but again I can not stress this point strong enough and I have said it multiple times.
an indie game does not have to do 'well' (by your standards) to be successful
Do you know what indie company makes more money per employee than Microsoft? Valve.
If you team is small you dont have to be on everyones mind. See my point? this is EXACTLY why the larger firms are starting to pay attention. Small teams making a larger impact PER DOLLAR than the larger companies.
I would love it if you would explain what I just said back to me as a sign that you have read it and understand it.
Yes, Valve does well. What sandbox MMO did they make?
so what are we talking about here specifically?
that indie companies dont do well or that ONLY indie companies that make sandbox games dont do well?
We're all talking about indie devs that make sandbox MMOs.
ok then given the word 'sandbox' is often used to argue a person out of any position they want what we will need from you is a list of games you ihink are sandboxes.
For me I consider Wurm Online to be a sandbox and as far as I can tell a success for the reasons i gave above.
It's clear you just want to argue at this point. Congrats on being the first person I put on ignore this year. And here I thought i was going to make it to 2015 without one. Darn you! *waggles finger*
actually I think its the other way around. When people drag a conversation into 'sandbox' its almost always a trap.
That said, the only MMORPG Sandboxs that I know of that is an indie are Wurm Online, Eve Online and Xyson and I think 2 out of 3 of those are very successful.
how about addressing my points and staying on topic?
maybe you could suggest to the discussion how Sovrath knows most indie games have bugs? my experience has been they have a really low bug rate actually and I play them all the time. focus on the subject please
And if you are going to attribute something to "me" make sure you actually repeat what I said and not what you want me to have said:
Where you don't bring the game up and say "oh, yeah, that's right it's indie" when you see the poor animations or you constantly get stuck some place or the lighting leaves something to be desired or the game is buggy has heck.
again..
like what game.
I can not stress this point enough, I play indies pretty much all the time and I RARELY EVER EXPERIENCE BUGS.
Originally posted by emperorwings Yes the indie devs are doing a better job. Unfortanately it takes a long time to make and only have a very small player base (50-100?) and it doesn't make money so you won't be seeing it in any AAA titles.
Are they?
Except for, say, CCP/EVE (which has had years to mature) how many indie companies/games have actually implemented their features in a reasonably good way? Where you don't bring the game up and say "oh, yeah, that's right it's indie" when you see the poor animations or you constantly get stuck some place or the lighting leaves something to be desired or the game is buggy has heck.
Darkfall is a brilliant and polished game in many respects, if not all.
Wurm has nearly zero bugs ....nearly zero.
Just because you have heard about them on the front page of the paid for advertising site doesnt mean they are not good. They just require a SHIT TON less money to be in the profit.
What I have found here is a lot of people basically making up stuff based on assumptions. They ASSUME most indie games are bad, the ASSUME most indie games have bugs but they have no idea if its actually true
I've heard of both and played both for a short bit.
they both still felt clunky and creaky.
I highlighted the word you should ponder
clunky and creaky is far from 'bugs' and is highly subjective and abstract
what I wouldnt give for you guys to be a least a little specific. what horror this is.
Originally posted by emperorwings Yes the indie devs are doing a better job. Unfortanately it takes a long time to make and only have a very small player base (50-100?) and it doesn't make money so you won't be seeing it in any AAA titles.
Are they?
Except for, say, CCP/EVE (which has had years to mature) how many indie companies/games have actually implemented their features in a reasonably good way? Where you don't bring the game up and say "oh, yeah, that's right it's indie" when you see the poor animations or you constantly get stuck some place or the lighting leaves something to be desired or the game is buggy has heck.
Darkfall is a brilliant and polished game in many respects, if not all.
Wurm has nearly zero bugs ....nearly zero.
Just because you have heard about them on the front page of the paid for advertising site doesnt mean they are not good. They just require a SHIT TON less money to be in the profit.
What I have found here is a lot of people basically making up stuff based on assumptions. They ASSUME most indie games are bad, the ASSUME most indie games have bugs but they have no idea if its actually true
I've heard of both and played both for a short bit.
they both still felt clunky and creaky.
