Well tab targeting is only good if the game created an in depth combat system.An example is you SHOULD be able to miss ,there should be systems for offense and defensive abilities.Then there should be various weapon resistances,in other words some weapons do better damage versus certain types of armor or foes.If a game has no depth in the systems then it really doesn't matter what it does because it is a game i don't want to play.
The reason i also like tab targeting is in a mmorpg it just works you can do a lot more with the depth of the abilities and spells.In a game that requires aim your only focus is on the player not allowing for much in the way of scripted combat.Yes that works best but in a fps game that really only requires r/l mouse clicks and movement but a rpg can offer way more to combat than a fps can IF done right.
If we are talking simple pvp in a rpg,then i am simply not interested,it is a imo a dumb idea for a rpg because that means your focus has to be on pvp 24/7 which is not viable in a rpg where sometimes players just want to relax,again THAT design ONLY works in a fps where the only real reason you login is to pvp.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Aiming doesn't belong in an MMO. All it does it give a huge advantage in PvP to twitch kiddies. Makes it impossible for those with disabilities to even participate.
Plenty of other games to play if you need a twitch-fix.
What "belongs" in an MMO is what the majority of players demand, whether you like it or not.
Plenty of other games for you to play if you don't like where the genre is going.
Um, the majority of MMO's are tab-target of some form, so no idea what you're talking about.
Aiming doesn't belong in an MMO. All it does it give a huge advantage in PvP to twitch kiddies. Makes it impossible for those with disabilities to even participate.
Plenty of other games to play if you need a twitch-fix.
And why exactly is advantage a bad thing? So you want them to stop creating these games, just because some people have disabilities?
Twitch games are very specialized to action combat. They can focus the majority of their development on it. MMO's have to include so much more. They also have to be more inclusive. I was using the example of people with disabilities.
Aiming doesn't belong in an MMO. All it does it give a huge advantage in PvP to twitch kiddies. Makes it impossible for those with disabilities to even participate.
Plenty of other games to play if you need a twitch-fix.
Or perhaps there should actually be a game designed around said skill? Not every game has to be catered to you or other's disabilities, this isn't real life and you accessing something out of necessity. "Twitch kiddies" lol, what a condescending douche.
That's my point. Twitch games are focused on action. MMO's are focused on a thousand other things. Not only that, MMO's need healthy populations. Aiming automatically shrinks the player-base by a substantial amount.
What's next? You going to tell the NFL that they need to make the game and field wheelchair accessable to allow for handicapped players? Or perhaps you want the Olympic swimmers to tie one arm behind their back to allow a one-armed individual to 'have a chance.'
That makes no sense. MMO's need massive amounts of people to succeed. Aiming alienates a large portion of them.
Either you're good enough to compete or you're not. Playing against players is either reaction time or strategy, sometimes both. This is an example that reaction could win you the day and not simply because the other person is a walking shiny object fortress.
Aiming is too high on the reaction scale for almost any MMO to be successful.
Just played through the tutorial and must say both modes work quite well. Personally I liked the action mode a bit better but that might change if you have to farm spawns. Just left the tut so no clue how the real game works yet.
One question because I forgot to test that, does anyone know if the NPCs you fight use action or tab mode? I mean can you dodge shots by dancing around ?
edit: played a bit more and for farming I definitly prefer the RPG mode because NPCs use it too. You can dodge roll and gain a short time defence buff but they won't miss shots all the time.
Originally posted by Rhoklaw OP, I find it funny that you complain about tab targeting completely destroying the point of self aiming FPS style combat. Dude, let me explain something to you real quick There isn't one FPS style game on the market that doesn't have cheaters using aimbots to gain an advantage and guess what, it's obscenely common practice now. Which is exactly why I'll never buy another FPS game so long as this continues. So do us all a favor and stop pretending like you know everything about game development because FPS games are the WORST when it comes to legitimate gameplay.
QFT.
I'll still play FPS'ers but, much as i really enjoy playing Planetside 2, the game is rife with hackers, doesnt seem to matter how often you report them either, as fast as SOE gets rid of them, they come back again with new accounts by the look of it. Much as i like playing the game, when the hackers are about, i just have to log out and hope that the next time i try to play the game, their somewhere else.
