What MineCraft proves is that marketing research and what AAA publishers consider as commonly accepted wisdom isn't always prophetic. If it were, Microsoft which does a ton of market research and is one of the biggest publishers around, would have built it in the first place and could have saved itself about 2.49 billion dollars.
Yes, Minecraft isn't an MMO but it is a game and a hugely successfull one, at that. The take away from Minecraft is more basic. It refutes the idea that the AAA publishers and market researchers ALWAYS know better and ALWAYS can predict success and failure. Had that idea been pitched to any of the big publishers 9 years ago, it would have been laughed out of the room.
MOST of the big companies today started out as an idea that was dismissed by the big players and industry leaders of thier day. Lest we forget, Microsoft itself and even the entire PC market was dismissed by IBM as something barely worth investing anything in which would never amount to anything more then a "niche hobbiest market with negligable proffits". In turn, Microsoft entirely dismissed the World Wide Web and this whole "internet thing" as something that would "never amount to much" and has been playing makeup ever since.
Here is the real difference between Indies and big companies (as a general rule)...
Indies are willing to take risks. They are driven by thier vision and thier passion more then anything else. They are closer to and communicate more (for real, not for show) with thier own fan base. They are setting out to make something that they want to see exist for it's own right....not just for the next quarterly proffit statement.
Big companies tend to want to "play it safe". Alot of time that means following formula's that have proven successfull to others in the past. They have to justify thier decisions to a slough of executives and investors who may never have even played a game themselves (or used whatever other product they are making) and the main passion that most of the upper tier executives there have is self-promotion and making sure that they don't risk thier own 401K's for anything.... which means never sticking your neck out for something that someone can later call you on if it doesn't work out. That's just the atmosphere that tends to exist in most really big companies.
Right now the AAA's are starting to reach out to the "sandbox" market and "sandbox" style features because the Themepark market is absolutely saturated with competition. They are desperate to diversify into other markets that haven't been as heavly tapped as the traditional Themeparks..... and they are also desperate to find a way to hold down the costs for releasing and maintaining interest in the next generation of games. Sandboxes are seen as one way to do that. It's not easy, even for the big guns, to raise $500 million plus in capital just to produce an MMO ....which is what a competitive AAA Themepark costs these days..... let alone keep up with regular content updates.
I have no idea if "Sandboxes" will be big in future or not.... but just because AAA developers didn't want to make them for awhile isn't determinitive of whether something will or will not be successfull in future.....and frankly, the next "huge thing" in entertainment is just as likely something some kid is dreaming up in his garage right now as it is something being discussed in a board room.
What MineCraft proves is that marketing research and what AAA publishers consider as commonly accepted wisdom isn't always prophetic.
Did someone say it was always prophetic?
Yes, Minecraft isn't an MMO but it is a game and a hugely successfull one, at that. The take away from Minecraft is more basic. It refutes the idea that the AAA publishers and market researchers ALWAYS know better and ALWAYS can predict success and failure.
I don't think anyone ever claimed they ALWAYS know better and ALWAYS can predict success. What people have said is that when you're putting millions of investor cash on the line or taking out a second mortgage to make a game, you usually go with the lower risk approach.
Do you consider Notch to be the exception or the rule when it comes to indie developer success/failure?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
What MineCraft proves is that marketing research and what AAA publishers consider as commonly accepted wisdom isn't always prophetic.
Did someone say it was always prophetic?
Yes, Minecraft isn't an MMO but it is a game and a hugely successfull one, at that. The take away from Minecraft is more basic. It refutes the idea that the AAA publishers and market researchers ALWAYS know better and ALWAYS can predict success and failure.
I don't think anyone ever claimed they ALWAYS know better and ALWAYS can predict success. What people have said is that when you're putting millions of investor cash on the line or taking out a second mortgage to make a game, you usually go with the lower risk approach.
Do you consider Notch to be the exception or the rule when it comes to indie developer success/failure?
Sure, startups (pretty much any industry...not just game development) come with a very high degree of failure. However, most things that ended up hugely successfull came with a high degree of risk involved. Look at aviation. How many inventors lost thier lives, let alone thier reputations and fortunes trying to figure out how to make powered flight possible?
