They didn't like that the raid fight they'd been struggling with had its mechanics changed and therefore quit. Sounds like more of a rage quit to me but guilds quit games, it happens, save for the fact that they're #2 and not #1. Might as well post about #5 while you're at it.
Originally posted by Mange1 They didn't like that the raid fight they'd been struggling with had its mechanics changed and therefore quit. Sounds like more of a rage quit to me but guilds quit games, it happens, save for the fact that they're #2 and not #1. Might as well post about #5 while you're at it.
Top progression guilds don't just "rage quit".... none of actual progression guilds "rage quite." Voodoo's action of quiting is just proof that Carbine's philosophy is severely flawed when it comes to content. Many have already pointed out writing on the wall since beta, this is just proof that the "haters" actually were pretty much on target at least in the context of this thread.
Even if they were guild #8 or #10, it doesn't matter their ranking as very few guilds reach these levels. Carbine trumps about how "hardcore" raiding is the new it and yet those who severely tested stuff, were in credits, contributed significantly to testing are quiting shortly after launch. These guilds stay with a game and aren't fickle to say the least.
Seems that the pool of players who want to raid 6-7 days a week is smaller than they anticipated. It's not necessarily a lack of players with the skill to be at the time. Not at world first level. You have to be really good, AND be able to play full time job hours.
When my guild was disbanded upon us because leaders were quitting and just shut it all down, many members were approached by world first guilds since we had a 20 man that had cleared Genetic Archives. We raided 16 hours a week, (4 hours per raid, 4 days a week). But making a jump from that schedule to 5 hours 6-7 days is an enormous jump that almost none of us (I think one did) wanted to make the commitment for.
It works in WoW because it's only a month or so before you clear hard modes, that is not the case for Wildstar. You can take a few weeks off work and do the heavy lifting of learning a raid in WoW. There is still nobody to clear the 40 man in Wildstar. The amount of players that can raid at their pace for an extended period of time is VERY small, even amongst the community of players that call themselves "hardcore"
I saw a post on the forums where someone from Enigma said [paraphrased] "After the initial push we drop our schedule down to a 20 hour a week schedule".....that is a level that even most hardcore players don't want to go.
The other factor that makes it work in WoW is the population. There are a lot more players in WoW than Wildstar, so the chances of there being that type of player are greater. With a smaller population, they are probably much more rare.
Most end game guilds dont raid 6-7 days a week most the time. End game guilds only do that for about a month or even less depending on how long/hard the content is they are trying to become 1st for. most might raid 2-3 days out the week at most.
I see a lot of W* fanboys arguing that Voodoo didn't leave because of 40man. Yet, they blame buggy raids as the main cause(you'd be naive to think that's the only reason). They quit because of buggy 40mans. In short, Carbine bit off more than they could chew by implementing 40man raids with such a small game compared to the other juggernaut of the MMO world. So, they say they quit because of bugs in 40man, yet claim it wasn't because of 40man. They are both directly related so they did quit because of 40man. Guaranteed that if 40man wasn't a thing Carbine would be able to focus test 20mans more and with more people and they would still be raiding. I hate to see what Carbine will do when they realize no one is doing their 40mans in the future and resources are going to waste for essentially a flight of fancy.
Originally posted by intrinsc I see a lot of W* fanboys arguing that Voodoo didn't leave because of 40man. Yet, they blame buggy raids as the main cause(you'd be naive to think that's the only reason). They quit because of buggy 40mans. In short, Carbine bit off more than they could chew by implementing 40man raids with such a small game compared to the other juggernaut of the MMO world. So, they say they quit because of bugs in 40man, yet claim it wasn't because of 40man. They are both directly related so they did quit because of 40man. Guaranteed that if 40man wasn't a thing Carbine would be able to focus test 20mans more and with more people and they would still be raiding. I hate to see what Carbine will do when they realize no one is doing their 40mans in the future and resources are going to waste for essentially a flight of fancy.
You raise a very good point. Since Voodoo is out of the progression picture now, that leaves 2 guild actually downing stuff in it....one guild is only 3/9 (same as Voodoo, and for the same reason, broken encounters), and the other is 2/9 (due to a mixture of the same issue + attendance issues). Blizz said for years that it was almost stupid to design art/story/encounters that only a small % of players would ever see, which is why they smartly implemented easier versions (all the while making the hard versions get harder and harder over the years). That "small %" in wow was still about 100 guilds........how many resources do you think Carbine is gonna put towards creating another 40 man tier that only 2 guilds in the world will ever see?
