Until MMORPGs become about society rather than the individual, there will never be a living breathing world. Players must be ready to sacrifice any notion of personal gain in order to totally invest themselves in the cause of the collective, to the extent that the labors of the society must be divided between them, and they will really watch their effort pay off in how the collective society flourishes. And during the maintenance of your society you must also be ready to defend it, from brigands, from other player-controlled societies who desire the resources your land has, etc. You are a citizen of a living society in a living world. Your fate as an individual is forever bound up with the society's fate as a whole.
This thread isn't about making a living breathing world. Please stay on topic.
Any sandbox in the context of an MMORPG or, really, for that matter, any MMORPG that does not attempt to be a living breathing world is a failure.
Yeah you might be able to clear a spot in the woods, build a house with the wood you've collected, plant a crop, hunt, gather and craft, and then what? What happens next? Do you continue grinding materials for a bigger house, keep yourself fed etc. What do you do when you don't have to struggle anymore? Is that the endgame?
Thoughts?
It depends on the game. In ATITD, you can get into lawmaking, leading the big projects, or even try for Pharoah. In UO, there's also multiple paths such as running a venue (mall, tavern, battle arena, etc), getting into the ongoing plot, dare I suggest joining the roleplaying guilds.
The players that stick around in sandbox-style games aren't always focused on the progression mechanics, they are often focused on the gameplay mechanics. The crucial difference there is the former leaves when progression ends, and the latter settles into the mechanics that best fits their interest or play style. For example, a player may find mining and making weapons fun, eventually setting up a shop/business where they sell weapons to players or even entire guilds. Building a name for themselves in that field or even simply the act of running their own shop may be what the player is looking for, and they may do that for years on end, never experiencing the majority of the game's content, not because they can't but because they don't want to.
For many long-term MMO players in the sandbox-focused MMOs, the fun they are experiencing has little to do with goals set by the game and almost nothing to do with reaching caps, let alone being able to do everything.
EDIT: You're not one for trolling and baiting, so I have to assume this was a genuine question, although I am very surprised sandbox design (the reasons for it and how players use it) is this alien to you.
Look at the answers he's getting though. Far too many are focused on maxing things and or becoming the best at something.
Sandbox has become one of those things people ask for because they can and never stop to think if it's something they should. So he probably was baiting people into demonstrating that, but I wouldn't consider that trolling. I would guess that most of the people who wave their sandbox pom-poms in every new launch would probably be bored and quit in worm online within days.
This is a post from someone who makes the false assumption that I am a "PvE player". I love competition. Maybe you should re-think your hypothesis.
Shall I? You love the limited competition of battle grounds of Wow and arenas of GW1, you are just afraid from the open world, where you have to play with other players all the time. So I think I'm clearly right.
I did play GW1 at a world championship level, yes, if that is what you call "limited competition". I've also played Eve for 3 years nearly all that time in null-sec. As an FC too. I've been part of and played with such alliances and power blocks as Atlas, Black legion, N3...
But how is a gank or a zerg more of a competition than a fair fight in the arena?
And here is the problem, you don/t like open world pvp, and see open world pvp as the main point of sandboxes, the thing is they aren't.
Cooperation it seems means nothing to players like you who always claim that you want it when you really don't. Now one thing I will say in your favor is that the problem is of many sandboxes is that the pvp seems to be over emphasized. Developers of sandboxes need to stress the other aspects of the game. SWG does this perfectly, ArcheAge also does a decent job. Just stand near any road and you will see people going by on donkeys, tractors and other vehicles. The differences of a sandbox is that the world lives, its not just about ganking people, its about being part of the world. A solo minded themepark player will never get this. Just because you think the world should be mastered and left says enough.
As I've told people you have to approach sandbox games with a Real Time Strategy mindset otherwise you won't like the game. You have to think about more than yourself. Coming into the game just to -win- and -win- for -me- and me alone is why the genre has taken a severe downturn.,
You want to play games, we want to play world simulators. Those who have seen the anime series Log Horizon can understand why sandboxes are more appealing in the long run than some simple minded me for me level grinder meet it and beat it themepark like SAO.
I ask you again you are basically saying you want skyrim with mods, why even pay an mmo then?