People have all sorts of different tolerances for risk. As long as you are upfront with everyone, including yourself, what you are facing I don't see much issue with making riskier choice....and frankly sometimes a high degree of failure isn't a risk of much consequence to people. So I DONATE $20 to Kickstart a game that probably will never see the light of day...... so what? It's the same risk I take going to see some movie none of my freinds have seen yet or eat at a new resteraunt.... except the Kickstarter will cost me less and won't give me food poisoning if it turns out shoddy.
Funny how Minecraft can get at least the bare bones right, but you and others can't even give it props. No one else has even gotten close...but hey...
You people have no clue what you want (sand boxers). Any title that comes out will be inaddiquet....
People like to point to Minecraft. If that was the path to go, we'd all be playing Trove right now.
If Trove wasn't so cartoony and childish, more teens and adults would have interest in it. I'm not interested in blocky graphics either. Now imagine a Trove style gameplay that had realism that looked like UO, Lotro, EQ2, or AoC.
Exactly. Now imagine the cost in assets and manpower to do that. LOTRO has what... 1,500 character animations? Not frames... animations. When people spew these silly talking points they never actually walk through how that Minecrafte blockbuster becomes a blockbuster sandbox MMO.
You say this as if these multi-million dollar companies are incapable of hiring more devs. That's the whole point of this thread, that indie devs can accomplish better sandbox features with less resources. Now imagine if EA, or Activision, actually put resources and money into a sandbox MMO. In fact, SOE is doing just that with Landmark, and it's actually bringing sandbox features to the mainstream, along with EQ Next. Although i don't like the direction Landmark is going, i will still give it credit for actually implementing sandbox features.
c. story content? could not care less. Combat mechanics? I am looking for games that do not assume combat has to be a core part of the game play to begin with.
you are not the market. You don't care .. others do. Devs can cater to anyone. They have no obligations to cater to you.
And indie cannot cater to that market as well as AAA because they lacks the funds to create these things others care.
c. story content? could not care less. Combat mechanics? I am looking for games that do not assume combat has to be a core part of the game play to begin with.
you are not the market. You don't care .. others do. Devs can cater to anyone. They have no obligations to cater to you.
And indie cannot cater to that market as well as AAA because they lacks the funds to create these things others care.
That is fair enough.
I guess for me I dont see a 'story' as a 'feature'
I guess I see that indies have more features that I care about rather than features I dont care about like voice acting.
indie games that are doing well are making a SHIT TON of money per-employee.
Indie games that are not doing well, which is the majority of them, are sending their ex-employees on their way. The founders, people who often invested everything they have in the project, are scrambling to find a way to pay their overdue mortgages.
WF, you are conveniently ignoring the reality that for every sensational indie success story there are thousands of games that are, at best, mediocre. Many never see release.
This is such a weird conversation to have, as it is a common one the past few years, but it is no different than the conversations in countless garages and basements in the 80's, just with smaller electronics, shorter hair and a lot less feedback.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
indie games that are doing well are making a SHIT TON of money per-employee.
Indie games that are not doing well, which is the majority of them, are sending their ex-employees on their way. The founders, people who often invested everything they have in the project, are scrambling to find a way to pay their overdue mortgages.
WF, you are conveniently ignoring the reality that for every sensational indie success story there are thousands of games that are, at best, mediocre. Many never see release.
This is such a weird conversation to have, as it is a common one the past few years, but it is no different than the conversations in countless garages and basements in the 80's, just with smaller electronics, shorter hair and a lot less feedback.
sounds like we are both getting good at just making random shit up.
I was kind of hoping someone would call me on my 'fact' asking for evidence instead of just making up more random things.
fact is you dont know if the majority of indie games fail you just literally made that fact up.
indie games that are doing well are making a SHIT TON of money per-employee.
Indie games that are not doing well, which is the majority of them, are sending their ex-employees on their way. The founders, people who often invested everything they have in the project, are scrambling to find a way to pay their overdue mortgages.
