Awesome topic, what will be next? What does Potato mean to you? Seriously.
Pay-2-Win = pay for any form of advantage
There is no hidden meaning, its that simple.
It's funny you say that.
I believe that everybody really knows what it means deep down. Nobody questions "P2W" when talking about the many games games from publishers like G-Pot, Aeria, and PWI and the like.
It's only when the game is something someone likes, but has P2W.....or elements of it, and they don't want to admit it. Then we start seeing semantics.
"You don't really 'Win' in an MMO"
Well, maybe..........but you can sure as hell lose in PVP.
Exactly. People become emotionally attached to a game and the idea that they enjoy a P2W game scares them to the point of denial.
What defines an advantage in PvP? People keep mentioning leveling potions as being P2W, but thats not the case in a lot of PvP games either. P2W doesn't change its meaning... what does change its meaning is "win". What constitutes as winning?
If its getting to max level, then yeah that could be pay 2 win if they sell potions. If its getting raid gear, and you can buy that in a cash shop.. then that too would be paying to win. If its buying PvP gear that is very costly to get without paying real money for then that too is winning.
Most games don't have those options, and max level isn't winning...
Awesome topic, what will be next? What does Potato mean to you? Seriously.
Pay-2-Win = pay for any form of advantage
There is no hidden meaning, its that simple.
It's funny you say that.
I believe that everybody really knows what it means deep down. Nobody questions "P2W" when talking about the many games games from publishers like G-Pot, Aeria, and PWI and the like.
It's only when the game is something someone likes, but has P2W.....or elements of it, and they don't want to admit it. Then we start seeing semantics.
"You don't really 'Win' in an MMO"
Well, maybe..........but you can sure as hell lose in PVP.
Exactly. People become emotionally attached to a game and the idea that they enjoy a P2W game scares them to the point of denial.
What defines an advantage in PvP? People keep mentioning leveling potions as being P2W, but thats not the case in a lot of PvP games either. P2W doesn't change its meaning... what does change its meaning is "win". What constitutes as winning?
If its getting to max level, then yeah that could be pay 2 win if they sell potions. If its getting raid gear, and you can buy that in a cash shop.. then that too would be paying to win. If its buying PvP gear that is very costly to get without paying real money for then that too is winning.
Most games don't have those options, and max level isn't winning...
Who cares? You (not "you" specifically, but proverbially) are getting your ass handed to you EVERY TIME by the same guys.
It's only after that....that we need to think of how to define advantage.
If there were no such thing happening, I guarantee you, this topic/thread wouldn't even exist. Everyone wouldn't even take notice of it since it would hav ebeen a non-issue. But it IS an issue........Why do you think that is?
To me, Pay to Win means that players can buy an advantage not otherwise attainable/obtainable through normal gameplay. The most ubiquitous example of Pay to Win is charging for expansions.
Come on, Lok. If buying an expansion is P2W then so too is buying the initial game, itself.
Originally posted by grimal ...If the potion gives you an advantage (such as leveling faster) and is sold in a cash shop, then the item is P2W. If you are not bothered by it, that's fine. But that doesn't change what it is.
My thoughts exactly.
In the normal sense of Expansions, I agree with Arclan. In WoD, players will level to 100 and start a progression for all new gear. But I am fairly certain that out of the millions of sales, You would be very hard pressed to find find a single person who is buying WoD for the sole purpose of going back after the fact to kick ass against all the old MoP players. In fact, you can't, you aren't in that bracket anymore. So, there is no advantage to be had.
However, recalling back to when Funcom Released the LoX "booster" for Anarchy Online for $20.00 with new content and new gear, but no new levels, Yeah, for stuff like that it absolutely was P2W.
If you meet an opponent in a duel, and you're perfectly equally skilled, then the one with the tiniest bought advantage will win. That means that any advantage is basically pay2win.
So I think that if a game allows you to pay real money for any advantage in the game, it's a pay2win game. Of course, some are worse than others, but that's always the case.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar I think the better question is what do you consider an advantage. To me xp potions are not an advantage. There will always be people faster more efficient or more hours than me so i can't consider anyone who is faster to have an advantage. To me an advantage is when they can kill something or have an ability i don't it can't becauseodd what they bought ( at my particular level ).
