Originally posted by Shaigh The crowd asked for f2p, and now they got exactly the kind of service that's expected from a f2p game.
I agree, I think this was the biggest mistake from a player standpoint.
A competitive game should not have a marketplace that provides P2W advantages. Even if they are grey areas. B2P or sub would have solved many problems.
However that type of mistakes affect players, more than CEO's. Failure to put dollars on the bottom line affects CEO's.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Originally posted by Talrune As the title says, and yeah the damage control is not working step down you are sinking a company that had and has a future.
Yet another game consumer that believes he/she can make better business decisions than those that get paid to do so.
Not so much "armchair quarterbacking", but more like "basement executive".
Either way makes me laugh.
"Basement Executive" has WIN all over it. Well done, sir, well done.
I make spreadsheets at work - I don't want to make them for the games I play.
Originally posted by Talrune As the title says, and yeah the damage control is not working step down you are sinking a company that had and has a future.
Yet another game consumer that believes he/she can make better business decisions than those that get paid to do so.
Not so much "armchair quarterbacking", but more like "basement executive".
Either way makes me laugh.
It does not take a Masters in Business to see how poorly mismanaged this game is. This joke of a CEO even made fun of "ragers" during the crappy launch.
But I will tell you like I do all people like you who defend mediocrity based on the qualifications of the person being critical: The next time you get ANY kind of poor service I want you to remember this. Stick to your logic....if someone prepares you food poorly at a restuarant you are not allowed to complain unless you are a professional cook, if someone screws up your car repairs just live with it unless you are a mechanic and could have done better, if you see a terrible movie too bad, unless you can direct. See where I am going with this? Why gamers think these companies are off limits when it comes ot criticism is baffling to me. We are CONSUMERS too.
I just had an orgasm when I ready your reply. Well said, and perfectly relevant. You are 100% correct. The guy above you will be eating cold food, driving an unreliable car, and waiting pleasantly on hold for 2 hours, for the rest of his life. Right?? Unlikely, hell be the first one to complain when his hot flapa chino latte is cold at Starbucks.
Originally posted by mcrippins In fairness - the $150 I spent on Alpha was probably the most fun in a game i've had in years. Post launch and the introduction of the cash shop is what sucked. Before that, everyone was simply a paying customer with no cash shop or p2w items. It was awesome
Buy what you want. Game's a mess. Evidence was there long before Trion picked it up.
Its a mess in many peoples opinions. Including my own. But there are also, still a fair number of people playing it.
Not an issue here of whether you or I think the game is screwed up. Its an issue of whether it is screwed up enough to warrant company action against the CEO.
Maybe but you haven't haven't provided any smoking gun, other than your opinion and an unfounded allegation, in your argument.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Buy what you want. Game's a mess. Evidence was there long before Trion picked it up.
Its a mess in many peoples opinions. Including my own. But there are also, still a fair number of people playing it.
Not an issue here of whether you or I think the game is screwed up. Its an issue of whether it is screwed up enough to warrant company action against the CEO.
Maybe but you haven't haven't provided any smoking gun, other than your opinion and an unfounded allegation, in your argument.
It is true that the Executive Staff (not just the CEO) will have to explain the disaster that is ArcheAge to their board. The reality is that they will not have to explain all of the problems that have occurred... they will have to explain why they didn't foresee them. Trion is not the first company that has tried to do third party publishing (and will not be the last). Many companies (some much larger, with more experience) have tried and failed with this business model. The only big mistake that Trion has made was to believe that they would be able to do better than all of the other failures.... without actually doing anything different. The executive team made the decision to go into third party publishing, believing that they would not fail like most everyone else, because they were just that good (not that they were doing anything different).
Buy what you want. Game's a mess. Evidence was there long before Trion picked it up.
Its a mess in many peoples opinions. Including my own. But there are also, still a fair number of people playing it.
Not an issue here of whether you or I think the game is screwed up. Its an issue of whether it is screwed up enough to warrant company action against the CEO.
Maybe but you haven't haven't provided any smoking gun, other than your opinion and an unfounded allegation, in your argument.