I highlighted the word you should ponder
clunky and creaky is far from 'bugs' and is highly subjective and abstract
what I wouldnt give for you guys to be a least a little specific. what horror this is.
When I go home tonight I will make a little list and post in this thread.
the key word there was "or" which I highlighted.
So I will list a few that had annoying bugs and a few that felt sort of cobbled together.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by emperorwings Yes the indie devs are doing a better job. Unfortanately it takes a long time to make and only have a very small player base (50-100?) and it doesn't make money so you won't be seeing it in any AAA titles.
Are they?
Except for, say, CCP/EVE (which has had years to mature) how many indie companies/games have actually implemented their features in a reasonably good way? Where you don't bring the game up and say "oh, yeah, that's right it's indie" when you see the poor animations or you constantly get stuck some place or the lighting leaves something to be desired or the game is buggy has heck.
Darkfall is a brilliant and polished game in many respects, if not all.
Wurm has nearly zero bugs ....nearly zero.
Just because you have heard about them on the front page of the paid for advertising site doesnt mean they are not good. They just require a SHIT TON less money to be in the profit.
What I have found here is a lot of people basically making up stuff based on assumptions. They ASSUME most indie games are bad, the ASSUME most indie games have bugs but they have no idea if its actually true
I've heard of both and played both for a short bit.
they both still felt clunky and creaky.
I highlighted the word you should ponder
clunky and creaky is far from 'bugs' and is highly subjective and abstract
what I wouldnt give for you guys to be a least a little specific. what horror this is.
When I go home tonight I will make a little list and post in this thread.
the key word there was "or" which I highlighted.
So I will list a few that had annoying bugs and a few that felt sort of cobbled together.
while your at it dont forget to add all the AAA bugs. Like what ArcheAge appears to be having.
I can not stress this point enough, I play indies pretty much all the time and I RARELY EVER EXPERIENCE BUGS.
Me too. The advantage of AAA over indie is not about bugs. Indie games usually have less scope, fewer systems, and hence fewer chances to have bugs.
And it is silly to choose between AAA and indies. It is easy to play both and choose based on the specific of games.
Case in point, the indie ARPG Van Helsing is great .... but of course it cannot be compared to D3 in terms of combat, the number of skills (and the effects) and the amount of content/polish.
However, it does not make it worthless. It is entertaining because of quirky characters, steampunk setting, and tongue-in-cheek writing. And there is no need to choose, i simply play both.
while your at it dont forget to add all the AAA bugs. Like what ArcheAge appears to be having.
Lots of work ahead of you.
I haven't found a huge amount of bugs in Archeage yet. I've found a few. And "yes" I understand that all games have bugs. It's the weird, off putting bugs that are usually the issue in any game.
What I have found in archeage is a horrible lag. I'm not sure if it's different from area to area or if it's because the entire server has a huge amount of people on it.
You see Willow, I never said that AAA games don't have bugs. You "assume" (there is your word for the day) a lot and think that if I point out that Indy games tend to feel "Indy" and that they have bugs that I am then saying AAA games "don't" have bugs.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
while your at it dont forget to add all the AAA bugs. Like what ArcheAge appears to be having.
Lots of work ahead of you.
I haven't found a huge amount of bugs in Archeage yet. I've found a few. And "yes" I understand that all games have bugs. It's the weird, off putting bugs that are usually the issue in any game.
What I have found in archeage is a horrible lag. I'm not sure if it's different from area to area or if it's because the entire server has a huge amount of people on it.
You see Willow, I never said that AAA games don't have bugs. You "assume" (there is your word for the day) a lot and think that if I point out that Indy games tend to feel "Indy" and that they have bugs that I am then saying AAA games "don't" have bugs.
statement
'indies have a lot of bugs'
am I not to assume that means AAAs have less? or are you suggesting they both have the same which if you are making such a statement would not make any sense
If it makes you feel any better yet I make assumptions too. There are degrees of assumptions though arent there?