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
Until MMORPGs become about society rather than the individual, there will never be a living breathing world. Players must be ready to sacrifice any notion of personal gain in order to totally invest themselves in the cause of the collective, to the extent that the labors of the society must be divided between them, and they will really watch their effort pay off in how the collective society flourishes. And during the maintenance of your society you must also be ready to defend it, from brigands, from other player-controlled societies who desire the resources your land has, etc. You are a citizen of a living society in a living world. Your fate as an individual is forever bound up with the society's fate as a whole.
This thread isn't about making a living breathing world. Please stay on topic.
It is exactly about making a living breathing world, if you can't understand why you don't understand the topic. The OP asked "Then what" when it comes to sandboxes
the "Then What" is becoming part of the world and influencing it as a whole. Not just for yourself.
That adds to the concept of "Living Breathing World"
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
Until MMORPGs become about society rather than the individual, there will never be a living breathing world. Players must be ready to sacrifice any notion of personal gain in order to totally invest themselves in the cause of the collective, to the extent that the labors of the society must be divided between them, and they will really watch their effort pay off in how the collective society flourishes. And during the maintenance of your society you must also be ready to defend it, from brigands, from other player-controlled societies who desire the resources your land has, etc. You are a citizen of a living society in a living world. Your fate as an individual is forever bound up with the society's fate as a whole.
This thread isn't about making a living breathing world. Please stay on topic.
It is exactly about making a living breathing world, if you can't understand why you don't understand the topic. The OP asked "Then what" when it comes to sandboxes
the "Then What" is becoming part of the world and influencing it as a whole. Not just for yourself.
That adds to the concept of "Living Breathing World"
Fine. Derail away...
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Until MMORPGs become about society rather than the individual, there will never be a living breathing world. Players must be ready to sacrifice any notion of personal gain in order to totally invest themselves in the cause of the collective, to the extent that the labors of the society must be divided between them, and they will really watch their effort pay off in how the collective society flourishes. And during the maintenance of your society you must also be ready to defend it, from brigands, from other player-controlled societies who desire the resources your land has, etc. You are a citizen of a living society in a living world. Your fate as an individual is forever bound up with the society's fate as a whole.
Amen, unfortunately most themeparkers who have never experienced a sandbox (and usually tend to be quite anti social in real life cannot see the forest for the trees)
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
Until MMORPGs become about society rather than the individual, there will never be a living breathing world. Players must be ready to sacrifice any notion of personal gain in order to totally invest themselves in the cause of the collective, to the extent that the labors of the society must be divided between them, and they will really watch their effort pay off in how the collective society flourishes. And during the maintenance of your society you must also be ready to defend it, from brigands, from other player-controlled societies who desire the resources your land has, etc. You are a citizen of a living society in a living world. Your fate as an individual is forever bound up with the society's fate as a whole.
This thread isn't about making a living breathing world. Please stay on topic.
It is exactly about making a living breathing world, if you can't understand why you don't understand the topic. The OP asked "Then what" when it comes to sandboxes
the "Then What" is becoming part of the world and influencing it as a whole. Not just for yourself.
That adds to the concept of "Living Breathing World"
Fine. Derail away...
Sorry you don't understand *shrugs*
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
Lets for arguments sake say that WoW had no level caps... basically it's endless... you can keep grinding the same dailies, the same mobs, et al forever. At what point do you say to yourself... this is pointless?
Ultimately there needs to be an activity that is fun to do, not merely a task to do. Otherwise having limitless levels or no levels at all becomes pointless. The reality is, there is a point to levels... it gives someone something to strive towards. If everything is limitless you get to the point where you get tired of going no where endlessly.
Yeah you might be able to clear a spot in the woods, build a house with the wood you've collected, plant a crop, hunt, gather and craft, and then what? What happens next? Do you continue grinding materials for a bigger house, keep yourself fed etc. What do you do when you don't have to struggle anymore? Is that the endgame?
Thoughts?
It depends on the game. In ATITD, you can get into lawmaking, leading the big projects, or even try for Pharoah. In UO, there's also multiple paths such as running a venue (mall, tavern, battle arena, etc), getting into the ongoing plot, dare I suggest joining the roleplaying guilds.