They need to either fix the encounters they have so they can attract more hardcores back to the game, or make easier versions of them like WoW did to attract casuals.......not doing either is total suicide.
Originally posted by intrinsc I see a lot of W* fanboys arguing that Voodoo didn't leave because of 40man. Yet, they blame buggy raids as the main cause(you'd be naive to think that's the only reason). They quit because of buggy 40mans. In short, Carbine bit off more than they could chew by implementing 40man raids with such a small game compared to the other juggernaut of the MMO world. So, they say they quit because of bugs in 40man, yet claim it wasn't because of 40man. They are both directly related so they did quit because of 40man. Guaranteed that if 40man wasn't a thing Carbine would be able to focus test 20mans more and with more people and they would still be raiding. I hate to see what Carbine will do when they realize no one is doing their 40mans in the future and resources are going to waste for essentially a flight of fancy.
You're mixing two topics; Voodoo quit because of the buggy encounters. That very well may imply encounters in a 40-man but it wasn't stated... End of story.
However, you're absolutely right about the content build for such a small audience though. With the difficulty amped up, and the number of focused players needed to successfully progress, it's odd to think that Carbine would dump so many resources into just the 40-man progression. In fact, it's incredibly reckless and leaves one to wonder how/why NCSoft OK'd it, considering their track record. You could speculate that we've not seen the full picture yet.
Originally posted by intrinsc I see a lot of W* fanboys arguing that Voodoo didn't leave because of 40man. Yet, they blame buggy raids as the main cause(you'd be naive to think that's the only reason). They quit because of buggy 40mans. In short, Carbine bit off more than they could chew by implementing 40man raids with such a small game compared to the other juggernaut of the MMO world. So, they say they quit because of bugs in 40man, yet claim it wasn't because of 40man. They are both directly related so they did quit because of 40man. Guaranteed that if 40man wasn't a thing Carbine would be able to focus test 20mans more and with more people and they would still be raiding. I hate to see what Carbine will do when they realize no one is doing their 40mans in the future and resources are going to waste for essentially a flight of fancy.
You're mixing two topics; Voodoo quit because of the buggy encounters. That very well may imply encounters in a 40-man but it wasn't stated... End of story.
However, you're absolutely right about the content build for such a small audience though. With the difficulty amped up, and the number of focused players needed to successfully progress, it's odd to think that Carbine would dump so many resources into just the 40-man progression. In fact, it's incredibly reckless and leaves one to wonder how/why NCSoft OK'd it, considering their track record. You could speculate that we've not seen the full picture yet.
Carbine might be in a catch 22 at this point. They need to put resources into fixing the existing 40 man raids in order to get hardcores back into the game, yet why would they spend resources on fixing something only 2 guilds in the world are even doing?
#2 out of what? 5? There are only a few 40 man progression guilds.
Hardly anybody cares about Wildstar raiding. If anything its funny that people actually take its progression seriously which Voodoo probably figured out.
Alright, so I've been a core raiding member of Voodoo for several years now, so I figure I would at least attempt to chime in and clear a lot of this up.
We starting getting hyped for WS well in advance of release; the draw of incredibly difficult encounters that require more than the standard "tab target this, or stand behind this pillar during this phase there" cookie cutter raiding really appealed to a lot of us, so we decided to get the gang back together. The devs were also nice enough to bring us on for some closed testing of some of the raids!
Compared to some of the other higher up raiding guilds that quit, we had very little attendance and recruiting problems. We're a pretty close knit group of people who not only like to raid, but genuinely enjoy being in each others' company. I think when people were making the "if the game is so fun why are they quitting" or "when did the game stop being fun" argument, they're only seeing one side of the story. Genetic Archives was a great and challenging raid, and it was very well polished with only some minorish (non progression breaking) hiccups that were easy enough to work around.
THE RAIDS
The 40 man conundrum begins with the fact that as soon as you start pulling bosses in DS, it becomes pretty apparent that the content wasn't tested nearly as extensively as the GA raid as a whole was. The frustration with unkillable bosses and bugs is one thing that we had all dealt with before in previous games as progression minded raiders, but I'd be lying if I didn't say it felt like a literal slap in the face or three when the developers would patch bosses to make our legitimate strategies impossible (which was a direct result of devs sitting in on live progression), that resulted in having to relearn the fights and make massive adjustments (which I think was also brought up earlier). Currently there is still at least an entire wing that is so buggy you can't make progress in it past killing one mini boss really (unkillable adds under the playfield that make rez points unusable, among other things). Also add in the fact that they literally tripled the amount of patterns needed to get into Datascape right after people started killing Ohmna, only to revert it after a couple of groups started killing things in Datascape. If that doesn't scream "We aren't ready for you to see what's next", I don't know what does.