'statements like 95% of all indies fail' is clearly an bad assumption unless someone has done some research.
I would hate for either of us to be working for NASA but maybe just maybe we need to practice better displine about our statements?
actually I think its the other way around. When people drag a conversation into 'sandbox' its almost always a trap.
That said, the only MMORPG Sandboxs that I know of that is an indie are Wurm Online, Eve Online and Xyson and I think 2 out of 3 of those are very successful.
Is CCP still an "indie developer"?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
am I not to assume that means AAAs have less? or are you suggesting they both have the same which if you are making such a statement would not make any sense
no:
I will post this one more time and then make an addendum:
when you see the poor animations or you constantly get stuck some place or the lighting leaves something to be desired or the game is buggy has (sic) heck. (should be as heck)
I never ever said "Indy games have a lot of bugs" Because that implies that all indy games have a lot of bugs. Now I'm going to check to see if english is your first language because I suspect it isn't so I'm sorry if what I'm writing isn't coming across clearly.
No, i guess you are from Houston.
In any case, I've never played a AAA game that I would call "buggy as heck". I've played AAA games that did have bugs. But all games have bugs. It's the bugs that are constantly niggling away at your game play that are the issue.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
actually I think its the other way around. When people drag a conversation into 'sandbox' its almost always a trap.
That said, the only MMORPG Sandboxs that I know of that is an indie are Wurm Online, Eve Online and Xyson and I think 2 out of 3 of those are very successful.
Is CCP still an "indie developer"?
I dont know..is it a sandbox?
Maybe Wurm Online is the only sandbox MMORPG in existence for that matter.
Generally speaking CCP is considered an indie, if not then I guess we need to define which games we are talking about when we say indies.
am I not to assume that means AAAs have less? or are you suggesting they both have the same which if you are making such a statement would not make any sense
no:
I will post this one more time and then make an addendum:
when you see the poor animations or you constantly get stuck some place or the lighting leaves something to be desired or the game is buggy has (sic) heck. (should be as heck)
I never ever said "Indy games have a lot of bugs" Because that implies that all indy games have a lot of bugs. Now I'm going to check to see if english is your first language because I suspect it isn't so I'm sorry if what I'm writing isn't coming across clearly.
sorry I assume that when you said 'buggy as heck' that you mean to suggest AAAs are not 'buggy as heck' Am I now to understand that you do think AAA are also 'buggy as heck' in which case I have to ask why are you using something you see to be in both types as a differentiator in your points?
That is like saying indie games use the mouse well..yeah...so does AAA
am I not to assume that means AAAs have less? or are you suggesting they both have the same which if you are making such a statement would not make any sense
no:
I will post this one more time and then make an addendum:
when you see the poor animations or you constantly get stuck some place or the lighting leaves something to be desired or the game is buggy has (sic) heck. (should be as heck)
I never ever said "Indy games have a lot of bugs" Because that implies that all indy games have a lot of bugs. Now I'm going to check to see if english is your first language because I suspect it isn't so I'm sorry if what I'm writing isn't coming across clearly.
sorry I assume that when you said 'buggy as heck' that you mean to suggest AAAs are not 'buggy as heck' Am I now to understand that you do think AAA are also 'buggy as heck' in which case I have to ask why are you using something you see to be in both types as a differentiator in your points?
That is like saying indie games use the mouse well..yeah...so does AAA
Well, not exactly but close.
I haven't played many AAA games that were "buggy as heck". Some. Age of Conan and Warhammer Online were "buggy as heck". Dark Fall might have had bugs that people who played the game extensively might point to. My experience with Dark Fall was bad animations, trying to hit mobs but never clear if I was connecting yet they would hit me even if they were slightly to far. Tera does the action combat better. Now, I haven't played the second incarnation of Darkfall so maybe that was changed. Mortal online had a host of odd issues for me. Problems getting the client up and running, poor animations, animals that seemed to not quite touch the ground and the game would "catch" for me at times. As if the game would freeze for a moment and then resume. got stuck a lot.
