It's crappy, it makes everyone miserable, and few writers can pull it off without being cringeworthy or preachy.
We have enough issues that games present without turning to real-life.
The mage-templar conflict was complex and good enough on it's own, the krogan genopaghe was a good story arc, and the stormcloak rebellion was a multifaceted grey-vs-grey conflict without being an expy for Northern Ireland, Catalonia, or Scotland.
Some of you might think i'm pissed my political sensibilities were offended.
No, i'm pro-enviromentalism, but if one of the main conflicts of a fantasy RPG i'd play were the elves protesting because the dwarves were frakking a mountain, i'd be unwilling to buy the sequel.
I'm asexual, i think, but if a game i'd play had a suspiciously large number of caste "blanks", and asex was a political token parties used, yes, it'd be pushing an agenda.
And not everyone has your issues.
I'm from south-eastern Europe. Your gun control debate is irrelevant for me, and your "how many blacks and hispanics should we add to our game to represent our demographics" is moot and alien here.
And c'mon, my escapist media is becoming crappier because of this politisation.
I no longer read cracked due to it turning into gamergate-the website, instead of the facts&dick jokes based humour it was, cyanide& happiness has made it's minute long black comedy animations turn into 15 minute long humourless rants about religion and the fucking Republican Party, mashable forgot it was a tech news site and turned most of it's articles into "life hacks" and social issues, so i moved to techcrunch, only for even there, some moron to insist on adding articles on his take on gamergate and online harrasment.
Seriously, if you produce any form of media, stay with your niche. We will love it. We don't want to read your personal blog.
Unless you have some unique spin on it, your attempt at social commentary will likely be both ham-fisted and a dime-a-dozen.
For Bioware Montreal, including homosexual relationship would not be a political statement as it is highly accepted in the region the dev lives in. Probably more of a representation of the society that raised them.
I am not sure if that studio is responsible for DAI, but after playing 70hours of the game it certainly have Montreal vibes in it.
Originally posted by waveslayer I didnt read all the comments but for me its simple, I play games as an escape from the real world, I spend enough time in it, what little time I have to relax with a good RPG or MMoRPG I want nothing to do with politics, sex, relationships etc, so NO
A good RPG without politics, sex and relationships ? I don't think I ever saw one of those. You sure you didn't mean FPS ?
Let me see: Zelda, Diablo, Torchlight, Amalur, etc.
Depends on the game, just like movies. Some are fit for political statement, some are not. As for Dragon Age Inquisition it is clearly pushing a pro-feminist and pro-gay agenda, and hence why I am not touching it.
Originally posted by waveslayer I didnt read all the comments but for me its simple, I play games as an escape from the real world, I spend enough time in it, what little time I have to relax with a good RPG or MMoRPG I want nothing to do with politics, sex, relationships etc, so NO
A good RPG without politics, sex and relationships ? I don't think I ever saw one of those. You sure you didn't mean FPS ?
Let me see: Zelda, Diablo, Torchlight, Amalur, etc.
Well to me those all include relationship with other characters.
I don't see the problem with a game making any kind of political statement. If someone refuses to play a game because a character is gay, that says a lot about the person, not the dev studio. The world is becoming more and more liberal and open to different ways of thinking. Just because some people are stuck in a negative, racist, homophobic mindset, it shouldn't mean that devs shouldnt explore these ideas.
Gaming, for me, has always been about inclusion. Everyone can pick up a game and play it, no matter what category society places them in. Adding stronger female characters or homosexuals to a game is a good thing, it's not about changing minds, it's about educating the next generation to not be prejudice.
I don't see the problem with a game making any kind of political statement. If someone refuses to play a game because a character is gay, that says a lot about the person, not the dev studio. The world is becoming more and more liberal and open to different ways of thinking. Just because some people are stuck in a negative, racist, homophobic mindset, it shouldn't mean that devs shouldnt explore these ideas.
Gaming, for me, has always been about inclusion. Everyone can pick up a game and play it, no matter what category society places them in. Adding stronger female characters or homosexuals to a game is a good thing, it's not about changing minds, it's about educating the next generation to not be prejudice.
Nobody has any problem with "educating" someone *eyeroll*, people hate the gaming equivalent of frequent, crappy PSA's disguised as games.
Oh, and as a sidenote, enjoy your idea of generationally increasing liberalisation and tolerance.
History and counter-culture will turn it around soon.