THE CLASS MECHANICS
Another troubling thing that's plagued Wildstar is the massive amount of issues with how the classes function on a fundamental scale. Most of the classes are still riddled with bugs, and other guilds are even taking advantages of known exploits to help them push progression (see doule/triple Spellslinger charged shots and the recent ban wave of Medics abusing the ability to cast several abilities at once). Oh, and apparently there was also that bug where you could use a trinket like 8 times before i registered that it was on cooldown as well, although I suspect something like that would have a much greater effect on PVP.
Medics - it was at least a good month before Medics got a rebalance that made them something other that a liability to bring to raids in a DPS role. As I said above, there are still some issues and bugs to work out, but the exploits aren't really something on the radar of anyone wanting serious and honest progression. I know from personal experience in GA that in the beginning we were pretty much drawing straws on who got to raid on any given day, since we have historically tried to keep a balanced roster in every game we raid in. I ended up getting so tired of that game that I took to healing for most of the 20 man.
Spellslingers - See exploit mentioned above, and from what I understand were a number of rubber band buffs and nerfs.
Stalkers - similar situation, although some of their adjustments were made in more of a PvP centric mentality that carried over to PvE raiding as well.
Espers - I think it was about the same time Medics got their rework that Espers finally got stripped of what can only be called Immobile Turret Syndrome. The original state of the stationary Esper made things frustrating for a lot of people; not because it made things too hard, but because literally everyone in else in the game could do what they were doing WHILE being able to be completely mobile. This change definitely took entirely too long to implement.
Engineers - Boltcaster, the top single target dps related build suffered from related skills resetting out of nowhere (Bioshell I believe it was), that made playing it feel like you were always walking on eggshells.
THE RAIDING COMMUNITY (or lack thereof)
I'm sure a lot of people in predominantly top tier progression raiding guilds would agree with me here. Competing for ranked kills on bosses isn't just about the gear or clearing the content and getting your bit of a break between tiers. One of the things that makes raiding at that level so fun is knowing that there are any other number of guilds out there that could overtake you on one of your bad days (it's especially interesting when some previously unknown guild comes out of nowhere and starts going HAM on content). This just wasn't the case in Wildstar, and it may or may not be because of the lengthy attunement process, but I can't say for sure since none of us figured it would be that big of a deal for any of us. It was similar to how we felt about the state of raiding in Rift when we left that game as well. There just wasn't that danger of constant new waves of competition catching up and/or going harder than us to try and push for the top spots.
CONCLUSION
Hopefully NOW it's a little clearer on why the guild left progression raiding in Wildstar. I by any means am not trying to speak for the group as a whole, but I think everything I laid out above is pretty unbiased, and we all still really want Wildstar to be the amazing and stable game we were hoping for when we first heard about it, whether we decide to go back to it some day or not. Nobody is holding a grudge against Crabine or anyone in the raiding community, so please try to understand that starting some sort of possible drama was never the intention of anyone of us.
TL;DR - there are plenty of problems with Wildstar like class bugs, unkillable raid bosses, and server DDOS'ing, but that's all stuff that is easily enough able to be worked around and adjusted for in the long run. The direct patches meant to make guilds relearn fights and the fact that there is so little competition out there on top of the Wildstar ladder definitely saps the desire to deal with all of those other issues -- taxing to the point where you would rather move on to another game that may not be as fundamentally fresh or even as enjoyable, but having polished content to look forward to is just an amazing thing sometimes.
Espers - I think it was about the same time Medics got their rework that Espers finally got stripped of what can only be called Immobile Turret Syndrome. The original state of the stationary Esper made things frustrating for a lot of people; not because it made things too hard, but because literally everyone in else in the game could do what they were doing WHILE being able to be completely mobile. This change definitely took entirely too long to implement.
I played Esper in beta and posted here that I didn't like the WS combat much - that it reminded me too much of Tera's stop and go movement and I never really got into this.
The fanboys told me that WS combat was extremely mobile and that I just don't know what I'm talking about.