The players that stick around in sandbox-style games aren't always focused on the progression mechanics, they are often focused on the gameplay mechanics. The crucial difference there is the former leaves when progression ends, and the latter settles into the mechanics that best fits their interest or play style. For example, a player may find mining and making weapons fun, eventually setting up a shop/business where they sell weapons to players or even entire guilds. Building a name for themselves in that field or even simply the act of running their own shop may be what the player is looking for, and they may do that for years on end, never experiencing the majority of the game's content, not because they can't but because they don't want to.
For many long-term MMO players in the sandbox-focused MMOs, the fun they are experiencing has little to do with goals set by the game and almost nothing to do with reaching caps, let alone being able to do everything.
EDIT: You're not one for trolling and baiting, so I have to assume this was a genuine question, although I am very surprised sandbox design (the reasons for it and how players use it) is this alien to you.
Look at the answers he's getting though. Far too many are focused on maxing things and or becoming the best at something.
Sandbox has become one of those things people ask for because they can and never stop to think if it's something they should. So he probably was baiting people into demonstrating that, but I wouldn't consider that trolling. I would guess that most of the people who wave their sandbox pom-poms in every new launch would probably be bored and quit in worm online within days.
I think you've hit the nail on the head. Sandbox works for a lot of people in theory. In reality, a satisfactory sandbox game is near impossible to deliver to them as they have a laundry list of a dozen or so very specific features. Of those features, if a single one is absent or not designed to their rigid criteria then that feature becomes the 'deal breaker' preventing them from enjoying the game.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Then you can either start grinding for that golden toilet paper holder to your WC, or decide that the game's completed and move on to next game.
Imho one of the problem with sandbox MMOs is that they try too much to avoid the game ending. The game should be allowed to end at some point.
The only problem with sandboxes is when short sighted themepark gamers play them and don't understand how to set goals like accomplishing something of social benefit in the game, not just benefit for themselves.
Its a sad day really because it points to society as a whole. I can only wonder what the world will be like in the hands of such antisocial people.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
Lets for arguments sake say that WoW had no level caps... basically it's endless... you can keep grinding the same dailies, the same mobs, et al forever. At what point do you say to yourself... this is pointless?
Ultimately there needs to be an activity that is fun to do, not merely a task to do. Otherwise having limitless levels or no levels at all becomes pointless. The reality is, there is a point to levels... it gives someone something to strive towards. If everything is limitless you get to the point where you get tired of going no where endlessly.
Another person who has obviously never played a game like Civilization, Age of Empires or others, nor has seen series like Log Horizon
The ultimate point of a sandbox is to not only do what you want, but also help others, its the most cooperative form of true mmo there is. You gain rep by being the best at something on the server. You then turn your attention to helping others through what you can do. Its that simple. In a sandbox its about kingdom building along with me building.
Bruce Lee did not simply "stop" when he mastered Kung Fu, he turned his attention to others and started to teach.
A history lesson for those that don't get sandboxes. MMORPGS started off the back of pen and paper rpgs. People who started the genre and played in its early days wanted virtual worlds. Places where they can actually have influence. When developers saw the more solo friendly wow which brought in more casual players much of the focus changed.
If you don't get them hey that's absolutely fine. You don't have to force yourself to like anything. There are more than enough themeparks out there to go "beat"
Me? I'd rather live in a world than play just a series of levels while sitting in a city waiting for a queue to pop.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
Yeah you might be able to clear a spot in the woods, build a house with the wood you've collected, plant a crop, hunt, gather and craft, and then what? What happens next? Do you continue grinding materials for a bigger house, keep yourself fed etc. What do you do when you don't have to struggle anymore? Is that the endgame?
Thoughts?
Congratulation. Now you have finished the tutorial and the sandbox game is beginning.
Start to look up. Look around you. What is happening? What communities have arised? In what way is the world changing? How will you participate? In different communities, in the world overall.
Do you want to leave a trace? Do you want to get influence? Do you want to have a look what other around you do, or have accomplished?
Maybe just run around and wait what will happen next. It can be suprisingly sometimes.