Normally, I would agree. But videos games are all about "wasting time." If a person feels they need to pay real cash in order to spend less time playing the game... It boggles my mind
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar I think the better question is what do you consider an advantage. To me xp potions are not an advantage. There will always be people faster more efficient or more hours than me so i can't consider anyone who is faster to have an advantage. To me an advantage is when they can kill something or have an ability i don't it can't becauseodd what they bought ( at my particular level ).
Normally, I would agree. But videos games are all about "wasting time." If a person feels they need to pay real cash in order to spend less time playing the game... It boggles my mind
I don't agree with the "wasting time." I don't play MMOs to waste my time, I play them to enjoy my time.
But I get what you're saying. I think this particular MMO where it is PVP in nature and > level always has an advantage, especially when it's a race to do so for many. So I would absolutely consider it P2W.
Originally posted by maskedweasel Leveling speed isn't really P2W... it would actually be considered convenience. What do you gain truly by leveling faster than someone else? If time ='s money then why can't money = time? The more you spend monetarily the less you spend chronologically. Where P2W really comes in are boosts to things that are integral to actually "winning" the game. For example - games that require a gear grind as end game. If you can get a full suit of end game gear - the end all be all of gear people grind months for -- then yes that would be pay 2 win. Technically having to play the game and grind dungeons requires at least the rudimentary sense of longevity and skill to accomplish the task -- so someone who is able to bypass all of that with a wallet would definitely "win" in that situation having to do none of that.I think most companies are pretty good at trying to get people to pay for convenience rather than getting people to pay for massive advantages.
Depends on what your criteria is for "winning." If getting to the end game is it, then XP potions are right up the P2W alley
Usually, P2W is more of a PvP game term. When a player can buy (real money) equipment that makes them better than players that do not, you have a distinct advantage over others through money and affect them greatly. When the term is used in PvE games, it gets trickier. If a player gets to the "end game" faster than I do, I really do not care and I am not affected in the least bit by their expenditures.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Leveling faster is not an advantage though. At any particular level they can't do anything more than i can do. At a higher level the higher level is always at an advantage. The potion doesn't change that.
Don't think of XP potions in a comparative way. You are right that they affect nobody else. Think, rather, in a singular way. If a player desires to "win" the game, usually by getting to the end game, they are paying with real money in order to "win" sooner.
It affects no one else, but they are still buying an advantage, even if only to themselves. Did that make any sense? (Trying to steer clear of bad analogies )
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar I think the better question is what do you consider an advantage. To me xp potions are not an advantage. There will always be people faster more efficient or more hours than me so i can't consider anyone who is faster to have an advantage. To me an advantage is when they can kill something or have an ability i don't it can't becauseodd what they bought ( at my particular level ).
Normally, I would agree. But videos games are all about "wasting time." If a person feels they need to pay real cash in order to spend less time playing the game... It boggles my mind
I don't agree with the "wasting time." I don't play MMOs to waste my time, I play them to enjoy my time.
OK, yes. You are correct
I should have said, "wasting FUN time"
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
There are two finite items that every player has: time and money. If you can enhance the time (by, like, um.....XP potions) by paying for them, you are absolutely gaining an advantage which equivocates to the same meaning in any PVP-based P2W game (be it MMO or FPS).
The thing is something which is fun wont' be fun if you repeat it 100 times. That's the problem with many f2p games on the market. If you want to get to the fun content you either have to repeat it 100 times or you can bypass it with this "speed up" item in the cash shop.
First let's define "win". My definition of winning in an MMO is when you reach the point of being valuable on a team that is doing something hard. The team is going after a boss, or going into PvP, for example, and we want only good players on the team.
In the old days, if you saw someone with the Uber Sword of Doom (USOD), you knew they had to have played a lot, and they had earned it. You could figure that anyone with the USOD was a veteran player who must have done quite a bit of difficult things.
Now comes the day when someone can just buy the USOD for $100. They're not a veteran, they didn't earn it by completing difficult tasks or killing tough enemies. They just bought it. There is no way to know if they are a good player or a complete noob. The USOD means nothing.
If the power level of your character increases by spending irl cash, then it's p2w in my books (in PvP at least because I cant dictate whether I have to associate with these players, not sure how much I care about it in PvE).
