What does Pay-2-Win mean to you?

Talonsin

Over in the Archeage section there is a thread about the game being pay-to-win.  I am confused by how badly the MMO community has mangled the definition of P2W.  Let me ask you a few questions:

 

1. If I have a job/real life where I can get away with playing an MMO 4 hours each evening and then 15 to 20 hours on weekends, does that make me P2W over someone who only plays a total of 10 hours a week?

2. If I am in a big guild and we do activities together to make money and earn valuable loot, does that make me P2W over others who are not in big guilds?

 

There will always be someone in your MMO who plays more, gets to max level faster or has worked with friends to get better loot than you, so how can a game like Archeage be considered P2W when a FREE player can work with friends, do trade runs to earn gold and then use the gold to buy patron status and have all the access a paying customer has?  What advantage does buying a sub give me that you a free player can’t get with a little bit of effort?  If “getting there faster” is now P2W than all you guys who play more than 10 hours a week are P2W from my point of view.  Let us look at Archeage as an example:

 

1. A guy buys a sub and keeps subbing the whole year he plays.  He plays for about 10 hours a week.

2. A guy plays free and quests to max level, then buys a sub for one month and builds a farmhouse and farms.  He plays a solid 30 to 35 hours a week and earns a ton of resources then sells them all to earn money to keep his sub going.

3. A guy plays free, joins a big guild and does trade runs with them on weekends.  Over the course of 60 days he hits max level and earns enough to start using in-game currency to pay for his sub.

 

Where is the advantage?  After a certain amount of time the guys in #2 and #3 will have more than the guy in #1 above since he only plays 10 hours a week.  The guy who subbed from the start paid more to Trion but earned less.  How is this P2W?  Where is the big advantage in the sub OTHER than convenience?

My opinion is that P2W means spending money on a sub or in the cash shop can earn you something that gives you an advantage that people not spending money CAN NOT earn on their own.  A weapon that does more damage or an ability to teleport away from an attacker, these are P2W things.  Right now I pay for a sub and yet there are many free players who are higher level than me.  Where is my advantage for the sub?  What did I get from my sub that gives me an advantage you can’t reasonable earn in the game yourself?  I can own land, so can you if you work with friends, do trade runs and use in-game currency to pay for the sub. 

I don’t think boosts or getting to max level faster, (all things being equal) is P2W.  I think it is more of a luxury that people can choose to buy or decide not to.  You are never going to be equally matched against someone in an MMO.  Someone always has more time to play, more friends to play with or has more fighting skill than you, that doesn’t make him P2W.     

So what are your thoughts on P2W?  What does P2W mean to you?

azzamasin

People always talk about P2W in the context of F2P games but I think it's 100 times more prevalent in Subscription gaming, If you pay a subscription and the developers bend to your needs while dismissing the overwhelming majority of others then I consider that P2W.  Example....Raid centric games that only ever release content for Large Groups or Games that only release PvP Content and you don't like PvP.  Too me this is the highest form of Pay to Win.  And the reason why I lathe Subscription Gaming.  If there was ever an MMO that released solo content on a grand scale and the game was aggressively designed for the small scale, exploration centric, long progression solo player then maybe I might pay a subscription but sine there isn't I ain't.

 

My other definition is one in which associated with the indie Korean/Chinese MMO's.

 

However the following are not examples of Pay to Win.....No matter how you feel about it.

• Exp Potions
• Cosmetic items
• Power Items that can be found in the game
• Labor potions
• Lockboxes
• Treasure chest keys

 

 

DamonVile

P2W means one of two things now when you see it posted here.

Type A WHAAA I want games to go back in time to when everything was a sub!!

Type B WHAAA I want everything for free and the devs should run the game off their candy allowance they get from their mom.

 

There are pay to win games out there but they're not the ones people here bitch about.

Forgrimm

Originally posted by azzamasin

People always talk about P2W in the context of F2P games but I think it's 100 times more prevalent in Subscription gaming, If you pay a subscription and the developers bend to your needs while dismissing the overwhelming majority of others then I consider that P2W.  Example....Raid centric games that only ever release content for Large Groups or Games that only release PvP Content and you don't like PvP.  Too me this is the highest form of Pay to Win.  And the reason why I lathe Subscription Gaming.  If there was ever an MMO that released solo content on a grand scale and the game was aggressively designed for the small scale, exploration centric, long progression solo player then maybe I might pay a subscription but sine there isn't I ain't.

