great hockey player,he never once thought "well maybe if i spend 5 bucks i can be the greatest of all time".
Michael Jordan ,Lebron James they never got to be legendary players by looking for an easy way out or by simply spending money,they did it with hard work and perseverance .
Naturally nobody is saying you have to like it,but if you are going to play a RPG then you SHOULD expect to grind out your skills and abilities.Otherwise you don't really like a rpg genre and should look for something different.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Originally posted by emperorwings It's just to see a number going up so you can get stuff to see bigger numbers going up.
Nope that is what a level number does yet i hear nobody complaining about levels?
A SKILL number is the ONLY way a computer simulation can represent that you are better at that skill,pc's work with numbers and math.You are NEVER going to fully simulate skill any other way,the closest one could come is if gaming used 3d virtual reality and even then it would not be 100% as latency, hardware, how the peripherals are used might be better for some than others ect ect.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Some people think that grinding equals fun. Doing the same things over and over again.
Why is that?
I'm very happy to see that many MMOs allow us to buy things instead of grinding for them. IMO everything in a game should be able for purchasing. Equipment, races, levels and what have you.
Define grind. Is it having to do particular content more than once to get your drop? How about twice? Three must be the magic number huh? Without clarification, it can only be assumed that the OP doesn't do it at all and would rather buy stuff than earning it.
This very thread is what is wrong with the genre as it currently stands. There are too many entitlement generation kids that play now and they want instant gratification. They want rewards with ZERO effort. If Vince Lombardi were alive he today he'd have coronary at reading this garbage. He once said the only place success comes before work is in the dictionary, but that doesn't apply to these younger children now does it.
If everything is available for purchase, there is NO reason to improve as a player, there is no reason to join guilds to assist each other and have friends to play with, and there is no reason to communicate with others to overcome and achieve success and thereby feeling a sense of accomplishment. No, just go to the cash shop and break out mom and dad's credit card and throw down some of their hard earned cash and buy your way to the best gear, additional races, levels, etc. THAT is success, that is accomplishment to the younger gamers.
Problem with that is, it is a false sense of accomplishment. People like the OP are no different than those that bought accounts in EQ on eBay back in the day. Sure the characters were geared, keyed, and ready to go, but the players weren't and it was very obvious that they bought the account and didn't earn shit because they didn't have the skill or knowledge needed to play the character. Basically, they SUCKED and were called out in general chat for all to know.
That doesn't hold true anymore though because now there is no need to group or join guilds is there? Why? The new version of eBayers buy stuff and face roll the solo content (most of the game anymore) and no one knows any different. They can get away with it because the games are being designed so these younger, more fragile gamers won't get their feelings hurt because they can't handle failure anymore. So you are a bottom feeder. Here's an idea, get better at playing your characters or find something else to do with your time like playing sports. Oh, wait, that takes grinding to achieve success too doesn't it? At least in sports, if mom and dad buy their kids way onto the field it is painfully obvious to everyone watching.
Let's face it; different strokes for different folks. It's really as simple as that. In 15 years of gaming, it's intuitively obvious that some people just like grinding - admittedly usually when it's goal or target based - even if those goals are long-distant and arbitrary.
Some will say it's something to do during a quiet time in the game or whatever and to some degree everyone grinds; working toward a goal is grinding in some respect surely?
people like working towards a goal, even in their hobbies or pastimes. People like getting better at things too.
also, if you're doing it in a group, it's more like socializing than grinding.
even now that i'm older, I'd still rather play a game where it takes time to get your neat stuff than one where it's just given to you. I like when you see a guy with a super rare armor or space ship or whatever and you say "boy, that guy' (and his corp/clan/guild if applicable) had to work their asses off to get that. Holy crap."
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
I love grinding but they have to be on my own terms, I'll explain. For instance im currently playing Final Fantasy 14, I absolutly hate the occosinial gaps between lvls that forces you to grind fates or leves because you ran out of quests. On the other hand I Love grinding crafting or farming mats when i see a oppurtunity on the auction house to make a little money because a certain item is not listed and may be in demand.
I find grinding on my terms while watching tv in the backround one of the most relaxing hobbies ... Its one of the big reasons i love MMO's.
When you do ANYTHING in life which is what rp'ing is about,you have to LEARN it and your SKILLS in those areas would improve over time or not.That is how a rpg should function,it is not even remotely plausible that you would simply buy your way to a skill or become a legendary fighter based on money spent.
It is a game. It is not remotely plausible that i can telelport or throw fireball. And it is not plausible that killing stuff will magically increase my intellect.
And what is "improve over time"? 10 minute is time, and 1 hour is time. No one says i can to improve so slowly that i cannot get a new skill for 10 years.
