I lolled at the no story line or videos suggestion.
If you really want no roleplaying, then why play an rpg. Go play CoD multiplayer, that has no storyline or videos.
In any good roleplay, no one would want a story that is made by a third party and experienced the same way by everyone playing the game. Roleplaying =/= Listening to a story
Dungeons & Dragons... The Tabletop RPG. Look it up.
I think they are talking about watching cut scenes which is not the same thing at all as playing D&D or other RPGs. People want some control over how the story comes out.
And unless you live under a rock, you will realize that people in general are less social as a whole.
Please not this fail train of thought again...
People are more social than ever. What has changed tho is How they communicate.
All the communication is way faster and broader due technological advancement. You get phones, twitters, skypes, e-shops, emails, w/e. You socialize with way more people every day than people 100 years ago could ever imagine.
Talking to someone in person is not less socializing than talking via phone, email, chat or running a dungeon in a video game.
You are looking at contemporary times with a prism of past.
Random empty headed thoughts tweeted to everyone is not socializing. Going down the pub and discussing football, cricket, politics or the new bird behind the bar with big tits... all done over a beer... is socializing.
Make combat classes dependent on crafting classes. EVE does this right. All product in game is made and sold by a player. I used to be a big fan of the Global Auction House, because it was easy, but I think Auction Houses in a big city should just be for that city and not everywhere. Let crafters either hire NPC shopkeepers to sell there goods or crafters sell to a broker (or use a broker as intermediary) and combat classes buy from a broker.
As it stands, every mmo for the past 5 years are made for no community....yet they tell you to play togeather. well that's nice when developers are all sitting next to each other in the SAME ROOM !....THEY HAVE THERE HEAD UP THERE BUTT
When did they tell us to play together? Didn't every game highlight solo content?
To be honest, I wouldn't play a game without (5) & (6). Community is just not that important to me. As pointed out by others, the reason MMOs are not made for community ... is that players don't really want the old kind of "community" that much.
As far as the "players having control over how any MMORPG story comes out"... That is always an illusion. Even in the Tabletop RPGs, it is the Game Master (equivalent of an MMORPG company) whom dictates the story, no matter what options a player can dream up. If the players succeed, the Game Master has a predetermined storyline to follow it. If the players fail, the Game Master has a predetermined storyline to follow it. If the players manage to make decisions outside of the Game Master's foresight, then it is still the Game Master whom knows how to place them back on said predetermined track. There is no difference from that scenario as compared with an MMORPG.
It comes down to the MMORPG companies' abilities to design that illusion of player control, to such an extent where it becomes believable by the players. To add to this, no matter what an MMORPG company places within a game world, that sets the limits of what can be controlled by the players, both intended and unintended.
I think a good DM will adapt the storyline according to what the players choose or else they will probably be accused of "railroading" which tends to piss most players off. Single player games like The Witcher give you real options which absolutely affect how your story plays out.
Yes it is much harder to do this in an MMO setting but I still maintain that this is what many players *want* regardless of how difficult it is for devs to pull off.
1) Much LARGER Zones that cover a wider range of levels.
When you first enter a zone, you should be able to take ALL the quest. That way when you see someone doing something you can play with them ( no two quest hubs ).
This has nothing to do with community.
2) Slow leveling.
More people in your level range to make friends with. Gaining levels every hour causes friends to out level each other. This would greatly help Guilds to play together too.
Yes it is part fo the equation as past has proven players liewk to speed throguh linear questing then quit.
3) Do away with dynamic events.
This is like poison to mmos....No one talks !
Depends what we call Dynamic evenls,a develoepr self proclaiming they have dynamic events does not make it so.I see no reason why they hamper nor help community but i have first have seen how the community joins together in FFXI Besieged which is imo the best event ever in any game.
4) Make the game harder with some easy content for when you feel like soloing.
Yes harder does enforce the grouping aspect but the ENTIRE game needs to be this way.Solo content should be elsewhere not involved wit hthe leveling process,example harvesting,housing,crafting,mounts,gardening ect ect.
5) No Looking for Dungeon or cross realm finders.
Yes, encourage players to use social panels, give a good tutorial about this subject. and developer focuse on making it work.