I've played a lot of indy single player games (which is why I need to check my games at home) that had huge issues that made the game virtually unplayable. From crashing all the time to odd graphical anomalies such as black screens or textures that didn't load correctly.
However, for single player and online games, my memory for titles is really bad so I need to go through the mmo list and visit the games and find the titles that I have tried which I felt were technically "awful" other than what I described above for Dark Fall and Mortal Online.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
am I not to assume that means AAAs have less? or are you suggesting they both have the same which if you are making such a statement would not make any sense
no:
I will post this one more time and then make an addendum:
when you see the poor animations or you constantly get stuck some place or the lighting leaves something to be desired or the game is buggy has (sic) heck. (should be as heck)
I never ever said "Indy games have a lot of bugs" Because that implies that all indy games have a lot of bugs. Now I'm going to check to see if english is your first language because I suspect it isn't so I'm sorry if what I'm writing isn't coming across clearly.
sorry I assume that when you said 'buggy as heck' that you mean to suggest AAAs are not 'buggy as heck' Am I now to understand that you do think AAA are also 'buggy as heck' in which case I have to ask why are you using something you see to be in both types as a differentiator in your points?
That is like saying indie games use the mouse well..yeah...so does AAA
Well, not exactly but close.
I haven't played many AAA games that were "buggy as heck". Some. Age of Conan and Warhammer Online were "buggy as heck". Dark Fall might have had bugs that people who played the game extensively might point to. My experience with Dark Fall was bad animations, trying to hit mobs but never clear if I was connecting yet they would hit me even if they were slightly to far. Tera does the action combat better. Now, I haven't played the second incarnation of Darkfall so maybe that was changed. Mortal online had a host of odd issues for me. Problems getting the client up and running, poor animations, animals that seemed to not quite touch the ground and the game would "catch" for me at times. As if the game would freeze for a moment and then resume. got stuck a lot.
I've played a lot of indy single player games (which is why I need to check my games at home) that had huge issues that made the game virtually unplayable. From crashing all the time to odd graphical anomalies such as black screens or textures that didn't load correctly.
However, for single player and online games, my memory for titles is really bad so I need to go through the mmo list and visit the games and find the titles that I have tried which I felt were technically "awful" other than what I described above for Dark Fall and Mortal Online.
some of what you have explained I wouldnt consider bugs. Like bad animation.
Having said that here is my list
Darkfall = I know there were some actual bugs but I never experienced any of them that I was aware of
Wurm Online = I was able to find one bug that was really hard to get to. I wasnt looking for it but a variety of circumstances involved did cause the bug. They have had server lags in the past but hell who hasnt! The setup for 64bit is a pain in the ass and I would call that a bug.
Xyson = buggy as hell
EVE Online = never had a bug that I was aware of.
Fallen Earth = I do not recall any bug
Single Player games:
EuroTruck Simulator = I dont recall any bug
Kerbal Space Program = I dont recall any bug
Space Engineer = there was a bug but I dont recall what it was but for a game that isnt even offically released its really solid
Mount and Blade = I dont recall any bug but I didnt play it for very long
Jagged Edge online = no bugs I recall
Arma 3 = no bugs that were not related to me not having a better video card.
Slient Storm = perfect until I switched to Vista or Windows 7. unplayable at that point.
Maybe what I should say instead is 'the indie games I play dont have bugs because I am awesome that way'
some of what you have explained I wouldnt consider bugs. Like bad animation.
Having said that here is my list
Darkfall = I know there were some actual bugs but I never experienced any of them that I was aware of
Wurm Online = I was able to find one bug that was really hard to get to. I wasnt looking for it but a variety of circumstances involved did cause the bug. They have had server lags in the past but hell who hasnt! The setup for 64bit is a pain in the ass and I would call that a bug.
Xyson = buggy as hell
EVE Online = never had a bug that I was aware of.