PS:
All that is theoretical, right? Or do you actually talk about a existing sandbox game? Because if it would be specific, you could get actually some specific answers, where to start next. Because you just entered the game basicly.
Congratulation. Now you have finished the tutorial and the sandbox game is beginning.
Start to look up. Look around you. What is happening? What communities have arised? In what way is the world changing? How will you participate? In different communities, in the world overall.
Do you want to leave a trace? Do you want to get influence? Do you want to have a look what other around you do, or have accomplished?
Maybe just run around and wait what will happen next. It can be suprisingly sometimes.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by PepeqLets for arguments sake say that WoW had no level caps... basically it's endless... you can keep grinding the same dailies, the same mobs, et al forever. At what point do you say to yourself... this is pointless?Ultimately there needs to be an activity that is fun to do, not merely a task to do. Otherwise having limitless levels or no levels at all becomes pointless. The reality is, there is a point to levels... it gives someone something to strive towards. If everything is limitless you get to the point where you get tired of going no where endlessly.
Another person who has obviously never played a game like Civilization, Age of Empires or others, nor has seen series like Log HorizonThe ultimate point of a sandbox is to not only do what you want, but also help others, its the most cooperative form of true mmo there is. You gain rep by being the best at something on the server. You then turn your attention to helping others through what you can do. Its that simple. In a sandbox its about kingdom building along with me building. Bruce Lee did not simply "stop" when he mastered Kung Fu, he turned his attention to others and started to teach.A history lesson for those that don't get sandboxes. MMORPGS started off the back of pen and paper rpgs. People who started the genre and played in its early days wanted virtual worlds. Places where they can actually have influence. When developers saw the more solo friendly wow which brought in more casual players much of the focus changed.If you don't get them hey that's absolutely fine. You don't have to force yourself to like anything. There are more than enough themeparks out there to go "beat"Me? I'd rather live in a world than play just a series of levels while sitting in a city waiting for a queue to pop.
Helping others is doing something else... I'm saying when you've done everything endlessly and there is no end in sight, eventually you have to ask yourself what is the point? You point out games, civ and the like. Well are you still playing them 24/7? Honestly... if it is all that, you still would be. But you tire of it eventually because there seems to be no end. So unless you can find something "somewhat new" to do in game... it gets old real fast.
Originally posted by PepeqLets for arguments sake say that WoW had no level caps... basically it's endless... you can keep grinding the same dailies, the same mobs, et al forever. At what point do you say to yourself... this is pointless?Ultimately there needs to be an activity that is fun to do, not merely a task to do. Otherwise having limitless levels or no levels at all becomes pointless. The reality is, there is a point to levels... it gives someone something to strive towards. If everything is limitless you get to the point where you get tired of going no where endlessly.
Another person who has obviously never played a game like Civilization, Age of Empires or others, nor has seen series like Log HorizonThe ultimate point of a sandbox is to not only do what you want, but also help others, its the most cooperative form of true mmo there is. You gain rep by being the best at something on the server. You then turn your attention to helping others through what you can do. Its that simple. In a sandbox its about kingdom building along with me building. Bruce Lee did not simply "stop" when he mastered Kung Fu, he turned his attention to others and started to teach.A history lesson for those that don't get sandboxes. MMORPGS started off the back of pen and paper rpgs. People who started the genre and played in its early days wanted virtual worlds. Places where they can actually have influence. When developers saw the more solo friendly wow which brought in more casual players much of the focus changed.If you don't get them hey that's absolutely fine. You don't have to force yourself to like anything. There are more than enough themeparks out there to go "beat"Me? I'd rather live in a world than play just a series of levels while sitting in a city waiting for a queue to pop.
Helping others is doing something else... I'm saying when you've done everything endlessly and there is no end in sight, eventually you have to ask yourself what is the point? You point out games, civ and the like. Well are you still playing them 24/7? Honestly... if it is all that, you still would be. But you tire of it eventually because there seems to be no end. So unless you can find something "somewhat new" to do in game... it gets old real fast.
And maybe sandboxes are just not for you. Right now I'm playing ArcheAge, and I know there are so many things I want to master to help my community in the long run its sick.