How is that pay to win when everyone is paying the same subscription price and everyone has access to the same content? If a person chooses not to raid or not to PVP, that has absolutely nothing to do with money.

Kaladin

I don't know about your scenarios, but my definition is this:

If you can buy something with real life currency that gives you an advantage in combat that cannot be equaled or exceeded by not paying, the game is P2W.

Simple as that.

centkin

Pay to Win generally means the game caters to whales to give significant advantage over people who pay at normal subscription levels to twice that.

When you have a massive boost in the stats etc given by items at high plusses and you have to pay for protection for the items in question or they break and the chances are low for them to work, you have the makings of a pay to win game.

IE any normal person can only get them to +8.  You can pay about $20 and likely end up with a +11, or you can pay about $800 and get a +15.  The +15 does three times as much damage as the +8, and encounters are scaled so the +15s are needed to do a significant amount of the content.

Forgrimm

People don't know what a real pay-to-win game is until they play something like Wartune, where everything that you can spend money on directly increases the power of your character, and increases it rapidly and significantly. That's pay to win. If person A plays the game for 3 months and spends $0, and person B plays the game for 3 months and spends $500, person B's character will be significantly more powerful than person A. And what makes it even worse is the fact that the game has a power-loop event system in which rewards that you get from one event are used in a subsequent event. So the more items you get in event 1, the more you can spend in event 2, which gives you more rewards from that 2nd event. This cycle repeats itself every month and creates a situation where the rich get richer, and the powerful get even more powerful.

Battlerock

Originally posted by azzamasin

People always talk about P2W in the context of F2P games but I think it's 100 times more prevalent in Subscription gaming, If you pay a subscription and the developers bend to your needs while dismissing the overwhelming majority of others then I consider that P2W.  Example....Raid centric games that only ever release content for Large Groups or Games that only release PvP Content and you don't like PvP.  Too me this is the highest form of Pay to Win.  And the reason why I lathe Subscription Gaming.  If there was ever an MMO that released solo content on a grand scale and the game was aggressively designed for the small scale, exploration centric, long progression solo player then maybe I might pay a subscription but sine there isn't I ain't. My other definition is one in which associated with the indie Korean/Chinese MMO's. However the following are not examples of Pay to Win.....No matter how you feel about it. Exp Potions Cosmetic items Power Items that can be found in the game Labor potions Lockboxes Treasure chest keys    

 

experience potions and pay to faster items are pay to win, the games would be better if there was no leveling grind, they would be more attractive for people to try out too.

thinktank001

Originally posted by Talonsin

So what are your thoughts on P2W?  What does P2W mean to you?

 

P2W is just paying for an advantage.  There is no subjectivity in the acroynm.  It is just how the microtransaction model is built.  

 

What matters is whether or not you consider the inequality too unfair to play.   As you have pointed out in your post AA's cash shop is ok for you, but that doesn't make it ok for everyone else.   

Loktofeit

 

To me, Pay to Win means that players can buy an advantage not otherwise attainable/obtainable through normal gameplay. The most ubiquitous example of Pay to Win is charging for expansions. 

 

mmoguy43

To me it means paying real money to get an advantage over someone else that is either not attainable by normal playing or by playing an abnormally tortuous amount to obtain it. But for me this is only really relavant in PvP of MMOs where you can win over players. There is no "winning" in PvE.

Most obvious example would be a weapon that you can only buy with real money or grind for a thousand hours that deals 10% more damage than what you can normally acquire.

Ridiculous example of not P2W is a dye that can be bought that makes your character slightly darker and barely harder to see.

 

What determines as an advantage? Something that does have a real effect of gameplay. A guy that bought this thing that can kill me in 5 hits but I can only kill him in 6 hits.

TiamatRoar

The meaning is subjective, but for me I guess my own definition would be any game where you can have a significant advantage from the cash shop that also gives significant rewards (and thus, more advantages) for beating others in competitive play.

 

"Significant advantage" itself warrants a definition, and can change depending on the nature of the game. For example, exp boosts.  An advantage is an advantage and thus exp boosts count as an advantage. However, if the level cap is easy to reach, exp boosts aren't a SIGNIFICANT advantage.  If the level cap (including cap on any other bonuses you might get for exp) is hard to reach, it is significant. That's just one example, though.  Most F2P games that are P2W are sly enough to include other advantages in the cash shop like gear upgrade success rate boosters.  It becomes a significant advantage when non-pay has a miniscule chance to upgrade equipment while cashers have a much better chance and each chance (be it via broken equipment or upgrade mats) requires a few weeks+ of gameplay to get, etc.  Things like this trick the smaller spenders into thinking the game is okay while encouraging whales to spend.