OK, Now I see what you mean. I really wasn't trying to imply that the CEO needs to step down. I wasn't clear there. I was implying that this joint venture with XL was not handled properly, and the issues that have followed have not been unforeseeable based on the prior history of this game in other markets. I do think he needs to grab this bull by the horns. But this is where I was going. It certainly appears that he may not be able to, and that his hands are tied contractually. And if that's the case, that is where they failed in their due diligence. That would be a bad agreement, based on a gamble that didn't pay off as well as they'd have hoped. This has resulted in irreparable damage to Trion's credibility and now, questionable competency. Or at least brings the question of exactly what is their relationship with XL Games vs. what they had originally told the players they would have control over.
OK, Now I see what you mean. I really wasn't trying to imply that the CEO needs to step down. I wasn't clear there. I was implying that this joint venture with XL was not handled properly, and the issues that have followed have not been unforeseeable based on the prior history of this game in other markets. I do think he needs to grab this bull by the horns. But this is where I was going. It certainly appears that he may not be able to, and that his hands are tied contractually. And if that's the case, that is where they failed in their due diligence. That would be a bad agreement, based on a gamble that didn't pay off as well as they'd have hoped. This has resulted in irreparable damage to Trion's credibility and now, questionable competency. Or at least brings the question of exactly what is their relationship with XL Games vs. what they had originally told the players they would have control over.
It is true that Trion is in an agreement with XL that has made it very difficult for them to deal with the issues that have occurred. However, it is also true that they are in what is basically a standard agreement for third party publishing. They could have negotiated some of the minor details, but the basics are standard for the industry. It is only because neither party (Trion or XL) have done a third party publishing deal in the west that neither party realized what this meant until now.
Buy what you want. Game's a mess. Evidence was there long before Trion picked it up.
Its a mess in many peoples opinions. Including my own. But there are also, still a fair number of people playing it.
Not an issue here of whether you or I think the game is screwed up. Its an issue of whether it is screwed up enough to warrant company action against the CEO.
Maybe but you haven't haven't provided any smoking gun, other than your opinion and an unfounded allegation, in your argument.
OK, Now I see what you mean. I really wasn't trying to imply that the CEO needs to step down. I wasn't clear there. I was implying that this joint venture with XL was not handled properly, and the issues that have followed have not been unforeseeable based on the prior history of this game in other markets. I do think he needs to grab this bull by the horns. But this is where I was going. It certainly appears that he may not be able to, and that his hands are tied contractually. And if that's the case, that is where they failed in their due diligence. That would be a bad agreement, based on a gamble that didn't pay off as well as they'd have hoped. This has resulted in irreparable damage to Trion's credibility and now, questionable competency. Or at least brings the question of exactly what is their relationship with XL Games vs. what they had originally told the players they would have control over.
Thanks for the explanation.
I agree it is difficult to assess what their motivations were when bringing this game to the West. Its possible they could have foreseen that there would be issues but decided to blindly go ahead knowing there was money to be made.
In the end I am just sorry, as Mcrippen said, that this game wasn't really given a fair chance to succeed here. It seemed to have a lot of positives going for it.
The gaming industry is getting too complicated these days.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Originally posted by angerbeaver They are making money with Archeage, why would they want him to step down? Reputation doesn't hurt that badly nowadays it seems so even if Archeage crashes and burns it won't matter as long as Trions bank account grows.
Right, when we live in the age where a major dealer in company's stock is brand value and recognition, bad reputation or PR is completely irrelevant.
OK, Now I see what you mean. I really wasn't trying to imply that the CEO needs to step down. I wasn't clear there. I was implying that this joint venture with XL was not handled properly, and the issues that have followed have not been unforeseeable based on the prior history of this game in other markets. I do think he needs to grab this bull by the horns. But this is where I was going. It certainly appears that he may not be able to, and that his hands are tied contractually. And if that's the case, that is where they failed in their due diligence. That would be a bad agreement, based on a gamble that didn't pay off as well as they'd have hoped. This has resulted in irreparable damage to Trion's credibility and now, questionable competency. Or at least brings the question of exactly what is their relationship with XL Games vs. what they had originally told the players they would have control over.
It is true that Trion is in an agreement with XL that has made it very difficult for them to deal with the issues that have occurred. However, it is also true that they are in what is basically a standard agreement for third party publishing. They could have negotiated some of the minor details, but the basics are standard for the industry. It is only because neither party (Trion or XL) have done a third party publishing deal in the west that neither party realized what this meant until now.
I am talking about how Trion lead players to believe they had more control then they do. So it may have been a standard agreement, but what is standard? When they said they would have control over the cash shop, what did that mean?
