Are knives a bad thing? They cut people and make them bleed. People die everyday to knife wounds.
Of course the modern world as we know it would not exist without the invention of the knife ...
Crowd funding is a things. Its not a good thing or a bad thing. It is a thing with its ups and downs. Seriously people whining about it are basically saying "I am a fool who is easily parted with my money and/or belongings and this new thing has created another way for that to happen! It must be evil because I am foolish."
Caveat Emptor. And yes you are a "buyer". This is essentially like buying a "futures" contract on a commodity(although not the same by any means). If you were to buy a futures contract for Gold on the COMEX there is absolutely no guarantee you can actually get real physical gold. The fine print of the contract states that COMEX can settle for the current cash value at any time. You are never guarantee any amount of of the "thing" you may think you are buying. Additionally most actual stuff for the item itself is done in the Forwards market not the Futures.
Crowd funding is actually not much different in any real way than the current markets (which are vulnerable to all the same critques). Some of these markets are quite crooked really, I used the gold futures market above because its extremely crooked. Most commodities do not work that way. When you look at the gold and silver ETFs they are clearly purposely diconnected from the actual physical market of the commodity, but other commidity markets, like say potatoe futures, are not. Most people do not even realize the fine print of the contracts they are buying.
Some people will tell you crowd funding is not investing like in a stock but this is not entirely true. This completely depends on the nature of what the project promises to you. If you pay $30 at the inception for something you believe correctly would be sellable for $60 then you have made double your money. This is exactly what you do with a commodity contract in the current markets.
Now not all crowd funding things work this way. Many are basically are just pre-orders for a game. But they may start to work this way if they seriously want to attract attention. Again this is how the current markets work. You offer investors a chance to leverage something in exchange for seed money. If you had an already existing very profitable thing you would not bother with loss from the leverage.
But there are some crowd funding things that DO work this way, generally these tend to be more like physical gadgets. Some target early adopters but I have seen some that offer a $30 deal that they will sell for $40 later on. Thus if you sell yours "in box" for $35 you can concievably make some profit. Obviously this would need to be in bulk to make real money on it. Obviously a major difference here with current conventional market is nothing is standardized and you have to do all the footwork.
But seriously crowd funding is just like current markets in many ways, when you take it down to the nitty gritty. In fact it is essentially less crooked than some current ETFs (Electronically Traded Funds) such as the GLD or SLV which are under no real legal obligation to provide what they purport to be "selling". The only reason they ever need to "deliver" what they claim they are about is public confidence. They can settle any contract at any time in a cash equivalent that they determine. They being the COMEX and its attendant banks(bullion banks who warehouse the commodity). Any contract can become zero in value, even commidity contracts. Just like crowd funding things that never make something. Publically traded companies pop up everyday whose sole purpose is to take the money and run. The SEC is supposed to do something about that and investigate but they don't do that much really, at least not anymore.
I can make a very good argument that those of you involved in the current financial markets are actually greater fools than many people involved in crowd funding ventures. You can claim you may never get something from crowd funding, but the same is true there yet decent crowd funding projects are almost always fairly straightforward and don't do various BS you see in financial markets.
You guys do realize that you don't actually own your stocks ,securities etc, right? Most people using a broker have their stocks etc held "in street name".
Crowd funding has created my fave games and brought back the genre which made bioware famous after they ditched it to go in a more casual direction.
Without crowdfunding, I wouldn't have wasteland 2, divinity original sin, x com unknown and would not be able to buy the new pillars of eternity game or grim dawn to name but 2 more games.
Tbh I have missed games that have this sort of depth for 9 years till crowd funding became mainstream and now I have enough complex, adult, deep games to keep me coccupied whenever I want.
So I am all for crowd funding.
I agree with what you are saying in principal, but I remain unconvinced that crowd funding is really a viable thing for a full featured MMORPG except in very rare cases, such as SC and perhaps CU and a one or two more.
Someone comes along and wants to build a full featured MMORPG for under $20M and I want to know if they plan on pulling a rabbit out of a hat next.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
This is a discussion, but I will present my argument as to why it is not: -
1) As neither a charity or a firm there is no legal recourse whatsoever for crowd funders for unfinished, buggy, or abortive projects.
2) These companies get to pocket every bit of profit they make off of your hard earned cash. All of it. If this were a manufacturer of vacuum cleaners would you feel okay about it? They rely upon emotive arguments and meaningless electronic guff to take your cash and skip to the bank laughing without taking any risk whatsoever.
3) The likes of Kickstarter skim 5% off all successfully funded projects but absolve themselves of any responsibility to check the viability of these projects.
So I will leave it at that. Please share your opinions.
It is good for what it is for.
It is not an investment. If you treat it as one it will get ugly.
Only publisher trolls who want to maintain their greedy claws on developers are bashing crowdfunding and spew their hate on it.
They have a vested interest in badmouthing crowdfund campaigns but THEY will go the way of the Dodo, die out. Become obsolete. Go bankrupt. Become unnecessary, like VHS video or Blockbuster rental stores and beeping dial-up modems. YOU ARE DONE AND YOU KNOW IT.