Unfortunately I'm stuck at the whim of efficiency. I do enjoy grinding, especially when it is based on being efficient with your abilities. I mean a game like current WoW where you can grind endlessly with no thought behind it I will say no thanks. A game like EQ where your ability to maximize the efficient use of your mana then yeah I liked it. When two people can grind the same class and one gets much better XP/Hour I'm a fan of it. However if you make questing twice as fast as grinding I will always choose questing and that is what most games do these days.
A game like EQ where your ability to maximize the efficient use of your mana then yeah I liked it.
EQ is too slow pace, and it lets others spoil your fun.
But efficiency is fun, and the latest greatest rift in D3 is a good example. Not only you have to play the meta right, but knowing what to do, and how to do it .. make a huge difference whether you can do GR30 or 35 ...
In my opinion, I really like grinding. From the time that I started playing MMORPG which is FLYFF I totally wanted to play this kind of game play. Why? I actually love talking to my party mates and so on and so forth while hitting mobs and listening to their suggestion and opinions on how to be stronger on the game it self. When I played Rohan, before using third party programs such as bots is seriously an illegal action to the game itself. Now, what they did was, they adapted to that concept and proposed to the players that they can now purchase the item via item mall the item that is almost the same as having 3pp. They called it as Hunter Kit. Now, talking to players while letting my charcter level up and hitting with mobs automatically makes my life easier when talking to my friends and partymates. HAHAHA.
My best memories come from Lineage, grinding in groups while defeating enemy groups over the control of the spot.
That's why I like grind.
Originally posted by Waterlily It's more fun than running around for quests, and you get to spend time with friends.
This, quest hubs are the cancer of MMos, turned the grind in a solo fest instead of gathering friends to grind together and defeat enemies in open world.
Some people think that grinding equals fun. Doing the same things over and over again.Why is that?I'm very happy to see that many MMOs allow us to buy things instead of grinding for them. IMO everything in a game should be able for purchasing. Equipment, races, levels and what have you.
sometimes it can just be relaxing. Did you even consider that?
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Some people think that grinding equals fun. Doing the same things over and over again.
Why is that?
It depends on the type of grind. In EQ you occupied a static camp and chatted to people while you fought.
So why was it fun? Same reason why chatting online is fun and the same reason why you started a thread. it's socialising.
If you never played EQ back then, the community and socialising was important. You didn't have a way to trade goods through a market, you had no assistance to form groups. It all came down to talking to others. People set up their own trade places under the EC tunnel, people set up their own groups, their own community.
So grinding was a way to get to know people, to relax and to chat with others.
Since the leveling took a really long time, you might as well relax, since rushing to endgame wasn't really possible.
Playing EQ was to many less important than chatting in the game, many people logged on to chat and sat in the plane of knowledge, chatting with people was at least as important as progressing in the game, and only through chatting could you progress in the game, since the game was quite brutal, you needed to find friends and grinding and chatting with them was one way to do it.
It was encouraged by the game world too, the environment was vast and travel slow, so you were often far away from friends or your guild, so grinding with others and communicating with them helped you stay alive, it helped you recover your corpse, it helped you find out how trustworthy others were, it allowed you to grow your friends list and allow you to progress in the game.
I know a handful of people with diagnosed autism who enjoy grinding for hours in an MMO. The repetition is calming to them, or something. Not saying that all people who enjoy grinding have autism, but it exists.
It's also fun with people, especially an area where, if one is not paying attention, things can go wrong and you have to work together not to wipe.
I've always preferred grinding.
Having said that, and to address the OP's incredulity, what does one do when they go through an elder scrolls dungeon? You fight whatever inhabitants that are there which is very much like killing the same one over and over.
I used to love starting at an area/orc enclave in LOTRO and making my way through. Same with goblin town.
That was "grinding" but there was a sort of exploratory feel to the whole thing.
The other thing about grinding is that you are doing something. As opposed to quests that mostly have you running here and there. I don't find running "here and there" to be fun.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Grinding alone sucks. Grinding with people is repetitive, but there's something about spending several hours with the same group and the social aspect that goes along with it. You can't do that with groups that last twenty minutes to do a dungeon, don't talk the whole time because you need to finish asap, and immediately disband after the dungeon.
Grinding can be a sort of catharthis, or stress release. After a day's work, it can be quite soothing to spend a while thumping seven bells out of a bunch of goblins, provided (a) it looks good, in terms of character models, animations, environment, so that it all does feel immersive, and (b) one is suitably rewarded for one's labours.
Of course, a solo game would serve just as well, but MMOs are easier to come by.
Comments
A good MMO allows a player to play to play how they want. If they want to be a homicidal maniac, they should have that chance. If they want a more deep experience by learning why that camp of Orcs is there and why they should NOT be there, they should have that chance.