Buy what you want. Game's a mess. Evidence was there long before Trion picked it up.
Its a mess in many peoples opinions. Including my own. But there are also, still a fair number of people playing it.
Not an issue here of whether you or I think the game is screwed up. Its an issue of whether it is screwed up enough to warrant company action against the CEO.
Maybe but you haven't haven't provided any smoking gun, other than your opinion and an unfounded allegation, in your argument.
OK, Now I see what you mean. I really wasn't trying to imply that the CEO needs to step down. I wasn't clear there. I was implying that this joint venture with XL was not handled properly, and the issues that have followed have not been unforeseeable based on the prior history of this game in other markets. I do think he needs to grab this bull by the horns. But this is where I was going. It certainly appears that he may not be able to, and that his hands are tied contractually. And if that's the case, that is where they failed in their due diligence. That would be a bad agreement, based on a gamble that didn't pay off as well as they'd have hoped. This has resulted in irreparable damage to Trion's credibility and now, questionable competency. Or at least brings the question of exactly what is their relationship with XL Games vs. what they had originally told the players they would have control over.
Thanks for the explanation.
I agree it is difficult to assess what their motivations were when bringing this game to the West. Its possible they could have foreseen that there would be issues but decided to blindly go ahead knowing there was money to be made.
In the end I am just sorry, as Mcrippen said, that this game wasn't really given a fair chance to succeed here. It seemed to have a lot of positives going for it.
The gaming industry is getting too complicated these days.
OK, Now I see what you mean. I really wasn't trying to imply that the CEO needs to step down. I wasn't clear there. I was implying that this joint venture with XL was not handled properly, and the issues that have followed have not been unforeseeable based on the prior history of this game in other markets. I do think he needs to grab this bull by the horns. But this is where I was going. It certainly appears that he may not be able to, and that his hands are tied contractually. And if that's the case, that is where they failed in their due diligence. That would be a bad agreement, based on a gamble that didn't pay off as well as they'd have hoped. This has resulted in irreparable damage to Trion's credibility and now, questionable competency. Or at least brings the question of exactly what is their relationship with XL Games vs. what they had originally told the players they would have control over.
It is true that Trion is in an agreement with XL that has made it very difficult for them to deal with the issues that have occurred. However, it is also true that they are in what is basically a standard agreement for third party publishing. They could have negotiated some of the minor details, but the basics are standard for the industry. It is only because neither party (Trion or XL) have done a third party publishing deal in the west that neither party realized what this meant until now.
I am talking about how Trion lead players to believe they had more control then they do. So it may have been a standard agreement, but what is standard? When they said they would have control over the cash shop, what did that mean?
They do have a LOT of control over the cash shop. Sales and marketing is one of the tasks clearly allocated to the publisher in a third party publishing deal. XL has to decide what is available, and how it works in game... but Trion has to market and sell the item.
In this instance, think of them as Steam... who lists products made by other companies in their market. The developer sets the base price, but Steam has sales and promotions, can remove products that are problems, and can give refunds, etc. This is the type of control that Trion has.
As for control, as Henry Ford said; 'You can have any color you want, as long as it is black.'
OK, Now I see what you mean. I really wasn't trying to imply that the CEO needs to step down. I wasn't clear there. I was implying that this joint venture with XL was not handled properly, and the issues that have followed have not been unforeseeable based on the prior history of this game in other markets. I do think he needs to grab this bull by the horns. But this is where I was going. It certainly appears that he may not be able to, and that his hands are tied contractually. And if that's the case, that is where they failed in their due diligence. That would be a bad agreement, based on a gamble that didn't pay off as well as they'd have hoped. This has resulted in irreparable damage to Trion's credibility and now, questionable competency. Or at least brings the question of exactly what is their relationship with XL Games vs. what they had originally told the players they would have control over.
It is true that Trion is in an agreement with XL that has made it very difficult for them to deal with the issues that have occurred. However, it is also true that they are in what is basically a standard agreement for third party publishing. They could have negotiated some of the minor details, but the basics are standard for the industry. It is only because neither party (Trion or XL) have done a third party publishing deal in the west that neither party realized what this meant until now.
I am talking about how Trion lead players to believe they had more control then they do. So it may have been a standard agreement, but what is standard? When they said they would have control over the cash shop, what did that mean?
They do have a LOT of control over the cash shop. Sales and marketing is one of the tasks clearly allocated to the publisher in a third party publishing deal. XL has to decide what is available, and how it works in game... but Trion has to market and sell the item. In this instance, think of them as Steam... who lists products made by other companies in their market. The developer sets the base price, but Steam has sales and promotions, can remove products that are problems, and can give refunds, etc. This is the type of control that Trion has.
As for control, as Henry Ford said; 'You can have any color you want, as long as it is black.'
My favorite is an old Dennis the Menace episode (the best ones with Jay North as Dennis and not the fake, phony ones that came later) where he is selling all you can drink lemonade for 5 cents. Margaret comes buy and starts drinking and he grabs the cup and says "Oh, no, that is all you can drink !"
"The Rift team at Trion Worlds already experienced some losses in the past few months, and now executive producer Scott Hartsman is stepping down."
But (unfortunately), apparently, he came back. I wonder if there's some limit on how many times a CEO can step down before they kick him down there stairs?
Hartsman was never a CEO before he was an executive producer for Rift.
He came back as a CEO when Lars Butler stepped down - this is his first gig as a CEO of any company.
Man I gotta get one of those jobs where you fail and they give you a better paying job later.
I imagine whales don't give a crap about PR. Pay-to-win is actually a GOOD thing for them too, anyways. (consider that whales make up the majority of an F2P games' income if the game is pursuing the whaling strategy)
Where they might actually care is exploits where people get the same power as them for free. Even then, that likely won't stop them from trying and paying for other Trion games. Trion can always blame XLGames for the shoddy coding anyways.
There is no blaming XL - they are responsible for AAs server and client code 100%, that's not blaming thats a fact.
Look at Trions own games vs AA in terms of shoddy code and exploits - day and night difference.
As far as OP goes - CEOs are judged on financial performance by the board of directors- not forum posts - AA is a cash cow, Trion covered all localization costs back in Alpha via pack sales.
And who manages the cash shop which has been one of the worst in any MMO to date? The servers that can't stay up? Who decides when to put in certain features like intorducing Hasla weapons 2 years too soon? TRION does. Who runs support for the game and takes 30+ days to answer a ticket? TRION does. Who accepts a deal to manage a game they had no developer rights to? TRION did. So maybe you should just stop defending Trion, because at this point it is laughable when you do.
I had a quest bug where I could not get the jury duty quest even though I had zero infamy and committed no crimes. I put a ticket in and a month later finally got an answer back amounting to "sorry, but we didn't develop the game and can't fix that, we will forward the bug report to XL Games." Seriously? Really? Who does this? I have been playing MMOs since UO and have never encountered so much BS as I did the few months of the Archeage debacle. This game is an MMO catastrophe, you and a few of your friends still playing it are the only ones who don't get it.
As for Trion's record, they started out awesome with Rift but have run that game into the ground the past year or two. Poor management, period. Defiance just sucks so I won't even go there.
Comments
I agree, I think this was the biggest mistake from a player standpoint.
A competitive game should not have a marketplace that provides P2W advantages. Even if they are grey areas. B2P or sub would have solved many problems.
However that type of mistakes affect players, more than CEO's. Failure to put dollars on the bottom line affects CEO's.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
"Basement Executive" has WIN all over it. Well done, sir, well done.
I make spreadsheets at work - I don't want to make them for the games I play.
Yeah, totally baseless. There is no evidence of a scew-up whatsoever.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Res_ipsa_loquitur
Nope can't really buy that. Nice try though.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
I just had an orgasm when I ready your reply. Well said, and perfectly relevant. You are 100% correct. The guy above you will be eating cold food, driving an unreliable car, and waiting pleasantly on hold for 2 hours, for the rest of his life. Right?? Unlikely, hell be the first one to complain when his hot flapa chino latte is cold at Starbucks.
Buy what you want. Game's a mess. Evidence was there long before Trion picked it up.
Totally.
P.S. - A Trion thread with DMKano no f'in way!!!!
Its a mess in many peoples opinions. Including my own. But there are also, still a fair number of people playing it.
Not an issue here of whether you or I think the game is screwed up. Its an issue of whether it is screwed up enough to warrant company action against the CEO.
Maybe but you haven't haven't provided any smoking gun, other than your opinion and an unfounded allegation, in your argument.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Free to play = content updates for the cash shop. Buy to play = content updates for the cash shop.
Subscription = Actual content updates!
Exactly.
I am constantly amazed how everyone here knows fucking everything about everything.
Time to go play a game.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
It is true that the Executive Staff (not just the CEO) will have to explain the disaster that is ArcheAge to their board. The reality is that they will not have to explain all of the problems that have occurred... they will have to explain why they didn't foresee them. Trion is not the first company that has tried to do third party publishing (and will not be the last). Many companies (some much larger, with more experience) have tried and failed with this business model. The only big mistake that Trion has made was to believe that they would be able to do better than all of the other failures.... without actually doing anything different. The executive team made the decision to go into third party publishing, believing that they would not fail like most everyone else, because they were just that good (not that they were doing anything different).
OK, Now I see what you mean. I really wasn't trying to imply that the CEO needs to step down. I wasn't clear there. I was implying that this joint venture with XL was not handled properly, and the issues that have followed have not been unforeseeable based on the prior history of this game in other markets. I do think he needs to grab this bull by the horns. But this is where I was going. It certainly appears that he may not be able to, and that his hands are tied contractually. And if that's the case, that is where they failed in their due diligence. That would be a bad agreement, based on a gamble that didn't pay off as well as they'd have hoped. This has resulted in irreparable damage to Trion's credibility and now, questionable competency. Or at least brings the question of exactly what is their relationship with XL Games vs. what they had originally told the players they would have control over.
It is true that Trion is in an agreement with XL that has made it very difficult for them to deal with the issues that have occurred. However, it is also true that they are in what is basically a standard agreement for third party publishing. They could have negotiated some of the minor details, but the basics are standard for the industry. It is only because neither party (Trion or XL) have done a third party publishing deal in the west that neither party realized what this meant until now.
Thanks for the explanation.
I agree it is difficult to assess what their motivations were when bringing this game to the West. Its possible they could have foreseen that there would be issues but decided to blindly go ahead knowing there was money to be made.
In the end I am just sorry, as Mcrippen said, that this game wasn't really given a fair chance to succeed here. It seemed to have a lot of positives going for it.
The gaming industry is getting too complicated these days.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
And yet in the end they ended up refunding them faster than they sold them. Guess that one doesn't count so much huh?
Right, when we live in the age where a major dealer in company's stock is brand value and recognition, bad reputation or PR is completely irrelevant.
I am talking about how Trion lead players to believe they had more control then they do. So it may have been a standard agreement, but what is standard? When they said they would have control over the cash shop, what did that mean?
This game is "squandered potential".
They do have a LOT of control over the cash shop. Sales and marketing is one of the tasks clearly allocated to the publisher in a third party publishing deal. XL has to decide what is available, and how it works in game... but Trion has to market and sell the item.
In this instance, think of them as Steam... who lists products made by other companies in their market. The developer sets the base price, but Steam has sales and promotions, can remove products that are problems, and can give refunds, etc. This is the type of control that Trion has.
As for control, as Henry Ford said; 'You can have any color you want, as long as it is black.'
My favorite is an old Dennis the Menace episode (the best ones with Jay North as Dennis and not the fake, phony ones that came later) where he is selling all you can drink lemonade for 5 cents. Margaret comes buy and starts drinking and he grabs the cup and says "Oh, no, that is all you can drink !"
Man I gotta get one of those jobs where you fail and they give you a better paying job later.
And who manages the cash shop which has been one of the worst in any MMO to date? The servers that can't stay up? Who decides when to put in certain features like intorducing Hasla weapons 2 years too soon? TRION does. Who runs support for the game and takes 30+ days to answer a ticket? TRION does. Who accepts a deal to manage a game they had no developer rights to? TRION did. So maybe you should just stop defending Trion, because at this point it is laughable when you do.
I had a quest bug where I could not get the jury duty quest even though I had zero infamy and committed no crimes. I put a ticket in and a month later finally got an answer back amounting to "sorry, but we didn't develop the game and can't fix that, we will forward the bug report to XL Games." Seriously? Really? Who does this? I have been playing MMOs since UO and have never encountered so much BS as I did the few months of the Archeage debacle. This game is an MMO catastrophe, you and a few of your friends still playing it are the only ones who don't get it.
As for Trion's record, they started out awesome with Rift but have run that game into the ground the past year or two. Poor management, period. Defiance just sucks so I won't even go there.