WF, you are conveniently ignoring the reality that for every sensational indie success story there are thousands of games that are, at best, mediocre. Many never see release.
This is such a weird conversation to have, as it is a common one the past few years, but it is no different than the conversations in countless garages and basements in the 80's, just with smaller electronics, shorter hair and a lot less feedback.
sounds like we are both getting good at just making random shit up.
I was kind of hoping someone would call me on my 'fact' asking for evidence instead of just making up more random things.
fact is you dont know if the majority of indie games fail you just literally made that fact up.
I never said the majority of indie MMOs fail. I said the majority don't do well. I also added that many never see release.
Gods and Heroes (Perpetual Entertainment)
Gods and Heroes (Heatwave Interactive)
Pirates of the Burning Sea (Flying Lab)
Ancients of Fasaria (New Source)
Knights of Dream City (New Source)
Tooniverse
Aerrevan (Cube Force Media)
Divergence
APB (later rebooted as APB: Reloaded)
CrimeCraft
Perpetuum (Avatar Creations)
DragonGate (Gajatix)
Xsyon
Das Tale (Fairytale Distillery)
WISH
Taikodom (Hoplon)
Argentum Online
Roma Victor
Darkfall (Avwnturine)
Mortal Online (Starvault)
Winter's Twilight
FusionFall (Cartoon Network)
Rubies of Eventide
Horizons/Istaria
Dreamlords (Lockpick Entertainment)
Shadowbane (Wolfpack Studios)
Valkyrie Sky (VS Global)
Endless Online
Earth Eternal (Sparkplay)
Second Hand Lands (Ironwill Games)
Dreamlords: Resurrection (Lockpick Entertainment)
Fury (Aurum Interactive)
Fantasy Earth Zero
NEO Online
Dungeon Empires (Gamigo)
Mythic Realms
Dark and Light
Dragon Empires (Codemasters)
Star Trek Online
WorldAlpha
World of Pirates
Steel Legion
City of Eternals Online
Hawkwind: War on Wheels
ERA Online (Erling Ellingsen)
DAWN (Glitchless)
Embers of Caerus (Forsaken Studios)
The list goes on. Indie MMO developers simply have a lack luster track record. Of the indie MMOs that did well, the majority of them are browser games, specifically PBBGs and TCGs. Every once in a while you'll get a success story, most of which are MMOs that you probably wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole. Some indie MMOs do well and some show great innovation, for example:
A Tale in the Desert (eGenesis)
Puzzle Pirates (Three Rings Design)
Pirate101/Wizard101 (KingsIsle)
Travian (Travian Games)
Realm of the Mad God
Spiral Knights
Endless Forest
...but when looking at successful indie MMOs, you can easily see that a small slice of that already tiny list has a focus on sandbox gameplay. Historically, a sandbox-focused MMO made my an indie developer is most likely to release as a mediocre title or never release at all.
Drop the insults and profanity, start replying constructively, and then maybe we can have a really cool discussion about this.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
but again I can not stress this point strong enough and I have said it multiple times.
an indie game does not have to do 'well' (by your standards) to be successful
Do you know what indie company makes more money per employee than Microsoft? Valve.
If you team is small you dont have to be on everyones mind. See my point? this is EXACTLY why the larger firms are starting to pay attention. Small teams making a larger impact PER DOLLAR than the larger companies.
I would love it if you would explain what I just said back to me as a sign that you have read it and understand it.
but again I can not stress this point strong enough and I have said it multiple times.
an indie game does not have to do 'well' (by your standards) to be successful
Do you know what indie company makes more money per employee than Microsoft? Valve.
If you team is small you dont have to be on everyones mind. See my point? this is EXACTLY why the larger firms are starting to pay attention. Small teams making a larger impact PER DOLLAR than the larger companies.
I would love it if you would explain what I just said back to me as a sign that you have read it and understand it.
Yes, Valve does well. What sandbox MMO did they make?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
but again I can not stress this point strong enough and I have said it multiple times.
an indie game does not have to do 'well' (by your standards) to be successful
Do you know what indie company makes more money per employee than Microsoft? Valve.