Its really okay not to like something. Myself? This is the first time I've felt at home in an mmo in years because I see the possibilities and I see the social aspects I've been looking for and have finally found.
Also "helping others" is not something else for me, its just as important for me as the rest of the game. Why? Well right now I"m working on weaponsmsaking, so I plan on gearing up my guild for eventual pvp on trade runs. After that I want to master tailoring for cloth armor again to help gear up my guild. Then I want to master carpentry to become a great bowmaker, again to help other people - especially roleplayers. My personal goal is to become one of the best anti gankers on the server. I know this will take time because I want to make sure I have the best gear first. I also want to help my guild increase their chances of survivability.
See thing is all of this is part of the game for me. ArcheAge's meta game for me matters just as much as its normal game. I think of my place in the world in a sandbox and through my skills gain influence. These are not things that the game "tells me to do" but in a sandbox I can see the possibility of doing these things more.
I don't play mmos to just see people and wave at them as I run by while gear grinding.
I play to become "Oh that's that Ranger guy, he makes great blades and armor, you want to talk to him and he should give you a good deal on a nice sword or bow if that's what you're looking for"
To just look at what the game "tells you" what to do is shortsighted and ignoring what you -can- do
In pen and paper rpgs that type of player is the one who basically just plays the game off his sheet. I'm a roleplayer, the guy who this genre was made for in the first place. So in a sandbox like when I play pen and paper games I don't just play off my sheet nor do I just do what the game tells me what I can do mechanically.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
Yeah you might be able to clear a spot in the woods, build a house with the wood you've collected, plant a crop, hunt, gather and craft, and then what? What happens next? Do you continue grinding materials for a bigger house, keep yourself fed etc. What do you do when you don't have to struggle anymore? Is that the endgame?
Thoughts?
My thoughts focus on the 'why". This is where most players fail.
That is why the theme park is so popular because the 'why' is supplied by the developer and the player plays along.
With a sandbox game the why has to be supplied by the player.
Whether that is a role play goal, a desire to play along in the politics of the world, a desire to be involved in any war efforts or a desire to be a participant in the economic theater of the world, the player has to have a goal and one they "rode in on".
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Yeah you might be able to clear a spot in the woods, build a house with the wood you've collected, plant a crop, hunt, gather and craft, and then what? What happens next? Do you continue grinding materials for a bigger house, keep yourself fed etc. What do you do when you don't have to struggle anymore? Is that the endgame?
Thoughts?
It depends on the game. In ATITD, you can get into lawmaking, leading the big projects, or even try for Pharoah. In UO, there's also multiple paths such as running a venue (mall, tavern, battle arena, etc), getting into the ongoing plot, dare I suggest joining the roleplaying guilds.
The players that stick around in sandbox-style games aren't always focused on the progression mechanics, they are often focused on the gameplay mechanics. The crucial difference there is the former leaves when progression ends, and the latter settles into the mechanics that best fits their interest or play style. For example, a player may find mining and making weapons fun, eventually setting up a shop/business where they sell weapons to players or even entire guilds. Building a name for themselves in that field or even simply the act of running their own shop may be what the player is looking for, and they may do that for years on end, never experiencing the majority of the game's content, not because they can't but because they don't want to.
For many long-term MMO players in the sandbox-focused MMOs, the fun they are experiencing has little to do with goals set by the game and almost nothing to do with reaching caps, let alone being able to do everything.
EDIT: You're not one for trolling and baiting, so I have to assume this was a genuine question, although I am very surprised sandbox design (the reasons for it and how players use it) is this alien to you.
The question is pertinent to what I am about to propose in another thread.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Originally posted by ikcin Simply themepark players are afraid from the freedom.
No, they aren't "afraid" they just show up in the game with a completely different set of desires and expectations.
The person who prefers theme parks are there to be entertained. The person who prefers sandbox already knows what will entertain them and they just want the tools to do it.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Originally posted by ikcin Simply themepark players are afraid from the freedom.
It's telling to see how incredibly many of the responses the OP has gotten are nothing more than mindless insults hurled at anyone not worshiping at the "Sandbox" altar.
That, and the lack of any answer that isn't something you couldn't just as easily do in WoW as the supposed "sandbox" of the week.
