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Was very interested in this game thinking it would have competitive pvp like darkfall or mortal online because of its aiming features, but then found out you can also tab target and auto aim and never miss.
Why? How Does this make sense?
You have a game that could have the best mmorpg combat ever with its FPS combat, and include an option to tab target and never miss? So what would be the point of aiming and having a chance of missing and loosing a fight when you can just tab target and play it like WOW?
I really can't understand this. Was excited for a real sandbox mmorpg with good combat, but it looks like it was all a gimmick.
Comments
From what I've read I still believe it's advantageous aiming rather than tabbing. As far as "never missing"... that comes down to skill, weapon type and armor.
I'd rather have actual aiming however, I'm confident ill find a way to build the gap between skill and time played.
Afaik the difference is this:
With tab target/auto aim you do 100dmg constantly but with aiming you can do headshots with increase the dmg to let's say 150. Personally I'd do tab target in PvE and trying to headshot people in PvP. I think it is an interesting concept and hope they balance it right.
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That is not how it actually works. Shooting any part of a player does the exact same damage. Tab Targeting = Easy Mode and makes FPS mode make no sense. Straight from a devs mouth.
I really have a hard time understanding why the biggest selling point of the game, is made completely trivial by a 10+ year old standard mmo tab targeting system. Competitive players will be waiting for the next game I suppose.
Not sure why they can't make the hardcore server aim only, that would solve the problem and allow casual players that prefer tab targeting to play on the normal server which they most likely will anyway.
I think alot of people who just settle down to play an mmo don't want or need the constant "on edge" feeling of absent tab targeting. You have to pour alot more attention.. every time.. into every combat.. and that gets old for alot of people. I don't mind either way, but I know there are times I "just want" tab targeting, either because I haven't eaten enough sugar or smoked enough meth that day.
That was humor. I smoke enough meth every day.
That was more humor. I don't have days.
ok. I don't smoke meth and sometimes I'm bad at humor.
"Biggest selling point of the game".. Wait, what? Do you know anything about this game? It's a revisit to ideas in SWG and UO this isn't just another Darkfall or MO... IT's a community building game, not a bloodsport.
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I wanted to address the tab target vs. action topic quickly.
Why is it there? Well the main problem with one mode or the other is that the community is very much split on the subject. We've ran a series of polls, and metrics on the matter and viewed a lot of external data on the topic and in general RPG Mode is slightly more favored by players than shooter modes. It's very close but its generally like 53/47. Unfortunately, RPG style of play is also considered rather boring by a lot of players. So we wanted to develop a system that could play a bit more like a shooter, while keeping the complexity of mechanics of RPG Mode, and that's what Action Mode is. It's not a shooter. The underlying principles are all the exact same as in RPG Mode. It's just a different way of controlling your character.
There are hit zones, however. But you will need the appropriate ability type to take advantage of them. For example, if you have a head shot available and shoot someone in the Head, the Head Shot ability will be at the top of the selection list so it should get selected assuming it is off cooldown. If you don't have the ability or it's on cooldown though then it falls back to the next most relevant ability. We also didn't want to put Action Mode at a disadvantage to RPG Mode so there is aim assistance (you get some leeway) and if you shoot a standard body shot it has a chance to select a targeted shot (head, leg, arm) instead.
The Action vs. RPG mechanics are a tricky one for developers to solve. If you go pure Action, you lose half your potential audience. If you go pure RPG you lose half your potential audience. We've tried to dance around it and find a happy medium. For RPG fans it should feel fairly normal to play in RPG Mode, shooter fans will likely notice that it isn't a true shooter. But a percentage of them who simply wouldn't play a pure RPG game will be able to play in Action Mode. Others will wish it was pure action and move on. We'll continue to refine the two modes and gameplay in general. But the game will always be an RPG under the hood.
https://www.therepopulation.com - Sci Fi Sandbox.
I dont see how tab targeting auto attack combat makes an mmo feel more like a virtual world. To me a virtual world is meant to bring immersion through some level of realism, and auto aiming standing in front my enemy exchanging blows doesnt seem realistic.
Also I dont want homing bullets and PC is the platform where shooters originate from.
I really hope this is true. We shall see.
You are planning to have a hardcore server. A server where competitive players will play on and casual players will avoid. Have it aim only,
You will get half the players that will not be interested in tab targeting being in their game, and keep the other half that are casuals and not interested in competitive pvp that do want tab targeting.
I hope you are a dev, and hope you listen to this. I simply will not play a mmorpg where I could be at a disadvantage for choosing to aim over tab target, and will not play a tab target only game. I will play games like darkfall and mortal online over your current implementation any day. I can assure you I am not the only competitive mmorpg player that feels this way.