If you team is small you dont have to be on everyones mind. See my point? this is EXACTLY why the larger firms are starting to pay attention. Small teams making a larger impact PER DOLLAR than the larger companies.
I would love it if you would explain what I just said back to me as a sign that you have read it and understand it.
Yes, Valve does well. What sandbox MMO did they make?
so what are we talking about here specifically?
that indie companies dont do well or that ONLY indie companies that make sandbox games dont do well?
indie games that are doing well are making a SHIT TON of money per-employee.
Indie games that are not doing well, which is the majority of them, are sending their ex-employees on their way. The founders, people who often invested everything they have in the project, are scrambling to find a way to pay their overdue mortgages.
WF, you are conveniently ignoring the reality that for every sensational indie success story there are thousands of games that are, at best, mediocre. Many never see release.
This is such a weird conversation to have, as it is a common one the past few years, but it is no different than the conversations in countless garages and basements in the 80's, just with smaller electronics, shorter hair and a lot less feedback.
sounds like we are both getting good at just making random shit up.
I was kind of hoping someone would call me on my 'fact' asking for evidence instead of just making up more random things.
fact is you dont know if the majority of indie games fail you just literally made that fact up.
I never said the majority of indie MMOs fail. I said the majority don't do well. I also added that many never see release.
Gods and Heroes (Perpetual Entertainment)
Gods and Heroes (Heatwave Interactive)
Pirates of the Burning Sea (Flying Lab)
Ancients of Fasaria (New Source)
Knights of Dream City (New Source)
Tooniverse
Aerrevan (Cube Force Media)
Divergence
APB (later rebooted as APB: Reloaded)
CrimeCraft
Perpetuum (Avatar Creations)
DragonGate (Gajatix)
Xsyon
Das Tale (Fairytale Distillery)
WISH
Taikodom (Hoplon)
Argentum Online
Roma Victor
Darkfall (Avwnturine)
Mortal Online (Starvault)
Winter's Twilight
FusionFall (Cartoon Network)
Rubies of Eventide
Horizons/Istaria
Dreamlords (Lockpick Entertainment)
Shadowbane (Wolfpack Studios)
Valkyrie Sky (VS Global)
Endless Online
Earth Eternal (Sparkplay)
Second Hand Lands (Ironwill Games)
Dreamlords: Resurrection (Lockpick Entertainment)
Fury (Aurum Interactive)
Fantasy Earth Zero
NEO Online
Dungeon Empires (Gamigo)
Mythic Realms
Dark and Light
Dragon Empires (Codemasters)
Star Trek Online
WorldAlpha
World of Pirates
Steel Legion
City of Eternals Online
Hawkwind: War on Wheels
ERA Online (Erling Ellingsen)
DAWN (Glitchless)
Embers of Caerus (Forsaken Studios)
The list goes on. Indie MMO developers simply have a lack luster track record. Of the indie MMOs that did well, the majority of them are browser games, specifically PBBGs and TCGs. Every once in a while you'll get a success story, most of which are MMOs that you probably wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole. Some indie MMOs do well and some show great innovation, for example:
A Tale in the Desert (eGenesis)
Puzzle Pirates (Three Rings Design)
Pirate101/Wizard101 (KingsIsle)
Travian (Travian Games)
Realm of the Mad God
Spiral Knights
Endless Forest
...but when looking at successful indie MMOs, you can easily see that a small slice of that already tiny list has a focus on sandbox gameplay. Historically, a sandbox-focused MMO made my an indie developer is most likely to release as a mediocre title or never release at all.
Drop the insults and profanity, start replying constructively, and then maybe we can have a really cool discussion about this.
That being said, I hope more indies start mmorpg projects (maybe even finish). So many ideas bouncing around I'd love to see implemented in my lifetime.
I am no doubt the AAA companies are watching for nuggets of wisdom in the indie-verse.
but again I can not stress this point strong enough and I have said it multiple times.
an indie game does not have to do 'well' (by your standards) to be successful
Do you know what indie company makes more money per employee than Microsoft? Valve.