Originally posted by Rhoklaw OP, I find it funny that you complain about tab targeting completely destroying the point of self aiming FPS style combat. Dude, let me explain something to you real quick There isn't one FPS style game on the market that doesn't have cheaters using aimbots to gain an advantage and guess what, it's obscenely common practice now. Which is exactly why I'll never buy another FPS game so long as this continues. So do us all a favor and stop pretending like you know everything about game development because FPS games are the WORST when it comes to legitimate gameplay.
Umm... just because the game is tab target, doesn't mean this game won't be "rife" with cheaters. Depending on how suspectiple the client code is, and how the client tells the server what is happening, will determine how much hacking, scrpiting, botting, and packet manipulation will go on in Repop. For instance, there may be a way to fake out the server the number of actions a person takes to instantly level a skill to 100 (not saying this exist btw). You seem to think aim botting is the only thing that is wrong with FPS games. Wait until you see the first speed hack or teleport hack.
Really, the only reason to want tab target in a game is because you prefer it. Saying "but hackers" is nothing more than a red herring. It makes it sound like you all wouldn't be able to compete in a game with full free aim. Which is fine, but you all really shouldn't be saying "but HACKS!"
Playing with the Third Person Shooter/ First Person Shooter/ Action Mode, what ever you want to call it, I like it a lot.
In many ways, I find it superior to tab target as far as skill management. I have created a brief highlight of how it utilizes your skills for you as opposed to requiring you to hit the macro hot-key. Is nice having contextual damage skills being triggered when off cool down by a simple click, as opposed to having to 'go through the rotation'.
4 Minute Highlight on the Firing Mode mixed with minor commentary on genetic engineering expectations:
Originally posted by Rhoklaw OP, I find it funny that you complain about tab targeting completely destroying the point of self aiming FPS style combat. Dude, let me explain something to you real quick There isn't one FPS style game on the market that doesn't have cheaters using aimbots to gain an advantage and guess what, it's obscenely common practice now. Which is exactly why I'll never buy another FPS game so long as this continues. So do us all a favor and stop pretending like you know everything about game development because FPS games are the WORST when it comes to legitimate gameplay.
I really am trying to understand your point but don't and think you're seeing a very narrow viewpoint on this. I have been playing mmo's for 12+ years, most of which have been tab targeting games. Every single MMO I've ever played has cheaters, just like every FPS game you mention has. I see no difference.
Secondly, you would really rather have simple, dumbed down combat rather than the chance of loosing to someone with an aimbot or cheat program? I'm sorry I just don't understand this. There are usually less that 1% of a games population that hack and they are constantly getting banned for it. It's always obvious and they always eventually get that ban.
Darkfall Unholy Wars an indy game with very little support and active GM's manage to keep away cheaters. Sure you may have ran into one a couple times, but the other 99% of your time you're enjoying the future of mmos. RPG skills/choices with fun, skill based FPS combat.
Originally posted by Rhoklaw OP, I find it funny that you complain about tab targeting completely destroying the point of self aiming FPS style combat. Dude, let me explain something to you real quick There isn't one FPS style game on the market that doesn't have cheaters using aimbots to gain an advantage and guess what, it's obscenely common practice now. Which is exactly why I'll never buy another FPS game so long as this continues. So do us all a favor and stop pretending like you know everything about game development because FPS games are the WORST when it comes to legitimate gameplay.
I really am trying to understand your point but don't and think you're seeing a very narrow viewpoint on this. I have been playing mmo's for 12+ years, most of which have been tab targeting games. Every single MMO I've ever played has cheaters, just like every FPS game you mention has. I see no difference.
Secondly, you would really rather have simple, dumbed down combat rather than the chance of loosing to someone with an aimbot or cheat program? I'm sorry I just don't understand this. There are usually less that 1% of a games population that hack and they are constantly getting banned for it. It's always obvious and they always eventually get that ban.
Darkfall Unholy Wars an indy game with very little support and active GM's manage to keep away cheaters. Sure you may have ran into one a couple times, but the other 99% of your time you're enjoying the future of mmos. RPG skills/choices with fun, skill based FPS combat.