Fallen Earth = I do not recall any bug
Single Player games:
EuroTruck Simulator = I dont recall any bug
Kerbal Space Program = I dont recall any bug
Space Engineer = there was a bug but I dont recall what it was but for a game that isnt even offically released its really solid
Mount and Blade = I dont recall any bug but I didnt play it for very long
Jagged Edge online = no bugs I recall
Arma 3 = no bugs that were not related to me not having a better video card.
Slient Storm = perfect until I switched to Vista or Windows 7. unplayable at that point.
Maybe what I should say instead is 'the indie games I play dont have bugs because I am awesome that way'
You have a very selective memory or you are incapable of recognizing when something is not working as its supposed to. Either way, I would advice against seeking a career in quality assurance.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
some of what you have explained I wouldnt consider bugs. Like bad animation.
Having said that here is my list
Darkfall = I know there were some actual bugs but I never experienced any of them that I was aware of
Wurm Online = I was able to find one bug that was really hard to get to. I wasnt looking for it but a variety of circumstances involved did cause the bug. They have had server lags in the past but hell who hasnt! The setup for 64bit is a pain in the ass and I would call that a bug.
Xyson = buggy as hell
EVE Online = never had a bug that I was aware of.
Fallen Earth = I do not recall any bug
Single Player games:
EuroTruck Simulator = I dont recall any bug
Kerbal Space Program = I dont recall any bug
Space Engineer = there was a bug but I dont recall what it was but for a game that isnt even offically released its really solid
Mount and Blade = I dont recall any bug but I didnt play it for very long
Jagged Edge online = no bugs I recall
Arma 3 = no bugs that were not related to me not having a better video card.
Slient Storm = perfect until I switched to Vista or Windows 7. unplayable at that point.
Maybe what I should say instead is 'the indie games I play dont have bugs because I am awesome that way'
You have a very selective memory or you are incapable of recognizing when something is not working as its supposed to. Either way, I would advice against seeking a career in quality assurance.
no examples?
just a few..i hope they are actually bugs and not deployments that didnt meet your understanding from the dev blogs
Mount and Blade = I dont recall any bug but I didnt play it for very long
Again, it's really important not to fixate on the "bugs" part. There's more to the Indy "less than quality" than bugs.
I'll use your Mount and blade example above.
Now, just to say up front, I think Mount and Blade is a great game based on what it does. But remember above when I mentioned "creaky"?
Well, "Mount and Blade is "Creaky".
The animations always feel, off, sometimes I didn't "connect" to my opponent the way I should. I can't tell you how many times I thought I blocked something and still received damage. The bodies moved oddly. There were times the lighting was off and felt a bit harsh. This is the first Mount and Blade as I never played the others. Or heck, never played all of the first mount and blade because the game didn't feel "right". That's one for the list.
Now compare that to, say, guild wars 2 which I was playing a bit a day ago. I had to stop playing as I just has to marvel at some of the small movements one's character would do when they started to run or stopped.
Mount and Blade "kind of looks good" at first glance but when you see things moving it doesn't seem natural or smooth.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by Atadis Is it just me or do some of the more indie MMO's seem to grab the whole "sandbox" concept much better than some of these big AAA titles that have pushed the word to overhype their game. I mean AA is a good game but it's not a sandbox nor does it feel sandbox to me at all. It's just a huge mess that you get when you put limited sanbox features in a themepark. Not trying to turn this into an AA post but it's just the most recent one that is going to open it's doors soon and before they even open them all the way it's worse than some of the other games I have played with "sandbox" features. I'm looking forward to seeing how the mmo genre makes the whole concept of sandbox and sandpark games into better games but to me some of the more indie devs are managing to do this, or at least seem to be, better than some of these big companies. Just my thoughts on the whole subject though.
It's not that they are doing it better it's that they are doing it to draw a niche cause they know their limited resources will never be able to compete with WoW or EQ on creating a Themepark MMO with millions of subscribers. Instead they'll create something small, often times lacking decent production and slap full loot PvP and c all it a sandbox with no or limited systems in place to appeal to the common player. All they need is some crafting, a large blank world and a few roaming mobs and they have a game, they can't publish the finer intricacies of things like Questing or other forms of content so they stick to the lowest and most easiest form of content for MMO's the sandbox PvP model.
