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"And then what?" - A question many sandobxes fall short to answer.
Quirhid
Member UncommonPosts: 6,230
Yeah you might be able to clear a spot in the woods, build a house with the wood you've collected, plant a crop, hunt, gather and craft, and then what? What happens next? Do you continue grinding materials for a bigger house, keep yourself fed etc. What do you do when you don't have to struggle anymore? Is that the endgame?
Thoughts?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Comments
You do what people do in real Massively Multiplayer online role playing games
You help your guild, you become the best at something, you gain reputation to get server famous
You can do everything you mentioned above in Skyrim if you don't want to play with other people around.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
I disagree.. I think a sandbox PvE game is very feasible and fun.. HOWEVER, you need devs that can think outside the box, and producers willing to pony up the cash to create and support the game.. PvP is often used because it's the cheapest form of content to support.. Designing and running NPC's takes more effort = $$$$$.. In a sandbox type of PvE game, the devs have to focus on creating a world that encourages the community to work together.. Honestly I haven't seen anything like that in forever.. Every game I have played since the turn of the century has somehow focused on putting player against player.. Either directly as esport PvP, or indirectly like "rankings & gear" to prove you are better then your neighbor.. (Gear Score?) lol
But then will a community support such a game that doesn't promote epeens?
As Rhoklaw mentioned, PvP and territorial control may be one aspect. But I don't think there's anything preventing a sandbox game from having 'content' as well. So:
- Essentially having never ending character development. I don't understand or like level caps, and I never have. To me this all comes down to appeasing the pussy little whiners who complain about hardcore players, and who want a chance to be 'equal'. Well, there are other alternatives too. Myself, I've always found running and outright avoidance to be good bets for dealing with characters who are more powerful than I am. But everyone these days demands to be a god within a week - when it used to take years in MMORPGs. Yet that was a good part of the fun and challenge of these games. At least for me.
- I think it's a myth that all gear needs to be crafted in sandbox games, or that all good gear needs to be gotten by raiding in Theme Parks. A mix can work even better. As it did for example in Asheron's Call 1. So maybe you wanted Sword Mastery gauntlets? Well a certain type of mob was known to drop them - go find'em and grind'em. Or maybe you wanted the best Magic Resistance necklace in the game? That could found in a group quest and dungeon. And afterwards, maybe a crafter could 'tinker' them up to be even better for you. Then there were also essentially long involved class quests for powerful weapons, journeys to volcanoes where fire resist items might be found, dungeons where experience could be earned more quickly than all other places (and rather than buying your experience in a cash shop, how frigging cheesy has that now become), etc..
- To me, sandbox means always having options. Whereas Theme Parks are about being taken for a ride. And there have been tons of neat little features in past sandbox games which get completely ignored by MMORPGs today. How about building player made cities, tools for handling guild politics and elections, the cantinas music and dancing SWG had for the more socially minded players, random shifting of resource locations and their qualities (vs. the rote nodes of WoW and its clones), tools for weddings/other parties/or combat tournaments, randomly shifting portals to special zones to keep the explorers happy, blah blah blah.
Anyway, if you're not seeing what there potentially could be to "do" in a sandbox game, I'm not sure I've accomplished anything more than to waste my breath here. Because at heart OP, I think you're probably more interested in seeing a movie than in playing a game. And that's okay, you're certainly not alone. And I like movies too. But these are polar opposite kinds of entertainment - I.E. passive vs. active.
Gaining experience (not just numbers), skill/ability progression, treasure hunting, monster hunting, raiding, dungeons, rare hunting, exploring (the world should be massive, with places you can only access by mountain/wall climbing etc), politics, professions (separate from classes and/or crafting), discovery (not just in exploration but in crafting, magic (mages should have legendary spells available that takes a year to learn) combat, etc), and as many features as possible as long as they are well made, the possibilities are endless.
It's no just just building a house and chopping down wood, but I guess these indie studios dont really have resources to do something great, and making a great sandbox requires resources, until then we chop down wood and build houses?