I am someone that considers himself somewhat politically savy and a listner and sometime participant of political debate. However, do I want that to carry over into my favortie entertainment? NO. The problem with entertainment PRESENTING a political position is that there is no place to discuss and debate whether that position is valid or not. Instead, it would become a platform for whichever "side" to preach their message as they see fit. While I am all for the right of one to express their opinion, I am also of the opinion that ALL sides should have a chance to counter or agree. There are plenty of places where political message can be heard IF ONE CHOOSES. In an entertainment setting one usually expects to go for entertainment and not a political rally.
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT Playing: Skyrim Following: The Repopulation I want a Virtual World, not just a Game. ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
That is so true and why we need to keep it out of gaming.
Tend to agree with that, political or other extremist points of views that people try to promote via the media of a game, of whatever type, should at the very least be declared as such up front so that people aren't mislead into buying something they would rather not touch with a 10ft bargepole. If there is one thing that Gamergate highlighted, is just how many groups out there, are keen on promoting their own agenda's and the lengths they are willing to go to, in order to 'impose' their own point of view on things, however unhinged they might be
I wrote this article and I'd like to thank all of your for contributing to a civil, well thought out discussion. Agree or disagree, it's good to see people talking instead of shouting each other down :-)
I would like to respond to one person in particular, just to clarify a bit.
Originally posted by JJ82
Thanks for your reply, I am going to snip it because of how long it is and just number my replies in the order of your points.
1. Gamergate will always be about journalistic corruption but the fact that you journalists TURNED IT INTO a topic about sexism we must now defend ourselves. You created this issue, you put us on the defensive and created the anger and you brought our trust in you even lower.
2. Again, you bring up death threats as cop-out, its a false dilemma. I said gamers don't care WHO they play as, they don't care what sex characters are...you keep bringing things up that have nothing to do with the actual situation. I don't recall anyone ever saying anything about death threats, their being OK or not. So tell me something, are the death threats against MEN OK? ARE THEY? Do they exist?
Then there is no sexism, there is nothing happening to women in gaming that isn't also happening to men...but 3rd wave feminists need to be victims to be relevant so white knights are going to treat them as if they are special, still the princesses...the damsels in distress. If anyone is sexist, its you guys, gamers are treating women as equals by doing to them the same thing they do to men, when they hear BS, they get attacked for it.
As for your Anita Sarkeesian comment. Gamers are not the only people that attacked her on her idiocy, go watch the videos by The Factual Feminist, Dr Christian Sommers who outed that woman for the idiot she is...that's right, a FEMALE FEMINIST argued against Sarkeesian.
3. Commenting on and trying to FORCE CHANGE are two very different things. These people are not just talking about games, they are trying to change them completely and that is where the anger from gamers is coming from. They have gone so far as to try to force the gaming world to change the meaning of the word "gamer" to include anyone that has ever played a game EVER! And they are doing that so they can change the way gaming companies view the gaming consumer landscape to try to force them to change who they make games for...seriously, when has this ever happened before? can you name a single other time a group of people tried to get an industry to stop making products for the people that ACTUALLY BUY THEM?
4. down with the man...you are not the man. That is the heart of the problem, those of you in the main gaming media are fighting to stay relevant in a time when bloggers can get as many viewer/readers and in your desperation you are losing your grip.
If you want to stay relevant how about you actually represent your audience? Because you sure are not doing it with articles like this that try to turn us into something we are not just to kiss up to people that are not even in your audience...do you think if you grab hold of the feminist backside you are going to gain a large audience by writing for them?!?
5. Yet more video game to movies were made in the 1990s than 2000-2010. It was mainstream, has been mainstream. YOU are just more aware of it now. And it still does not justify OUTSIDE influence. Movies have been mainstream for how long now? Where are the groups trying to force all studios to change how they make films? Where are the cries for needing a gay person in every film? Where are the panels of movie makers where special interest groups get to tell them how to make films like 3rd wave feminists are at PAX and the GDC?!? Its a bogus argument you have, there is no justification for it. Its art remember? And art gets to imitate life, the good and the bad...and it also gets to be made for groups of people that also just so happens to contain MEN.
6. I did not say they included a transgender just to shut them up...I said they MENTIONED it just to do it. They did not have gay characters in older games to shut the gay crowd up, they did it because they wanted their product to reflect reality. You are the one making this into a political issue because you need to.
7. It is an attack piece because its holding up the idea that gamergate is about sexism, that gamers are sexist, that game makers are sexist and that any game released now with anything that is not a "straight" character is some kind of political victory which is clearly not the case because games have had them before 3rd wave feminists stuck their noeses into the gaming industry and gamers just plain DO NOT CARE. We play FUN games and that is all we care about, having FUN.