Fortunately this is about to get upended by the mother of all PvE sandbox games in EQN and hopefully it'll force other Triple-A studios to design PvE Sandboxes.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Mount and Blade = I dont recall any bug but I didnt play it for very long
Again, it's really important not to fixate on the "bugs" part. There's more to the Indy "less than quality" than bugs.
I'll use your Mount and blade example above.
Now, just to say up front, I think Mount and Blade is a great game based on what it does. But remember above when I mentioned "creaky"?
Well, "Mount and Blade is "Creaky".
The animations always feel, off, sometimes I didn't "connect" to my opponent the way I should. I can't tell you how many times I thought I blocked something and still received damage. The bodies moved oddly. There were times the lighting was off and felt a bit harsh. This is the first Mount and Blade as I never played the others. Or heck, never played all of the first mount and blade because the game didn't feel "right". That's one for the list.
Now compare that to, say, guild wars 2 which I was playing a bit a day ago. I had to stop playing as I just has to marvel at some of the small movements one's character would do when they started to run or stopped.
Mount and Blade "kind of looks good" at first glance but when you see things moving it doesn't seem natural or smooth.
I thought Mount and Blade was friggin awesome design which is why I want people to not mix up 'bugs' with 'designs they do not like' because one is not the other.
I dont have an issue with someone saying 'I feel most indie games do not run like AAA games do in my preference' But what is being said instead is 'buggy as hell'.
That is worse than me saying 'AAA games are cartoonish as hell'
as far as Mount and Blade specifically what you are calling clunky is actually designed that way on purpose. Its supposed to be more realistic.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Actually he said two other things than stuff OR buggy as heck. You've focused on the buggy part as if that's all he said which of course isn't true.
yes I am focused on the buggy part because I am trying to un-fuck the bug of that statement.
as far as Mount and Blade specifically what you are calling clunky is actually designed that way on purpose. Its supposed to be more realistic.
no, there is a difference between "realistic" and "clunky".
Mount and Blade felt clunky.
Bodies moving oddly, weird animations, not connecting when I should have connected, especially on the mount. Odd lighting issues.
I thought the game design, what they were going for was great. But the implementation wasn't.
There is a difference between "realistic" where you have combatants that are hitting, bobbing and weaving as a combatant would do and having the combatants move oddly, feel slidey n the ground, etc.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
as far as Mount and Blade specifically what you are calling clunky is actually designed that way on purpose. Its supposed to be more realistic.
no, there is a difference between "realistic" and "clunky".
Mount and Blade felt clunky.
Bodies moving oddly, weird animations, not connecting when I should have connected, especially on the mount. Odd lighting issues.
I thought the game design, what they were going for was great. But the implementation wasn't.
There is a difference between "realistic" where you have combatants that are hitting, bobbing and weaving as a combatant would do and having the combatants move oddly, feel slidey n the ground, etc.
the core point I am making with Mount and Blade is that its designed EXACTLY AS THEY HAD PLANNED.
you might not agree with the method of combat but its not a bug nor was it lazy design, its was EXPLICTLY done that way on purpose and many people understand why. That is light years away from bug
Comments
actually I think its the other way around. When people drag a conversation into 'sandbox' its almost always a trap.
That said, the only MMORPG Sandboxs that I know of that is an indie are Wurm Online, Eve Online and Xyson and I think 2 out of 3 of those are very successful.
again..
like what game.
I can not stress this point enough, I play indies pretty much all the time and I RARELY EVER EXPERIENCE BUGS.
so be specific, be concrete, give examples.
clunky and creaky is far from 'bugs' and is highly subjective and abstract
what I wouldnt give for you guys to be a least a little specific. what horror this is.
When I go home tonight I will make a little list and post in this thread.
the key word there was "or" which I highlighted.