Check this out.
https://www.therepopulation.com/index.php/news/153-hardcore-server-rules
What about having pure fps mode only for the hardcore full loot server?
This server will be played 99% by hardcore players, like Darkfall and UO vets for example, so why don't make fps only in this server?
I find pretty stupid that somebody without any player skill can just lock me and kill me cause unavoidable projectiles, if you suck at aim and you suck at dodge you should suck, STOP, the system shouldn't help you in any way.
This game will be a niche anyway, so please consider to remove the tab targeting from the hardcore server at least. This is the only way i will play this game, bypassing my hate for sci-fi enviroment (yes, i'm a fan of medieval fantasy sandbox, like UO or Darkfall, and expecially where player skills is all).
i will indeed not play this game if i can't dodge or evade attacks (every kind), i have enought of these old tab targeting smashing fest that require ZERO brain.
is so hard making a game where positioning, tactics, and player skills really are a factor and matter?
again, trying to increase your adience for an already niche game will make more people unhappy, reducing more your playerbase in the long run.
have the ball to stick with your original idea, a niche FFA full loot sandbox clan warfare and territory/resources control, instead of make compromises that will decrease the overall quality of the final product.
tl;dr stop try to cater to a big audience and decrease the quality of your game, you can't please everyone tastes so focus only on one thing and improve it overtime, aka make the hardcore serve true hardcore, stick with fps mode only and full loot.
One of the reasons i love RPGs is that i can play a character with very different qualities and skills than what i have in real life. My character has skills to shoot, skills to cast spells, skills to craft metal armors, etc.
Now, when i'm playing an RPG computer game, i should have to trust my character can aim and hit the targets i choose for him based on his skills and training, not because of my skills and reflexes as a player.
If there's no stats or skills in your game, and everyone is on equal ground in PvP, action combat could be great and the best player wins, but that's not an RPG game.
I love how they make these design choices based on statistics. "47% of players are in a favor of shooter mode!". When did a game developing become a democracy. Why can't the designers see they are making mediocre games for everyone. You don't please any of your target groups by making compromises, and your game ends up being liked by no one even tho your initial idea was to please as many of possible.
If there really has to be two modes for combat, please at least make them for separate servers under different set of rules.
EDIT: Just read what the above poster had written and that's exactly my thought, even tho we're on different sides on this. Please stop making compromises and choose one or the other. You don't do any good by making your game a total mess gameplay-wise.
Agree with you, either make an MMORPG or an MMOFPS. If you really want both, make different servers rules.
The Repopulation is an MMORPG by design, not an MMOFPS.
The action mode is a simulated FPS, but internally works exactly the same as tab targeting. It was added as an option for players that enjoy that kind of playstyle and is optional. It's an extra that the Repopulation offers because it like to give players choice, it's not part of the core design.
You can't please everyone.
But wouldn't EVE Online fall close to the "Tab Target" category?
Broadly speaking, in EVE you can maneouver a bit to dodge and keep your distance, but targeting is pretty much "Tab" style.
Which would seem to imply that hardcore, full loot and tab targetting can coexist, although of course the array of relevant skills are different (more on the side of how to gear your ship/toon and knowing the rock/paper/scissors dynamics of each loadout, rather than aiming, moving and dodging as you point out above)
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"Evening Star": a The Repopulation novel.
Does anyone remember Tabula Rasa's targeting system? It was a hybrid of tab-target and FPS targeting. You had to move your cursor over an enemy to target them. They would remain your target for a couple seconds after moving off them unless you moved your cursor over another target. While they were your target, you could press tab to lock on and they would stay your target. I think you lost targeting on someone if they moved out of line-of-sight for more than 2 seconds even if they were locked.
In Tabula Rasa, the targeting was only done for the gameplay feel of it. There was no actual calculation of projectile vectors, unlike traditional shooter games. Does The Repopulation use projectile vector calculations, or are all of the abilities fired at the target and always hit as long as the player is "targeting" them?
The 53/47 number is given to show that there is no way to appeal to both sides completely, and while each side generally feels their side in that matter is the preference of most players, it's really very split.
This game was designed as an RPG though. Action Mode is something that was added later. I personally play in Action Mode. I prefer it. But I also feel that for a complex RPG that the RPG Mode is better for longevity. Action is exciting, but many MMO players have families they can't give their full concentration at all times. If there was a choice of one or the other it would have been RPG Mode, that's what was functional at the time.
That having been said after we first took the game to GDC we had quite a few players volleying for action combat. Knowing the numbers and the split, and the fact that pure action combat is harder on the server and more susceptible to cheating, we never seriously considered a full move. We discussed it quite a bit and decided it would not be a good decision. That having been said, since several among our staff, and quite a few players do prefer it we looked for a way that we could make the game more enjoyable to more action oriented players. And Action Mode was what we came up with.
If players can't enjoy a game if it isn't a full shooter, well there's not much we can do about that. That's their choice. But we feel pretty strongly that if you look at the two player types the solutions we have put in place will appeal to more players than if we had went to one or the other. That's because RPG Mode is at least half of the potential players, and what we have is full RPG Mode. The Action Mode on top of that will appeal to a good number of action oriented players. Certainly not all, but overall the combination of the two is the better choice, because RPG Mode fans generally aren't as accepting of FPS combat as the other way around. Primarily becuse of the concentration and twitch requirement.
https://www.therepopulation.com - Sci Fi Sandbox.
Be prepared for a disappointment.
It should be a illegal to use the words 'community' and 'mmo' in the same sentence anymore. The concept of a community left MMOs a long time ago, I'm afraid.
First off, yes, it is a dev. Secondly, yes, they do listen to their community (some AAA publishers should take note). That being said, you're making a horrible assumption when you say that by choosing action-oriented combat over tab-targeting you're putting yourself at a disadvantage. There are plenty of advantages to using action combat over tab targeting, especially when it comes to group combat. I think you might not be considering the advantages, and only looking at it from one perspective, someone gets auto aim and therefore I'm at a disadvantage. That may not be the case, and there are also steps that could be taken to further improve this, like you may not be bound by hit stats, etc. If you aim properly it'll hit. You don't seem to wonder any of this. Any commentary on how tab and action will be balanced?
Crazkanuk
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It works something like Tabula Rasa. Here's how it works:
- Line of Sight is required for most abilities, in both modes.
- All actions are using RPG abilities, cooldowns, under the hood it's pure RPG.
- When you go into Action Mode your controls go into mouselook mode like in a shooter. Left Mouse Button is used to perform a standard action (heal or attack depending on relationship to player), Right Mouse Button is used to perform a Momentum based attack or heal (momentum builds up slowly as positive things happen). Holding control with either mouse button modifies that ability performs a defensive action. It is similar to Tabula Rasa in that it is performing a raycast when you click on your target and then performing RPG calculations underneath the hood.
- You can still use action bar hotkeys when in action mode, if you do so it will use your last target. This makes it easier for action mode players to select specific actions without a gaming mouse or controller.
- You can toggle out of action mode using the middle mouse or whatever you bind it to at any time to go back to RPG mode. Any time a window that requires interaction is opened it places you into RPG Mode and then when the window is closed you go back into Action Mode.
https://www.therepopulation.com - Sci Fi Sandbox.
If you go hybrid (ie both half-assed) you lose both halves of your potential audience.
Would rather have half than nothing.
didnt hear anyone who like tab targeting (e.g. me) bitching about there being also aimed combat, so - no.
this
Whenever I played new Skyrim play-throughs, I would start out trying different builds. I started out with the Destruction Mage, or the Conjurer. I'd try the 1H dual wield or the 2H barbarian. I discovered that eventually, I always "evoloved" into a light armor, sneak style Marksman (Sniper). Why? Because I am best with that style of combat for Skyrim. I have gotten good enough with Skyrim's Archery mechanics that I don't even need Dragonrend anymore. I can snipe Dragons right out of the sky. And in some cases, with a Double Enchanted, Legendary Tempered, Enhanced Dwarven Crossbow, that means one-shotting a Dragon as it flies overhead. When you can do that, why does anything else need to be done? That is, except willfully and intentionally limiting yourself for the sake of experiencing something less effective.
The point of that was to say that "action combat" will tend to pull players (Well, speaking for myself anyway) towards a particular game style that works with them best. That sounds great, but it becomes a crutch. It tends to limit players more than they realize.
Either that, or you get systems where every class has similar abilities re-dressed to look differently.
The system you describe where players in RPG mode can just hit a button to activate headshot is just a horrible idea if in aim based mode a head shot only works when that ability is OFF COOLDOWN. That = No advantage to playing aim based.
You really could have something different, something many players in many guilds I've played with want. Instead your opting to make your game cater to the lowest common denominator.
I will wait for the next sandbox game that comes out that has combat with high skill ceiling and aim. If I wanted a tab targeted full loot game, I would play eve. Instead I choose to play Darkfall and Mortal Online because in those games when you win, generally you out played, out aimed, and had better timing than the other player.