Its a total misrepresentation of the gaming community and of players and it all comes from a group of people that are not game players, its poisoning the industry.
As for your "I am not a journalist this is an opinion piece" comment...as I said, gamergate is about journalist corruption and if you actually had taken the time to learn about how gamergate got started instead of going by what your feminist friends have turned it into, you would know WTF is being talked about and why I said what I said, because you are the focus of the problem, its corrupted because journalists are not there anymore, just opinion givers and worse yet, opinion givers receiving things from gaming companies if their opinions fall in line with what they want.
Gamergate wants JOURNALSM BACK. Editorials used to have their own section, tucked in the back...behind the actual JOURNALIST articles...now, that's all we have, people giving their opinions, all biased and gamers are being left out, not represented at all, not being shown the TRUTH.
Also, I don't care if you are a feminist. I am a HUMANIST. I stand for actual equality and if I was against women being treated like objects I would also be equally against men being treated as objects in the same manner, something feminists clearly are not against since they only care about what happens to women.
Women are treated exactly the same as men are when it comes to games, men are just as objectified and in most cases treated far worse in games, they are disposable. For every woman that can be killed in a game, far more men can be killed. For every female NPC that cannot be spoken to, there are more male NPCs that cannot be spoken to. For every woman shown in a bikini there is a man in a spedo or some other swimsuit. For every woman with cleavage (when did this become sexist again?) there is a man showing pecks.
Don't take it from me, go watch a first wave feminist like Dr Sommers point out the madness going on here. This kind of crap is what caused Shirtgate, something so scary I cant help but remember the story of the bonfire of the vanities...and that is where this crap is leading. Did the world really fight for 500 years to break the grip of fundamentalist religion on everything only to see it replaced with fundamentalist feminism? And its only been 30 years since we broke the hold on sexual views and now we are regressing back only with new masters pushing a new kind of fundamentalist morals.
It isn't inequality, its equality. Women aren't special anymore, they are just like everyone else remember?
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Do I think games should involve politics? If it can be done correctly, yes. When done incorrectly it's an irritation. Reaper of Souls comes to mind; there's a lot of ridiculous straw-man and anti-religious political bullshit in the game which completely misrepresents the topics they're supposedly addressing, and it simply makes Blizzard look like a bunch of low information morons. Thankfully the largely negative response from the community will hopefully prevent them from pulling that crap in the future, or at least make them try to present the issue fairly.
Ultimately, game makers can do what they want. If you don't like what's being said, inform the creator of the game in a polite and articulate fashion and move on, and avoid their products in the future if it offends you that much.
AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!
We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD.
Feminists are in all political systems as are homosexuals. They even have their own PACs in both parties and even the Tea Party has a small LGBT PAC. This is not a left/right issue...and if you decide to reply to me on this try to remember that I was the one that got the OP to reply to my long post tearing his article apart.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Gamers don't care about the sex of a character, they don't care about the RACE of a character...outsiders do, because they are not gamers, not in the community and really really need to be victimized.
I'm not sure what you're saying here. Is it that they deserve the hate they often get for speaking up? Because if you're rationalizing death threats because they're outsiders, that's insane. Or are you saying that they have a need to play the victim? I don't know, but it feels like a stretch to make that assumption about people you've never met and at best have read very limited scope articles from. How do you know they're not gamers? Some YouTube videos about Anita Sarkeesian?
I think his point is that political controversies in games aren't necessarily driven by gamers. To take another context, how many of the people with strong opinions about Tim Tebow or Michael Sam actually care about football? Some do, to be sure, but some don't and just latch onto other cultural things that the person is known for.
It's like that with games, too. When a real gamer evaluates a game, game mechanics are important. It matters if the game is fun. It matters if the publisher is going to nickle and dime you. It matters if the game is a buggy mess. Which particular properties of a game are important to you my vary (e.g., some people care about crafting a lot more than others), but you care about the game as a game. A gamer may also care about political statements in the game, but that's surely not the only thing he cares about.
That's not the case for people who aren't gamers. If you don't like computer games, you don't care about server stability or grindiness or a lot of other things. But if you're an obnoxious busybody who isn't a gamer, you might decide that the racial composition or gender balance of characters in the game is "wrong" and have strong opinions about that for reasons unrelated to gaming. If you're not a gamer, political implications of the game might well be the only thing in the game that you care about, and you might well judge a game purely on that basis. That can drive scandals into media sources that don't cater to gamers.