If you team is small you dont have to be on everyones mind. See my point? this is EXACTLY why the larger firms are starting to pay attention. Small teams making a larger impact PER DOLLAR than the larger companies.
I would love it if you would explain what I just said back to me as a sign that you have read it and understand it.
Yes, Valve does well. What sandbox MMO did they make?
so what are we talking about here specifically?
that indie companies dont do well or that ONLY indie companies that make sandbox games dont do well?
We're all talking about indie devs that make sandbox MMOs. Topic hasn't changed.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
c. story content? could not care less. Combat mechanics? I am looking for games that do not assume combat has to be a core part of the game play to begin with.
you are not the market. You don't care .. others do. Devs can cater to anyone. They have no obligations to cater to you.
And indie cannot cater to that market as well as AAA because they lacks the funds to create these things others care.
That is fair enough.
I guess for me I dont see a 'story' as a 'feature'
I guess I see that indies have more features that I care about rather than features I dont care about like voice acting.
I suppose indie have more variety, and sometimes even odd ball stuff. However, there are indie games focusing on stories too. Gone Home is a great example. It has great character and story, and little gameplay. It is a success ... but it cannot hold up to AAA games in terms of production values, nor gameplay features.
I am sure there are indies games on the opposite side. The good news is that there are so many indies that everyone can find some games catering to them. The downside, of course, is production values, and gameplay features are close to what AAA can bring while AAA do not cater to niche preferences much.
but again I can not stress this point strong enough and I have said it multiple times.
an indie game does not have to do 'well' (by your standards) to be successful
Do you know what indie company makes more money per employee than Microsoft? Valve.
If you team is small you dont have to be on everyones mind. See my point? this is EXACTLY why the larger firms are starting to pay attention. Small teams making a larger impact PER DOLLAR than the larger companies.
I would love it if you would explain what I just said back to me as a sign that you have read it and understand it.
Yes, Valve does well. What sandbox MMO did they make?
so what are we talking about here specifically?
that indie companies dont do well or that ONLY indie companies that make sandbox games dont do well?
We're all talking about indie devs that make sandbox MMOs.
ok then given the word 'sandbox' is often used to argue a person out of any position they want what we will need from you is a list of games you ihink are sandboxes.
For me I consider Wurm Online to be a sandbox and as far as I can tell a success for the reasons i gave above.
That being said, I hope more indies start mmorpg projects (maybe even finish). So many ideas bouncing around I'd love to see implemented in my lifetime.
I am no doubt the AAA companies are watching for nuggets of wisdom in the indie-verse.
-WL
I think with all the platforms available and the impending augmented/virtual reality gadgets like Oculus Rift and Google Glass, we may see a major interface change that triggers a refreshed look at how players can interact with their games and what players can interact with. If that's the case, the type of interactive multiplayer games we play in the years to come will be unlike anything we know today.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by emperorwings Yes the indie devs are doing a better job. Unfortanately it takes a long time to make and only have a very small player base (50-100?) and it doesn't make money so you won't be seeing it in any AAA titles.
Are they?
Except for, say, CCP/EVE (which has had years to mature) how many indie companies/games have actually implemented their features in a reasonably good way? Where you don't bring the game up and say "oh, yeah, that's right it's indie" when you see the poor animations or you constantly get stuck some place or the lighting leaves something to be desired or the game is buggy has heck.
Darkfall is a brilliant and polished game in many respects, if not all.
Wurm has nearly zero bugs ....nearly zero.
Just because you have heard about them on the front page of the paid for advertising site doesnt mean they are not good. They just require a SHIT TON less money to be in the profit.
What I have found here is a lot of people basically making up stuff based on assumptions. They ASSUME most indie games are bad, the ASSUME most indie games have bugs but they have no idea if its actually true
I've heard of both and played both for a short bit.
they both still felt clunky and creaky.
I highlighted the word you should ponder
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
but again I can not stress this point strong enough and I have said it multiple times.
an indie game does not have to do 'well' (by your standards) to be successful
Do you know what indie company makes more money per employee than Microsoft? Valve.