Originally posted by ikcin Simply themepark players are afraid from the freedom.
It's telling to see how incredibly many of the responses the OP has gotten are nothing more than mindless insults hurled at anyone not worshiping at the "Sandbox" altar.
That, and the lack of any answer that isn't something you couldn't just as easily do in WoW as the supposed "sandbox" of the week.
I didn't know I could sail or go explore distant places on my boat in WoW
I didn't know that I could gear up my guild with the best geat that I MADE which is the best gear in the game in WoW
I didn't know that I could just simply stand on a roadside in WoW and watch people pass me riding tractors, donkeys, walking and more as they head down trade routes in WoW
I didn't know that I could grow trees to help build boats for my guildies in WoW
I didn't know I could fight world bosses in WoW with siege weapons
I didn't know I could create music in WoW
I didn't know I could learn the Horde language in WoW
I didn't know I could undersea treasure hunt in WoW
I didn't know me and my guildies could load up on some galleons because we got hired to protect a trade shipment by another guild in WoW.
So, wait you're telling me that I can make the best gear in the game in WoW instead of having to gear grind for it in some raid? You're saying that I can be renowned on the server for making the best weapons and armor? You're saying that players can become -server famous- in WoW for helping to contribute to the community?
Hell if you tell me that this is the case now I'll pack up and head back!
What version of WoW are you playing because I want to play that version.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
Yeah you might be able to clear a spot in the woods, build a house with the wood you've collected, plant a crop, hunt, gather and craft, and then what? What happens next? Do you continue grinding materials for a bigger house, keep yourself fed etc. What do you do when you don't have to struggle anymore? Is that the endgame?
Thoughts?
It depends on the game. In ATITD, you can get into lawmaking, leading the big projects, or even try for Pharoah. In UO, there's also multiple paths such as running a venue (mall, tavern, battle arena, etc), getting into the ongoing plot, dare I suggest joining the roleplaying guilds.
The players that stick around in sandbox-style games aren't always focused on the progression mechanics, they are often focused on the gameplay mechanics. The crucial difference there is the former leaves when progression ends, and the latter settles into the mechanics that best fits their interest or play style. For example, a player may find mining and making weapons fun, eventually setting up a shop/business where they sell weapons to players or even entire guilds. Building a name for themselves in that field or even simply the act of running their own shop may be what the player is looking for, and they may do that for years on end, never experiencing the majority of the game's content, not because they can't but because they don't want to.
For many long-term MMO players in the sandbox-focused MMOs, the fun they are experiencing has little to do with goals set by the game and almost nothing to do with reaching caps, let alone being able to do everything.
EDIT: You're not one for trolling and baiting, so I have to assume this was a genuine question, although I am very surprised sandbox design (the reasons for it and how players use it) is this alien to you.
The question is pertinent to what I am about to propose in another thread.
I figured there would be more this. Seemed an odd question coming from you.
Cool beans. Looking forward to it, Quirhid!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by ikcin Simply themepark players are afraid from the freedom.
It's telling to see how incredibly many of the responses the OP has gotten are nothing more than mindless insults hurled at anyone not worshiping at the "Sandbox" altar.
It's annoying really, because they're pissing all over a decent thread.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Yeah you might be able to clear a spot in the woods, build a house with the wood you've collected, plant a crop, hunt, gather and craft, and then what? What happens next? Do you continue grinding materials for a bigger house, keep yourself fed etc. What do you do when you don't have to struggle anymore? Is that the endgame?
Thoughts?
Isn't the point of sandbox that someone comes along and burns down your house and crops and start over.
Comments
Any sandbox in the context of an MMORPG or, really, for that matter, any MMORPG that does not attempt to be a living breathing world is a failure.
Look at the answers he's getting though. Far too many are focused on maxing things and or becoming the best at something.
Sandbox has become one of those things people ask for because they can and never stop to think if it's something they should. So he probably was baiting people into demonstrating that, but I wouldn't consider that trolling. I would guess that most of the people who wave their sandbox pom-poms in every new launch would probably be bored and quit in worm online within days.
And here is the problem, you don/t like open world pvp, and see open world pvp as the main point of sandboxes, the thing is they aren't.
Cooperation it seems means nothing to players like you who always claim that you want it when you really don't. Now one thing I will say in your favor is that the problem is of many sandboxes is that the pvp seems to be over emphasized. Developers of sandboxes need to stress the other aspects of the game. SWG does this perfectly, ArcheAge also does a decent job. Just stand near any road and you will see people going by on donkeys, tractors and other vehicles. The differences of a sandbox is that the world lives, its not just about ganking people, its about being part of the world. A solo minded themepark player will never get this. Just because you think the world should be mastered and left says enough.
As I've told people you have to approach sandbox games with a Real Time Strategy mindset otherwise you won't like the game. You have to think about more than yourself. Coming into the game just to -win- and -win- for -me- and me alone is why the genre has taken a severe downturn.,
You want to play games, we want to play world simulators. Those who have seen the anime series Log Horizon can understand why sandboxes are more appealing in the long run than some simple minded me for me level grinder meet it and beat it themepark like SAO.
I ask you again you are basically saying you want skyrim with mods, why even pay an mmo then?
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
It is exactly about making a living breathing world, if you can't understand why you don't understand the topic. The OP asked "Then what" when it comes to sandboxes
the "Then What" is becoming part of the world and influencing it as a whole. Not just for yourself.
That adds to the concept of "Living Breathing World"
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
Fine. Derail away...
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Amen, unfortunately most themeparkers who have never experienced a sandbox (and usually tend to be quite anti social in real life cannot see the forest for the trees)
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
Sorry you don't understand *shrugs*
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
Lets for arguments sake say that WoW had no level caps... basically it's endless... you can keep grinding the same dailies, the same mobs, et al forever. At what point do you say to yourself... this is pointless?
Ultimately there needs to be an activity that is fun to do, not merely a task to do. Otherwise having limitless levels or no levels at all becomes pointless. The reality is, there is a point to levels... it gives someone something to strive towards. If everything is limitless you get to the point where you get tired of going no where endlessly.
I think you've hit the nail on the head. Sandbox works for a lot of people in theory. In reality, a satisfactory sandbox game is near impossible to deliver to them as they have a laundry list of a dozen or so very specific features. Of those features, if a single one is absent or not designed to their rigid criteria then that feature becomes the 'deal breaker' preventing them from enjoying the game.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The only problem with sandboxes is when short sighted themepark gamers play them and don't understand how to set goals like accomplishing something of social benefit in the game, not just benefit for themselves.
Its a sad day really because it points to society as a whole. I can only wonder what the world will be like in the hands of such antisocial people.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
Another person who has obviously never played a game like Civilization, Age of Empires or others, nor has seen series like Log Horizon
The ultimate point of a sandbox is to not only do what you want, but also help others, its the most cooperative form of true mmo there is. You gain rep by being the best at something on the server. You then turn your attention to helping others through what you can do. Its that simple. In a sandbox its about kingdom building along with me building.
Bruce Lee did not simply "stop" when he mastered Kung Fu, he turned his attention to others and started to teach.
A history lesson for those that don't get sandboxes. MMORPGS started off the back of pen and paper rpgs. People who started the genre and played in its early days wanted virtual worlds. Places where they can actually have influence. When developers saw the more solo friendly wow which brought in more casual players much of the focus changed.
If you don't get them hey that's absolutely fine. You don't have to force yourself to like anything. There are more than enough themeparks out there to go "beat"
Me? I'd rather live in a world than play just a series of levels while sitting in a city waiting for a queue to pop.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
Congratulation. Now you have finished the tutorial and the sandbox game is beginning.
Start to look up. Look around you. What is happening? What communities have arised? In what way is the world changing? How will you participate? In different communities, in the world overall.
Do you want to leave a trace? Do you want to get influence? Do you want to have a look what other around you do, or have accomplished?
Maybe just run around and wait what will happen next. It can be suprisingly sometimes.
PS:
All that is theoretical, right? Or do you actually talk about a existing sandbox game? Because if it would be specific, you could get actually some specific answers, where to start next. Because you just entered the game basicly.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Helping others is doing something else... I'm saying when you've done everything endlessly and there is no end in sight, eventually you have to ask yourself what is the point? You point out games, civ and the like. Well are you still playing them 24/7? Honestly... if it is all that, you still would be. But you tire of it eventually because there seems to be no end. So unless you can find something "somewhat new" to do in game... it gets old real fast.
And maybe sandboxes are just not for you. Right now I'm playing ArcheAge, and I know there are so many things I want to master to help my community in the long run its sick.
Its really okay not to like something. Myself? This is the first time I've felt at home in an mmo in years because I see the possibilities and I see the social aspects I've been looking for and have finally found.
Also "helping others" is not something else for me, its just as important for me as the rest of the game. Why? Well right now I"m working on weaponsmsaking, so I plan on gearing up my guild for eventual pvp on trade runs. After that I want to master tailoring for cloth armor again to help gear up my guild. Then I want to master carpentry to become a great bowmaker, again to help other people - especially roleplayers. My personal goal is to become one of the best anti gankers on the server. I know this will take time because I want to make sure I have the best gear first. I also want to help my guild increase their chances of survivability.
See thing is all of this is part of the game for me. ArcheAge's meta game for me matters just as much as its normal game. I think of my place in the world in a sandbox and through my skills gain influence. These are not things that the game "tells me to do" but in a sandbox I can see the possibility of doing these things more.
I don't play mmos to just see people and wave at them as I run by while gear grinding.
I play to become "Oh that's that Ranger guy, he makes great blades and armor, you want to talk to him and he should give you a good deal on a nice sword or bow if that's what you're looking for"
To just look at what the game "tells you" what to do is shortsighted and ignoring what you -can- do
In pen and paper rpgs that type of player is the one who basically just plays the game off his sheet. I'm a roleplayer, the guy who this genre was made for in the first place. So in a sandbox like when I play pen and paper games I don't just play off my sheet nor do I just do what the game tells me what I can do mechanically.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
My thoughts focus on the 'why". This is where most players fail.
That is why the theme park is so popular because the 'why' is supplied by the developer and the player plays along.
With a sandbox game the why has to be supplied by the player.
Whether that is a role play goal, a desire to play along in the politics of the world, a desire to be involved in any war efforts or a desire to be a participant in the economic theater of the world, the player has to have a goal and one they "rode in on".
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
The question is pertinent to what I am about to propose in another thread.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
No, they aren't "afraid" they just show up in the game with a completely different set of desires and expectations.
The person who prefers theme parks are there to be entertained. The person who prefers sandbox already knows what will entertain them and they just want the tools to do it.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
It's telling to see how incredibly many of the responses the OP has gotten are nothing more than mindless insults hurled at anyone not worshiping at the "Sandbox" altar.
That, and the lack of any answer that isn't something you couldn't just as easily do in WoW as the supposed "sandbox" of the week.
I didn't know I could sail or go explore distant places on my boat in WoW
I didn't know that I could gear up my guild with the best geat that I MADE which is the best gear in the game in WoW
I didn't know that I could just simply stand on a roadside in WoW and watch people pass me riding tractors, donkeys, walking and more as they head down trade routes in WoW
I didn't know that I could grow trees to help build boats for my guildies in WoW
I didn't know I could fight world bosses in WoW with siege weapons
I didn't know I could create music in WoW
I didn't know I could learn the Horde language in WoW
I didn't know I could undersea treasure hunt in WoW
I didn't know me and my guildies could load up on some galleons because we got hired to protect a trade shipment by another guild in WoW.
So, wait you're telling me that I can make the best gear in the game in WoW instead of having to gear grind for it in some raid? You're saying that I can be renowned on the server for making the best weapons and armor? You're saying that players can become -server famous- in WoW for helping to contribute to the community?
Hell if you tell me that this is the case now I'll pack up and head back!
What version of WoW are you playing because I want to play that version.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
Is this what they look like when they play a sandbox game? lol
I figured there would be more this. Seemed an odd question coming from you.
Cool beans. Looking forward to it, Quirhid!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It's annoying really, because they're pissing all over a decent thread.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I think its pretty simple. 1) Gather resources
2) Build stuff
3) ???
4) profit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tO5sxLapAts
Isn't the point of sandbox that someone comes along and burns down your house and crops and start over.