So I will list a few that had annoying bugs and a few that felt sort of cobbled together.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
while your at it dont forget to add all the AAA bugs. Like what ArcheAge appears to be having.
Lots of work ahead of you.
Me too. The advantage of AAA over indie is not about bugs. Indie games usually have less scope, fewer systems, and hence fewer chances to have bugs.
And it is silly to choose between AAA and indies. It is easy to play both and choose based on the specific of games.
Case in point, the indie ARPG Van Helsing is great .... but of course it cannot be compared to D3 in terms of combat, the number of skills (and the effects) and the amount of content/polish.
However, it does not make it worthless. It is entertaining because of quirky characters, steampunk setting, and tongue-in-cheek writing. And there is no need to choose, i simply play both.
I haven't found a huge amount of bugs in Archeage yet. I've found a few. And "yes" I understand that all games have bugs. It's the weird, off putting bugs that are usually the issue in any game.
What I have found in archeage is a horrible lag. I'm not sure if it's different from area to area or if it's because the entire server has a huge amount of people on it.
You see Willow, I never said that AAA games don't have bugs. You "assume" (there is your word for the day) a lot and think that if I point out that Indy games tend to feel "Indy" and that they have bugs that I am then saying AAA games "don't" have bugs.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
statement
'indies have a lot of bugs'
am I not to assume that means AAAs have less? or are you suggesting they both have the same which if you are making such a statement would not make any sense
If it makes you feel any better yet I make assumptions too. There are degrees of assumptions though arent there?
'statements like 95% of all indies fail' is clearly an bad assumption unless someone has done some research.
I would hate for either of us to be working for NASA but maybe just maybe we need to practice better displine about our statements?
Is CCP still an "indie developer"?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
no:
I will post this one more time and then make an addendum:
when you see the poor animations or you constantly get stuck some place or the lighting leaves something to be desired or the game is buggy has (sic) heck. (should be as heck)
I never ever said "Indy games have a lot of bugs" Because that implies that all indy games have a lot of bugs. Now I'm going to check to see if english is your first language because I suspect it isn't so I'm sorry if what I'm writing isn't coming across clearly.
No, i guess you are from Houston.
In any case, I've never played a AAA game that I would call "buggy as heck". I've played AAA games that did have bugs. But all games have bugs. It's the bugs that are constantly niggling away at your game play that are the issue.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I dont know..is it a sandbox?
Maybe Wurm Online is the only sandbox MMORPG in existence for that matter.
Generally speaking CCP is considered an indie, if not then I guess we need to define which games we are talking about when we say indies.
sorry I assume that when you said 'buggy as heck' that you mean to suggest AAAs are not 'buggy as heck' Am I now to understand that you do think AAA are also 'buggy as heck' in which case I have to ask why are you using something you see to be in both types as a differentiator in your points?
That is like saying indie games use the mouse well..yeah...so does AAA
Well, not exactly but close.
I haven't played many AAA games that were "buggy as heck". Some. Age of Conan and Warhammer Online were "buggy as heck". Dark Fall might have had bugs that people who played the game extensively might point to. My experience with Dark Fall was bad animations, trying to hit mobs but never clear if I was connecting yet they would hit me even if they were slightly to far. Tera does the action combat better. Now, I haven't played the second incarnation of Darkfall so maybe that was changed. Mortal online had a host of odd issues for me. Problems getting the client up and running, poor animations, animals that seemed to not quite touch the ground and the game would "catch" for me at times. As if the game would freeze for a moment and then resume. got stuck a lot.
I've played a lot of indy single player games (which is why I need to check my games at home) that had huge issues that made the game virtually unplayable. From crashing all the time to odd graphical anomalies such as black screens or textures that didn't load correctly.
However, for single player and online games, my memory for titles is really bad so I need to go through the mmo list and visit the games and find the titles that I have tried which I felt were technically "awful" other than what I described above for Dark Fall and Mortal Online.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
some of what you have explained I wouldnt consider bugs. Like bad animation.
Having said that here is my list
Darkfall = I know there were some actual bugs but I never experienced any of them that I was aware of
Wurm Online = I was able to find one bug that was really hard to get to. I wasnt looking for it but a variety of circumstances involved did cause the bug. They have had server lags in the past but hell who hasnt! The setup for 64bit is a pain in the ass and I would call that a bug.
Xyson = buggy as hell
EVE Online = never had a bug that I was aware of.
Fallen Earth = I do not recall any bug
Single Player games:
EuroTruck Simulator = I dont recall any bug
Kerbal Space Program = I dont recall any bug
Space Engineer = there was a bug but I dont recall what it was but for a game that isnt even offically released its really solid
Mount and Blade = I dont recall any bug but I didnt play it for very long
Jagged Edge online = no bugs I recall
Arma 3 = no bugs that were not related to me not having a better video card.
Slient Storm = perfect until I switched to Vista or Windows 7. unplayable at that point.
Maybe what I should say instead is 'the indie games I play dont have bugs because I am awesome that way'
You have a very selective memory or you are incapable of recognizing when something is not working as its supposed to. Either way, I would advice against seeking a career in quality assurance.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
no examples?
just a few..i hope they are actually bugs and not deployments that didnt meet your understanding from the dev blogs
Again, it's really important not to fixate on the "bugs" part. There's more to the Indy "less than quality" than bugs.
I'll use your Mount and blade example above.
Now, just to say up front, I think Mount and Blade is a great game based on what it does. But remember above when I mentioned "creaky"?
Well, "Mount and Blade is "Creaky".
The animations always feel, off, sometimes I didn't "connect" to my opponent the way I should. I can't tell you how many times I thought I blocked something and still received damage. The bodies moved oddly. There were times the lighting was off and felt a bit harsh. This is the first Mount and Blade as I never played the others. Or heck, never played all of the first mount and blade because the game didn't feel "right". That's one for the list.
Now compare that to, say, guild wars 2 which I was playing a bit a day ago. I had to stop playing as I just has to marvel at some of the small movements one's character would do when they started to run or stopped.
Mount and Blade "kind of looks good" at first glance but when you see things moving it doesn't seem natural or smooth.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
It's not that they are doing it better it's that they are doing it to draw a niche cause they know their limited resources will never be able to compete with WoW or EQ on creating a Themepark MMO with millions of subscribers. Instead they'll create something small, often times lacking decent production and slap full loot PvP and c all it a sandbox with no or limited systems in place to appeal to the common player. All they need is some crafting, a large blank world and a few roaming mobs and they have a game, they can't publish the finer intricacies of things like Questing or other forms of content so they stick to the lowest and most easiest form of content for MMO's the sandbox PvP model.
Fortunately this is about to get upended by the mother of all PvE sandbox games in EQN and hopefully it'll force other Triple-A studios to design PvE Sandboxes.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
I thought Mount and Blade was friggin awesome design which is why I want people to not mix up 'bugs' with 'designs they do not like' because one is not the other.
I dont have an issue with someone saying 'I feel most indie games do not run like AAA games do in my preference' But what is being said instead is 'buggy as hell'.
That is worse than me saying 'AAA games are cartoonish as hell'
as far as Mount and Blade specifically what you are calling clunky is actually designed that way on purpose. Its supposed to be more realistic.
yes I am focused on the buggy part because I am trying to un-fuck the bug of that statement.
no, there is a difference between "realistic" and "clunky".
Mount and Blade felt clunky.
Bodies moving oddly, weird animations, not connecting when I should have connected, especially on the mount. Odd lighting issues.
I thought the game design, what they were going for was great. But the implementation wasn't.
There is a difference between "realistic" where you have combatants that are hitting, bobbing and weaving as a combatant would do and having the combatants move oddly, feel slidey n the ground, etc.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
the core point I am making with Mount and Blade is that its designed EXACTLY AS THEY HAD PLANNED.
you might not agree with the method of combat but its not a bug nor was it lazy design, its was EXPLICTLY done that way on purpose and many people understand why. That is light years away from bug
I doubt they planned it to be clunky.