If you team is small you dont have to be on everyones mind. See my point? this is EXACTLY why the larger firms are starting to pay attention. Small teams making a larger impact PER DOLLAR than the larger companies.
I would love it if you would explain what I just said back to me as a sign that you have read it and understand it.
Yes, Valve does well. What sandbox MMO did they make?
so what are we talking about here specifically?
that indie companies dont do well or that ONLY indie companies that make sandbox games dont do well?
We're all talking about indie devs that make sandbox MMOs.
ok then given the word 'sandbox' is often used to argue a person out of any position they want what we will need from you is a list of games you ihink are sandboxes.
For me I consider Wurm Online to be a sandbox and as far as I can tell a success for the reasons i gave above.
It's clear you just want to argue at this point. Congrats on being the first person I put on ignore this year. And here I thought i was going to make it to 2015 without one. Darn you! *waggles finger*
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
c. story content? could not care less. Combat mechanics? I am looking for games that do not assume combat has to be a core part of the game play to begin with.
you are not the market. You don't care .. others do. Devs can cater to anyone. They have no obligations to cater to you.
And indie cannot cater to that market as well as AAA because they lacks the funds to create these things others care.
That is fair enough.
I guess for me I dont see a 'story' as a 'feature'
I guess I see that indies have more features that I care about rather than features I dont care about like voice acting.
I suppose indie have more variety, and sometimes even odd ball stuff. However, there are indie games focusing on stories too. Gone Home is a great example. It has great character and story, and little gameplay. It is a success ... but it cannot hold up to AAA games in terms of production values, nor gameplay features.
I am sure there are indies games on the opposite side. The good news is that there are so many indies that everyone can find some games catering to them. The downside, of course, is production values, and gameplay features are close to what AAA can bring while AAA do not cater to niche preferences much.
I completely disagree with what is in yellow and I take strong issue with it for number of reasons.
1. 'cant hold a candle' is subjective. I personally think most AAA games are garbage and I think many indie games are fantastic by comparision. Doesnt that make my view subjective? kind of like....yours?
2. what sdoes 'production value' mean? it appears it doesnt mean bug free, it appears it doesnt mean quantity of features. It appears to only mean 'this is my out for speaking abstractly'.
does indie games have more features than AAA (bury the whole 'cant hold a candle' and 'odd ball' away for a moment just focus on pure numbers.
when someone says 'game X has more features' that is an agnostic statement the features DO NOT have to be good or to your likeing for the statement to be true or false.
how about addressing my points and staying on topic?
maybe you could suggest to the discussion how Sovrath knows most indie games have bugs? my experience has been they have a really low bug rate actually and I play them all the time. focus on the subject please
And if you are going to attribute something to "me" make sure you actually repeat what I said and not what you want me to have said:
Where you don't bring the game up and say "oh, yeah, that's right it's indie" when you see the poor animations or you constantly get stuck some place or the lighting leaves something to be desired or the game is buggy has heck.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Comments
What MineCraft proves is that marketing research and what AAA publishers consider as commonly accepted wisdom isn't always prophetic. If it were, Microsoft which does a ton of market research and is one of the biggest publishers around, would have built it in the first place and could have saved itself about 2.49 billion dollars.
Yes, Minecraft isn't an MMO but it is a game and a hugely successfull one, at that. The take away from Minecraft is more basic. It refutes the idea that the AAA publishers and market researchers ALWAYS know better and ALWAYS can predict success and failure. Had that idea been pitched to any of the big publishers 9 years ago, it would have been laughed out of the room.
MOST of the big companies today started out as an idea that was dismissed by the big players and industry leaders of thier day. Lest we forget, Microsoft itself and even the entire PC market was dismissed by IBM as something barely worth investing anything in which would never amount to anything more then a "niche hobbiest market with negligable proffits". In turn, Microsoft entirely dismissed the World Wide Web and this whole "internet thing" as something that would "never amount to much" and has been playing makeup ever since.
Here is the real difference between Indies and big companies (as a general rule)...