 

"Competitive play rewards" for most facebook games involves things like ranking rewards in Arena, which are usually huge. That's how they encourage whales to spend.  Any game where PvP can have an impact for both the winner and loser also counts for obvious reasons, as you are rewarded for spending to make yourself stronger and punished for not spending as much as the guy that killed you.  Once again, smaller spenders think the game isn't P2W and thus keep playing but the whales are encouraged to spend.

 

Note that most P2W games technically are more "Pay AND play to win".  A person who only pays won't beat a person who pays AND plays.  Although in the worse case P2W games, a person who only pays (well, with a bare minimum of playtime) will beat a person who only plays.  There are different degrees of how bad it gets.

 

Perhaps "P2W" would be better broken down into "Just Pay and Win" and "Pay to have any chance whatsoever at winning".  Both IMHO are aggravating but obviously the first is worse than the second.

 

A game where a person who only plays still has at least some chance against a person who pays AND plays would be one of a non-P2W game.  However,  that sort of thing is rarely good for business.  I've yet to see any F2P game that has significant competitive aspects do something like that these days. (Path of Exile and Marvel Heroes don't have significant competitive aspects)

nbtscan

Spending extra money in a game that makes you potentially better than other players.  (e.g. paying for upgrades in one fell swoop over earning them over time, or paying for items that you can't normally obtain in game)

jmcdermottuk

Let's answer your questions about time spent first OP. 1 and 2 are both Playing to Win. You're talking about people spending time in game, playing the game and getting ahead. Neither of those are pay to win.

So what is pay to win? In a PvE environment, nothing is really pay to win because it's essentially you vs the game and you can't win an MMO.

In PvP that's a different story. Anything that gives an advantage, which is bought for real cash, particularly if it's in excess of a subscription, is paying to win, to get ahead of the crowd by throwing cash at the game and getting an advantage over people who don't throw that additional money at the devs.

 

That advantage could take the form of more powerful items or in the case of Archeage, I believe that the LP pots qualify, because LP is so essential to progression in the game. Regardless of a player's status as a free player or a patron, anyone willing to buy LP pots regularly, for cash, is going to have an advantage over those that don't. Seeing as Archage is also a very PvP centric game, that makes LP pots pay to win in my book.

 

The second part of your post talks about how players get to 50. So let's look at that. Regardles of how you get there, at some point the game will become top heavy with level 50 characters, it happens to all MMO's. At that point LP will still be a major factor, because it's so central to the games crafting, farming, economy etc. Even when everyone is 50, access to LP's will be crucial and once again, anyone willing to throw enough money at the game will have an advantage in how many LP they have at their disposal.

Phry

Pay to win to me just means that its possible to buy things in a games cash shop that will give the player an advantage over the players who do not.

 i think sometimes people try too hard to 'blur' the distinction of what an advantage is, but its just so much sophistry, if you can buy an item or unlock in a games cash shop, that gives you an advantage, then its pay to win, it doesn't really matter to what degree it is.

 As long as players know up front that the game they are considering playing has that feature, then that is fine. What is wrong with that kind of thing, is where the cash shop starts off with purely cosmetic items, and then other more 'effective' items begin appearing.

Vesavius

Pay to Win means, to me, simply that a game can ONLY be won by paying money.

 

If it can be won by playing the game, then it is not P2W.

 

AA, for example, has everything in it's cash store available for in game gold (via Apex), including it's sub. So it s not P2W. If you have the knowledge, you can start off easily as a freeb and turn your account into a patron, and buy labour pots, all by just playing. Hence it is not P2W.

 

 

grimal

Originally posted by Phry

Pay to win to me just means that its possible to buy things in a games cash shop that will give the player an advantage over the players who do not.

 i think sometimes people try too hard to 'blur' the distinction of what an advantage is, but its just so much sophistry, if you can buy an item or unlock in a games cash shop, that gives you an advantage, then its pay to win, it doesn't really matter to what degree it is.