The grind is hardly ever fun for me. However, when like minded players experience that grind together, it can become fun. Not the grind itself, but the fellowship that can spontaneously happen.
There is also a delicate balance, different for every individual player, where any activity can cross over from fun to grindy. Kill the boss 5 times (including the learning of the fight) and the item drops can be fun. After 50 kills with no item drop and you get into the grindy area. Killing once and getting the item has the opposite effect and makes it too easy. This ties into the common response of, "If everyone can get it, it loses its specialness."
What I liked about EQ's class specific Epic Quests, at least in theory, was that players were sent all over Norrath to accomplish varied (sometimes tedious) tasks. The bad part was trying to get a specific item to drop from a specific fight. On one hand, Epic Items were rare. Not every player had the patience to get them. On the other, one usually needed guild membership (or a huge list of friends) to acquire the item. What is missing today, is the other players willingness to help out, for little to no reward for themselves.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Nice troll post.
"I hate grinding!!!"
Would you like developers to make games with no grind?
"No, not necessary, I'll just buy everything from the cash shop instead"
Okay..... next!
It is called role playing which is suppose to be part of a mmorpg.
It is not the EXACT term of grinding that people find FUN,it is the COMPLETE game which should offer a complete rp experience.
That is why we have genres ,so that people can choose the type of game they want to play.If you don't like RP'ing or a mmorpg then it would be silly to actually play one and complain about it''s functions,unless yo uwere complaining about ideas that don't belong in a rpg.
When you do ANYTHING in life which is what rp'ing is about,you have to LEARN it and your SKILLS in those areas would improve over time or not.That is how a rpg should function,it is not even remotely plausible that you would simply buy your way to a skill or become a legendary fighter based on money spent.
Example Wayne Gretzky wanted to be a great hockey player,he never once thought "well maybe if i spend 5 bucks i can be the greatest of all time".
Michael Jordan ,Lebron James they never got to be legendary players by looking for an easy way out or by simply spending money,they did it with hard work and perseverance .
Naturally nobody is saying you have to like it,but if you are going to play a RPG then you SHOULD expect to grind out your skills and abilities.Otherwise you don't really like a rpg genre and should look for something different.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Nope that is what a level number does yet i hear nobody complaining about levels?
A SKILL number is the ONLY way a computer simulation can represent that you are better at that skill,pc's work with numbers and math.You are NEVER going to fully simulate skill any other way,the closest one could come is if gaming used 3d virtual reality and even then it would not be 100% as latency, hardware, how the peripherals are used might be better for some than others ect ect.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Define grind. Is it having to do particular content more than once to get your drop? How about twice? Three must be the magic number huh? Without clarification, it can only be assumed that the OP doesn't do it at all and would rather buy stuff than earning it.
This very thread is what is wrong with the genre as it currently stands. There are too many entitlement generation kids that play now and they want instant gratification. They want rewards with ZERO effort. If Vince Lombardi were alive he today he'd have coronary at reading this garbage. He once said the only place success comes before work is in the dictionary, but that doesn't apply to these younger children now does it.
If everything is available for purchase, there is NO reason to improve as a player, there is no reason to join guilds to assist each other and have friends to play with, and there is no reason to communicate with others to overcome and achieve success and thereby feeling a sense of accomplishment. No, just go to the cash shop and break out mom and dad's credit card and throw down some of their hard earned cash and buy your way to the best gear, additional races, levels, etc. THAT is success, that is accomplishment to the younger gamers.
Problem with that is, it is a false sense of accomplishment. People like the OP are no different than those that bought accounts in EQ on eBay back in the day. Sure the characters were geared, keyed, and ready to go, but the players weren't and it was very obvious that they bought the account and didn't earn shit because they didn't have the skill or knowledge needed to play the character. Basically, they SUCKED and were called out in general chat for all to know.
That doesn't hold true anymore though because now there is no need to group or join guilds is there? Why? The new version of eBayers buy stuff and face roll the solo content (most of the game anymore) and no one knows any different. They can get away with it because the games are being designed so these younger, more fragile gamers won't get their feelings hurt because they can't handle failure anymore. So you are a bottom feeder. Here's an idea, get better at playing your characters or find something else to do with your time like playing sports. Oh, wait, that takes grinding to achieve success too doesn't it? At least in sports, if mom and dad buy their kids way onto the field it is painfully obvious to everyone watching.
Let's face it; different strokes for different folks. It's really as simple as that. In 15 years of gaming, it's intuitively obvious that some people just like grinding - admittedly usually when it's goal or target based - even if those goals are long-distant and arbitrary.