+1
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
The Action vs. RPG mechanics are a tricky one for developers to solve. If you go pure Action, you lose half your potential audience. If you go pure RPG you lose half your potential audience.
If you go hybrid (ie both half-assed) you lose both halves of your potential audience.
Would rather have half than nothing.
I think you are right. One of the most frustrating things about the latest generation of games in general is that they try to often to be something for everyone, and end up just disappointing everyone.
As the gaming industry continues to grow, specifically mmos, I think developers need to shift their focus from trying to please as many people as possible, to just trying to fill a niche and catering to a specific audience.
Part of the problem is gamers too, you see it with every release. "This game doesn't have x, y, or z like another game I play, please add". If your old game was so perfect, why not just go back? Stop trying to make every new game a copy of one that already exists.
I think you're both forgetting not everyone is so rigid in what they'll play, maybe that's the Niche they're going for? Just because you see something that appears to be two sides on forums, Aimers vs tabbers... being this example.. doesn't mean there are actually two sides to worry about or build a base around. I don't mind action combat I don't mind Tab combat.. Both have their place, I see no reason why there can't be systems that offer something for both, Avearge gamers aren't so rigid in their preferences.I'm willing to bet the smallest niche are those who feel something has to be one way or the other, and can't meet in the middle..
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by Kyleran I'm glad for the option, getting sick of every new Mmorpg coming out with "action combat", need to keep that over in console games and out of virtual world MMORPGS.
Seconded. There are plenty of action combat MMOs out there. I love that Repopulation is giving players the option to play the way they like.
Darkfall, MO, Earth Rise (assuming the relaunch goes through), PS2, Fire Fall, Gloria Victus, LiF, DayZ, H1Z1, etc
Anyways, you guy really need to accept the fact that free aim in an MMORPG is a super niche demographic. If all you care about is COMBAT then play an FPS game because Repop is so much more that the fact that this is even a debate, considering Repop is probably the only 100% sandbox coming out with any real potential, is missing what the game is from the get go.
You are a plague to the darkfall forums Xpiher. Half those games aren't MMORPG. We have all discussed on the DF forums how bad MO, Earthrise, PS2, firefall, gloria victus are. LIF isn't even out of single player alpha yet let alone an mmo. Dayz is a lobby based survival shooter, H1z1 isnt out until Jan 15th. Darkfall is ruined by people like yourself and AV because they made Unholy wars. So yes we need more mmorpgs with fps combat preferably with sandbox features.
I agree Sandbox in mmos are indeed lacking, but mmos need to adapt past the simple tab target 123456 style of combat with either action combat or fps.
Originally posted by Kyleran I'm glad for the option, getting sick of every new Mmorpg coming out with "action combat", need to keep that over in console games and out of virtual world MMORPGS.
Seconded. There are plenty of action combat MMOs out there. I love that Repopulation is giving players the option to play the way they like.
Darkfall, MO, Earth Rise (assuming the relaunch goes through), PS2, Fire Fall, Gloria Victus, LiF, DayZ, H1Z1, etc
Anyways, you guy really need to accept the fact that free aim in an MMORPG is a super niche demographic. If all you care about is COMBAT then play an FPS game because Repop is so much more that the fact that this is even a debate, considering Repop is probably the only 100% sandbox coming out with any real potential, is missing what the game is from the get go.
You are a plague to the darkfall forums Xpiher. Half those games aren't MMORPG. We have all discussed on the DF forums how bad MO, Earthrise, PS2, firefall, gloria victus are. LIF isn't even out of single player alpha yet let alone an mmo. Dayz is a lobby based survival shooter, H1z1 isnt out until Jan 15th. Darkfall is ruined by people like yourself and AV because they made Unholy wars. So yes we need more mmorpgs with fps combat preferably with sandbox features.
I agree Sandbox in mmos are indeed lacking, but mmos need to adapt past the simple tab target 123456 style of combat with either action combat or fps.
1) I didn't get AV to make any of the changes between DFO and Unholy Wars. That was all on them when the population dropped over 50% between release and 3 months after NA launch.
2) Repop Plays better in action mode
3) I think we are in the minority for wanting a fully functional FPS like combat in an MMORPG. if you looked at the repop boards you'll see that those of us who wanted only action mode were heavily out numbered. Probably because most people who play MMOs aren't very good at FPS games.
4) There are games coming out that are suppose to offer the twitch MMOness we want.
Was very interested in this game thinking it would have competitive pvp like darkfall or mortal online because of its aiming features, but then found out you can also tab target and auto aim and never miss.
Why? How Does this make sense?
You have a game that could have the best mmorpg combat ever with its FPS combat, and include an option to tab target and never miss? So what would be the point of aiming and having a chance of missing and loosing a fight when you can just tab target and play it like WOW?
I really can't understand this. Was excited for a real sandbox mmorpg with good combat, but it looks like it was all a gimmick.
The argument for Tab target is :
More thought and less reaction or twitch.
Slower gameplay requires greater patience and maturity.
Less twicth requires greater knowledge of ones class
More class skills and deeper class development
Greater tactical combat
A more mature playerbase rather than one that needs constant excitement. Leaving the potential of a more mature and stable community
More skills on your combat bar which allows more combat options and more diverse rotations
Some people simply like calmer more thoughtful and tactical combat
Many players especially old time players simply do not like action combat or the players that like to play those games.
I think alot of people who just settle down to play an mmo don't want or need the constant "on edge" feeling of absent tab targeting. You have to pour alot more attention.. every time.. into every combat.. and that gets old for alot of people. I don't mind either way, but I know there are times I "just want" tab targeting, either because I haven't eaten enough sugar or smoked enough meth that day.
That was humor. I smoke enough meth every day.
That was more humor. I don't have days.
ok. I don't smoke meth and sometimes I'm bad at humor.
I agree with this completely. Well, except for the meth part . . . mostly.
Comments
Well tab targeting is only good if the game created an in depth combat system.An example is you SHOULD be able to miss ,there should be systems for offense and defensive abilities.Then there should be various weapon resistances,in other words some weapons do better damage versus certain types of armor or foes.If a game has no depth in the systems then it really doesn't matter what it does because it is a game i don't want to play.
The reason i also like tab targeting is in a mmorpg it just works you can do a lot more with the depth of the abilities and spells.In a game that requires aim your only focus is on the player not allowing for much in the way of scripted combat.Yes that works best but in a fps game that really only requires r/l mouse clicks and movement but a rpg can offer way more to combat than a fps can IF done right.
If we are talking simple pvp in a rpg,then i am simply not interested,it is a imo a dumb idea for a rpg because that means your focus has to be on pvp 24/7 which is not viable in a rpg where sometimes players just want to relax,again THAT design ONLY works in a fps where the only real reason you login is to pvp.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Um, the majority of MMO's are tab-target of some form, so no idea what you're talking about.
Twitch games are very specialized to action combat. They can focus the majority of their development on it. MMO's have to include so much more. They also have to be more inclusive. I was using the example of people with disabilities.
That's my point. Twitch games are focused on action. MMO's are focused on a thousand other things. Not only that, MMO's need healthy populations. Aiming automatically shrinks the player-base by a substantial amount.
That makes no sense. MMO's need massive amounts of people to succeed. Aiming alienates a large portion of them.
Aiming is too high on the reaction scale for almost any MMO to be successful.
Just played through the tutorial and must say both modes work quite well. Personally I liked the action mode a bit better but that might change if you have to farm spawns. Just left the tut so no clue how the real game works yet.
One question because I forgot to test that, does anyone know if the NPCs you fight use action or tab mode? I mean can you dodge shots by dancing around ?
edit: played a bit more and for farming I definitly prefer the RPG mode because NPCs use it too. You can dodge roll and gain a short time defence buff but they won't miss shots all the time.
QFT.
I'll still play FPS'ers but, much as i really enjoy playing Planetside 2, the game is rife with hackers, doesnt seem to matter how often you report them either, as fast as SOE gets rid of them, they come back again with new accounts by the look of it. Much as i like playing the game, when the hackers are about, i just have to log out and hope that the next time i try to play the game, their somewhere else.
Umm... just because the game is tab target, doesn't mean this game won't be "rife" with cheaters. Depending on how suspectiple the client code is, and how the client tells the server what is happening, will determine how much hacking, scrpiting, botting, and packet manipulation will go on in Repop. For instance, there may be a way to fake out the server the number of actions a person takes to instantly level a skill to 100 (not saying this exist btw). You seem to think aim botting is the only thing that is wrong with FPS games. Wait until you see the first speed hack or teleport hack.
Really, the only reason to want tab target in a game is because you prefer it. Saying "but hackers" is nothing more than a red herring. It makes it sound like you all wouldn't be able to compete in a game with full free aim. Which is fine, but you all really shouldn't be saying "but HACKS!"
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
Playing with the Third Person Shooter/ First Person Shooter/ Action Mode, what ever you want to call it, I like it a lot.
In many ways, I find it superior to tab target as far as skill management. I have created a brief highlight of how it utilizes your skills for you as opposed to requiring you to hit the macro hot-key. Is nice having contextual damage skills being triggered when off cool down by a simple click, as opposed to having to 'go through the rotation'.
4 Minute Highlight on the Firing Mode mixed with minor commentary on genetic engineering expectations:
http://www.twitch.tv/markelphoenix/c/5751222
Check out My Twitch Stream!
www.twitch.tv/markelphoenix
I really am trying to understand your point but don't and think you're seeing a very narrow viewpoint on this. I have been playing mmo's for 12+ years, most of which have been tab targeting games. Every single MMO I've ever played has cheaters, just like every FPS game you mention has. I see no difference.
Secondly, you would really rather have simple, dumbed down combat rather than the chance of loosing to someone with an aimbot or cheat program? I'm sorry I just don't understand this. There are usually less that 1% of a games population that hack and they are constantly getting banned for it. It's always obvious and they always eventually get that ban.
Darkfall Unholy Wars an indy game with very little support and active GM's manage to keep away cheaters. Sure you may have ran into one a couple times, but the other 99% of your time you're enjoying the future of mmos. RPG skills/choices with fun, skill based FPS combat.
+1
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I think you're both forgetting not everyone is so rigid in what they'll play, maybe that's the Niche they're going for? Just because you see something that appears to be two sides on forums, Aimers vs tabbers... being this example.. doesn't mean there are actually two sides to worry about or build a base around. I don't mind action combat I don't mind Tab combat.. Both have their place, I see no reason why there can't be systems that offer something for both, Avearge gamers aren't so rigid in their preferences.I'm willing to bet the smallest niche are those who feel something has to be one way or the other, and can't meet in the middle..
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You are a plague to the darkfall forums Xpiher. Half those games aren't MMORPG. We have all discussed on the DF forums how bad MO, Earthrise, PS2, firefall, gloria victus are. LIF isn't even out of single player alpha yet let alone an mmo. Dayz is a lobby based survival shooter, H1z1 isnt out until Jan 15th. Darkfall is ruined by people like yourself and AV because they made Unholy wars. So yes we need more mmorpgs with fps combat preferably with sandbox features.
I agree Sandbox in mmos are indeed lacking, but mmos need to adapt past the simple tab target 123456 style of combat with either action combat or fps.
1) I didn't get AV to make any of the changes between DFO and Unholy Wars. That was all on them when the population dropped over 50% between release and 3 months after NA launch.
2) Repop Plays better in action mode
3) I think we are in the minority for wanting a fully functional FPS like combat in an MMORPG. if you looked at the repop boards you'll see that those of us who wanted only action mode were heavily out numbered. Probably because most people who play MMOs aren't very good at FPS games.
4) There are games coming out that are suppose to offer the twitch MMOness we want.
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
The argument for Tab target is :
More thought and less reaction or twitch.
Slower gameplay requires greater patience and maturity.
Less twicth requires greater knowledge of ones class
More class skills and deeper class development
Greater tactical combat
A more mature playerbase rather than one that needs constant excitement. Leaving the potential of a more mature and stable community
More skills on your combat bar which allows more combat options and more diverse rotations
Some people simply like calmer more thoughtful and tactical combat
Many players especially old time players simply do not like action combat or the players that like to play those games.
I agree with this completely. Well, except for the meth part . . . mostly.