For every person saying this game is dead there are plenty of others playing and enjoying it. I personally love this game, the story, art style. It's just plain fun to me. To each his own I guess
Espers - I think it was about the same time Medics got their rework that Espers finally got stripped of what can only be called Immobile Turret Syndrome. The original state of the stationary Esper made things frustrating for a lot of people; not because it made things too hard, but because literally everyone in else in the game could do what they were doing WHILE being able to be completely mobile. This change definitely took entirely too long to implement.
I played Esper in beta and posted here that I didn't like the WS combat much - that it reminded me too much of Tera's stop and go movement and I never really got into this.
The fanboys told me that WS combat was extremely mobile and that I just don't know what I'm talking about.
Guess that's that then.
You are dumb if you think it takes a fanboy to tell you that and for comparing TERAs animation locking to Wildstar which has pretty much no animation lock.
Comments
QFT
Top progression guilds don't just "rage quit".... none of actual progression guilds "rage quite." Voodoo's action of quiting is just proof that Carbine's philosophy is severely flawed when it comes to content. Many have already pointed out writing on the wall since beta, this is just proof that the "haters" actually were pretty much on target at least in the context of this thread.
Even if they were guild #8 or #10, it doesn't matter their ranking as very few guilds reach these levels. Carbine trumps about how "hardcore" raiding is the new it and yet those who severely tested stuff, were in credits, contributed significantly to testing are quiting shortly after launch. These guilds stay with a game and aren't fickle to say the least.
Most end game guilds dont raid 6-7 days a week most the time. End game guilds only do that for about a month or even less depending on how long/hard the content is they are trying to become 1st for. most might raid 2-3 days out the week at most.
You raise a very good point. Since Voodoo is out of the progression picture now, that leaves 2 guild actually downing stuff in it....one guild is only 3/9 (same as Voodoo, and for the same reason, broken encounters), and the other is 2/9 (due to a mixture of the same issue + attendance issues). Blizz said for years that it was almost stupid to design art/story/encounters that only a small % of players would ever see, which is why they smartly implemented easier versions (all the while making the hard versions get harder and harder over the years). That "small %" in wow was still about 100 guilds........how many resources do you think Carbine is gonna put towards creating another 40 man tier that only 2 guilds in the world will ever see?
They need to either fix the encounters they have so they can attract more hardcores back to the game, or make easier versions of them like WoW did to attract casuals.......not doing either is total suicide.
You're mixing two topics; Voodoo quit because of the buggy encounters. That very well may imply encounters in a 40-man but it wasn't stated... End of story.
However, you're absolutely right about the content build for such a small audience though. With the difficulty amped up, and the number of focused players needed to successfully progress, it's odd to think that Carbine would dump so many resources into just the 40-man progression. In fact, it's incredibly reckless and leaves one to wonder how/why NCSoft OK'd it, considering their track record. You could speculate that we've not seen the full picture yet.
Carbine might be in a catch 22 at this point. They need to put resources into fixing the existing 40 man raids in order to get hardcores back into the game, yet why would they spend resources on fixing something only 2 guilds in the world are even doing?
#2 out of what? 5? There are only a few 40 man progression guilds.
Hardly anybody cares about Wildstar raiding. If anything its funny that people actually take its progression seriously which Voodoo probably figured out.
Alright, so I've been a core raiding member of Voodoo for several years now, so I figure I would at least attempt to chime in and clear a lot of this up.
We starting getting hyped for WS well in advance of release; the draw of incredibly difficult encounters that require more than the standard "tab target this, or stand behind this pillar during this phase there" cookie cutter raiding really appealed to a lot of us, so we decided to get the gang back together. The devs were also nice enough to bring us on for some closed testing of some of the raids!
Compared to some of the other higher up raiding guilds that quit, we had very little attendance and recruiting problems. We're a pretty close knit group of people who not only like to raid, but genuinely enjoy being in each others' company. I think when people were making the "if the game is so fun why are they quitting" or "when did the game stop being fun" argument, they're only seeing one side of the story. Genetic Archives was a great and challenging raid, and it was very well polished with only some minorish (non progression breaking) hiccups that were easy enough to work around.