Some will say it's something to do during a quiet time in the game or whatever and to some degree everyone grinds; working toward a goal is grinding in some respect surely?
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Avalon: The Legend Lives - the longest running online RPG in history
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
people like working towards a goal, even in their hobbies or pastimes. People like getting better at things too.
also, if you're doing it in a group, it's more like socializing than grinding.
even now that i'm older, I'd still rather play a game where it takes time to get your neat stuff than one where it's just given to you. I like when you see a guy with a super rare armor or space ship or whatever and you say "boy, that guy' (and his corp/clan/guild if applicable) had to work their asses off to get that. Holy crap."
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
It depends how you define grinding.
I prefer the latter instead of the former definition.
I love grinding but they have to be on my own terms, I'll explain. For instance im currently playing Final Fantasy 14, I absolutly hate the occosinial gaps between lvls that forces you to grind fates or leves because you ran out of quests. On the other hand I Love grinding crafting or farming mats when i see a oppurtunity on the auction house to make a little money because a certain item is not listed and may be in demand.
I find grinding on my terms while watching tv in the backround one of the most relaxing hobbies ... Its one of the big reasons i love MMO's.
Aloha Mr Hand !
It is a game. It is not remotely plausible that i can telelport or throw fireball. And it is not plausible that killing stuff will magically increase my intellect.
And what is "improve over time"? 10 minute is time, and 1 hour is time. No one says i can to improve so slowly that i cannot get a new skill for 10 years.
Unfortunately I'm stuck at the whim of efficiency. I do enjoy grinding, especially when it is based on being efficient with your abilities. I mean a game like current WoW where you can grind endlessly with no thought behind it I will say no thanks. A game like EQ where your ability to maximize the efficient use of your mana then yeah I liked it. When two people can grind the same class and one gets much better XP/Hour I'm a fan of it. However if you make questing twice as fast as grinding I will always choose questing and that is what most games do these days.
EQ is too slow pace, and it lets others spoil your fun.
But efficiency is fun, and the latest greatest rift in D3 is a good example. Not only you have to play the meta right, but knowing what to do, and how to do it .. make a huge difference whether you can do GR30 or 35 ...
My best memories come from Lineage, grinding in groups while defeating enemy groups over the control of the spot.
That's why I like grind.
This, quest hubs are the cancer of MMos, turned the grind in a solo fest instead of gathering friends to grind together and defeat enemies in open world.
I can't call a game RPG or MMORPG if there isn't any form of grind in it.
When I feel I don't want to grind I don't play RPG/MMORPG but I play action/platform games, plain and simple.
sometimes it can just be relaxing. Did you even consider that?Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
It depends on the type of grind. In EQ you occupied a static camp and chatted to people while you fought.
So why was it fun? Same reason why chatting online is fun and the same reason why you started a thread. it's socialising.
If you never played EQ back then, the community and socialising was important. You didn't have a way to trade goods through a market, you had no assistance to form groups. It all came down to talking to others. People set up their own trade places under the EC tunnel, people set up their own groups, their own community.
So grinding was a way to get to know people, to relax and to chat with others.
Since the leveling took a really long time, you might as well relax, since rushing to endgame wasn't really possible.
Playing EQ was to many less important than chatting in the game, many people logged on to chat and sat in the plane of knowledge, chatting with people was at least as important as progressing in the game, and only through chatting could you progress in the game, since the game was quite brutal, you needed to find friends and grinding and chatting with them was one way to do it.
It was encouraged by the game world too, the environment was vast and travel slow, so you were often far away from friends or your guild, so grinding with others and communicating with them helped you stay alive, it helped you recover your corpse, it helped you find out how trustworthy others were, it allowed you to grow your friends list and allow you to progress in the game.
I don't have autism but I do find it relaxing.
It's also fun with people, especially an area where, if one is not paying attention, things can go wrong and you have to work together not to wipe.
I've always preferred grinding.
Having said that, and to address the OP's incredulity, what does one do when they go through an elder scrolls dungeon? You fight whatever inhabitants that are there which is very much like killing the same one over and over.
I used to love starting at an area/orc enclave in LOTRO and making my way through. Same with goblin town.
That was "grinding" but there was a sort of exploratory feel to the whole thing.
The other thing about grinding is that you are doing something. As opposed to quests that mostly have you running here and there. I don't find running "here and there" to be fun.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Grinding can be a sort of catharthis, or stress release. After a day's work, it can be quite soothing to spend a while thumping seven bells out of a bunch of goblins, provided (a) it looks good, in terms of character models, animations, environment, so that it all does feel immersive, and (b) one is suitably rewarded for one's labours.
Of course, a solo game would serve just as well, but MMOs are easier to come by.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D