So you think it is wrong to call for proper regulation of a sector that is currently entirely unregulated?
I say yes - keeping the government out of it, that is a great thing. Sure there are scammers, but there is abuse in charity too - regulations only benefit the regulators in the end. That's what I love about crowd funding - it's pure and free, regulations would stifle it.
There is always a balance.... Letting the pendulum swing too far either way... is a bad thing.
Only publisher trolls who want to maintain their greedy claws on developers are bashing crowdfunding and spew their hate on it.
They have a vested interest in badmouthing crowdfund campaigns but THEY will go the way of the Dodo, die out. Become obsolete. Go bankrupt. Become unnecessary, like VHS video or Blockbuster rental stores and beeping dial-up modems. YOU ARE DONE AND YOU KNOW IT.
So you think it is wrong to call for proper regulation of a sector that is currently entirely unregulated?
I say yes - keeping the government out of it, that is a great thing. Sure there are scammers, but there is abuse in charity too - regulations only benefit the regulators in the end. That's what I love about crowd funding - it's pure and free, regulations would stifle it.
Yes, people always want to keep the government out of it....until things don't go their way...
Given the sheer number of green-light games that I've "purchased" that have never been updated or fully released, I'd say no. Not for this scale. Crowd funding wasn't supposed to work this way, originally, IIRC. Some good things have come of this system, but most of them are relatively small projects. There have also been numerous scams, back fired attempts, and failures (expected).
The real measure of whether or not such large-scale crowd-funded projects are actually successful has yet to be seen. Every week I read on MMORPG.com of another game that's looking to start crowd-funding that seems to promise the moon with a unicorn on it. Haven't we learned, that such a thing doesn't exist yet? Star Citizen is likely the biggest culprit I've seen to-date, where it seems like every feature, possible outcome, suggestion, and idea is CONFIRMED and then given an additional stretch-goal to fulfill it's ever-growing list of promises.
We've nearly reached the point, where ... If I were to "back" each project that has been posted on MMORPG.com, I'm sure I would have "backed" more games than I've "purchased" at release this year. My biggest problem with "backing" is that it entirely removes the incentive someone has to actually create the end-product promised, especially on larger projects. It's like being given full raid-gear upon starting an MMO, all you have to do is promise to level up to 50 and you can raid with it! It makes no logical sense, to me. It would make more sense if the money was held/distributed until certain milestones were reached. In the event that they aren't, the remainder is refunded to the backers. No harm, no foul. It gives incentive for the developer to actually work on the project, rather than taking the money and then working as slowly and easily as possible to create something that would be completely obsolete before it was close to release.
I think crowd funding is a good thing, overall. Especially for small projects for developers, entrepreneurs, inventors, and thinkers to bring their ideas to the table, prove a working concept, expand their resume and portfolio, and to show the industry something new. I don't think they're a good thing for large-scale projects of established industry "veterans" (Chris Roberts, Smedly, etc.) to create something that they're ultimately looking to make large profits off of (Don't fool yourself, it's their ultimate goal).
If these larger projects fail to deliver or even fail to meet the overwhelming hype-train that is spawned over such "revolutionary" (overwhelming) features, I fear that it could be a severe death-blow to the crowd funding that IS good. It could also mean larger companies won't entertain the idea of trying to create the same (or similar) concept if it isn't overwhelmingly successful.
Originally posted by DocBrody "Broken Age" - fantastic game, crowdfunded"Star Citizen" - fantastic game crowdfunded"Repopulation" - fantastic game, crowdfunded"Divinity Sin" - fantastic game, crowdfundedmany more to come, e.g. "Satellite Reign"Only publisher trolls who want to maintain their greedy claws on developers are bashing crowdfunding and spew their hate on it.They have a vested interest in badmouthing crowdfund campaigns but THEY will go the way of the Dodo, die out. Become obsolete. Go bankrupt. Become unnecessary, like VHS video or Blockbuster rental stores and beeping dial-up modems. YOU ARE DONE AND YOU KNOW IT.
So you think it is wrong to call for proper regulation of a sector that is currently entirely unregulated?
I say yes - keeping the government out of it, that is a great thing.Sure there are scammers, but there is abuse in charity too - regulations only benefit the regulators in the end.That's what I love about crowd funding - it's pure and free, regulations would stifle it.
Agree with Kano here. The Government has no place here. Projects will STOP coming if they have a financial responsibility to their supporters. Why ask for $100,000 for something if you have to pay it back?
What this needs is "supporter education." Too many supporters think they are "investors." They are not. Not in any way. As long as supporters believe this to be true, we will get threads like this.
To quote for emphasis, from Nadia:
Originally posted by Nadia its a toollike any tool - there are uses and abuses
People too often forget this.
Don't want to gamble your money away? Do not become a supporter. Easy fix
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I'm no hardcore conservative by any means, but why do people think everything has to be regulated by the government? The OP says this is a discussion but then basically admits he thinks everyone who backs a crowd funding is an idiot.
Personally... I think the OP got hosed on something he backed and feels upset about that now.
Myself, I think it is a great thing. I have only backed one Kickstarter so far which was Shroud of the Avatar for $125. They really sold me on their passion and dedication to the project and I still see it with their constant updates. This game probably would have never gotten made without Kickstarter, so how is this a bad thing?
Only publisher trolls who want to maintain their greedy claws on developers are bashing crowdfunding and spew their hate on it.
They have a vested interest in badmouthing crowdfund campaigns but THEY will go the way of the Dodo, die out. Become obsolete. Go bankrupt. Become unnecessary, like VHS video or Blockbuster rental stores and beeping dial-up modems. YOU ARE DONE AND YOU KNOW IT.
Does any of the games you mentioned even exist or are you mediating dev speak here? I'm not related to any developer but still cannot stomach cultist propaganda.
Only publisher trolls who want to maintain their greedy claws on developers are bashing crowdfunding and spew their hate on it.
They have a vested interest in badmouthing crowdfund campaigns but THEY will go the way of the Dodo, die out. Become obsolete. Go bankrupt. Become unnecessary, like VHS video or Blockbuster rental stores and beeping dial-up modems. YOU ARE DONE AND YOU KNOW IT.
Does any of the games you mentioned even exist or are you mediating dev speak here? I'm not related to any developer but still cannot stomach cultist propaganda.
Really? I can hardly believe you just asked that question. Are you sure you are even on these forums? Or do you just travel around to all the forums that mention crowd funding and post to them randomly? I ask because if you have to question whether or not these games actually exist, it makes me wonder what rock you've had your head stuck under for the past couple years?
Oh, and I'll just tack on Pillars of Eternity, Shards Online, Torment: ToN, Hex, as a few that are approaching release and I'll tack on Banner Saga as one that is currently in release that has been a critical and commercial success to this point.
Only publisher trolls who want to maintain their greedy claws on developers are bashing crowdfunding and spew their hate on it.
They have a vested interest in badmouthing crowdfund campaigns but THEY will go the way of the Dodo, die out. Become obsolete. Go bankrupt. Become unnecessary, like VHS video or Blockbuster rental stores and beeping dial-up modems. YOU ARE DONE AND YOU KNOW IT.
Does any of the games you mentioned even exist or are you mediating dev speak here? I'm not related to any developer but still cannot stomach cultist propaganda.
Really? I can hardly believe you just asked that question. Are you sure you are even on these forums? Or do you just travel around to all the forums that mention crowd funding and post to them randomly? I ask because if you have to question whether or not these games actually exist, it makes me wonder what rock you've had your head stuck under for the past couple years?
Oh, and I'll just tack on Pillars of Eternity, Shards Online, Torment: ToN, Hex, as a few that are approaching release and I'll tack on Banner Saga as one that is currently in release that has been a critical and commercial success to this point.
I'm only familiar with one or two of those games, honestly. That have fully released. I'm not sure I'd call games that aren't even in alpha/beta or that are still in the concept process "critical and commercial success".
That's the problem I have with the crowdfunded hype train. "The game is a huge success, it's sold so well." When, in reality, there is no game to play yet.
Only publisher trolls who want to maintain their greedy claws on developers are bashing crowdfunding and spew their hate on it.
They have a vested interest in badmouthing crowdfund campaigns but THEY will go the way of the Dodo, die out. Become obsolete. Go bankrupt. Become unnecessary, like VHS video or Blockbuster rental stores and beeping dial-up modems. YOU ARE DONE AND YOU KNOW IT.
Does any of the games you mentioned even exist or are you mediating dev speak here? I'm not related to any developer but still cannot stomach cultist propaganda.
Really? I can hardly believe you just asked that question. Are you sure you are even on these forums? Or do you just travel around to all the forums that mention crowd funding and post to them randomly? I ask because if you have to question whether or not these games actually exist, it makes me wonder what rock you've had your head stuck under for the past couple years?
Oh, and I'll just tack on Pillars of Eternity, Shards Online, Torment: ToN, Hex, as a few that are approaching release and I'll tack on Banner Saga as one that is currently in release that has been a critical and commercial success to this point.
I'm only familiar with one or two of those games, honestly. That have fully released. I'm not sure I'd call games that aren't even in alpha/beta or that are still in the concept process "critical and commercial success".
That's the problem I have with the crowdfunded hype train. "The game is a huge success, it's sold so well." When, in reality, there is no game to play yet.
Specifically, Divinity: Original Sin, Banner Saga and Broken Age are all examples of released games which are highly successful. Wasteland 2 is another that I totally forgot about, but also sold well and was a critical success.
Fact is that a large majority of games through Crowd Funding get released. Browse my other KS posts on the forum, I provide actual, real, measured information somewhere. I just don't have the need to prove it again.
Only publisher trolls who want to maintain their greedy claws on developers are bashing crowdfunding and spew their hate on it.
They have a vested interest in badmouthing crowdfund campaigns but THEY will go the way of the Dodo, die out. Become obsolete. Go bankrupt. Become unnecessary, like VHS video or Blockbuster rental stores and beeping dial-up modems. YOU ARE DONE AND YOU KNOW IT.
Does any of the games you mentioned even exist or are you mediating dev speak here? I'm not related to any developer but still cannot stomach cultist propaganda.
Really? I can hardly believe you just asked that question. Are you sure you are even on these forums? Or do you just travel around to all the forums that mention crowd funding and post to them randomly? I ask because if you have to question whether or not these games actually exist, it makes me wonder what rock you've had your head stuck under for the past couple years?
Oh, and I'll just tack on Pillars of Eternity, Shards Online, Torment: ToN, Hex, as a few that are approaching release and I'll tack on Banner Saga as one that is currently in release that has been a critical and commercial success to this point.
I'm only familiar with one or two of those games, honestly. That have fully released. I'm not sure I'd call games that aren't even in alpha/beta or that are still in the concept process "critical and commercial success".
That's the problem I have with the crowdfunded hype train. "The game is a huge success, it's sold so well." When, in reality, there is no game to play yet.
Specifically, Divinity: Original Sin, Banner Saga and Broken Age are all examples of released games which are highly successful. Wasteland 2 is another that I totally forgot about, but also sold well and was a critical success.
Fact is that a large majority of games through Crowd Funding get released. Browse my other KS posts on the forum, I provide actual, real, measured information somewhere. I just don't have the need to prove it again.
You misunderstand my point. You listed 9 games. Only 4 of which have seen a successful launch. You touted the others as being wildly successful games, when they aren't even released yet.
"Fact is" that based on my own experience, coupled with articles I've read, crowd funded games or early-acess/green-light games doesn't usually fully release. A few, yes, have released. However ...
You misunderstand my point. You listed 9 games. Only 4 of which have seen a successful launch. You touted the others as being wildly successful games, when they aren't even released yet.
"Fact is" that based on my own experience, coupled with articles I've read, crowd funded games or early-acess/green-light games doesn't usually fully release. A few, yes, have released. However ...
Steam Early Access and Kickstarter are seperate things.
As a general rule, no name developers are the ones most prone to not fully release their titles and abuse the whole ordeal.
Kickstarter lead to Divinity: Original Sin, Faster Than Light, Wasteland 2, The Banner Saga. 4 games that would never have seen the dev from any AAA publisher.
All of them are amazing too. While Kickstarter and Crowdfunding arent perfect, they allow me to play games I would never have gotten to experience otherwise, and The Repopulation is looking promising.
You misunderstand my point. You listed 9 games. Only 4 of which have seen a successful launch. You touted the others as being wildly successful games, when they aren't even released yet.
"Fact is" that based on my own experience, coupled with articles I've read, crowd funded games or early-acess/green-light games doesn't usually fully release. A few, yes, have released. However ...
Steam Early Access and Kickstarter are seperate things.
As a general rule, no name developers are the ones most prone to not fully release their titles and abuse the whole ordeal.
Kickstarter lead to Divinity: Original Sin, Faster Than Light, Wasteland 2, The Banner Saga. 4 games that would never have seen the dev from any AAA publisher.
All of them are amazing too. While Kickstarter and Crowdfunding arent perfect, they allow me to play games I would never have gotten to experience otherwise, and The Repopulation is looking promising.
The question isn't about Kickstarter, it's about crowd funding. Steam early access/green light are also forms of "crowd funding". Like it or not.
Only publisher trolls who want to maintain their greedy claws on developers are bashing crowdfunding and spew their hate on it.
They have a vested interest in badmouthing crowdfund campaigns but THEY will go the way of the Dodo, die out. Become obsolete. Go bankrupt. Become unnecessary, like VHS video or Blockbuster rental stores and beeping dial-up modems. YOU ARE DONE AND YOU KNOW IT.
Does any of the games you mentioned even exist or are you mediating dev speak here? I'm not related to any developer but still cannot stomach cultist propaganda.
Really? I can hardly believe you just asked that question. Are you sure you are even on these forums? Or do you just travel around to all the forums that mention crowd funding and post to them randomly? I ask because if you have to question whether or not these games actually exist, it makes me wonder what rock you've had your head stuck under for the past couple years?
Oh, and I'll just tack on Pillars of Eternity, Shards Online, Torment: ToN, Hex, as a few that are approaching release and I'll tack on Banner Saga as one that is currently in release that has been a critical and commercial success to this point.
I'm only familiar with one or two of those games, honestly. That have fully released. I'm not sure I'd call games that aren't even in alpha/beta or that are still in the concept process "critical and commercial success".
That's the problem I have with the crowdfunded hype train. "The game is a huge success, it's sold so well." When, in reality, there is no game to play yet.
Specifically, Divinity: Original Sin, Banner Saga and Broken Age are all examples of released games which are highly successful. Wasteland 2 is another that I totally forgot about, but also sold well and was a critical success.
Fact is that a large majority of games through Crowd Funding get released. Browse my other KS posts on the forum, I provide actual, real, measured information somewhere. I just don't have the need to prove it again.
You misunderstand my point. You listed 9 games. Only 4 of which have seen a successful launch. You touted the others as being wildly successful games, when they aren't even released yet.
"Fact is" that based on my own experience, coupled with articles I've read, crowd funded games or early-acess/green-light games doesn't usually fully release. A few, yes, have released. However ...
Well, as far as Kickstarter is concerned, when I did my original review of games, I only found a handful which were actually, officially, cancelled. It's really difficult to gauge a game as a success until it is released, but we also can't class that as a failure. It's simply in development.
Actually, here you go, I found something a little more definitive. Here's a reddit list of funded, cancelled games
The list is 21 long. The number of VIDEO GAME projects found through Wikipedia is around 350, but it's also touted as an incomplete list. However, without going any further into the numbers, we can see that the number of video game projects funded far outweighs the number which fail.
Only publisher trolls who want to maintain their greedy claws on developers are bashing crowdfunding and spew their hate on it.
They have a vested interest in badmouthing crowdfund campaigns but THEY will go the way of the Dodo, die out. Become obsolete. Go bankrupt. Become unnecessary, like VHS video or Blockbuster rental stores and beeping dial-up modems. YOU ARE DONE AND YOU KNOW IT.
Does any of the games you mentioned even exist or are you mediating dev speak here? I'm not related to any developer but still cannot stomach cultist propaganda.
Really? I can hardly believe you just asked that question. Are you sure you are even on these forums? Or do you just travel around to all the forums that mention crowd funding and post to them randomly? I ask because if you have to question whether or not these games actually exist, it makes me wonder what rock you've had your head stuck under for the past couple years?
Oh, and I'll just tack on Pillars of Eternity, Shards Online, Torment: ToN, Hex, as a few that are approaching release and I'll tack on Banner Saga as one that is currently in release that has been a critical and commercial success to this point.
I'm only familiar with one or two of those games, honestly. That have fully released. I'm not sure I'd call games that aren't even in alpha/beta or that are still in the concept process "critical and commercial success".
That's the problem I have with the crowdfunded hype train. "The game is a huge success, it's sold so well." When, in reality, there is no game to play yet.
Specifically, Divinity: Original Sin, Banner Saga and Broken Age are all examples of released games which are highly successful. Wasteland 2 is another that I totally forgot about, but also sold well and was a critical success.
Fact is that a large majority of games through Crowd Funding get released. Browse my other KS posts on the forum, I provide actual, real, measured information somewhere. I just don't have the need to prove it again.
You misunderstand my point. You listed 9 games. Only 4 of which have seen a successful launch. You touted the others as being wildly successful games, when they aren't even released yet.
"Fact is" that based on my own experience, coupled with articles I've read, crowd funded games or early-acess/green-light games doesn't usually fully release. A few, yes, have released. However ...
Well, as far as Kickstarter is concerned, when I did my original review of games, I only found a handful which were actually, officially, cancelled. It's really difficult to gauge a game as a success until it is released, but we also can't class that as a failure. It's simply in development.
Actually, here you go, I found something a little more definitive. Here's a reddit list of funded, cancelled games
The list is 21 long. The number of VIDEO GAME projects found through Wikipedia is around 350, but it's also touted as an incomplete list. However, without going any further into the numbers, we can see that the number of video game projects funded far outweighs the number which fail.
Ah there goes that Crazy Canadian going and making sense again. CrazyKanuk gets it - and great job citing actual data instead of "my experience" - peoples experience don't mean jack shit - mined data that shows actual results will trump anyones opinion every time (psychology studies have shown time and again human perception and memory are flawed). What I see in this thread is a bunch of bashing based on misleading data or an incorrect perception of actual data or opinions, going against people with actual data. The only suckers in Crowdfunding are the Crack (oh sorry I mean Game) addicts that can't make proper choices or good decisions. No one forces anyone to buy into crowdfunding - if you don't like it stay away from it. However, actual data shows it's done WAY TOO MUCH GOOD for it to go away. Lastly, the OP's post is very ignorant IMO - anyone who wants to take away public services based on flawed perception or even opinion (I dont agree with this) are real Jerk Faces IMO - let people be and do their thing - it doesn't hurt you as long as you don't have a history of making poor choices - no need to champion causes of discourse that go nowhere except to hurt others.
It is also silly to look at a Steam Game in early access after a year and call it "failed". If it takes a team of 40 devs 2 years to make an RPG, with a $100k budget, doesn't it make a little sense to assume that for an Indie studio it is going to take twice as long? Checking back on a Greenlit game in 1 year is just completely ignorant to the DEV process. Check back in on these studios after 2-3 years in Early Access - if they haven't released or gotten closer to release by then, then you know something might be wrong.
Only publisher trolls who want to maintain their greedy claws on developers are bashing crowdfunding and spew their hate on it.
They have a vested interest in badmouthing crowdfund campaigns but THEY will go the way of the Dodo, die out. Become obsolete. Go bankrupt. Become unnecessary, like VHS video or Blockbuster rental stores and beeping dial-up modems. YOU ARE DONE AND YOU KNOW IT.
Only ONE of those games are fully delivered and qualify for judgement. (Divinity.)
Broken Age is still only half a game, with part two on the ToDo list.
The last two are alhpa or less at this point. You are not really making a strong case here at all that crowdfunding is helping delivering lots of good games.
Crowdfunding is perfectly fine to me. I don't care what people wish to do with their money. I would comment on whether I think it was wise or not, but ultimately, people are free to do what they will with the fruits of their labor.
I have only donated to one thing via crowdfunding. A band I enjoy that needed a new touring bus, but did not have the money to purchase it. By donating, they gave me a shirt and a CD with demo versions of some of their songs. I knew what I was getting if it was successfully funded. Which it was, and their bus looks SWEET! They got way more than they thought they would. And I will be doubly rewarded when I see that bus outside of the venue the next time they are around my town.
But with a video game, there are so many more variables and definitions of delivery of the product that I would not call it a wise use of my money. What is to stop Star Citizen from launching their game as is once it is funded, and calling it a day? They would have delivered a game, as unbalanced and buggy as can be, but a game nevertheless. The risk is too high for my money. But all power to those that want to donate. I'll buy a crowdfunded game when I know exactly what I am getting, and like what they have done.
I can fly higher than an aeroplane. And I have the voice of a thousand hurricanes. Hurt - Wars
Only publisher trolls who want to maintain their greedy claws on developers are bashing crowdfunding and spew their hate on it.
They have a vested interest in badmouthing crowdfund campaigns but THEY will go the way of the Dodo, die out. Become obsolete. Go bankrupt. Become unnecessary, like VHS video or Blockbuster rental stores and beeping dial-up modems. YOU ARE DONE AND YOU KNOW IT.
Does any of the games you mentioned even exist or are you mediating dev speak here? I'm not related to any developer but still cannot stomach cultist propaganda.
Really? I can hardly believe you just asked that question. Are you sure you are even on these forums? Or do you just travel around to all the forums that mention crowd funding and post to them randomly? I ask because if you have to question whether or not these games actually exist, it makes me wonder what rock you've had your head stuck under for the past couple years?
Oh, and I'll just tack on Pillars of Eternity, Shards Online, Torment: ToN, Hex, as a few that are approaching release and I'll tack on Banner Saga as one that is currently in release that has been a critical and commercial success to this point.
Cheers young acolyte and thanks for all those personal insults. My question still is - is there at least one playable and moderately popular crowd funded game? You losing your nerves indicate that I asked the right question.
Only publisher trolls who want to maintain their greedy claws on developers are bashing crowdfunding and spew their hate on it.
They have a vested interest in badmouthing crowdfund campaigns but THEY will go the way of the Dodo, die out. Become obsolete. Go bankrupt. Become unnecessary, like VHS video or Blockbuster rental stores and beeping dial-up modems. YOU ARE DONE AND YOU KNOW IT.
Does any of the games you mentioned even exist or are you mediating dev speak here? I'm not related to any developer but still cannot stomach cultist propaganda.
Really? I can hardly believe you just asked that question. Are you sure you are even on these forums? Or do you just travel around to all the forums that mention crowd funding and post to them randomly? I ask because if you have to question whether or not these games actually exist, it makes me wonder what rock you've had your head stuck under for the past couple years?
Oh, and I'll just tack on Pillars of Eternity, Shards Online, Torment: ToN, Hex, as a few that are approaching release and I'll tack on Banner Saga as one that is currently in release that has been a critical and commercial success to this point.
Cheers young acolyte and thanks for all those personal insults. My question still is - is there at least one playable and moderately popular crowd funded game? You losing your nerves indicate that I asked the right question.
Divinity: Original Sin is bigger. No, there is no Call of Duty crowd funded game. Will there ever be? I don't know. Many or all seem to be niche games, I think that's the main reason they turn to crowd funding in the first place.
Look back through the thread, though. I actually gave a reddit link showing 21 failed projects and another to a list (which is incomplete) of 350 video game projects funded through Kickstarter. Kickstarter "Games" category shows like 4500, but there are many physical products in that category too. It didn't break down video games specifically from what I saw. So the percentage of actual, physically cancelled projects is extremely low.
I don't think you asked the right question at all, actually. You basically said that any Kickstarter which doesn't show a physical game at this moment is completely invalidated and is, therefore, propaganda.
Comments
Excellent explanation!
/hi5 dude
SitH happens
I agree with what you are saying in principal, but I remain unconvinced that crowd funding is really a viable thing for a full featured MMORPG except in very rare cases, such as SC and perhaps CU and a one or two more.
Someone comes along and wants to build a full featured MMORPG for under $20M and I want to know if they plan on pulling a rabbit out of a hat next.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It is good for what it is for.
It is not an investment. If you treat it as one it will get ugly.
No such animal.
There is always a balance.... Letting the pendulum swing too far either way... is a bad thing.
Eh
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
They use to pay people to test the games. They were still released with issues.
Now people pay the companies to test the game. They are still released with issues.
Games use to start with an idea/concept, then you bought and played the game.
Now you buy the idea/concept, the game comes later.
To answer the title question:
It could be. It should be, but no, it isn't. Not in it's current state.
Yes, people always want to keep the government out of it....until things don't go their way...
Given the sheer number of green-light games that I've "purchased" that have never been updated or fully released, I'd say no. Not for this scale. Crowd funding wasn't supposed to work this way, originally, IIRC. Some good things have come of this system, but most of them are relatively small projects. There have also been numerous scams, back fired attempts, and failures (expected).
The real measure of whether or not such large-scale crowd-funded projects are actually successful has yet to be seen. Every week I read on MMORPG.com of another game that's looking to start crowd-funding that seems to promise the moon with a unicorn on it. Haven't we learned, that such a thing doesn't exist yet? Star Citizen is likely the biggest culprit I've seen to-date, where it seems like every feature, possible outcome, suggestion, and idea is CONFIRMED and then given an additional stretch-goal to fulfill it's ever-growing list of promises.
We've nearly reached the point, where ... If I were to "back" each project that has been posted on MMORPG.com, I'm sure I would have "backed" more games than I've "purchased" at release this year. My biggest problem with "backing" is that it entirely removes the incentive someone has to actually create the end-product promised, especially on larger projects. It's like being given full raid-gear upon starting an MMO, all you have to do is promise to level up to 50 and you can raid with it! It makes no logical sense, to me. It would make more sense if the money was held/distributed until certain milestones were reached. In the event that they aren't, the remainder is refunded to the backers. No harm, no foul. It gives incentive for the developer to actually work on the project, rather than taking the money and then working as slowly and easily as possible to create something that would be completely obsolete before it was close to release.
I think crowd funding is a good thing, overall. Especially for small projects for developers, entrepreneurs, inventors, and thinkers to bring their ideas to the table, prove a working concept, expand their resume and portfolio, and to show the industry something new. I don't think they're a good thing for large-scale projects of established industry "veterans" (Chris Roberts, Smedly, etc.) to create something that they're ultimately looking to make large profits off of (Don't fool yourself, it's their ultimate goal).
If these larger projects fail to deliver or even fail to meet the overwhelming hype-train that is spawned over such "revolutionary" (overwhelming) features, I fear that it could be a severe death-blow to the crowd funding that IS good. It could also mean larger companies won't entertain the idea of trying to create the same (or similar) concept if it isn't overwhelmingly successful.
What this needs is "supporter education." Too many supporters think they are "investors." They are not. Not in any way. As long as supporters believe this to be true, we will get threads like this.
To quote for emphasis, from Nadia:
People too often forget this.Don't want to gamble your money away? Do not become a supporter. Easy fix
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I'm no hardcore conservative by any means, but why do people think everything has to be regulated by the government? The OP says this is a discussion but then basically admits he thinks everyone who backs a crowd funding is an idiot.
Personally... I think the OP got hosed on something he backed and feels upset about that now.
Myself, I think it is a great thing. I have only backed one Kickstarter so far which was Shroud of the Avatar for $125. They really sold me on their passion and dedication to the project and I still see it with their constant updates. This game probably would have never gotten made without Kickstarter, so how is this a bad thing?
Does any of the games you mentioned even exist or are you mediating dev speak here? I'm not related to any developer but still cannot stomach cultist propaganda.
Really? I can hardly believe you just asked that question. Are you sure you are even on these forums? Or do you just travel around to all the forums that mention crowd funding and post to them randomly? I ask because if you have to question whether or not these games actually exist, it makes me wonder what rock you've had your head stuck under for the past couple years?
Oh, and I'll just tack on Pillars of Eternity, Shards Online, Torment: ToN, Hex, as a few that are approaching release and I'll tack on Banner Saga as one that is currently in release that has been a critical and commercial success to this point.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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I'm only familiar with one or two of those games, honestly. That have fully released. I'm not sure I'd call games that aren't even in alpha/beta or that are still in the concept process "critical and commercial success".
That's the problem I have with the crowdfunded hype train. "The game is a huge success, it's sold so well." When, in reality, there is no game to play yet.
Specifically, Divinity: Original Sin, Banner Saga and Broken Age are all examples of released games which are highly successful. Wasteland 2 is another that I totally forgot about, but also sold well and was a critical success.
Fact is that a large majority of games through Crowd Funding get released. Browse my other KS posts on the forum, I provide actual, real, measured information somewhere. I just don't have the need to prove it again.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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You misunderstand my point. You listed 9 games. Only 4 of which have seen a successful launch. You touted the others as being wildly successful games, when they aren't even released yet.
"Fact is" that based on my own experience, coupled with articles I've read, crowd funded games or early-acess/green-light games doesn't usually fully release. A few, yes, have released. However ...
http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/11/17/early-access-games-on-steam-usually-dont-see-full-release
Steam Early Access and Kickstarter are seperate things.
As a general rule, no name developers are the ones most prone to not fully release their titles and abuse the whole ordeal.
Kickstarter lead to Divinity: Original Sin, Faster Than Light, Wasteland 2, The Banner Saga. 4 games that would never have seen the dev from any AAA publisher.
All of them are amazing too. While Kickstarter and Crowdfunding arent perfect, they allow me to play games I would never have gotten to experience otherwise, and The Repopulation is looking promising.
another game recently released was Lords of Xulima
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/821/view/forums/thread/418864/Lords-of-Xulima-released.html
EQ2 fan sites
The question isn't about Kickstarter, it's about crowd funding. Steam early access/green light are also forms of "crowd funding". Like it or not.
Well, as far as Kickstarter is concerned, when I did my original review of games, I only found a handful which were actually, officially, cancelled. It's really difficult to gauge a game as a success until it is released, but we also can't class that as a failure. It's simply in development.
Actually, here you go, I found something a little more definitive. Here's a reddit list of funded, cancelled games
The list is 21 long. The number of VIDEO GAME projects found through Wikipedia is around 350, but it's also touted as an incomplete list. However, without going any further into the numbers, we can see that the number of video game projects funded far outweighs the number which fail.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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Ah there goes that Crazy Canadian going and making sense again.
CrazyKanuk gets it - and great job citing actual data instead of "my experience" - peoples experience don't mean jack shit - mined data that shows actual results will trump anyones opinion every time (psychology studies have shown time and again human perception and memory are flawed). What I see in this thread is a bunch of bashing based on misleading data or an incorrect perception of actual data or opinions, going against people with actual data. The only suckers in Crowdfunding are the Crack (oh sorry I mean Game) addicts that can't make proper choices or good decisions. No one forces anyone to buy into crowdfunding - if you don't like it stay away from it. However, actual data shows it's done WAY TOO MUCH GOOD for it to go away. Lastly, the OP's post is very ignorant IMO - anyone who wants to take away public services based on flawed perception or even opinion (I dont agree with this) are real Jerk Faces IMO - let people be and do their thing - it doesn't hurt you as long as you don't have a history of making poor choices - no need to champion causes of discourse that go nowhere except to hurt others.
It is also silly to look at a Steam Game in early access after a year and call it "failed". If it takes a team of 40 devs 2 years to make an RPG, with a $100k budget, doesn't it make a little sense to assume that for an Indie studio it is going to take twice as long? Checking back on a Greenlit game in 1 year is just completely ignorant to the DEV process. Check back in on these studios after 2-3 years in Early Access - if they haven't released or gotten closer to release by then, then you know something might be wrong.
Only ONE of those games are fully delivered and qualify for judgement. (Divinity.)
Broken Age is still only half a game, with part two on the ToDo list.
The last two are alhpa or less at this point. You are not really making a strong case here at all that crowdfunding is helping delivering lots of good games.
Crowdfunding is perfectly fine to me. I don't care what people wish to do with their money. I would comment on whether I think it was wise or not, but ultimately, people are free to do what they will with the fruits of their labor.
I have only donated to one thing via crowdfunding. A band I enjoy that needed a new touring bus, but did not have the money to purchase it. By donating, they gave me a shirt and a CD with demo versions of some of their songs. I knew what I was getting if it was successfully funded. Which it was, and their bus looks SWEET! They got way more than they thought they would. And I will be doubly rewarded when I see that bus outside of the venue the next time they are around my town.
But with a video game, there are so many more variables and definitions of delivery of the product that I would not call it a wise use of my money. What is to stop Star Citizen from launching their game as is once it is funded, and calling it a day? They would have delivered a game, as unbalanced and buggy as can be, but a game nevertheless. The risk is too high for my money. But all power to those that want to donate. I'll buy a crowdfunded game when I know exactly what I am getting, and like what they have done.
I can fly higher than an aeroplane.
And I have the voice of a thousand hurricanes.
Hurt - Wars
Cheers young acolyte and thanks for all those personal insults. My question still is - is there at least one playable and moderately popular crowd funded game? You losing your nerves indicate that I asked the right question.
Look back through the thread, though. I actually gave a reddit link showing 21 failed projects and another to a list (which is incomplete) of 350 video game projects funded through Kickstarter. Kickstarter "Games" category shows like 4500, but there are many physical products in that category too. It didn't break down video games specifically from what I saw. So the percentage of actual, physically cancelled projects is extremely low.
I don't think you asked the right question at all, actually. You basically said that any Kickstarter which doesn't show a physical game at this moment is completely invalidated and is, therefore, propaganda.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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