I take this as a personal knock on WOW a game to which i personally don't like but the idea is a decent one to serve it's purpose.However the idea of constantly group to just hit dungeons is NOT a good community builder but just a selfish run fro loot so ya removing dungeon finders is a good thing.
Having said that i actually don't mind the idea if ONLY for certain tough quests/missions that NEED a group,i have seen it work in DND and other games as well as FFXIV.
6) No story lines and videos.
Were talking about mmos not single player games, if you like 10 min videos then play off line games.
Total hogwash here,stopry and videos can still be done in a community/group so it does nothing to hurt community nor does it do anything to remove them and help community.I have enjoyed taking down content and thouroughly enjoyed watching the cutscene video with my companions.
7) Seamless worlds.
This helps.
Biggest community game ever designed >>>FFXI does not have seamless worlds ,so again this is a flase statement, it does nothing to help or hamper community.
As it stands, every mmo for the past 5 years are made for no community....yet they tell you to play togeather. well that's nice when developers are all sitting next to each other in the SAME ROOM !....THEY HAVE THERE HEAD UP THERE BUTT
The REAL problem is the players,most are selfish,most don' want a role playing experience but just a looting experience or BRAGGING rights and MOST don't even want a grouping /community experience just soem friends to help them attain their selfish needs.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
The other major problem is of course that developers have been calling their games MMO's yet the ONLY MMO aspect is the ability to log tons of players into servers.This proves that simple definitions do not do terms justice,you NEED to actually reinforce the MMO aspect inside your game otherwise it is merely a title and does nothing to actually be a MMORPG.
A perfect example is Unreal Tournament has thousands of servers,you can log tons of players into each if you wanted it doesn't make the game a MMO.Another example was GW1 having players instance inside the game removes any care for having tons login to the servers.If 99% of game play is done solo then again it does nothing to reinforce the MMO or rpg status of the game.
This is why back several years ago when there were not many MMO's,people used to comment on weather develoeprs had the ability to create a true MMO outside their usual single player game designs and judging from what i have seen,MOST do NOT have the ability.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Originally posted by delete5230 1) Much LARGER Zones that cover a wider range of levels. When you first enter a zone, you should be able to take ALL the quest. That way when you see someone doing something you can play with them ( no two quest hubs ).
2) Slow leveling. More people in your level range to make friends with. Gaining levels every hour causes friends to out level each other. This would greatly help Guilds to play together too.
3) Do away with dynamic events. This is like poison to mmos....No one talks !
4) Make the game harder with some easy content for when you feel like soloing.
5) No Looking for Dungeon or cross realm finders. Yes, encourage players to use social panels, give a good tutorial about this subject. and developer focuse on making it work.
6) No story lines and videos. Were talking about mmos not single player games, if you like 10 min videos then play off line games.
7) Seamless worlds. This helps.
As it stands, every mmo for the past 5 years are made for no community....yet they tell you to play togeather. well that's nice when developers are all sitting next to each other in the SAME ROOM !....THEY HAVE THERE HEAD UP THERE BUTT
An interesting list, but really, all you need are players that actually want a community experience.
Way too many players today play a MASSIVELY MULTI-PLAYER game and care not one whit about the other players in the game, essentially seeking a single player experience online.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Waterlily it was a 4 hour run through dangerous zones and the fact you could get attacked and lose your gear.The meant you needed to make friends.
No, that meant people left the game since there aren't many people having 4 hours spare time for a run.You can't force people to play the way you want.
But *you* can! Nice You want streamlined, efficient, action now games. Gratz. You got it.
BTW, if you don't "have the time", why play a game other than Solitaire/Freecell?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
IMO the only thing that can bring community back is smaller game. That's it.
A community consist of common interests, values... on some level anyway. Today's games/internet are so widespread, there are dozens and dozens of communities in a single game.
If you want the type of community you want (whatever that is) and it to be reflected in the game, you will have to have a smaller game.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
And as desperately as the people on this board would like to spin it as if the players are dumb or otherwise have "inferior" opinions, the truth of the matter is the games are designed the way they are for sensible reasons related to game design that completely escapes the minds of those that do not actually know anything about game design but think they do.
And as the result, we get threads like this.
Put another way, lack of what people around here call "community" is a feature, not a bug.
I lolled at the no story line or videos suggestion.
If you really want no roleplaying, then why play an rpg. Go play CoD multiplayer, that has no storyline or videos.
Doing a dungeon with other people and constantly watch videos still can be pretty annoying.
Having optional stories with vids and stuff is no problem in a MMO but waiting for other players to watch a five minutes video does not work in multiplayer content.
Roleplaying works in 2 ways, you could interact with NPCs or other players and both are fine but if you mix it up too much with eachother it gets pretty boring since most players do the same dungeons many times.
In a single player RPG you do most stuff once so it isn't a problem and you don't have to wait for other people to finnish either but MMOs need to tell it's story in another way than a single player game.
I still think MMOs should have a story though but you just can't take a game like Dragon age or Mass effect and add thousands of players. Some videos work to set the mode even in multiplayer but they need to be shorter and less frequently used then when you play by yourself.
GW2s way with an optional solo storyline works fine since it is optional and there you can make something similar to single player games but that works less than optimal if you do it for a group.
GW2s way with an optional solo storyline works fine since it is optional and there you can make something similar to single player games but that works less than optimal if you do it for a group
Do it like D3. You can skip the video, and most players do multiplayer in random dungeons anyway.
1) Much LARGER Zones that cover a wider range of levels.
When you first enter a zone, you should be able to take ALL the quest. That way when you see someone doing something you can play with them ( no two quest hubs ).
2) Slow leveling.
More people in your level range to make friends with. Gaining levels every hour causes friends to out level each other. This would greatly help Guilds to play together too.
3) Do away with dynamic events.
This is like poison to mmos....No one talks !
4) Make the game harder with some easy content for when you feel like soloing.
5) No Looking for Dungeon or cross realm finders.
Yes, encourage players to use social panels, give a good tutorial about this subject. and developer focuse on making it work.
6) No story lines and videos.
Were talking about mmos not single player games, if you like 10 min videos then play off line games.
7) Seamless worlds.
This helps.
As it stands, every mmo for the past 5 years are made for no community....yet they tell you to play togeather. well that's nice when developers are all sitting next to each other in the SAME ROOM !....THEY HAVE THERE HEAD UP THERE BUTT
I agree with one of your points which is slow down leveling. Everything else is just silly and doesn't really affect a community's status. Every game wants to make leveling faster and faster. Selling boosts now? Seriously....There's nothing I like more than getting a group with some fresh person who knows nothing about their class so I can waste 10minutes waiting to kick them. Sure I could educate but if they are close to max level, should I really need to? As far as these things making it so people do not have to talk, that's up to people. You can always say hi, nothing is preventing you from doing that. If they do not respond, they either dont feel like it or dont care. Elements like dungeon finder and stuff are for practical people that want to play when they have time to play. Its not making anyone anti-social, people are making themselves anti-social.
To being back the kind of community the OP is looking for one thing is needed.
FEAR.
Pure and simple. You need to be afraid... Afraid to be left behind, afraid to be showed aside, afraid to be put to shame and afraid to miss out on parts of the game.
Fear drives us together... After all how often have you not heard "back in thedays you had to behave in a ceartin way or you would be shunned" now most of the time it was good. but it is still fear that drives it.
This, and interdependent gameplay mechanics of all types, and the game also must be mostly solo unfriendly. It also must be one world,
None of that shard/channel/server/transfer crap either. Players need to be held accountable for their conduct/performance/reputation.
In FFXI I still remember my first terrifying trip to Jueno, and the excitment of being in an awesome party. When other people HAVE to rely on you it makes a difference.
Like others have posted, I think the people who enjoyed the community aspect that used to be the most important type of glue for players in the past are still making these communities in current games. The issue is that the MMO community has gotten so large most people don't really care. Most people enjoy MOBAs (esport games) for the ease of access. If you make an MMORPG like this, you'll get more people to play and enjoy it.
Levels make us play with few people in our own level range. We are not part of community before we hit cap. The whole world is gated by level, we are not part of the world either. We are not part of guild because we are different level, we cant play with friends...
Levels = the best way to kill community, not to bring it back.
= All Semantics, except for actual implementation and content.
Without progression, you do not have an MMORPG, you have SIMS and IMVU.
Keep the progression but make it horizontal not vertical. Make it so people can progress any way they want from the moment they step into the game world. Don't put barriers in place like levels (ranks), gear or tiers. Once you do that you limit the community aspect of a MMORPG. Put in some type of mentoring system that allows characters that are long in the tooth to play with their newby friends. Encourage grouping but don't make it mandatory.
The developers didn't get rid of community... the players did.
And unless you live under a rock, you will realize that people in general are less social as a whole. Do you know everyone on your street? Do you actually converse with your neighbors? Do you talk with your co-workers other than to conduct business? Chat with the people who work at the stores you shop in? Have real tangible friends and not just a list of names on some friends list?
If you don't care to interact with the people who are around you in real life... why would you care to do so online?
Community is dead because the players don't care to have one...
Just think about it... people clamor about having player housing because they want to insulate themselves from the rest of the world and other players. They like the idea of isolation, in real life and in their virtual one. Until the players decide they want to interact with others, no amount of game design is going to change that.
I know everyone on my street and talk to my neighbors. My coworkers are my friends after work. Like real tangible friends as you put it.
I guess I am strange.
Yes, well we all know that DMKano.
But Pepeq is correct, socialization mechanics have largely been eliminated from MMORPG's by popular demand. People are more like Narius and less like you.
Or they socialize heavily in real life, so they have no need for further socialization in their games. (heck, perhaps they are looking for some respite from people by this point)
But there are those of us who did (and still would) socialize more if presented the opportunity, however not likely game developers are going to spend much time catering to this niche.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I haven't notice we lost "community". Each time I log into one of the games I play, I interact with dozens of other players, including total strangers.
Maybe the people claiming that community is dead should question their own playstyle instead of the genre. Maybe they are just unable to socialize if not forced to by the game.
I agree. Even in SWToR there's plenty of socializing going on and generally a good community.
Yeah this is about the OP. If your not friendly with people why should they be to you. I always say hi to people questing near me or in general. And maybe it also depends on what game your playing. In AA people ae just aholes. In wow it used to be like that but the community is alot older now so friendlier. Just saying hi can lead to teaming up if your questing in the same area.
Comments
I think they are talking about watching cut scenes which is not the same thing at all as playing D&D or other RPGs. People want some control over how the story comes out.
I honestly believe if you removed LFD/LFR, and the world a more dangerous it would actually cause people to interact together for a common goal.
Random empty headed thoughts tweeted to everyone is not socializing. Going down the pub and discussing football, cricket, politics or the new bird behind the bar with big tits... all done over a beer... is socializing.
Make combat classes dependent on crafting classes. EVE does this right. All product in game is made and sold by a player. I used to be a big fan of the Global Auction House, because it was easy, but I think Auction Houses in a big city should just be for that city and not everywhere. Let crafters either hire NPC shopkeepers to sell there goods or crafters sell to a broker (or use a broker as intermediary) and combat classes buy from a broker.
When did they tell us to play together? Didn't every game highlight solo content?
To be honest, I wouldn't play a game without (5) & (6). Community is just not that important to me. As pointed out by others, the reason MMOs are not made for community ... is that players don't really want the old kind of "community" that much.
I think a good DM will adapt the storyline according to what the players choose or else they will probably be accused of "railroading" which tends to piss most players off. Single player games like The Witcher give you real options which absolutely affect how your story plays out.
Yes it is much harder to do this in an MMO setting but I still maintain that this is what many players *want* regardless of how difficult it is for devs to pull off.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
The other major problem is of course that developers have been calling their games MMO's yet the ONLY MMO aspect is the ability to log tons of players into servers.This proves that simple definitions do not do terms justice,you NEED to actually reinforce the MMO aspect inside your game otherwise it is merely a title and does nothing to actually be a MMORPG.
A perfect example is Unreal Tournament has thousands of servers,you can log tons of players into each if you wanted it doesn't make the game a MMO.Another example was GW1 having players instance inside the game removes any care for having tons login to the servers.If 99% of game play is done solo then again it does nothing to reinforce the MMO or rpg status of the game.
This is why back several years ago when there were not many MMO's,people used to comment on weather develoeprs had the ability to create a true MMO outside their usual single player game designs and judging from what i have seen,MOST do NOT have the ability.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Way too many players today play a MASSIVELY MULTI-PLAYER game and care not one whit about the other players in the game, essentially seeking a single player experience online.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
BTW, if you don't "have the time", why play a game other than Solitaire/Freecell?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
IMO the only thing that can bring community back is smaller game. That's it.
A community consist of common interests, values... on some level anyway. Today's games/internet are so widespread, there are dozens and dozens of communities in a single game.
If you want the type of community you want (whatever that is) and it to be reflected in the game, you will have to have a smaller game.
Put another way, lack of what people around here call "community" is a feature, not a bug.
Because is more fun?
I would rather run a quick 15 min dungeon than playing 15 min of freecell. Apparently, devs think that there is a big enough market for that.
Doing a dungeon with other people and constantly watch videos still can be pretty annoying.
Having optional stories with vids and stuff is no problem in a MMO but waiting for other players to watch a five minutes video does not work in multiplayer content.
Roleplaying works in 2 ways, you could interact with NPCs or other players and both are fine but if you mix it up too much with eachother it gets pretty boring since most players do the same dungeons many times.
In a single player RPG you do most stuff once so it isn't a problem and you don't have to wait for other people to finnish either but MMOs need to tell it's story in another way than a single player game.
I still think MMOs should have a story though but you just can't take a game like Dragon age or Mass effect and add thousands of players. Some videos work to set the mode even in multiplayer but they need to be shorter and less frequently used then when you play by yourself.
GW2s way with an optional solo storyline works fine since it is optional and there you can make something similar to single player games but that works less than optimal if you do it for a group.
Do it like D3. You can skip the video, and most players do multiplayer in random dungeons anyway.
I agree with one of your points which is slow down leveling. Everything else is just silly and doesn't really affect a community's status. Every game wants to make leveling faster and faster. Selling boosts now? Seriously....There's nothing I like more than getting a group with some fresh person who knows nothing about their class so I can waste 10minutes waiting to kick them. Sure I could educate but if they are close to max level, should I really need to? As far as these things making it so people do not have to talk, that's up to people. You can always say hi, nothing is preventing you from doing that. If they do not respond, they either dont feel like it or dont care. Elements like dungeon finder and stuff are for practical people that want to play when they have time to play. Its not making anyone anti-social, people are making themselves anti-social.
This, and interdependent gameplay mechanics of all types, and the game also must be mostly solo unfriendly. It also must be one world,
None of that shard/channel/server/transfer crap either. Players need to be held accountable for their conduct/performance/reputation.
In FFXI I still remember my first terrifying trip to Jueno, and the excitment of being in an awesome party. When other people HAVE to rely on you it makes a difference.
Like others have posted, I think the people who enjoyed the community aspect that used to be the most important type of glue for players in the past are still making these communities in current games. The issue is that the MMO community has gotten so large most people don't really care. Most people enjoy MOBAs (esport games) for the ease of access. If you make an MMORPG like this, you'll get more people to play and enjoy it.
Stopped reading here.
Levels make us play with few people in our own level range. We are not part of community before we hit cap. The whole world is gated by level, we are not part of the world either. We are not part of guild because we are different level, we cant play with friends...
Levels = the best way to kill community, not to bring it back.
Keep the progression but make it horizontal not vertical. Make it so people can progress any way they want from the moment they step into the game world. Don't put barriers in place like levels (ranks), gear or tiers. Once you do that you limit the community aspect of a MMORPG. Put in some type of mentoring system that allows characters that are long in the tooth to play with their newby friends. Encourage grouping but don't make it mandatory.
Yes, well we all know that DMKano.
But Pepeq is correct, socialization mechanics have largely been eliminated from MMORPG's by popular demand. People are more like Narius and less like you.
Or they socialize heavily in real life, so they have no need for further socialization in their games. (heck, perhaps they are looking for some respite from people by this point)
But there are those of us who did (and still would) socialize more if presented the opportunity, however not likely game developers are going to spend much time catering to this niche.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Yeah this is about the OP. If your not friendly with people why should they be to you. I always say hi to people questing near me or in general. And maybe it also depends on what game your playing. In AA people ae just aholes. In wow it used to be like that but the community is alot older now so friendlier. Just saying hi can lead to teaming up if your questing in the same area.