I dont care about minor p2w features, only the big ones, where someone pays cash and acquires very powerful items that would take ages to get otherwise. He skips the gameplay and pwns everyone because he put cash in the game, what's the point of even trying to compete here, if the person who spends most money is the "best" player of the game.
The fact that someone actually tried to claim that WoW is pay to win because you have to pay for expansions is proof positive that the term "pay-to-win" has been bastardized to the point of complete irrelevance.
Originally posted by Forgrimm The fact that someone actually tried to claim that WoW is pay to win because you have to pay for expansions is proof positive that the term "pay-to-win" has been bastardized to the point of complete irrelevance.
It's only bastardized to the point of complete irrelevance for those people. It's best to just ignore them because their comments are meaningless at that point. Some people just can't help trolling with semantic nonsense just to derail a perfectly valid topic.
I only use Pay 2 win in relation to PVP. For me it is buying advantages for PVP with real money. This isn't just about selling top tier PVP gear in a store. It can mean many things, depending on the game.
This doesn't mean I like it when games are selling PVE advantages in the shop though, but I just don't call that P2W. I mainly call that silly:p Particularly the people who buy this stuff to skip parts of a game. Paying extra to play less of a game lol.
Awesome topic, what will be next? What does Potato mean to you? Seriously.
Pay-2-Win = pay for any form of advantage
There is no hidden meaning, its that simple.
It's funny you say that.
I believe that everybody really knows what it means deep down. Nobody questions "P2W" when talking about the many games games from publishers like G-Pot, Aeria, and PWI and the like.
It's only when the game is something someone likes, but has P2W.....or elements of it, and they don't want to admit it. Then we start seeing semantics.
"You don't really 'Win' in an MMO"
Well, maybe..........but you can sure as hell lose in PVP.
Why did you leave out Blizzard, Trion, NCSoft, Turbine, CCP, Funcom, Arena Net, Bioware, and EnMasse in that list? They all sell P2W in at least one title in some way or another. Guess what, deep down they all are pay to win.
I only listed the most notorious. Not to mention that the ones you listed, are the ones at the point of my post. They are the ones people will argue about and split hairs over semantics. For me, I like to see at least the illusion of the publisher giving a shit about keeping P2W under control. I am not a fan of the "If you can't beat em, join em........" philosophy. That just makes it worse.
They talk about how the game's philosophy was built around the premise of anesthetics. Skins and dyes. And yet no new permanent skins and dyes have been added to the game's dungeon system since it released. All the new armors you can get are from the Cash Shop. With that said, and following the point that one of the foundational objectives of the game's design can only be accomplished through the Cash Shop, does that not meet the definition of P2W? Considering winning in GW2 does include new looks?
Awesome topic, what will be next? What does Potato mean to you? Seriously.
Pay-2-Win = pay for any form of advantage
There is no hidden meaning, its that simple.
It's funny you say that.
I believe that everybody really knows what it means deep down. Nobody questions "P2W" when talking about the many games games from publishers like G-Pot, Aeria, and PWI and the like.
It's only when the game is something someone likes, but has P2W.....or elements of it, and they don't want to admit it. Then we start seeing semantics.
"You don't really 'Win' in an MMO"
Well, maybe..........but you can sure as hell lose in PVP.
Why did you leave out Blizzard, Trion, NCSoft, Turbine, CCP, Funcom, Arena Net, Bioware, and EnMasse in that list? They all sell P2W in at least one title in some way or another. Guess what, deep down they all are pay to win.
I only listed the most notorious. Not to mention that the ones you listed, are the ones at the point of my post. They are the ones people will argue about and split hairs over semantics. For me, I like to see at least the illusion of the publisher giving a shit about keeping P2W under control. I am not a fan of the "If you can't beat em, join em........" philosophy. That just makes it worse.
They talk about how the game's philosophy was built around the premise of anesthetics. Skins and dyes. And yet no new permanent skins and dyes have been added to the game's dungeon system since it released. All the new armors you can get are from the Cash Shop. With that said, and following the point that one of the foundational objectives of the game's design can only be accomplished through the Cash Shop, does that not meet the definition of P2W? Considering winning in GW2 does include new looks?