THE RAIDS
The 40 man conundrum begins with the fact that as soon as you start pulling bosses in DS, it becomes pretty apparent that the content wasn't tested nearly as extensively as the GA raid as a whole was. The frustration with unkillable bosses and bugs is one thing that we had all dealt with before in previous games as progression minded raiders, but I'd be lying if I didn't say it felt like a literal slap in the face or three when the developers would patch bosses to make our legitimate strategies impossible (which was a direct result of devs sitting in on live progression), that resulted in having to relearn the fights and make massive adjustments (which I think was also brought up earlier). Currently there is still at least an entire wing that is so buggy you can't make progress in it past killing one mini boss really (unkillable adds under the playfield that make rez points unusable, among other things). Also add in the fact that they literally tripled the amount of patterns needed to get into Datascape right after people started killing Ohmna, only to revert it after a couple of groups started killing things in Datascape. If that doesn't scream "We aren't ready for you to see what's next", I don't know what does.
THE CLASS MECHANICS
Another troubling thing that's plagued Wildstar is the massive amount of issues with how the classes function on a fundamental scale. Most of the classes are still riddled with bugs, and other guilds are even taking advantages of known exploits to help them push progression (see doule/triple Spellslinger charged shots and the recent ban wave of Medics abusing the ability to cast several abilities at once). Oh, and apparently there was also that bug where you could use a trinket like 8 times before i registered that it was on cooldown as well, although I suspect something like that would have a much greater effect on PVP.
Medics - it was at least a good month before Medics got a rebalance that made them something other that a liability to bring to raids in a DPS role. As I said above, there are still some issues and bugs to work out, but the exploits aren't really something on the radar of anyone wanting serious and honest progression. I know from personal experience in GA that in the beginning we were pretty much drawing straws on who got to raid on any given day, since we have historically tried to keep a balanced roster in every game we raid in. I ended up getting so tired of that game that I took to healing for most of the 20 man.
Spellslingers - See exploit mentioned above, and from what I understand were a number of rubber band buffs and nerfs.
Stalkers - similar situation, although some of their adjustments were made in more of a PvP centric mentality that carried over to PvE raiding as well.
Espers - I think it was about the same time Medics got their rework that Espers finally got stripped of what can only be called Immobile Turret Syndrome. The original state of the stationary Esper made things frustrating for a lot of people; not because it made things too hard, but because literally everyone in else in the game could do what they were doing WHILE being able to be completely mobile. This change definitely took entirely too long to implement.
Engineers - Boltcaster, the top single target dps related build suffered from related skills resetting out of nowhere (Bioshell I believe it was), that made playing it feel like you were always walking on eggshells.
THE RAIDING COMMUNITY (or lack thereof)
I'm sure a lot of people in predominantly top tier progression raiding guilds would agree with me here. Competing for ranked kills on bosses isn't just about the gear or clearing the content and getting your bit of a break between tiers. One of the things that makes raiding at that level so fun is knowing that there are any other number of guilds out there that could overtake you on one of your bad days (it's especially interesting when some previously unknown guild comes out of nowhere and starts going HAM on content). This just wasn't the case in Wildstar, and it may or may not be because of the lengthy attunement process, but I can't say for sure since none of us figured it would be that big of a deal for any of us. It was similar to how we felt about the state of raiding in Rift when we left that game as well. There just wasn't that danger of constant new waves of competition catching up and/or going harder than us to try and push for the top spots.
CONCLUSION
Hopefully NOW it's a little clearer on why the guild left progression raiding in Wildstar. I by any means am not trying to speak for the group as a whole, but I think everything I laid out above is pretty unbiased, and we all still really want Wildstar to be the amazing and stable game we were hoping for when we first heard about it, whether we decide to go back to it some day or not. Nobody is holding a grudge against Crabine or anyone in the raiding community, so please try to understand that starting some sort of possible drama was never the intention of anyone of us.
TL;DR - there are plenty of problems with Wildstar like class bugs, unkillable raid bosses, and server DDOS'ing, but that's all stuff that is easily enough able to be worked around and adjusted for in the long run. The direct patches meant to make guilds relearn fights and the fact that there is so little competition out there on top of the Wildstar ladder definitely saps the desire to deal with all of those other issues -- taxing to the point where you would rather move on to another game that may not be as fundamentally fresh or even as enjoyable, but having polished content to look forward to is just an amazing thing sometimes.
I played Esper in beta and posted here that I didn't like the WS combat much - that it reminded me too much of Tera's stop and go movement and I never really got into this.
The fanboys told me that WS combat was extremely mobile and that I just don't know what I'm talking about.
Guess that's that then.
You are dumb if you think it takes a fanboy to tell you that and for comparing TERAs animation locking to Wildstar which has pretty much no animation lock.