 As long as players know up front that the game they are considering playing has that feature, then that is fine. What is wrong with that kind of thing, is where the cash shop starts off with purely cosmetic items, and then other more 'effective' items begin appearing.

I agree with what you say.  Win just means an advantage over others. 

It's difficult to determine what a win is an MMO.  Some will argue it's not possible, but I think the fault is more with who came up with the phrase.  Since MMORPGs are essentially CRPGs which are based off of PnP RPGs, we might be able to get a clearer picture of what win means here.  In a solo CRPG, I would define winning as finishing the last level or area of the game.  In PnP, in was usually determined by the level of the player and gear.  If a level 3 Thief fought a Level 7 Thief, chances are the seven would win.   If you happened to be a Paladin and manged to get a =10 Holy Avenger, I'd say you were winning over the guy next to you with the +4 Sword,

In an MMORPG, any sort of advantage that you can purchase (especially in PVP games where so much is about competing against your fellow player), is a P2W item to me.  Period.

That being said, it is up to the player to determine if that is a make or break feature for them. 

jmcdermottuk

Originally posted by Vesavius

Pay to Win means, to me, simply that a game can ONLY be won by paying money.

 

If it can be won by playing the game, then it is not P2W.

 

AA, for example, has everything in it's cash store available for in game gold (via Apex), including it's sub. So it s not P2W. If you have the knowledge, you can start off easily as a freeb and turn your account into a patron, and buy labour pots, all by just playing. Hence it is not P2W.

 

 

My deffinition is slightly simpler. If it can be won (an advantage is gained) by paying cash, then it is P2W.

Edit: As previously posted, this applies only to games with a strong PvP element. In PvE I don't think you can win an MMO.

 

What you say about AA is true yet there are probably people out there that won't do this, they'll just do it all with cash. So they are paying for that advantage. Hence it is P2W.

 

Don't you just love these subjective discussions that can never be won because we all think P2W means different things?

Octagon7711

P2W to me would be a person who buys someone elses account so they can play at max level right away (or leveling company).  Or someone who buys a ton of crafting materials and spends the day crafting to max level and buys the best equipment and weapons by converting real money to in game gold so he can buy the best stuff for his character.  A whale who by-passes the intended play style of the game by throwing money at it.

123443211234

P2W for me is very simple to determine.  If you paid real money for an advantage in game, doesn't matter what the advantage is, any advantage a player that didn't pay doesn't have, then it is pay to win.  That being said there are many different forms of p2w it could be something small like an xp booster or something big like purchasing actual skill points there is a wide variety of advantages out there and some games are far worse about this than others.  Ultimately it is up to you to determine whether or not cash plays too big a factor in your enjoyment of the game.  Personally I try to stick to subscription games without cash shops so you know everyone is on a level playing field.

TheScavenger

1. Can I earn it in the game?

  a. yes

  a1. It is very hard to get, payers get to skip hours of playing and hard team work to get it...pay to win

 b. It is very easy to get, anyone can get it...especially at higher levels...item is cheap on item mall...not really an advantage if its so easy to get...not really pay to win

 

2. Is there a HUGE cash shop button in my face?

 a. yes...*doesn't bother to look in shop, likely pay to win*

 b. No, cash shop button is in the menu screen, doesn't interfere with gameplay...must be a great cash shop model

 

3. Does it have a subscription on top of cash shop?

 a. yes...wtf, total pay to win cash grab

 b. no...great...huge step forward (or actually, step back because that is how free MMOs used to be...)

  b 1. overpowered items, super expensive, pay to win

  b 2. cheap items, mostly cosmetic and what not...not pay to win

  c. Or is it a Ryzom model, free to a point (but huge amount of gameplay till then) till hit a limit? Not pay to win

 

4. Do you have to spend more money every month than a year of MMO subscription (the case of many freemiums and free to play)

 a. yes...wtf are you doing playing a game that is more expensive than an MMO subscription

 b. no...great! Huge step forward from cash grab money grubbers

 

5. Limited time items in the cash shop? (looking at you guild wars 2)

 a. yes...pay to win and a quick cash grab

b. no...not pay to win

 

6. Does paying give an advantage to someone who doesn't pay?

 a. yes, pay to win

b. no, not pay to win

 

7. Does the company add more cash shop items than content?

 a. yes...pay to win, cash grubbers

b. no, probably not pay to win...at least they put more work and effort into the game

 

8. Does the company purposely put low drop rates (or even NERF drop rates or remove certain items) to force player to the cash shop? (looking at you guild wars 2)

 

 a. yes...completely pay to win...HUGE cash grubbers

b. no...great! Not likely pay to win

 

That is how I can tell its pay to win or not.