Indies are willing to take risks. They are driven by thier vision and thier passion more then anything else. They are closer to and communicate more (for real, not for show) with thier own fan base. They are setting out to make something that they want to see exist for it's own right....not just for the next quarterly proffit statement.
Big companies tend to want to "play it safe". Alot of time that means following formula's that have proven successfull to others in the past. They have to justify thier decisions to a slough of executives and investors who may never have even played a game themselves (or used whatever other product they are making) and the main passion that most of the upper tier executives there have is self-promotion and making sure that they don't risk thier own 401K's for anything.... which means never sticking your neck out for something that someone can later call you on if it doesn't work out. That's just the atmosphere that tends to exist in most really big companies.
Right now the AAA's are starting to reach out to the "sandbox" market and "sandbox" style features because the Themepark market is absolutely saturated with competition. They are desperate to diversify into other markets that haven't been as heavly tapped as the traditional Themeparks..... and they are also desperate to find a way to hold down the costs for releasing and maintaining interest in the next generation of games. Sandboxes are seen as one way to do that. It's not easy, even for the big guns, to raise $500 million plus in capital just to produce an MMO ....which is what a competitive AAA Themepark costs these days..... let alone keep up with regular content updates.
I have no idea if "Sandboxes" will be big in future or not.... but just because AAA developers didn't want to make them for awhile isn't determinitive of whether something will or will not be successfull in future.....and frankly, the next "huge thing" in entertainment is just as likely something some kid is dreaming up in his garage right now as it is something being discussed in a board room.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Sure, startups (pretty much any industry...not just game development) come with a very high degree of failure. However, most things that ended up hugely successfull came with a high degree of risk involved. Look at aviation. How many inventors lost thier lives, let alone thier reputations and fortunes trying to figure out how to make powered flight possible?
People have all sorts of different tolerances for risk. As long as you are upfront with everyone, including yourself, what you are facing I don't see much issue with making riskier choice....and frankly sometimes a high degree of failure isn't a risk of much consequence to people. So I DONATE $20 to Kickstart a game that probably will never see the light of day...... so what? It's the same risk I take going to see some movie none of my freinds have seen yet or eat at a new resteraunt.... except the Kickstarter will cost me less and won't give me food poisoning if it turns out shoddy.
when was the last successful Indie fantasy sandbox?
Indies have ideas, but they rarely see the light of day.
You say this as if these multi-million dollar companies are incapable of hiring more devs. That's the whole point of this thread, that indie devs can accomplish better sandbox features with less resources. Now imagine if EA, or Activision, actually put resources and money into a sandbox MMO. In fact, SOE is doing just that with Landmark, and it's actually bringing sandbox features to the mainstream, along with EQ Next. Although i don't like the direction Landmark is going, i will still give it credit for actually implementing sandbox features.
I think the conversation is going way OT here in arguing what is and isn't a sandbox.
I find the OP an odd statement to make since most, if not all, sandbox MMORPGs released in the last eleven years have been by indie studios.
I would love to see a well made sandbox with a AAA budget behind it.
you are not the market. You don't care .. others do. Devs can cater to anyone. They have no obligations to cater to you.
And indie cannot cater to that market as well as AAA because they lacks the funds to create these things others care.
They are business companies, they are after making money, not losing them.
That is fair enough.
I guess for me I dont see a 'story' as a 'feature'
I guess I see that indies have more features that I care about rather than features I dont care about like voice acting.
indie games that are doing well are making a SHIT TON of money per-employee.
In fact, its something that the larger companies are paying a lot of attention to.
Indie games that are not doing well, which is the majority of them, are sending their ex-employees on their way. The founders, people who often invested everything they have in the project, are scrambling to find a way to pay their overdue mortgages.
WF, you are conveniently ignoring the reality that for every sensational indie success story there are thousands of games that are, at best, mediocre. Many never see release.
This is such a weird conversation to have, as it is a common one the past few years, but it is no different than the conversations in countless garages and basements in the 80's, just with smaller electronics, shorter hair and a lot less feedback.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
sounds like we are both getting good at just making random shit up.
I was kind of hoping someone would call me on my 'fact' asking for evidence instead of just making up more random things.
fact is you dont know if the majority of indie games fail you just literally made that fact up.
I never said the majority of indie MMOs fail. I said the majority don't do well. I also added that many never see release.
The list goes on. Indie MMO developers simply have a lack luster track record. Of the indie MMOs that did well, the majority of them are browser games, specifically PBBGs and TCGs. Every once in a while you'll get a success story, most of which are MMOs that you probably wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole. Some indie MMOs do well and some show great innovation, for example:
...but when looking at successful indie MMOs, you can easily see that a small slice of that already tiny list has a focus on sandbox gameplay. Historically, a sandbox-focused MMO made my an indie developer is most likely to release as a mediocre title or never release at all.
Drop the insults and profanity, start replying constructively, and then maybe we can have a really cool discussion about this.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
but again I can not stress this point strong enough and I have said it multiple times.
an indie game does not have to do 'well' (by your standards) to be successful
Do you know what indie company makes more money per employee than Microsoft? Valve.
If you team is small you dont have to be on everyones mind. See my point? this is EXACTLY why the larger firms are starting to pay attention. Small teams making a larger impact PER DOLLAR than the larger companies.
I would love it if you would explain what I just said back to me as a sign that you have read it and understand it.
Yes, Valve does well. What sandbox MMO did they make?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
so what are we talking about here specifically?
that indie companies dont do well or that ONLY indie companies that make sandbox games dont do well?
That being said, I hope more indies start mmorpg projects (maybe even finish). So many ideas bouncing around I'd love to see implemented in my lifetime.
I am no doubt the AAA companies are watching for nuggets of wisdom in the indie-verse.
-WL
Werewolf Online(R) - Lead Developer
We're all talking about indie devs that make sandbox MMOs. Topic hasn't changed.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I suppose indie have more variety, and sometimes even odd ball stuff. However, there are indie games focusing on stories too. Gone Home is a great example. It has great character and story, and little gameplay. It is a success ... but it cannot hold up to AAA games in terms of production values, nor gameplay features.
I am sure there are indies games on the opposite side. The good news is that there are so many indies that everyone can find some games catering to them. The downside, of course, is production values, and gameplay features are close to what AAA can bring while AAA do not cater to niche preferences much.
ok then given the word 'sandbox' is often used to argue a person out of any position they want what we will need from you is a list of games you ihink are sandboxes.
For me I consider Wurm Online to be a sandbox and as far as I can tell a success for the reasons i gave above.
I think with all the platforms available and the impending augmented/virtual reality gadgets like Oculus Rift and Google Glass, we may see a major interface change that triggers a refreshed look at how players can interact with their games and what players can interact with. If that's the case, the type of interactive multiplayer games we play in the years to come will be unlike anything we know today.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I've heard of both and played both for a short bit.
they both still felt clunky and creaky.
I highlighted the word you should ponder
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
It's clear you just want to argue at this point. Congrats on being the first person I put on ignore this year. And here I thought i was going to make it to 2015 without one. Darn you! *waggles finger*
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I completely disagree with what is in yellow and I take strong issue with it for number of reasons.
1. 'cant hold a candle' is subjective. I personally think most AAA games are garbage and I think many indie games are fantastic by comparision. Doesnt that make my view subjective? kind of like....yours?
2. what sdoes 'production value' mean? it appears it doesnt mean bug free, it appears it doesnt mean quantity of features. It appears to only mean 'this is my out for speaking abstractly'.
does indie games have more features than AAA (bury the whole 'cant hold a candle' and 'odd ball' away for a moment just focus on pure numbers.
when someone says 'game X has more features' that is an agnostic statement the features DO NOT have to be good or to your likeing for the statement to be true or false.
And if you are going to attribute something to "me" make sure you actually repeat what I said and not what you want me to have said:
Where you don't bring the game up and say "oh, yeah, that's right it's indie" when you see the poor animations or you constantly get stuck some place or the lighting leaves something to be desired or the game is buggy has heck.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo