Originally posted by lugal I prefer my moms to be themeparks. Sandboxes require too much time and energy to get full enjoyment and return on investment.
Awesome mistype. Seriously. I can't even grasp the statement.
The term "Fail" IMO is being used subjectively online. But personally I do consider SWTOR, WAR, Wildstar, RIFT and etc to all be failed games because their sub numbers have fallen off within a relatively short time after release. If an MMO loses a 1/3 of it players after the first month and more after 2-3 months that means the game pretty much failed to live up to expectation.
I don't think that is realistic.
Take for games like wow. Wow have 100 million account created, but there are only 7 million active players now.
Some released info showed only 1/3rd of people on wow trial actually subscribed, the numbers for Eve trial are close to 1/10.
I think you will always have a sharp drop off the first 1-3 month. Weather you continue to leak players after that is what determine a game's success.
Originally posted by lugal I prefer my moms to be themeparks. Sandboxes require too much time and energy to get full enjoyment and return on investment.
As apposed to never ending carrot on a stick gear grinding to remain relevant or farming dailies every day, every few hours while farming dungeons and raids, endlessly and forever?
I would rather make my own armor, know that it wont be obsolete in 3 months and spend a few days gathering mats to build my log cabin in the woods, than spend every day grinding the dungeon raid gear ladder that never ends, ever, EVER.
But then what would you do with that log cabin once it was done or the armor? Remember, you still have another 330 days to play with left before any meaningful content update.
wait what? games with depth typically do not need its player base wishing for the next content update. what are you looking for more quests?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
People have different definitions for sandbox and themepark. To me a sandbox is like the sandboxes we used as kids, four boards and sand where you could make castles, roads, whatever.
I like the terms story driven, like WoW versus player driven like Minecraft and Second Life.
A player driven world would be empty when you got there except for resources, like trees and rocks.
Originally posted by lugal I prefer my moms to be themeparks. Sandboxes require too much time and energy to get full enjoyment and return on investment.
As apposed to never ending carrot on a stick gear grinding to remain relevant or farming dailies every day, every few hours while farming dungeons and raids, endlessly and forever?
I would rather make my own armor, know that it wont be obsolete in 3 months and spend a few days gathering mats to build my log cabin in the woods, than spend every day grinding the dungeon raid gear ladder that never ends, ever, EVER.
But then what would you do with that log cabin once it was done or the armor? Remember, you still have another 330 days to play with left before any meaningful content update.
wait what? games with depth typically do not need its player base wishing for the next content update. what are you looking for more quests?
Has nothing to do with my question... I asked, what would he do once he had finished his cabin and armor... simple question. He was against the endless grind for gear because it was an endless endeavor. I want to know what he plans to do when his endeavor isn't so endless... cabin is done, armor is done. What next?
Originally posted by Gintoh As we know, MMO's are released in "waves" it seems. Last wave was Wildstar and ESO, before that was GW2 and TSW and so on. Next wave is EQN, SC, AA, and Black Desert. All of which (except for AA which is a hybrid) seem to be shaping up to be sandboxes. Neat!
Originally posted by Gintoh As we know, MMO's are released in "waves" it seems. Last wave was Wildstar and ESO, before that was GW2 and TSW and so on. Next wave is EQN, SC, AA, and Black Desert. All of which (except for AA which is a hybrid) seem to be shaping up to be sandboxes. Neat!
I believe Black Desert has quests.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by lugal I prefer my moms to be themeparks. Sandboxes require too much time and energy to get full enjoyment and return on investment.
As apposed to never ending carrot on a stick gear grinding to remain relevant or farming dailies every day, every few hours while farming dungeons and raids, endlessly and forever?
I would rather make my own armor, know that it wont be obsolete in 3 months and spend a few days gathering mats to build my log cabin in the woods, than spend every day grinding the dungeon raid gear ladder that never ends, ever, EVER.
But then what would you do with that log cabin once it was done or the armor? Remember, you still have another 330 days to play with left before any meaningful content update.
wait what? games with depth typically do not need its player base wishing for the next content update. what are you looking for more quests?
Has nothing to do with my question... I asked, what would he do once he had finished his cabin and armor... simple question. He was against the endless grind for gear because it was an endless endeavor. I want to know what he plans to do when his endeavor isn't so endless... cabin is done, armor is done. What next?
I dont know what specific game you guys are talking about but in the ones I play once I build my cabin then I can start a farm so that I can increase my first aid skill so that when I go out and fight some monsters I can heal myself. I can also use that food to tame animals to be my pets. And for horse if I tame them then I can craft a saddle and put that on him which makes me ride faster away from animals that I can not fight.
so here is my question, once you finish the quest to kill 100 rats...what do y9u do next?
ALL games have a end game and ALL games have a point where ones asks 'why I am doing this and whats next'
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Originally posted by lugal I prefer my moms to be themeparks. Sandboxes require too much time and energy to get full enjoyment and return on investment.
As apposed to never ending carrot on a stick gear grinding to remain relevant or farming dailies every day, every few hours while farming dungeons and raids, endlessly and forever?
I would rather make my own armor, know that it wont be obsolete in 3 months and spend a few days gathering mats to build my log cabin in the woods, than spend every day grinding the dungeon raid gear ladder that never ends, ever, EVER.
But then what would you do with that log cabin once it was done or the armor? Remember, you still have another 330 days to play with left before any meaningful content update.
wait what? games with depth typically do not need its player base wishing for the next content update. what are you looking for more quests?
Has nothing to do with my question... I asked, what would he do once he had finished his cabin and armor... simple question. He was against the endless grind for gear because it was an endless endeavor. I want to know what he plans to do when his endeavor isn't so endless... cabin is done, armor is done. What next?
I dont know what specific game you guys are talking about but in the ones I play once I build my cabin then I can start a farm so that I can increase my first aid skill so that when I go out and fight some monsters I can heal myself. I can also use that food to tame animals to be my pets. And for horse if I tame them then I can craft a saddle and put that on him which makes me ride faster away from animals that I can not fight.
so here is my question, once you finish the quest to kill 100 rats...what do y9u do next?
ALL games have a end game and ALL games have a point where ones asks 'why I am doing this and whats next'
Yes, but I asked sleepyfish... both times and you're the one replying... only he can answer this question.
Originally posted by lugal I prefer my moms to be themeparks. Sandboxes require too much time and energy to get full enjoyment and return on investment.
As apposed to never ending carrot on a stick gear grinding to remain relevant or farming dailies every day, every few hours while farming dungeons and raids, endlessly and forever?
I would rather make my own armor, know that it wont be obsolete in 3 months and spend a few days gathering mats to build my log cabin in the woods, than spend every day grinding the dungeon raid gear ladder that never ends, ever, EVER.
But then what would you do with that log cabin once it was done or the armor? Remember, you still have another 330 days to play with left before any meaningful content update.
wait what? games with depth typically do not need its player base wishing for the next content update. what are you looking for more quests?
Has nothing to do with my question... I asked, what would he do once he had finished his cabin and armor... simple question. He was against the endless grind for gear because it was an endless endeavor. I want to know what he plans to do when his endeavor isn't so endless... cabin is done, armor is done. What next?
I dont know what specific game you guys are talking about but in the ones I play once I build my cabin then I can start a farm so that I can increase my first aid skill so that when I go out and fight some monsters I can heal myself. I can also use that food to tame animals to be my pets. And for horse if I tame them then I can craft a saddle and put that on him which makes me ride faster away from animals that I can not fight.
so here is my question, once you finish the quest to kill 100 rats...what do y9u do next?
ALL games have a end game and ALL games have a point where ones asks 'why I am doing this and whats next'
Yes, but I asked sleepyfish... both times and you're the one replying... only he can answer this question.
ah I see you just want to win a debate with sleepyfish on a point you know to be invalid. (because you dont want to rebut my reply)
I got it...well good luck with that
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Originally posted by AustrianThe term "Fail" IMO is being used subjectively online. But personally I do consider SWTOR, WAR, Wildstar, RIFT and etc to all be failed games because their sub numbers have fallen off within a relatively short time after release. If an MMO loses a 1/3 of it players after the first month and more after 2-3 months that means the game pretty much failed to live up to expectation.
I don't think that is realistic.
Take for games like wow. Wow have 100 million account created, but there are only 7 million active players now.
Some released info showed only 1/3rd of people on wow trial actually subscribed, the numbers for Eve trial are close to 1/10.
I think you will always have a sharp drop off the first 1-3 month. Weather you continue to leak players after that is what determine a game's success.
WoW has been out for 10 years and didn't lose a 1/3 of it subs within a few months, it actually grew substantially. So you cannot try to argue and say that WoW is a part of failure because 100 million accounts have been created and only 7 million are active. The fact is WoW went from 500k subs to several million over several years.
Another example of a successful game would be EvE online. It started off with around 50k subs and grew to 500k+. Now that's not WoW numbers however, it grew overtime unlike many of today's MMO games which lost players within a month or a few months and never to regrow again at least with the subscription base model. F2P is another story.
Plus we're not talking about free trials, we're talking about active growth of subscriptions. If 500k players bought a game in the anticipation of it being good but find out that it sucked and a 1/3 of those players leave in the first month and more afterwards, that's not a success. Perhaps it was a success on marketing in attracting players into an unreleased game based off of marketing tactics and hype, but once the game is playable and if players are leaving within the first month or two then the game itself did not live up to expectations. It's really that simple.
The problem with asking about sandbox games is that a lot of people have an all or nothing idea of a sandbox. If you don't have everything, you're not a sandbox. I think there are a few games that are coming out that have enough sandbox elements that they can be classified as such. There aren't any games that I can think of that have every single sandbox element that some would demand.
By chance do any of those not have forced pvp junk? I recognize some people enjoy that kind of...play, but there are many of us who don't also. Just a curiosity thing; if they're not making a game targetted for me that's perfectly fine, I'd just kind-of like to know at the outset.
I love all the things sandbox offers until it hits that pvp/loot stuff. At that point I might as well tear my fingernails off slowly for the thrill of it, it'd feel about the same.
Originally posted by AustrianThe term "Fail" IMO is being used subjectively online. But personally I do consider SWTOR, WAR, Wildstar, RIFT and etc to all be failed games because their sub numbers have fallen off within a relatively short time after release. If an MMO loses a 1/3 of it players after the first month and more after 2-3 months that means the game pretty much failed to live up to expectation.
I don't think that is realistic.
Take for games like wow. Wow have 100 million account created, but there are only 7 million active players now.
Some released info showed only 1/3rd of people on wow trial actually subscribed, the numbers for Eve trial are close to 1/10.
I think you will always have a sharp drop off the first 1-3 month. Weather you continue to leak players after that is what determine a game's success.
WoW has been out for 10 years and didn't lose a 1/3 of it subs within a few months, it actually grew substantially. So you cannot try to argue and say that WoW is a part of failure because 100 million accounts have been created and only 7 million are active. The fact is WoW went from 500k subs to several million over several years.
Another example of a successful game would be EvE online. It started off with around 50k subs and grew to 500k+. Now that's not WoW numbers however, it grew overtime unlike many of today's MMO games which lost players within a month or a few months and never to regrow again at least with the subscription base model. F2P is another story.
Plus we're not talking about free trials, we're talking about active growth of subscriptions. If 500k players bought a game in the anticipation of it being good but find out that it sucked and a 1/3 of those players leave in the first month and more afterwards, that's not a success. Perhaps it was a success on marketing in attracting players into an unreleased game based off of marketing tactics and hype, but once the game is playable and if players are leaving within the first month or two then the game itself did not live up to expectations. It's really that simple.
Right, but that dont' mean wow and eve are not lossing players, they are just gaining more than they loss.
I dont' think it will happen realistically to any games on the market. Since todays game usually build alot around hype. So there will always be huge sell initially. Many people will try it and decided it's not for them and leave.
Some of the games on the market now are doing fairly ok, for example GW2, FF14, SWTOR, still have strong population base. Even if they did have a sharp population fall of initially, they are at least sustainable so far.
Take for example the successful Eve game you are talking about. 90% of the people give up after the trial.
Originally posted by laokoko Originally posted by AustrianOriginally posted by laokokoOriginally posted by AustrianThe term "Fail" IMO is being used subjectively online. But personally I do consider SWTOR, WAR, Wildstar, RIFT and etc to all be failed games because their sub numbers have fallen off within a relatively short time after release. If an MMO loses a 1/3 of it players after the first month and more after 2-3 months that means the game pretty much failed to live up to expectation.
I don't think that is realistic.Take for games like wow. Wow have 100 million account created, but there are only 7 million active players now. Some released info showed only 1/3rd of people on wow trial actually subscribed, the numbers for Eve trial are close to 1/10.I think you will always have a sharp drop off the first 1-3 month. Weather you continue to leak players after that is what determine a game's success.WoW has been out for 10 years and didn't lose a 1/3 of it subs within a few months, it actually grew substantially. So you cannot try to argue and say that WoW is a part of failure because 100 million accounts have been created and only 7 million are active. The fact is WoW went from 500k subs to several million over several years.Another example of a successful game would be EvE online. It started off with around 50k subs and grew to 500k+. Now that's not WoW numbers however, it grew overtime unlike many of today's MMO games which lost players within a month or a few months and never to regrow again at least with the subscription base model. F2P is another story.Plus we're not talking about free trials, we're talking about active growth of subscriptions. If 500k players bought a game in the anticipation of it being good but find out that it sucked and a 1/3 of those players leave in the first month and more afterwards, that's not a success. Perhaps it was a success on marketing in attracting players into an unreleased game based off of marketing tactics and hype, but once the game is playable and if players are leaving within the first month or two then the game itself did not live up to expectations. It's really that simple.Right, but that dont' mean wow and eve are not lossing players, they are just gaining more than they loss.
I dont' think it will happen realistically to any games on the market. Since todays game usually build alot around hype. So there will always be huge sell initially. Many people will try it and decided it's not for them and leave.
Some of the games on the market now are doing fairly ok, for example GW2, FF14, SWTOR, still have strong population base. Even if they did have a sharp population fall of initially, they are at least sustainable so far.
Take for example the successful Eve game you are talking about. 90% of the people give up after the trial.
I am not talking about people who tried the game and leave. I am talking about growth. Like you said in your very first sentence. Wow and Eve are losing players but their net gain is bigger than their net loss which means they're gaining players. That's the bottom line. The bottom line is they're attracting more players WITH a subscription model unlike how SWTOR, WAR, WS are doing. GW2 can't speak of because it's not a sub game it's buy once and play and for that situation we have to compare it with other games that you purchase once like single player games and also look at the player activity of those who still play.
SWTOR is now under the F2P because in the sub model it failed and it failed because it couldn't convince players to justify paying $15 a month. A lot of players in SWTOR left after the first month or should I say their net loss of players were much bigger than their gains and it was just downhill from there and went F2P within its first year.
What about a survival type MMO? Not like DayZ or anything. Need food and drink to live. No leveled zones. If a wolf is level 5 in one area it's level 5 everywhere. 1 wolf, no problem, a pack of wolves and you have issues. Factions. Territory and resource control. Open PVP with partial loot drop, 30% to 60%, I don't know just throwing a % out there. Item degradation. No leveling in the normal sense, bit instead infamy, honor etc etc. This would also be amazing to me if it was set in a Fallout or STALKER type world. I like fantasy but the market is saturated with it.
I guess essentially I want a Fallout hardcore mode MMO with open faction PVP. Housing would be great especially if in the urban environments you could renovate existing homes or apartments. I do play DayZ from time to time and what gets my blood pumping is me running solo and seeing a group of players which I have to hide from.
Or maybe I just don't know what I'm talking about......
Comments
Awesome mistype. Seriously. I can't even grasp the statement.
I don't think that is realistic.
Take for games like wow. Wow have 100 million account created, but there are only 7 million active players now.
Some released info showed only 1/3rd of people on wow trial actually subscribed, the numbers for Eve trial are close to 1/10.
I think you will always have a sharp drop off the first 1-3 month. Weather you continue to leak players after that is what determine a game's success.
wait what? games with depth typically do not need its player base wishing for the next content update. what are you looking for more quests?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
People have different definitions for sandbox and themepark. To me a sandbox is like the sandboxes we used as kids, four boards and sand where you could make castles, roads, whatever.
I like the terms story driven, like WoW versus player driven like Minecraft and Second Life.
A player driven world would be empty when you got there except for resources, like trees and rocks.
http://gnomophobia.com
Has nothing to do with my question... I asked, what would he do once he had finished his cabin and armor... simple question. He was against the endless grind for gear because it was an endless endeavor. I want to know what he plans to do when his endeavor isn't so endless... cabin is done, armor is done. What next?
Sandboxes... a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
I believe Black Desert has quests.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I dont know what specific game you guys are talking about but in the ones I play once I build my cabin then I can start a farm so that I can increase my first aid skill so that when I go out and fight some monsters I can heal myself. I can also use that food to tame animals to be my pets. And for horse if I tame them then I can craft a saddle and put that on him which makes me ride faster away from animals that I can not fight.
so here is my question, once you finish the quest to kill 100 rats...what do y9u do next?
ALL games have a end game and ALL games have a point where ones asks 'why I am doing this and whats next'
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Yes, but I asked sleepyfish... both times and you're the one replying... only he can answer this question.
ah I see you just want to win a debate with sleepyfish on a point you know to be invalid. (because you dont want to rebut my reply)
I got it...well good luck with that
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
WoW has been out for 10 years and didn't lose a 1/3 of it subs within a few months, it actually grew substantially. So you cannot try to argue and say that WoW is a part of failure because 100 million accounts have been created and only 7 million are active. The fact is WoW went from 500k subs to several million over several years.
Another example of a successful game would be EvE online. It started off with around 50k subs and grew to 500k+. Now that's not WoW numbers however, it grew overtime unlike many of today's MMO games which lost players within a month or a few months and never to regrow again at least with the subscription base model. F2P is another story.
Plus we're not talking about free trials, we're talking about active growth of subscriptions. If 500k players bought a game in the anticipation of it being good but find out that it sucked and a 1/3 of those players leave in the first month and more afterwards, that's not a success. Perhaps it was a success on marketing in attracting players into an unreleased game based off of marketing tactics and hype, but once the game is playable and if players are leaving within the first month or two then the game itself did not live up to expectations. It's really that simple.
Check out this article on Why Crafting Sucks
I self identify as a monkey.
By chance do any of those not have forced pvp junk? I recognize some people enjoy that kind of...play, but there are many of us who don't also. Just a curiosity thing; if they're not making a game targetted for me that's perfectly fine, I'd just kind-of like to know at the outset.
I love all the things sandbox offers until it hits that pvp/loot stuff. At that point I might as well tear my fingernails off slowly for the thrill of it, it'd feel about the same.
Right, but that dont' mean wow and eve are not lossing players, they are just gaining more than they loss.
I dont' think it will happen realistically to any games on the market. Since todays game usually build alot around hype. So there will always be huge sell initially. Many people will try it and decided it's not for them and leave.
Some of the games on the market now are doing fairly ok, for example GW2, FF14, SWTOR, still have strong population base. Even if they did have a sharp population fall of initially, they are at least sustainable so far.
Take for example the successful Eve game you are talking about. 90% of the people give up after the trial.
WoW has been out for 10 years and didn't lose a 1/3 of it subs within a few months, it actually grew substantially. So you cannot try to argue and say that WoW is a part of failure because 100 million accounts have been created and only 7 million are active. The fact is WoW went from 500k subs to several million over several years. Another example of a successful game would be EvE online. It started off with around 50k subs and grew to 500k+. Now that's not WoW numbers however, it grew overtime unlike many of today's MMO games which lost players within a month or a few months and never to regrow again at least with the subscription base model. F2P is another story. Plus we're not talking about free trials, we're talking about active growth of subscriptions. If 500k players bought a game in the anticipation of it being good but find out that it sucked and a 1/3 of those players leave in the first month and more afterwards, that's not a success. Perhaps it was a success on marketing in attracting players into an unreleased game based off of marketing tactics and hype, but once the game is playable and if players are leaving within the first month or two then the game itself did not live up to expectations. It's really that simple.
Right, but that dont' mean wow and eve are not lossing players, they are just gaining more than they loss.
I dont' think it will happen realistically to any games on the market. Since todays game usually build alot around hype. So there will always be huge sell initially. Many people will try it and decided it's not for them and leave.
Some of the games on the market now are doing fairly ok, for example GW2, FF14, SWTOR, still have strong population base. Even if they did have a sharp population fall of initially, they are at least sustainable so far.
Take for example the successful Eve game you are talking about. 90% of the people give up after the trial.
I am not talking about people who tried the game and leave. I am talking about growth. Like you said in your very first sentence. Wow and Eve are losing players but their net gain is bigger than their net loss which means they're gaining players. That's the bottom line. The bottom line is they're attracting more players WITH a subscription model unlike how SWTOR, WAR, WS are doing. GW2 can't speak of because it's not a sub game it's buy once and play and for that situation we have to compare it with other games that you purchase once like single player games and also look at the player activity of those who still play.
SWTOR is now under the F2P because in the sub model it failed and it failed because it couldn't convince players to justify paying $15 a month. A lot of players in SWTOR left after the first month or should I say their net loss of players were much bigger than their gains and it was just downhill from there and went F2P within its first year.
Check out this article on Why Crafting Sucks
What about a survival type MMO? Not like DayZ or anything. Need food and drink to live. No leveled zones. If a wolf is level 5 in one area it's level 5 everywhere. 1 wolf, no problem, a pack of wolves and you have issues. Factions. Territory and resource control. Open PVP with partial loot drop, 30% to 60%, I don't know just throwing a % out there. Item degradation. No leveling in the normal sense, bit instead infamy, honor etc etc. This would also be amazing to me if it was set in a Fallout or STALKER type world. I like fantasy but the market is saturated with it.
I guess essentially I want a Fallout hardcore mode MMO with open faction PVP. Housing would be great especially if in the urban environments you could renovate existing homes or apartments. I do play DayZ from time to time and what gets my blood pumping is me running solo and seeing a group of players which I have to hide from.
Or maybe I just don't know what I'm talking about......