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Lissyl

Originally posted by Forgrimm

How is that pay to win when everyone is paying the same subscription price and everyone has access to the same content? If a person chooses not to raid or not to PVP, that has absolutely nothing to do with money.

Oh it may very well have a lot to do with money, just not in the directly obvious way.  For instance, if you have a job day trading and I'm a waitress at 2 jobs to make ends meet, I'm going to have a lot of trouble raiding that you won't and the cause of it is money.  Just, not money paid directly to [company].  Now I think there are ways to alleviate this problem with in-game solutions, but the fact that the problem exists is something often overlooked.  Unfortunately, sub games have proven themselves incapable of offering proper content in exchange for the constant money.

 

My definition of p2w is when something necessary, equivalent, or virtually required isn't available in-game.  So like if there's a particular weapon and all the other weapons aren't enough to help you down [boss], only this one weapon will, and it's only on the cash shop...that's p2w.  Pretty much anything else isn't.  I'm happiest when things can be earned/grinded for/etc, or there are in-game ways -- even if they take a while -- to earn cash shop points.

Battlerock

Originally posted by Mtibbs1989

Oh this is going to be funny, because the first comment I see from someone they state opinion as fact. Honestly it's all dependent on what someone believes as pay to win. Pay to win can be to beat the game with money or to pay for gear not accessible to other players, to give a player a major advantage compared to those who don't spend as much or any at all. 

Honestly it varies from one opinion to next. I personally believe there are simply different degrees of pay to win. Some can be as minor as simply buying XP pots to gain a leveling advantage, a higher degree would be temporary stat buffs, and the highest would be obtaining special gear/costumes for significant stat gain.

+1 and thank you for acknowledging that even exp potions can be a form of pay to win. 

 

(Not picking on ESO, just using ESO as an example primarly because of 3 faction pvp)

Some games only last a few months and then fizzle out like ESO - so in ESO if you maxed our your progression faster, you got to enjoy the advantage while the game was relevant. An exp potion would have enabled you to pay to win in that case. Even a simple mount that you might have received as a pre order bonus would enabled you to gain the advantage faster.

The relevance of the game at any given point in time should be factored in as well.

 

Thankfully I have a max level character - only one max level character out of all the mmorpgs available, I have only one character because I can't stand to grind through the leveling to get to the main idea of the game and I refuse to pay more to skip content. At any rate thankfully I have that character in the greatest mmorpg there is, World of Warcraft.

 It's no wonder so many people always go back to WoW.

AA - I'm level 22

SWtor - I made it to level 27

GW2 - made it to level 25

Lotro - level 12

Rift - Level 37

Diablo 3 - level 70 on console - level 30 on pc

Wildstar - level 25

ESO - didn't bother even buying it

Neverwinter - level 15

EQ2 - level 15

FFARR - level 15

Eve - didn't bother 

TSW - didn't bother

Tera - level 10

I just can't waste my time doing boring shit I don't even care about - if they would have just given me a max level toon that was geared, I would probably be playing some of those games now, but if I'm going to grind something out, it's going to be something that's going to make me some money, and I sure as hell will not spend more money just to skip the useless irrelevant waste of time content in the games, as you can tell I would rather not play them.

I end up just going back to wow, where I have a level maxed toon ready for me to gear and up just enjoy the stuff I want to enjoy.

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Battlerock

Originally posted by Mtibbs1989

Yeah, I updated my post a bit. I play a lot of pay to win games. I enjoy having an advantage over those who don't pay because I have the funds to do so. What I didn't add to my previous post is that I play games where there are extremely large level caps. Angels Online, Anarchy Online, Wakfu, and Dofus are a few examples of games where out leveling a player through EXP potions can lead to becoming much stronger than other players.

In fact in Anarchy Online simply having an subscription sets players light years ahead of the Freebie player base as the gear and leveling curve is a massive advantage. So you can even say that paying for a subscription for example. Patron status in ArcheAge is "pay to win" as you are getting an advantage over other players who don't pay for that advantage.

I have the funds too, but I am also a tight wad. You will get there someday kid. Things like retirement, healthcare, and taking care of your own family trump spending money on stupid video games.