Should we encourage Devs to inject real worlds politics into MMO gaming?
In my opinion No.
Playing MMOs has always been a great way to escape real life for a while, take a break and refresh one's self before diving back into the real world. Encouraging more political statements and so called "education of the masses" in MMO gaming not only ruins the games but potentially ruins the Players as well.
But my primary argument here is, when I play a game, I don't want to deal with those issues. It's fine if the policies of Queen Jennah or Sylvanas Windrunner or Admiral Merlwyb affect the storyline, but I don't want for there to be obvious parallels with real-life political controversies--especially if the storyline is written to try to attack one side in a real-life political controversy.
Originally posted by d_20 Everything is politics. -- Thomas MannThe question itself is political, whether consciously or not -- and thus moot.
Call me arrogant, but I disagree with Mr. Mann. Love is NOT political. It certainly can be politically motivated, but very separate from politics.
Birth and Death is also not "automatically" political.
Entertainment is certainly not 100% political, though much of it is. What political message did "Zoolander" pass on?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Gamers don't care about the sex of a character, they don't care about the RACE of a character...outsiders do, because they are not gamers, not in the community and really really need to be victimized.
I'm not sure what you're saying here. Is it that they deserve the hate they often get for speaking up? Because if you're rationalizing death threats because they're outsiders, that's insane. Or are you saying that they have a need to play the victim? I don't know, but it feels like a stretch to make that assumption about people you've never met and at best have read very limited scope articles from. How do you know they're not gamers? Some YouTube videos about Anita Sarkeesian?
I think his point is that political controversies in games aren't necessarily driven by gamers. To take another context, how many of the people with strong opinions about Tim Tebow or Michael Sam actually care about football? Some do, to be sure, but some don't and just latch onto other cultural things that the person is known for.
It's like that with games, too. When a real gamer evaluates a game, game mechanics are important. It matters if the game is fun. It matters if the publisher is going to nickle and dime you. It matters if the game is a buggy mess. Which particular properties of a game are important to you my vary (e.g., some people care about crafting a lot more than others), but you care about the game as a game. A gamer may also care about political statements in the game, but that's surely not the only thing he cares about.
That's not the case for people who aren't gamers. If you don't like computer games, you don't care about server stability or grindiness or a lot of other things. But if you're an obnoxious busybody who isn't a gamer, you might decide that the racial composition or gender balance of characters in the game is "wrong" and have strong opinions about that for reasons unrelated to gaming. If you're not a gamer, political implications of the game might well be the only thing in the game that you care about, and you might well judge a game purely on that basis. That can drive scandals into media sources that don't cater to gamers.
Exactly.
And people backing Sarkeesian and the other culture warriors need to take their own advice, listen and believe...listen to the people actually in the gaming community and believe us, we know what we like and don't like, we know what we believe and don't believe. But they are too busy demonizing us, so they can get attention for being the victims, while we all are labeled as loving rape culture, hate women, are against equality and are according to Sarkeesian, are all white supremacists that use capitalism to support our patriarchy. (yeah that crap was actually in her college thesis).
Its propaganda on a level that would make Goebbels jealous. Listen and believe, the nerve of saying that...unquestioning obedience...that's religious level fundamentalism and it comes wrapped in a warm blanket of bigotry behind a shield because "feminism".
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Originally posted by d_20 Everything is politics. -- Thomas Mann
The question itself is political, whether consciously or not -- and thus moot.
Call me arrogant, but I disagree with Mr. Mann. Love is NOT political. It certainly can be politically motivated, but very separate from politics.
Birth and Death is also not "automatically" political.
Entertainment is certainly not 100% political, though much of it is. What political message did "Zoolander" pass on?
Most RPGs (whether of the MMO variety or otherwise) implicitly advocate that if some malevolent, evil person/group/entity/force is seeking to conquer/destroy your city/country/planet/galaxy/universe, you're justified in using whatever (potentially violent) means are available to you to stop them forcibly. After all, that's exactly what you as the player are typically asked to do.
But that's not an especially controversial view, so it's not often remarked upon. People are much better at noticing biases that they disagree with than those that they agree with.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
I personally reject it and avoid games that do it. If the writers on the staff cant come up with stories or scenarios without injecting their personal spin on any political hot button, they should be let go and more creative minds let into the field.