Then you can either start grinding for that golden toilet paper holder to your WC, or decide that the game's completed and move on to next game.
Imho one of the problem with sandbox MMOs is that they try too much to avoid the game ending. The game should be allowed to end at some point.
As much as I am questioning what is there to do, I am also questioning why to do it?
And you shouldn't make that assumption about me that I would much rather watch a movie than play a game. I've been a gamer all my life. I love games. Sports, video games, board games, pen & paper RPGs... all of them. But most of them have a point, an objective, or a competitive aspect. Something many sandboxes lack altogether. They are more like playacting than games in this regard.
I get that some people enjoy play acting and make-believe more than others. Some are fine with just that. But if its all there is in a sandbox "game" it does seem quite shallow to a gamer like myself. And adding more stuff to build and craft doesn't make that go away.
For me, a big part of why I love games is the challenge; and in sandboxes, after the initial struggle I get bored very fast.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
That's what I do: I "master the game" and I move on. But on these forums, I've been accused of being a game hopper. Like its a bad thing. I wonder why.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Sandboxes require more use of your imagination than themeparks. If you go into a sandbox with the goal to 'beat' the game, you will never find it fun.
I play wurm online, which has all of the activities that the OP described. At some point, you will be established enough that you have no practical need to do anything else to ensure your survival. This is the part where imagination comes to play.
The biggest island in Wurm is 1024 sqkm large. When this island was created, it had nothing on it besides wilderness. By now, most players have created their own homes, but a working road network has not been established yet. This means you have to travel across rough terrain and it can take up to 4 hours to reach from one side of the map to the other. With a proper road network this time could be reduced to 1 hour. I think you can see where I'm going with this. Building the infrastructure of the server is a much bigger task than getting your own village set up. It is also a more social and fun task because it requires players to cooperate on a massive scale.
I personally focused on helping other new players in wurm, because that is what I find fun. From the start, I named my deed 'Mining Guild' and the goal of the deed is to provide public access to all 8 uncommon ore veins that people will otherwise have a very hard time finding: gold, silver, marble, slate, lead, copper, tin, zinc. The majority of these veins on the server are covered by a deed (they can't be mined), so having a public location for all of them opens up a lot more possibilities for people who want to make their homes look unique etc.
The other "endgame" activity I do in wurm is designing deeds. What I basically do is make a concept of a deed that would look cool and that other people would want to pay money for. For this to work, the deed needs to have unique looking buildings and overall it has to look visually apart. This is a very interesting challenge to overcome for me. It also helps that the game has a very freeform building system where you can make buildings in any shape you want. The most I've made from selling a deed is 40 silver, which is equivalent to 40 euros real life money.
Another thing you can do in "sandbox endgame" is focusing on a trade. For example in wurm, you could identify a market that doesn't have much competition (horse equipment for example) and then focus on that by making and selling horseshoes and saddles, and you can become known on the server as the guy who deals with horse equipment. You can also take it a step further and start breeding horses with speed traits. A single horse with maxed out speed traits can sell for around 2 silver (2 euro). But getting to maxed out speed traits takes months of breeding and many generations of horses.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Mastering a game doesn't mean you rule over the other players. It means you've seen most there is to be seen, achieved most there is to be achieved and you know all the ins and outs of it.
MMORPGs can definitely be "beaten" or "mastered" just like any other game.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
All I am hearing in this thread seems to be excuses for why sandboxes don't have any substantial content. Too much imagine this, imagine that. Fluffy, what I would call meaningless things such as build your server reputation. But how is that even considered content? A lot of the things people are saying seem to be just stuff to grind just to make up for the lack of meaningful content.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
And what is the content in games like GW2 and TESO? In themeparks, you spend roughly 100 hours on average to experience all the content in the game, and then you fall into the same hole essentially. You grind the same dungeons, raids, pvp maps day in, day out. At that point, themeparks don't differentiate much from sandboxes anymore. In both you have the learning period (or questing period, if you like), followed by repeating the same thing over and over until you get bored and quit. I just feel that sandboxes give players more options of things to do when they have experienced all the content *points to selfpost above*. Can you start a mining guild in TESO like you can in wurm? I highly doubt it. Not bashing the game in any way, just pointing it out.
Then your not an mmo player, why try and play them ?.......Well, Since mmos are just Carrot-on-a-stick, action SOLO games anymore, I guess you can stay
You play through the content, enjoy some PvP perhaps, and then you're done (if you don't want to play through it again). They don't pretend that the game lasts forever.
100 hours from any game is a lot. For the box price, you're getting good value if you like the game.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I think that's the problem with most MMO players. They expect the game to last them a lifetime. This is simply not possible. Every game has finite content. THe only way to stretch this finite content is by introducing incredible time sinks, e.g. old MMOs lke EQ. But if you go for a sane level of grind then most people will be done in 100 hours and will move on. Certain genres though lend themselves better to longer play time lives. Dota and LoL for example can last you a long time if you ar einto competitive gaming.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
In most cases, the 100 hours of content is vastly subpar compared to a 10 hour single player game. What is the 100 hours of content in a themepark, for example GW2? They make a weak attempt at telling a story to the player. But what is the player doing during those 100 hours of gameplay? They are essentially grinding 3 types of repetitive content which artificially increases the length of the story.
1. Kill x amount of y
2. collect x amount of y
3. interact with x y amount of times
In GW2 you rarely deal with the story missions during those 100 hours. Most of the time you run chores for random people to reach the required level for the next story portion.
Haha, I don't see the point of open world PvP ganking and I am certainly not afraid of competition. I actually love to play to win. I hate losing. Are you telling me people like you who enjoy ganking and unfair gameplay are no lifers in real life cause they want to camp people all day? The fact that these pro open world gank fest happy players don't want to play on equal terms shows you that are actually afraid of a fair fight and they certainly are NOT competitive.
Competition can only exist when it is on equal grounds. Look at successful competitive games like Dota and Starcraft. Those games are fun and I have spent lots of time playing them. Ganking people in MMOs and playing for 10 hours a days just makes you a no lifer
When playing football or any other sport, there has to be fair play. E.g. in football you can't have one team start with 20 players whereas the other team is left with like 8.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
This is a post from someone who makes the false assumption that I am a "PvE player".
I love competition. Maybe you should re-think your hypothesis.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
So you've trivialized GW2, what is your point?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
"A lot of the things people are saying seem to be just stuff to grind just to make up for the lack of meaningful content."
My point is, this statement applies both ways.
Then what is the point of mastering a game if you don't plan on using that acheived mastery? It's like going to university for 4 years to learn architecture, and then cleaning toilets for the rest of your life. Complete waste of time.
I did play GW1 at a world championship level, yes, if that is what you call "limited competition". I've also played Eve for 3 years nearly all that time in null-sec. As an FC too. I've been part of and played with such alliances and power blocks as Atlas, Black legion, N3...
But how is a gank or a zerg more of a competition than a fair fight in the arena?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Games are already a waste of time, aren't they? Only thing that matters is that whether you're having fun or not.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I suppose we find the opposite things fun then. I absolutely hate the progression to max level because I feel like a complete noob. On the other hand, I enjoy being at endgame, knowing all aspects of the game, and being able to be a "badass" basically and put my knowledge to practice.
I spent nearly 5 years at runescape endgame. In that time i made nearly 5 billion gold. Many people looked up to me and came to me for help. I made pvp videos on youtube, I wrote guides for fansites, and it was a great time overall IMO, looking back at it now.
TSW has kept me playing at endgame for 2 years. I'm one of the very few people in the game who has been able to do 10k single target dps. Most people max out at around 3k-5k. I also do pvp where some of my best matches have been 120 kills:9 deaths, or 93 kills:3 deaths etc.
Being able to do stuff like that is what I find fun, not the process of grinding PvE to reach the cap.