Perhaps if people care about "winning" the game of "looking good", it may technically count as "pay-to-win". However, most people don't CARE about who wins the game of looking good or not. Which is why when most people say "Pay-To-Win", what they REALLY mean is "Pay-To-Win-A-Competition" (or, perhaps more accurately, "Pay-to-win-in-a-competitive environment")
Certainly, "Pay-To-Win" could encompass all types of winning, and if people wanted to be accurate, they'd say "P2WC" (Pay-to-win-competitively) but that just doesn't roll off the tongue quite as well.
So basically, whenever most people say "P2W", you can safely assume they REALLY mean "P2WC". No need to split hairs over the semantics.
(this can also extend to "pay-to-win-in-a-competitive-environment-where-the-competition-produces-meaningful-results", as opposed to games where PvP is "just for fun". Again, it's really best to assume that's what people mean instead of splitting hairs over semantics)
P2W = Pay to get a combative or progression advantage.. I don't view cash shop items like buying a pet P2W, nor do I view buying unique looking armor/weapon as P2W, or house items.. However, items such as gold/XP boost, loot with stats, faster mount, etc etc.. are all P2W variables.. I know most will defend their purchases saying they are only buying "convenience" but that is a very blurry fine line between convenience and advantage..
Originally posted by Forgrimm The fact that someone actually tried to claim that WoW is pay to win because you have to pay for expansions is proof positive that the term "pay-to-win" has been bastardized to the point of complete irrelevance.
What makes WoW pay2win is not expansions, but level 90 boosts. Its like (XP pots)2
IIRC the original meaning was anything advantageous (generally gear) you buy in a cash shop that can't be earned in-game is P2W
The only reason the term P2W has been distorted was to aid any particular persons whining/rant/-insert descriptor here- so their argument became "correct" and "true"
Comments
What defines an advantage in PvP? People keep mentioning leveling potions as being P2W, but thats not the case in a lot of PvP games either. P2W doesn't change its meaning... what does change its meaning is "win". What constitutes as winning?
If its getting to max level, then yeah that could be pay 2 win if they sell potions. If its getting raid gear, and you can buy that in a cash shop.. then that too would be paying to win. If its buying PvP gear that is very costly to get without paying real money for then that too is winning.
Most games don't have those options, and max level isn't winning...
Who cares? You (not "you" specifically, but proverbially) are getting your ass handed to you EVERY TIME by the same guys.
It's only after that....that we need to think of how to define advantage.
If there were no such thing happening, I guarantee you, this topic/thread wouldn't even exist. Everyone wouldn't even take notice of it since it would hav ebeen a non-issue. But it IS an issue........Why do you think that is?
In the normal sense of Expansions, I agree with Arclan. In WoD, players will level to 100 and start a progression for all new gear. But I am fairly certain that out of the millions of sales, You would be very hard pressed to find find a single person who is buying WoD for the sole purpose of going back after the fact to kick ass against all the old MoP players. In fact, you can't, you aren't in that bracket anymore. So, there is no advantage to be had.
However, recalling back to when Funcom Released the LoX "booster" for Anarchy Online for $20.00 with new content and new gear, but no new levels, Yeah, for stuff like that it absolutely was P2W.
If you meet an opponent in a duel, and you're perfectly equally skilled, then the one with the tiniest bought advantage will win. That means that any advantage is basically pay2win.
So I think that if a game allows you to pay real money for any advantage in the game, it's a pay2win game. Of course, some are worse than others, but that's always the case.
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I don't agree with the "wasting time." I don't play MMOs to waste my time, I play them to enjoy my time.
But I get what you're saying. I think this particular MMO where it is PVP in nature and > level always has an advantage, especially when it's a race to do so for many. So I would absolutely consider it P2W.
Usually, P2W is more of a PvP game term. When a player can buy (real money) equipment that makes them better than players that do not, you have a distinct advantage over others through money and affect them greatly. When the term is used in PvE games, it gets trickier. If a player gets to the "end game" faster than I do, I really do not care and I am not affected in the least bit by their expenditures.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
It affects no one else, but they are still buying an advantage, even if only to themselves. Did that make any sense? (Trying to steer clear of bad analogies
)
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I should have said, "wasting FUN time"
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I think exp potions dont' bother people in most games. Because reaching level cap don't take much time anyway.
But there are those games where it take 5000 hours to reach the level cap... and not having a double exp scroll really hamper your progress.
I think "most" people play mmorpg for fun.
The thing is something which is fun wont' be fun if you repeat it 100 times. That's the problem with many f2p games on the market. If you want to get to the fun content you either have to repeat it 100 times or you can bypass it with this "speed up" item in the cash shop.
First let's define "win". My definition of winning in an MMO is when you reach the point of being valuable on a team that is doing something hard. The team is going after a boss, or going into PvP, for example, and we want only good players on the team.
In the old days, if you saw someone with the Uber Sword of Doom (USOD), you knew they had to have played a lot, and they had earned it. You could figure that anyone with the USOD was a veteran player who must have done quite a bit of difficult things.
Now comes the day when someone can just buy the USOD for $100. They're not a veteran, they didn't earn it by completing difficult tasks or killing tough enemies. They just bought it. There is no way to know if they are a good player or a complete noob. The USOD means nothing.
That's pay-2-win.
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
If the power level of your character increases by spending irl cash, then it's p2w in my books (in PvP at least because I cant dictate whether I have to associate with these players, not sure how much I care about it in PvE).
I dont care about minor p2w features, only the big ones, where someone pays cash and acquires very powerful items that would take ages to get otherwise. He skips the gameplay and pwns everyone because he put cash in the game, what's the point of even trying to compete here, if the person who spends most money is the "best" player of the game.
It's only bastardized to the point of complete irrelevance for those people. It's best to just ignore them because their comments are meaningless at that point. Some people just can't help trolling with semantic nonsense just to derail a perfectly valid topic.
I only use Pay 2 win in relation to PVP. For me it is buying advantages for PVP with real money. This isn't just about selling top tier PVP gear in a store. It can mean many things, depending on the game.
This doesn't mean I like it when games are selling PVE advantages in the shop though, but I just don't call that P2W. I mainly call that silly:p Particularly the people who buy this stuff to skip parts of a game. Paying extra to play less of a game lol.
I only listed the most notorious. Not to mention that the ones you listed, are the ones at the point of my post. They are the ones people will argue about and split hairs over semantics. For me, I like to see at least the illusion of the publisher giving a shit about keeping P2W under control. I am not a fan of the "If you can't beat em, join em........" philosophy. That just makes it worse.
What I find ironic is this column;
Guild Wars 2 Column: Why Looking Good Matters
They talk about how the game's philosophy was built around the premise of anesthetics. Skins and dyes. And yet no new permanent skins and dyes have been added to the game's dungeon system since it released. All the new armors you can get are from the Cash Shop. With that said, and following the point that one of the foundational objectives of the game's design can only be accomplished through the Cash Shop, does that not meet the definition of P2W? Considering winning in GW2 does include new looks?
Perhaps if people care about "winning" the game of "looking good", it may technically count as "pay-to-win". However, most people don't CARE about who wins the game of looking good or not. Which is why when most people say "Pay-To-Win", what they REALLY mean is "Pay-To-Win-A-Competition" (or, perhaps more accurately, "Pay-to-win-in-a-competitive environment")
Certainly, "Pay-To-Win" could encompass all types of winning, and if people wanted to be accurate, they'd say "P2WC" (Pay-to-win-competitively) but that just doesn't roll off the tongue quite as well.
So basically, whenever most people say "P2W", you can safely assume they REALLY mean "P2WC". No need to split hairs over the semantics.
(this can also extend to "pay-to-win-in-a-competitive-environment-where-the-competition-produces-meaningful-results", as opposed to games where PvP is "just for fun". Again, it's really best to assume that's what people mean instead of splitting hairs over semantics)
Anyway in archeage instead of farming for ages j can just drop some money to instantly get 300g
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
What makes WoW pay2win is not expansions, but level 90 boosts. Its like (XP pots)2
IIRC the original meaning was anything advantageous (generally gear) you buy in a cash shop that can't be earned in-game is P2W
The only reason the term P2W has been distorted was to aid any particular persons whining/rant/-insert descriptor here- so their argument became "correct" and "true"