I play games to remove myself from all the BS that comes with the real world. When real life problems start infecting my away-time, I find some other place to go. That includes comics and movies etc. Im an equal-opportunity avoider.
I don't play games to be "educated". I play for the fun. There is entirely too much indoctrination in almost every aspect of society. I will not consume it in my game time.
Thats the key word right there! I would guess that any game launched with overt political views will be a lesson on why communism is great and you should cast out all religions. Well not all religions, just the one on trial these days.
What you wont get is the message of freedom, responsibility, importance of family, values and limited government.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.
Call me arrogant, but I disagree with Mr. Mann. Love is NOT political. It certainly can be politically motivated, but very separate from politics.
Birth and Death is also not "automatically" political.
Entertainment is certainly not 100% political, though much of it is. What political message did "Zoolander" pass on?
Most RPGs (whether of the MMO variety or otherwise) implicitly advocate that if some malevolent, evil person/group/entity/force is seeking to conquer/destroy your city/country/planet/galaxy/universe, you're justified in using whatever (potentially violent) means are available to you to stop them forcibly. After all, that's exactly what you as the player are typically asked to do.
But that's not an especially controversial view, so it's not often remarked upon. People are much better at noticing biases that they disagree with than those that they agree with.
Defending yourself is not political and many vilians in RPGs are over the top evil with no real political motivation other than destruction. Now I am not saying there is no political motivations in any RPG, just saying it isn't black and white and justifying being violent in defending yourself does not mean you are being political.
Prime example would be, in Oblivion the world is being invaded by an outside force that wants to destroy everyone. Not political, just destructive. Skyrim, the world is being invaded by Dragons led by one who is destined to destroy the world...not political, just destructive. ESO, a world torn apart by kingdoms wanting to conquer each other...all political.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Originally posted by Iselin In games that feature romance between the player's character and other non-player characters, characterizing gay / lesbian relationships as "making a political statement" shows a pretty regressive and antiquated point of view.This characterization by the OP IS the political statement-- not Bioware's reflection of the romance possibilities that have always existed as long as there have been human beings.And no, I am not gay. I just have a low tolerance for homophobic BS disguised as arguments to keep "politics" out of games.
So, no matter the culture, planet, or species in any game, EARTH humans (and their behavior/culture) must be the norm? Are you serious?
Do beings from the Rigel or Betelgeuse systems have gay/lesbian/LBGT/straight members?
In my opinion, "sexual relationships" have no place in video games. I have not seen any developer handle the subject well at all, with any sense of "maturity." I usually avoid these kinds of games, so my experience is very limited. I understand some players' desire to have romances in their games for the immersion, but for me, "pixel love" is just uncomfortable. Call me a prude
So, people who disagree with your own OPINION are "homophobic?" Smooth...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Comments
no, no, no.
Politics poison everything.
It's crappy, it makes everyone miserable, and few writers can pull it off without being cringeworthy or preachy.
We have enough issues that games present without turning to real-life.
The mage-templar conflict was complex and good enough on it's own, the krogan genopaghe was a good story arc, and the stormcloak rebellion was a multifaceted grey-vs-grey conflict without being an expy for Northern Ireland, Catalonia, or Scotland.
Some of you might think i'm pissed my political sensibilities were offended.
No, i'm pro-enviromentalism, but if one of the main conflicts of a fantasy RPG i'd play were the elves protesting because the dwarves were frakking a mountain, i'd be unwilling to buy the sequel.
I'm asexual, i think, but if a game i'd play had a suspiciously large number of caste "blanks", and asex was a political token parties used, yes, it'd be pushing an agenda.
And not everyone has your issues.
I'm from south-eastern Europe. Your gun control debate is irrelevant for me, and your "how many blacks and hispanics should we add to our game to represent our demographics" is moot and alien here.
And c'mon, my escapist media is becoming crappier because of this politisation.
I no longer read cracked due to it turning into gamergate-the website, instead of the facts&dick jokes based humour it was, cyanide& happiness has made it's minute long black comedy animations turn into 15 minute long humourless rants about religion and the fucking Republican Party, mashable forgot it was a tech news site and turned most of it's articles into "life hacks" and social issues, so i moved to techcrunch, only for even there, some moron to insist on adding articles on his take on gamergate and online harrasment.
Seriously, if you produce any form of media, stay with your niche. We will love it. We don't want to read your personal blog.
Unless you have some unique spin on it, your attempt at social commentary will likely be both ham-fisted and a dime-a-dozen.
For Bioware Montreal, including homosexual relationship would not be a political statement as it is highly accepted in the region the dev lives in. Probably more of a representation of the society that raised them.
I am not sure if that studio is responsible for DAI, but after playing 70hours of the game it certainly have Montreal vibes in it.
Let me see: Zelda, Diablo, Torchlight, Amalur, etc.
My gaming blog
Well to me those all include relationship with other characters.
I don't see the problem with a game making any kind of political statement. If someone refuses to play a game because a character is gay, that says a lot about the person, not the dev studio. The world is becoming more and more liberal and open to different ways of thinking. Just because some people are stuck in a negative, racist, homophobic mindset, it shouldn't mean that devs shouldnt explore these ideas.
Gaming, for me, has always been about inclusion. Everyone can pick up a game and play it, no matter what category society places them in. Adding stronger female characters or homosexuals to a game is a good thing, it's not about changing minds, it's about educating the next generation to not be prejudice.
Nobody has any problem with "educating" someone *eyeroll*, people hate the gaming equivalent of frequent, crappy PSA's disguised as games.
Oh, and as a sidenote, enjoy your idea of generationally increasing liberalisation and tolerance.
History and counter-culture will turn it around soon.
Sad, but true.
I am someone that considers himself somewhat politically savy and a listner and sometime participant of political debate. However, do I want that to carry over into my favortie entertainment? NO. The problem with entertainment PRESENTING a political position is that there is no place to discuss and debate whether that position is valid or not. Instead, it would become a platform for whichever "side" to preach their message as they see fit. While I am all for the right of one to express their opinion, I am also of the opinion that ALL sides should have a chance to counter or agree. There are plenty of places where political message can be heard IF ONE CHOOSES. In an entertainment setting one usually expects to go for entertainment and not a political rally.
Let's party like it is 1863!
"Politics poisons everything."
That is so true and why we need to keep it out of gaming.
Tried: EQ2 - AC - EU - HZ - TR - MxO - TTO - WURM - SL - VG:SoH - PotBS - PS - AoC - WAR - DDO - SWTOR
Played: UO - EQ1 - AO - DAoC - NC - CoH/CoV - SWG - WoW - EVE - AA - LotRO - DFO - STO - FE - MO - RIFT
Playing: Skyrim
Following: The Repopulation
I want a Virtual World, not just a Game.
ITS TOO HARD! - Matt Firor (ZeniMax)
Tend to agree with that, political or other extremist points of views that people try to promote via the media of a game, of whatever type, should at the very least be declared as such up front so that people aren't mislead into buying something they would rather not touch with a 10ft bargepole. If there is one thing that Gamergate highlighted, is just how many groups out there, are keen on promoting their own agenda's and the lengths they are willing to go to, in order to 'impose' their own point of view on things, however unhinged they might be
Thanks for your reply, I am going to snip it because of how long it is and just number my replies in the order of your points.
1. Gamergate will always be about journalistic corruption but the fact that you journalists TURNED IT INTO a topic about sexism we must now defend ourselves. You created this issue, you put us on the defensive and created the anger and you brought our trust in you even lower.
2. Again, you bring up death threats as cop-out, its a false dilemma. I said gamers don't care WHO they play as, they don't care what sex characters are...you keep bringing things up that have nothing to do with the actual situation. I don't recall anyone ever saying anything about death threats, their being OK or not. So tell me something, are the death threats against MEN OK? ARE THEY? Do they exist?
Then there is no sexism, there is nothing happening to women in gaming that isn't also happening to men...but 3rd wave feminists need to be victims to be relevant so white knights are going to treat them as if they are special, still the princesses...the damsels in distress. If anyone is sexist, its you guys, gamers are treating women as equals by doing to them the same thing they do to men, when they hear BS, they get attacked for it.
As for your Anita Sarkeesian comment. Gamers are not the only people that attacked her on her idiocy, go watch the videos by The Factual Feminist, Dr Christian Sommers who outed that woman for the idiot she is...that's right, a FEMALE FEMINIST argued against Sarkeesian.
3. Commenting on and trying to FORCE CHANGE are two very different things. These people are not just talking about games, they are trying to change them completely and that is where the anger from gamers is coming from. They have gone so far as to try to force the gaming world to change the meaning of the word "gamer" to include anyone that has ever played a game EVER! And they are doing that so they can change the way gaming companies view the gaming consumer landscape to try to force them to change who they make games for...seriously, when has this ever happened before? can you name a single other time a group of people tried to get an industry to stop making products for the people that ACTUALLY BUY THEM?
4. down with the man...you are not the man. That is the heart of the problem, those of you in the main gaming media are fighting to stay relevant in a time when bloggers can get as many viewer/readers and in your desperation you are losing your grip.
If you want to stay relevant how about you actually represent your audience? Because you sure are not doing it with articles like this that try to turn us into something we are not just to kiss up to people that are not even in your audience...do you think if you grab hold of the feminist backside you are going to gain a large audience by writing for them?!?
5. Yet more video game to movies were made in the 1990s than 2000-2010. It was mainstream, has been mainstream. YOU are just more aware of it now. And it still does not justify OUTSIDE influence. Movies have been mainstream for how long now? Where are the groups trying to force all studios to change how they make films? Where are the cries for needing a gay person in every film? Where are the panels of movie makers where special interest groups get to tell them how to make films like 3rd wave feminists are at PAX and the GDC?!? Its a bogus argument you have, there is no justification for it. Its art remember? And art gets to imitate life, the good and the bad...and it also gets to be made for groups of people that also just so happens to contain MEN.
6. I did not say they included a transgender just to shut them up...I said they MENTIONED it just to do it. They did not have gay characters in older games to shut the gay crowd up, they did it because they wanted their product to reflect reality. You are the one making this into a political issue because you need to.
7. It is an attack piece because its holding up the idea that gamergate is about sexism, that gamers are sexist, that game makers are sexist and that any game released now with anything that is not a "straight" character is some kind of political victory which is clearly not the case because games have had them before 3rd wave feminists stuck their noeses into the gaming industry and gamers just plain DO NOT CARE. We play FUN games and that is all we care about, having FUN.
Its a total misrepresentation of the gaming community and of players and it all comes from a group of people that are not game players, its poisoning the industry.
As for your "I am not a journalist this is an opinion piece" comment...as I said, gamergate is about journalist corruption and if you actually had taken the time to learn about how gamergate got started instead of going by what your feminist friends have turned it into, you would know WTF is being talked about and why I said what I said, because you are the focus of the problem, its corrupted because journalists are not there anymore, just opinion givers and worse yet, opinion givers receiving things from gaming companies if their opinions fall in line with what they want.
Gamergate wants JOURNALSM BACK. Editorials used to have their own section, tucked in the back...behind the actual JOURNALIST articles...now, that's all we have, people giving their opinions, all biased and gamers are being left out, not represented at all, not being shown the TRUTH.
Also, I don't care if you are a feminist. I am a HUMANIST. I stand for actual equality and if I was against women being treated like objects I would also be equally against men being treated as objects in the same manner, something feminists clearly are not against since they only care about what happens to women.
Women are treated exactly the same as men are when it comes to games, men are just as objectified and in most cases treated far worse in games, they are disposable. For every woman that can be killed in a game, far more men can be killed. For every female NPC that cannot be spoken to, there are more male NPCs that cannot be spoken to. For every woman shown in a bikini there is a man in a spedo or some other swimsuit. For every woman with cleavage (when did this become sexist again?) there is a man showing pecks.
Don't take it from me, go watch a first wave feminist like Dr Sommers point out the madness going on here. This kind of crap is what caused Shirtgate, something so scary I cant help but remember the story of the bonfire of the vanities...and that is where this crap is leading. Did the world really fight for 500 years to break the grip of fundamentalist religion on everything only to see it replaced with fundamentalist feminism? And its only been 30 years since we broke the hold on sexual views and now we are regressing back only with new masters pushing a new kind of fundamentalist morals.
It isn't inequality, its equality. Women aren't special anymore, they are just like everyone else remember?
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
[mod edit]
Do I think games should involve politics? If it can be done correctly, yes. When done incorrectly it's an irritation. Reaper of Souls comes to mind; there's a lot of ridiculous straw-man and anti-religious political bullshit in the game which completely misrepresents the topics they're supposedly addressing, and it simply makes Blizzard look like a bunch of low information morons. Thankfully the largely negative response from the community will hopefully prevent them from pulling that crap in the future, or at least make them try to present the issue fairly.
Ultimately, game makers can do what they want. If you don't like what's being said, inform the creator of the game in a polite and articulate fashion and move on, and avoid their products in the future if it offends you that much.
AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!
We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD.
#IStandWithVic
You are doing exactly what the OP wanted.
Feminists are in all political systems as are homosexuals. They even have their own PACs in both parties and even the Tea Party has a small LGBT PAC. This is not a left/right issue...and if you decide to reply to me on this try to remember that I was the one that got the OP to reply to my long post tearing his article apart.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
I think his point is that political controversies in games aren't necessarily driven by gamers. To take another context, how many of the people with strong opinions about Tim Tebow or Michael Sam actually care about football? Some do, to be sure, but some don't and just latch onto other cultural things that the person is known for.
It's like that with games, too. When a real gamer evaluates a game, game mechanics are important. It matters if the game is fun. It matters if the publisher is going to nickle and dime you. It matters if the game is a buggy mess. Which particular properties of a game are important to you my vary (e.g., some people care about crafting a lot more than others), but you care about the game as a game. A gamer may also care about political statements in the game, but that's surely not the only thing he cares about.
That's not the case for people who aren't gamers. If you don't like computer games, you don't care about server stability or grindiness or a lot of other things. But if you're an obnoxious busybody who isn't a gamer, you might decide that the racial composition or gender balance of characters in the game is "wrong" and have strong opinions about that for reasons unrelated to gaming. If you're not a gamer, political implications of the game might well be the only thing in the game that you care about, and you might well judge a game purely on that basis. That can drive scandals into media sources that don't cater to gamers.
Should we encourage Devs to inject real worlds politics into MMO gaming?
In my opinion No.
Playing MMOs has always been a great way to escape real life for a while, take a break and refresh one's self before diving back into the real world. Encouraging more political statements and so called "education of the masses" in MMO gaming not only ruins the games but potentially ruins the Players as well.
[mod edit]
But my primary argument here is, when I play a game, I don't want to deal with those issues. It's fine if the policies of Queen Jennah or Sylvanas Windrunner or Admiral Merlwyb affect the storyline, but I don't want for there to be obvious parallels with real-life political controversies--especially if the storyline is written to try to attack one side in a real-life political controversy.
Birth and Death is also not "automatically" political.
Entertainment is certainly not 100% political, though much of it is. What political message did "Zoolander" pass on?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
That it's ok for a miner's son to go be a model?
Exactly.
And people backing Sarkeesian and the other culture warriors need to take their own advice, listen and believe...listen to the people actually in the gaming community and believe us, we know what we like and don't like, we know what we believe and don't believe. But they are too busy demonizing us, so they can get attention for being the victims, while we all are labeled as loving rape culture, hate women, are against equality and are according to Sarkeesian, are all white supremacists that use capitalism to support our patriarchy. (yeah that crap was actually in her college thesis).
Its propaganda on a level that would make Goebbels jealous. Listen and believe, the nerve of saying that...unquestioning obedience...that's religious level fundamentalism and it comes wrapped in a warm blanket of bigotry behind a shield because "feminism".
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Most RPGs (whether of the MMO variety or otherwise) implicitly advocate that if some malevolent, evil person/group/entity/force is seeking to conquer/destroy your city/country/planet/galaxy/universe, you're justified in using whatever (potentially violent) means are available to you to stop them forcibly. After all, that's exactly what you as the player are typically asked to do.
But that's not an especially controversial view, so it's not often remarked upon. People are much better at noticing biases that they disagree with than those that they agree with.
That a man can be gay, and not at the same time.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Thats the key word right there! I would guess that any game launched with overt political views will be a lesson on why communism is great and you should cast out all religions. Well not all religions, just the one on trial these days.
What you wont get is the message of freedom, responsibility, importance of family, values and limited government.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.
George Washington
Defending yourself is not political and many vilians in RPGs are over the top evil with no real political motivation other than destruction. Now I am not saying there is no political motivations in any RPG, just saying it isn't black and white and justifying being violent in defending yourself does not mean you are being political.
Prime example would be, in Oblivion the world is being invaded by an outside force that wants to destroy everyone. Not political, just destructive. Skyrim, the world is being invaded by Dragons led by one who is destined to destroy the world...not political, just destructive. ESO, a world torn apart by kingdoms wanting to conquer each other...all political.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Do beings from the Rigel or Betelgeuse systems have gay/lesbian/LBGT/straight members?
In my opinion, "sexual relationships" have no place in video games. I have not seen any developer handle the subject well at all, with any sense of "maturity." I usually avoid these kinds of games, so my experience is very limited. I understand some players' desire to have romances in their games for the immersion, but for me, "pixel love" is just uncomfortable. Call me a prude
So, people who disagree with your own OPINION are "homophobic?" Smooth...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR