Originally posted by filmoret You think it has to do with the fact that you can just plug in and get fighting? In mmo's you have to actually build a character and gear before you can start fighting. Or maybe mmo's don't concentrate enough on the pvp gamer that they just goto the moba instead? But we cannot say that about GW series or ESO,WOW,RIFT,SWTOR can we.
Nope, it is all about the ADHD generation. They can be assed with something that does not deliver instant saticefaction on the action front, and right now, they are the ones with most time on thier hands to play games. Simple as that.
This argument is preposterous.
A. Oldschool PVPers played Star Control 2, Archon, Chess, Street Fighter 2 (and countless early fighting games), Starcraft 1 (if not Warcraft: Orcs & Humans), DOOM, and more, and none of these games involved arbitrary unnecessary timesinks. You jumped in, and you PVPed, and that was it. So this is not a generational thing. if anything, it's a generational thing for post-MMORPG gaming that it even became acceptable to a minority that some games had substantial, unnecessary timesinks. (And most of those timesinks are rooted in the designs of the original business model of securing player subscriptions.)
B. When it comes to entertainment, delaying satisfaction has almost zero benefits and some very clear disadvantages. Next you're going to tell me I'm ADHD for wanting my car to start instantly. Yes, I want my product to provide what it's supposed to provide instantly without unnecessary delays. Of course I want that -- only a fool wouldn't want that.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by Axehilt Originally posted by vveaverbut in LoL you still need to grind like a madman to be competitive. First just to level your base talentpoints, then to learn every possible character you could face. Thats on par with any mmo grind, its just a different grind.Even street fighter 4 expects you to do massive grinding just to learn the basics of the combo system.And don't try to tell me people who play FPS don't grind, FPS players grind even harder then many mmo players do.
Practicing to improve one's own skill isn't grinding.
Grinding is about some artificial game mechanic the game imposes on players.
I'd say that is a half truth. There is a barrier of entry into ranked LoL and it requires a very large time investment that for many would feel like a grind. Grind definitely implies you are not having fun as well though. Just leveling up in a MMORPG is not a grind unless you find it unpleasant. When I find things unpleasant I stop doing them personally, which is why I am not playing ranked LoL~.
I'm looking at twitch.tv and seeing that this probably represents the gaming market to some degree. IE viewers would represent an actual % of players who are currently playing these games. It's hard to say these people are more inclined to watch twitch streams about esports instead of their favorite mmo. Now before I go into the numbers we realize that any new game automatically has a ton of viewers because its brand spanking new and they are just checking it out. These games will fall into place within a month or so.
So why would people rather play a moba PVP game then the Moba style instance pvp that MMO's offer?
Why would they rather play moba's over massive war games like ESO or GW2 or Planetside?
You're doing guesswrok.
Twitch is NOT, and never has been a reliable source for discussions on gaming populations. Nor gamer preferences. While twitch primarily features games, what is popular on twitch is not correlated to what has the most players. While there are sometimes overlaps between the two sets of data, what makes a twitch stream popular often has little to do with the game, and much more to do with how entertaining the streamers are to watch.
There are some exceptions. One of the reasons new games are so popular on twitch is because it's common for people to check them out before buying. Or in some cases, they would rather watch someone play through the storyline rather than buy the game themselves.
As for MOBAs, they are entertaining to watch. Especially when there's a big event going on (which is often), like a big tournament for example. While League is definitely one of the most popular games on the market currently, it also has a sizeable amount of people who watch the game, but don't really play.
- As for preferences. I know for a fact that most MOBA players aren't exclusive. Many play other games, including MMOs. As far which games PvPers prefer, they prefer games with good PvP. And as much hate as MOBAs tend to get, they have some of the best fantasy pvp on the market, sadly. A lot of people who try MOBAs don't make it passed the entry levels of the game. They never get based the basic "what does my god do?" and get into all the strategy and nuances of these games.
Those that do find themselves with a double-sided experience. One the one hand there is a ton of strategy to these games, as well as varying degrees of skill required (depending on game and character). Which can be a lot of fun. On the other hand, you have a random chance of being paired up with teammates who understand none of this, and instead just press buttons all game. This is infuriating to deal with, but sadly there is only so much that can be done to combat this and still have a playable game.
*** There are still millions of PvPers that prefer shooters, there are some that prefer MMOs, there are some that prefer CCGs, there are some that prefer RTS, and there are some that prefer fighters.
Now can we please stop using Twitch like it's reliable for anything other than viewer count?
I'm looking at twitch.tv and seeing that this probably represents the gaming market to some degree. IE viewers would represent an actual % of players who are currently playing these games. It's hard to say these people are more inclined to watch twitch streams about esports instead of their favorite mmo. Now before I go into the numbers we realize that any new game automatically has a ton of viewers because its brand spanking new and they are just checking it out. These games will fall into place within a month or so.
So why would people rather play a moba PVP game then the Moba style instance pvp that MMO's offer?
Why would they rather play moba's over massive war games like ESO or GW2 or Planetside?
You're doing guesswrok.
Twitch is NOT, and never has been a reliable source for discussions on gaming populations. Nor gamer preferences. While twitch primarily features games, what is popular on twitch is not correlated to what has the most players. While there are sometimes overlaps between the two sets of data, what makes a twitch stream popular often has little to do with the game, and much more to do with how entertaining the streamers are to watch.
There are some exceptions. One of the reasons new games are so popular on twitch is because it's common for people to check them out before buying. Or in some cases, they would rather watch someone play through the storyline rather than buy the game themselves.
As for MOBAs, they are entertaining to watch. Especially when there's a big event going on (which is often), like a big tournament for example. While League is definitely one of the most popular games on the market currently, it also has a sizeable amount of people who watch the game, but don't really play.
- As for preferences. I know for a fact that most MOBA players aren't exclusive. Many play other games, including MMOs. As far which games PvPers prefer, they prefer games with good PvP. And as much hate as MOBAs tend to get, they have some of the best fantasy pvp on the market, sadly. A lot of people who try MOBAs don't make it passed the entry levels of the game. They never get based the basic "what does my god do?" and get into all the strategy and nuances of these games.
Those that do find themselves with a double-sided experience. One the one hand there is a ton of strategy to these games, as well as varying degrees of skill required (depending on game and character). Which can be a lot of fun. On the other hand, you have a random chance of being paired up with teammates who understand none of this, and instead just press buttons all game. This is infuriating to deal with, but sadly there is only so much that can be done to combat this and still have a playable game.
*** There are still millions of PvPers that prefer shooters, there are some that prefer MMOs, there are some that prefer CCGs, there are some that prefer RTS, and there are some that prefer fighters.
Now can we please stop using Twitch like it's reliable for anything other than viewer count?
100k people watching people play a game doesn't have any bearing on the popularity of that game? yea that makes sense.
I'd say that is a half truth. There is a barrier of entry into ranked LoL and it requires a very large time investment that for many would feel like a grind. Grind definitely implies you are not having fun as well though. Just leveling up in a MMORPG is not a grind unless you find it unpleasant. When I find things unpleasant I stop doing them personally, which is why I am not playing ranked LoL~.
Well the arbitrary barriers to entry (talent accumulation and level 30 requirement) are definitely grinds.
The skill barrier to entry isn't a grind; it's just practice.
I guess I'd be in favor of removing both unnecessary grinds though. Starting everyone with max talent points would be great (start them with 3 premade templates), and there's no reason ranked play couldn't be available to new accounts. You'd still need a good way of filtering out "bad" accounts from good ones especially early on, and there are probably other edge cases that the level requirement elegantly fixes too, but I'm sure none of it is unworkable. It's not like there aren't perfectly functional ELO-based games out there that let new accounts get created and immediately jump into ranked play.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
PVP'er is someone who actually wants to fight against another player. PKiller is someone who just wants to kill someone without getting any fight out of them.
I'm looking at twitch.tv and seeing that this probably represents the gaming market to some degree. IE viewers would represent an actual % of players who are currently playing these games. It's hard to say these people are more inclined to watch twitch streams about esports instead of their favorite mmo. Now before I go into the numbers we realize that any new game automatically has a ton of viewers because its brand spanking new and they are just checking it out. These games will fall into place within a month or so.
So why would people rather play a moba PVP game then the Moba style instance pvp that MMO's offer?
Why would they rather play moba's over massive war games like ESO or GW2 or Planetside?
You're doing guesswrok.
Twitch is NOT, and never has been a reliable source for discussions on gaming populations. Nor gamer preferences. While twitch primarily features games, what is popular on twitch is not correlated to what has the most players. While there are sometimes overlaps between the two sets of data, what makes a twitch stream popular often has little to do with the game, and much more to do with how entertaining the streamers are to watch.
There are some exceptions. One of the reasons new games are so popular on twitch is because it's common for people to check them out before buying. Or in some cases, they would rather watch someone play through the storyline rather than buy the game themselves.
As for MOBAs, they are entertaining to watch. Especially when there's a big event going on (which is often), like a big tournament for example. While League is definitely one of the most popular games on the market currently, it also has a sizeable amount of people who watch the game, but don't really play.
- As for preferences. I know for a fact that most MOBA players aren't exclusive. Many play other games, including MMOs. As far which games PvPers prefer, they prefer games with good PvP. And as much hate as MOBAs tend to get, they have some of the best fantasy pvp on the market, sadly. A lot of people who try MOBAs don't make it passed the entry levels of the game. They never get based the basic "what does my god do?" and get into all the strategy and nuances of these games.
Those that do find themselves with a double-sided experience. One the one hand there is a ton of strategy to these games, as well as varying degrees of skill required (depending on game and character). Which can be a lot of fun. On the other hand, you have a random chance of being paired up with teammates who understand none of this, and instead just press buttons all game. This is infuriating to deal with, but sadly there is only so much that can be done to combat this and still have a playable game.
*** There are still millions of PvPers that prefer shooters, there are some that prefer MMOs, there are some that prefer CCGs, there are some that prefer RTS, and there are some that prefer fighters.
Now can we please stop using Twitch like it's reliable for anything other than viewer count?
100k people watching people play a game doesn't have any bearing on the popularity of that game? yea that makes sense.
Read the full post and maybe not cherry pick tidpits you can make snide comments off of?
What is popular on twitch is not CORRELATED to population numbers in real life. For example, if you can get a million people watching pewdiepie googling random crap on the internet, does that mean that most people prefer to google random crap on the internet instead of playing games? Of course it doesn't. It means that those people find pewdiepie entertaining enough to watch him do mindless stuff on the internet.
If we were talking about whether or not League of Legends is a popular game, we wouldn't be having this discussion. It is a popular game, it's one of the most popular games at this time. If the discussion was about whether or not PvP games are more popular on twich, we wouldn't be having this discussion either. But it's not.
You've basically posted a list of (average viewer counts) you basically pulled out of your own mind, realized that LoL is one of the most popular games on twitch, and now are trying to tie that to the topic of what PvPers prefer. We're not even talking about League players anymore, but all PvPers based on your own topic. Twitch can sometimes be a baseline idea for what's popular, but trying to show preference amongst demographics is another thing entirely. First you need to establish the demographic (i.e. is a 'PvPer' everyone who's ever touched a PvP game? What about the people who play league against bots? Are they still PvPers?), then you need to distinguish choice (i.e. this group has tried these games and most have stuck with this game). You've done none of that.
Please show me some actual data that supports a correlation between twitch views and player gaming preferences and I will be astonished. Maybe I was wrong, and there actually were thousands of people playing Shantae during the last AGDQ. Until then, I'm going to stick with what I have found to be true. That viewer counts are their own beast entirely. That there are infact people who watch games they do not play, and that while you can make lucky guesses based on what's popular, it does not mean that everything that's popular follows that same trend.
Originally posted by cribett PVP'er here can't stand Mobas
Are you sure you're a PvPer? Maybe you're a PKer?
I'm a big time PVP'er and I find myself in the same boat.
Started out with LoL, and ultimately it bored me to the point of yawn attacks followed by inevitable tears. However, I gave the MOBA scene another go with some like minded friends who explained LoL is "god awful", come on over with your laptop for some Dota2. While definitely the better game, it didn't take long for me to experience the same symptoms. All I kept saying was "when is this going to end? How much longer? Do you guys really like this, or are you all just punking me?".
On paper MOBAs should be right up my alley, but things just did not pan out that way.
Great game Dota2, I want to love it, but it simply puts me to sleep.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Originally posted by Axehilt Originally posted by Ender4I'd say that is a half truth. There is a barrier of entry into ranked LoL and it requires a very large time investment that for many would feel like a grind. Grind definitely implies you are not having fun as well though. Just leveling up in a MMORPG is not a grind unless you find it unpleasant. When I find things unpleasant I stop doing them personally, which is why I am not playing ranked LoL~.
Well the arbitrary barriers to entry (talent accumulation and level 30 requirement) are definitely grinds.
The skill barrier to entry isn't a grind; it's just practice.
I still think that is a half truth. I know I could become a very strong SC2 player with this next expansion but I skipped the last one and got bored of the first game pretty fast. I have friends who will buy it and play at a high level right away because they have been playing all this time. For me the process of getting my skills back to a top notch so that I can play with my friends without dragging them down is such a grind I will likely skip it. Practice can still most certainly be a grind.
Originally posted by Ender4I'd say that is a half truth. There is a barrier of entry into ranked LoL and it requires a very large time investment that for many would feel like a grind. Grind definitely implies you are not having fun as well though. Just leveling up in a MMORPG is not a grind unless you find it unpleasant. When I find things unpleasant I stop doing them personally, which is why I am not playing ranked LoL~.
Well the arbitrary barriers to entry (talent accumulation and level 30 requirement) are definitely grinds.
The skill barrier to entry isn't a grind; it's just practice.
I still think that is a half truth. I know I could become a very strong SC2 player with this next expansion but I skipped the last one and got bored of the first game pretty fast. I have friends who will buy it and play at a high level right away because they have been playing all this time. For me the process of getting my skills back to a top notch so that I can play with my friends without dragging them down is such a grind I will likely skip it. Practice can still most certainly be a grind.
Both excellent points.
While there is something to be said about the barrier imposed by most gear-gated MMOs that try and have PvP, there is also a grind when it comes to 'skill' or 'rank' in some PvP games.
For example in MOBAs getting yourself to a high rank is as much luck as it is skill. Once you get to a certain skill level it becomes nearly impossible to carry a team of idiots on your back, without the other team throwing terribly. At that point it becomes a necessity that you have at least some teammates you can rely on, and this is based in some part by randomness. At this point it becomes a grind to get enough MMR (elo) to get your rank up high enough to avoid those kinds of matches.
Furthermore, when practicing a new character there is an average amount of time it takes most peope to 'master' something. You need a certain amount of play time to get certain skills into your muscle memory, to make them instinct, and you need to keep exercising those skills to maintain those reactions, that comfort level. While this may be easy for characters you particularly enjoy, when PvPing in MOBAs especially it becomes necessary at some point to learn certain characters you may not enjoy, because they are either 'meta', or they counter a particular problem currently.
I'm apparently in the same boat as many others in this thread. I love PvP, but I HATE MOBAs. DAoC is what made me fall in love with PvP, and I'll pvp in mmos, but right now I play War Thunder Air Battles to get my pvp kicks.
I still enjoy mmo pvp from time to time, but I much prefer games like War Thunder or a FPS game where things are more or less equal, but some advantages can be found (like getting someone in a boom n zoom plane to turn fight with me while I am in a Zero).
100k people watching people play a game doesn't have any bearing on the popularity of that game? yea that makes sense.
Well correlation isn't causation, and observation isn't the same activity as participation.*
That said, it's still quite clear that casual PVP (like MMO PVP) is nowhere near as popular as skill-centric PVP (like MOBA, RTS, FPS, Fighting, etc) So even though viewership doesn't automatically indicate game popularity, it doesn't change the fact that MMO PVP isn't very popular.
(* I've played thousands upon thousand of hours of WOW and streamed almost nothing. Conversely I've watched hundreds of hours of SC2, but played almost no multiplayer.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by filmoret100k people watching people play a game doesn't have any bearing on the popularity of that game? yea that makes sense.
Well correlation isn't causation, and observation isn't the same activity as participation.*
That said, it's still quite clear that casual PVP (like MMO PVP) is nowhere near as popular as skill-centric PVP (like MOBA, RTS, FPS, Fighting, etc) So even though viewership doesn't automatically indicate game popularity, it doesn't change the fact that MMO PVP isn't very popular.
(* I've played thousands upon thousand of hours of WOW and streamed almost nothing. Conversely I've watched hundreds of hours of SC2, but played almost no multiplayer.)
I don't know that this is accurate either. The big issue with MMORPG PvP and streaming is you really can't see what is happening. Too many buttons, too many moves that can be done by players and there aren't any real breaks. Also the only game with a big enough playerbase to matter is WoW and well, who cares about WoW anymore~. Even when I did spend a lot of time following the PvP scene I didn't watch streams of it because they just aren't very interesting and they aren't even that useful as a learning tool.
MMORPG combat just doesn't lend itself to streaming very well, whether it be PvP or PvE to be honest.
100k people watching people play a game doesn't have any bearing on the popularity of that game? yea that makes sense.
Well correlation isn't causation, and observation isn't the same activity as participation.*
That is a stretch. Observation is not a measure of popularity? How about play football? How many watch it? Football is not popular in the US, by your logic?
The first I heard about PvP as a term was in MMOs. I had been playing competitive videogames before, but they were never referred to as PvP games. So for me... PvP is in MMOs and other games are different.
Fast forward to now there's ...arena PvP... open world PvP and others. Both of those are very different and serve a completely different purpose. They also attract completely different players.
Arena PvP is centered around fair and paced matchups highly based on active skill as character preparation is usually done for you.
Open world PvP is about immersion and freedom... fair isn't guaranteed, the pace is not guaranteed, active skills may be present, but how you prepare you character in a passive (gear/abilities) sense is also present.
I can tell you now... Arena PvP players who love eSports do not like Open world PvP games and vice versa. That's if you label everything as "PvP". Now they might find each fun, but for different reasons. Like me. I'm okay with Arena PvP (Nosgoth), but Open world PvP is what I love and what I actually seek. Nosgoth is just a quick game with interesting gameplay. It isn't really an experience like open world pvp.
I'm looking at twitch.tv and seeing that this probably represents the gaming market to some degree. IE viewers would represent an actual % of players who are currently playing these games. It's hard to say these people are more inclined to watch twitch streams about esports instead of their favorite mmo.
I think you're leaving out a few factors that help to explain viewership.
MOBAs often link directly to and showcase their PVP streamers. For example, on both the SMITE page and in the game client there are direct links to streamers.
MOBA streamers often have commentating or explanation of what's going on. MMO PVP streamers seem to just blast the most obnoxious thrash metal they can find.
MOBA UIs and ingame feedback (a/v responses to actions and results) are designed to tell the player more about what's going on in the arena/area/match whereas MMOs rarely expand out like that in their PVP and battlegrounds, relegating the feedback to the player to primarily what the player is doing. In short, cryptic and boring for viewers.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I'm a hardcore pvp gamer who spends 90% of his gaming time in pvp. I've played over 20 mmo's and I've never played nor will I play a moba. I will always play open world pvp as it the most realistic form of pvp any game has come up with.
Haxus Council Member 21 year MMO veteran PvP Raid Leader Lover of The Witcher & CD Projekt Red
Originally posted by Mithrundir I'm a hardcore pvp gamer who spends 90% of his gaming time in pvp. I've played over 20 mmo's and I've never played nor will I play a moba.
Like I said, MOBAs, not for me. But, some of my long time MMO RL friends can't seem to stop playing Dota2. Never say never.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
That is a stretch. Observation is not a measure of popularity? How about play football? How many watch it? Football is not popular in the US, by your logic?
It's not a stretch. It's logic.
By my logic, I would measure the popularity of playing football by measuring the number of people playing football.
By your logic, you would measure the number of murderers by the number of people watching media's coverage of murders. Which would result in accurate statements like "87% of Americans are murderers."
Observation is certainly a type of popularity, but what I'm interested in most as a gamer is the popularity of playing a given game. As a gamer, I spend way more time playing games than watching them. As a game developer, observability is certainly more interesting to know about, but I'm pretty well-versed in what makes for good watchability.
Except survival games. Those stump me. Games where over 90% of the game is spent without gameplay (endlessly running through rooms searching for garbage.) Who wants to play that, let alone watch it? H1Z1 and DayZ seem devoid of interesting gameplay, yet their developers seem to be laughing all the way to the bank (because developing that kind of content is cheap!) A handful of them legitimately do have enough gameplay or variety (like construction) to be fun (Don't Starve, Dying Light, and maybe Rust. Big maybe on that last one though.) But the most popular ones are inexplicably the least fun looking.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by filmoret PVP'er is someone who actually wants to fight against another player. PKiller is someone who just wants to kill someone without getting any fight out of them.
Um killing w/o being killed is the entire point. You do what you can do to minimize risk of being killed. As a pvpr I fully expect the next guy to do the same to me.
This is something you anti-pvp type will never understand. It's nothing personal, I don't even know you. It's combat.
Originally posted by cribett PVP'er here can't stand Mobas
Are you sure you're a PvPer? Maybe you're a PKer?
I'm a big time PVP'er and I find myself in the same boat.
Started out with LoL, and ultimately it bored me to the point of yawn attacks followed by inevitable tears. However, I gave the MOBA scene another go with some like minded friends who explained LoL is "god awful", come on over with your laptop for some Dota2. While definitely the better game, it didn't take long for me to experience the same symptoms. All I kept saying was "when is this going to end? How much longer? Do you guys really like this, or are you all just punking me?".
On paper MOBAs should be right up my alley, but things just did not pan out that way.
Great game Dota2, I want to love it, but it simply puts me to sleep.
Well maybe you don't like LoL or Dota, but you'd rather play Star Conflict, World of Tanks, World of Warplanes or War Thunder? Or some FPSes and RTS games? Competitive PVP is not restricted to MOBAs, but any PvPer will choose any MOBA over most PvP in MMORPGs.
You're not challenging yourself if all you do is hunt players who are not expecting a fight or don't want to fight, kill characters lower level than you, or smaller groups than yours. And if one side isn't completely brain dead, the side which has more people on it nearly always wins. The impact of player skill is diminished.
"We got some great kills tonight?" Yeah, well, you jumped on someone who wasn't opted for PvP (they had PvE builds) with superior numbers. Where is the challenge? What is the point? There isn't even much of a risk involved if you care about that stuff. Would you call yourself a PvPer over this?
Nah, if you like this and competitive PvP turns you off, you're a PKer not a PvPer.
Also, the way your friends describe LoL as "god awful" and jump into Dota... I think they might be fanboys. Sorry. Preference aside, those two games are very similar. If you don't like the one, there's a good chance you won't like the other either.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
That is a stretch. Observation is not a measure of popularity? How about play football? How many watch it? Football is not popular in the US, by your logic?
It's not a stretch. It's logic.
By my logic, I would measure the popularity of playing football by measuring the number of people playing football.
By your logic, you would measure the number of murderers by the number of people watching media's coverage of murders. Which would result in accurate statements like "87% of Americans are murderers."
Observation is certainly a type of popularity, but what I'm interested in most as a gamer is the popularity of playing a given game. As a gamer, I spend way more time playing games than watching them. As a game developer, observability is certainly more interesting to know about, but I'm pretty well-versed in what makes for good watchability.
Except survival games. Those stump me. Games where over 90% of the game is spent without gameplay (endlessly running through rooms searching for garbage.) Who wants to play that, let alone watch it? H1Z1 and DayZ seem devoid of interesting gameplay, yet their developers seem to be laughing all the way to the bank (because developing that kind of content is cheap!) A handful of them legitimately do have enough gameplay or variety (like construction) to be fun (Don't Starve, Dying Light, and maybe Rust. Big maybe on that last one though.) But the most popular ones are inexplicably the least fun looking.
Having played soccer for many years, I still can't watch it from TV. It is definitely one of those games you want to play, but don't want to watch. I'd much rather watch ice hockey instead, and I haven't played much hockey.
I agree on your point about survival games too.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Originally posted by filmoret PVP'er is someone who actually wants to fight against another player. PKiller is someone who just wants to kill someone without getting any fight out of them.
Um killing w/o being killed is the entire point. You do what you can do to minimize risk of being killed. As a pvpr I fully expect the next guy to do the same to me.
This is something you anti-pvp type will never understand. It's nothing personal, I don't even know you. It's combat.
You are killing for the sake of killing or loot. Not for the sake of contest or to test your abilities. It is more like kicking a downed old man beside the road with your friends for his wallet than combat.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Comments
This argument is preposterous.
A. Oldschool PVPers played Star Control 2, Archon, Chess, Street Fighter 2 (and countless early fighting games), Starcraft 1 (if not Warcraft: Orcs & Humans), DOOM, and more, and none of these games involved arbitrary unnecessary timesinks. You jumped in, and you PVPed, and that was it. So this is not a generational thing. if anything, it's a generational thing for post-MMORPG gaming that it even became acceptable to a minority that some games had substantial, unnecessary timesinks. (And most of those timesinks are rooted in the designs of the original business model of securing player subscriptions.)
B. When it comes to entertainment, delaying satisfaction has almost zero benefits and some very clear disadvantages. Next you're going to tell me I'm ADHD for wanting my car to start instantly. Yes, I want my product to provide what it's supposed to provide instantly without unnecessary delays. Of course I want that -- only a fool wouldn't want that.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Grinding is about some artificial game mechanic the game imposes on players.
I'd say that is a half truth. There is a barrier of entry into ranked LoL and it requires a very large time investment that for many would feel like a grind. Grind definitely implies you are not having fun as well though. Just leveling up in a MMORPG is not a grind unless you find it unpleasant. When I find things unpleasant I stop doing them personally, which is why I am not playing ranked LoL~.
You're doing guesswrok.
Twitch is NOT, and never has been a reliable source for discussions on gaming populations. Nor gamer preferences. While twitch primarily features games, what is popular on twitch is not correlated to what has the most players. While there are sometimes overlaps between the two sets of data, what makes a twitch stream popular often has little to do with the game, and much more to do with how entertaining the streamers are to watch.
There are some exceptions. One of the reasons new games are so popular on twitch is because it's common for people to check them out before buying. Or in some cases, they would rather watch someone play through the storyline rather than buy the game themselves.
As for MOBAs, they are entertaining to watch. Especially when there's a big event going on (which is often), like a big tournament for example. While League is definitely one of the most popular games on the market currently, it also has a sizeable amount of people who watch the game, but don't really play.
- As for preferences. I know for a fact that most MOBA players aren't exclusive. Many play other games, including MMOs. As far which games PvPers prefer, they prefer games with good PvP. And as much hate as MOBAs tend to get, they have some of the best fantasy pvp on the market, sadly. A lot of people who try MOBAs don't make it passed the entry levels of the game. They never get based the basic "what does my god do?" and get into all the strategy and nuances of these games.
Those that do find themselves with a double-sided experience. One the one hand there is a ton of strategy to these games, as well as varying degrees of skill required (depending on game and character). Which can be a lot of fun. On the other hand, you have a random chance of being paired up with teammates who understand none of this, and instead just press buttons all game. This is infuriating to deal with, but sadly there is only so much that can be done to combat this and still have a playable game.
*** There are still millions of PvPers that prefer shooters, there are some that prefer MMOs, there are some that prefer CCGs, there are some that prefer RTS, and there are some that prefer fighters.
Now can we please stop using Twitch like it's reliable for anything other than viewer count?
100k people watching people play a game doesn't have any bearing on the popularity of that game? yea that makes sense.
Well the arbitrary barriers to entry (talent accumulation and level 30 requirement) are definitely grinds.
The skill barrier to entry isn't a grind; it's just practice.
I guess I'd be in favor of removing both unnecessary grinds though. Starting everyone with max talent points would be great (start them with 3 premade templates), and there's no reason ranked play couldn't be available to new accounts. You'd still need a good way of filtering out "bad" accounts from good ones especially early on, and there are probably other edge cases that the level requirement elegantly fixes too, but I'm sure none of it is unworkable. It's not like there aren't perfectly functional ELO-based games out there that let new accounts get created and immediately jump into ranked play.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I'm confused..
What's the difference? I thought PK'er meant Player Killer, which essentially is the same thing as a PvP'er...
Read the full post and maybe not cherry pick tidpits you can make snide comments off of?
What is popular on twitch is not CORRELATED to population numbers in real life. For example, if you can get a million people watching pewdiepie googling random crap on the internet, does that mean that most people prefer to google random crap on the internet instead of playing games? Of course it doesn't. It means that those people find pewdiepie entertaining enough to watch him do mindless stuff on the internet.
If we were talking about whether or not League of Legends is a popular game, we wouldn't be having this discussion. It is a popular game, it's one of the most popular games at this time. If the discussion was about whether or not PvP games are more popular on twich, we wouldn't be having this discussion either. But it's not.
You've basically posted a list of (average viewer counts) you basically pulled out of your own mind, realized that LoL is one of the most popular games on twitch, and now are trying to tie that to the topic of what PvPers prefer. We're not even talking about League players anymore, but all PvPers based on your own topic. Twitch can sometimes be a baseline idea for what's popular, but trying to show preference amongst demographics is another thing entirely. First you need to establish the demographic (i.e. is a 'PvPer' everyone who's ever touched a PvP game? What about the people who play league against bots? Are they still PvPers?), then you need to distinguish choice (i.e. this group has tried these games and most have stuck with this game). You've done none of that.
Please show me some actual data that supports a correlation between twitch views and player gaming preferences and I will be astonished. Maybe I was wrong, and there actually were thousands of people playing Shantae during the last AGDQ. Until then, I'm going to stick with what I have found to be true. That viewer counts are their own beast entirely. That there are infact people who watch games they do not play, and that while you can make lucky guesses based on what's popular, it does not mean that everything that's popular follows that same trend.
I'm a big time PVP'er and I find myself in the same boat.
Started out with LoL, and ultimately it bored me to the point of yawn attacks followed by inevitable tears. However, I gave the MOBA scene another go with some like minded friends who explained LoL is "god awful", come on over with your laptop for some Dota2. While definitely the better game, it didn't take long for me to experience the same symptoms. All I kept saying was "when is this going to end? How much longer? Do you guys really like this, or are you all just punking me?".
On paper MOBAs should be right up my alley, but things just did not pan out that way.
Great game Dota2, I want to love it, but it simply puts me to sleep.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
The skill barrier to entry isn't a grind; it's just practice.
I still think that is a half truth. I know I could become a very strong SC2 player with this next expansion but I skipped the last one and got bored of the first game pretty fast. I have friends who will buy it and play at a high level right away because they have been playing all this time. For me the process of getting my skills back to a top notch so that I can play with my friends without dragging them down is such a grind I will likely skip it. Practice can still most certainly be a grind.
Both excellent points.
While there is something to be said about the barrier imposed by most gear-gated MMOs that try and have PvP, there is also a grind when it comes to 'skill' or 'rank' in some PvP games.
For example in MOBAs getting yourself to a high rank is as much luck as it is skill. Once you get to a certain skill level it becomes nearly impossible to carry a team of idiots on your back, without the other team throwing terribly. At that point it becomes a necessity that you have at least some teammates you can rely on, and this is based in some part by randomness. At this point it becomes a grind to get enough MMR (elo) to get your rank up high enough to avoid those kinds of matches.
Furthermore, when practicing a new character there is an average amount of time it takes most peope to 'master' something. You need a certain amount of play time to get certain skills into your muscle memory, to make them instinct, and you need to keep exercising those skills to maintain those reactions, that comfort level. While this may be easy for characters you particularly enjoy, when PvPing in MOBAs especially it becomes necessary at some point to learn certain characters you may not enjoy, because they are either 'meta', or they counter a particular problem currently.
I'm apparently in the same boat as many others in this thread. I love PvP, but I HATE MOBAs. DAoC is what made me fall in love with PvP, and I'll pvp in mmos, but right now I play War Thunder Air Battles to get my pvp kicks.
I still enjoy mmo pvp from time to time, but I much prefer games like War Thunder or a FPS game where things are more or less equal, but some advantages can be found (like getting someone in a boom n zoom plane to turn fight with me while I am in a Zero).
Well correlation isn't causation, and observation isn't the same activity as participation.*
That said, it's still quite clear that casual PVP (like MMO PVP) is nowhere near as popular as skill-centric PVP (like MOBA, RTS, FPS, Fighting, etc) So even though viewership doesn't automatically indicate game popularity, it doesn't change the fact that MMO PVP isn't very popular.
(* I've played thousands upon thousand of hours of WOW and streamed almost nothing. Conversely I've watched hundreds of hours of SC2, but played almost no multiplayer.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I don't know that this is accurate either. The big issue with MMORPG PvP and streaming is you really can't see what is happening. Too many buttons, too many moves that can be done by players and there aren't any real breaks. Also the only game with a big enough playerbase to matter is WoW and well, who cares about WoW anymore~. Even when I did spend a lot of time following the PvP scene I didn't watch streams of it because they just aren't very interesting and they aren't even that useful as a learning tool.
MMORPG combat just doesn't lend itself to streaming very well, whether it be PvP or PvE to be honest.
That is a stretch. Observation is not a measure of popularity? How about play football? How many watch it? Football is not popular in the US, by your logic?
The first I heard about PvP as a term was in MMOs. I had been playing competitive videogames before, but they were never referred to as PvP games. So for me... PvP is in MMOs and other games are different.
Fast forward to now there's ...arena PvP... open world PvP and others. Both of those are very different and serve a completely different purpose. They also attract completely different players.
Arena PvP is centered around fair and paced matchups highly based on active skill as character preparation is usually done for you.
Open world PvP is about immersion and freedom... fair isn't guaranteed, the pace is not guaranteed, active skills may be present, but how you prepare you character in a passive (gear/abilities) sense is also present.
I can tell you now... Arena PvP players who love eSports do not like Open world PvP games and vice versa. That's if you label everything as "PvP". Now they might find each fun, but for different reasons. Like me. I'm okay with Arena PvP (Nosgoth), but Open world PvP is what I love and what I actually seek. Nosgoth is just a quick game with interesting gameplay. It isn't really an experience like open world pvp.
I think you're leaving out a few factors that help to explain viewership.
MOBAs often link directly to and showcase their PVP streamers. For example, on both the SMITE page and in the game client there are direct links to streamers.
MOBA streamers often have commentating or explanation of what's going on. MMO PVP streamers seem to just blast the most obnoxious thrash metal they can find.
MOBA UIs and ingame feedback (a/v responses to actions and results) are designed to tell the player more about what's going on in the arena/area/match whereas MMOs rarely expand out like that in their PVP and battlegrounds, relegating the feedback to the player to primarily what the player is doing. In short, cryptic and boring for viewers.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I'm a hardcore pvp gamer who spends 90% of his gaming time in pvp. I've played over 20 mmo's and I've never played nor will I play a moba. I will always play open world pvp as it the most realistic form of pvp any game has come up with.
21 year MMO veteran
PvP Raid Leader
Lover of The Witcher & CD Projekt Red
Like I said, MOBAs, not for me. But, some of my long time MMO RL friends can't seem to stop playing Dota2. Never say never.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
It's not a stretch. It's logic.
By my logic, I would measure the popularity of playing football by measuring the number of people playing football.
By your logic, you would measure the number of murderers by the number of people watching media's coverage of murders. Which would result in accurate statements like "87% of Americans are murderers."
Observation is certainly a type of popularity, but what I'm interested in most as a gamer is the popularity of playing a given game. As a gamer, I spend way more time playing games than watching them. As a game developer, observability is certainly more interesting to know about, but I'm pretty well-versed in what makes for good watchability.
Except survival games. Those stump me. Games where over 90% of the game is spent without gameplay (endlessly running through rooms searching for garbage.) Who wants to play that, let alone watch it? H1Z1 and DayZ seem devoid of interesting gameplay, yet their developers seem to be laughing all the way to the bank (because developing that kind of content is cheap!) A handful of them legitimately do have enough gameplay or variety (like construction) to be fun (Don't Starve, Dying Light, and maybe Rust. Big maybe on that last one though.) But the most popular ones are inexplicably the least fun looking.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Um killing w/o being killed is the entire point. You do what you can do to minimize risk of being killed. As a pvpr I fully expect the next guy to do the same to me.
This is something you anti-pvp type will never understand. It's nothing personal, I don't even know you. It's combat.
Well maybe you don't like LoL or Dota, but you'd rather play Star Conflict, World of Tanks, World of Warplanes or War Thunder? Or some FPSes and RTS games? Competitive PVP is not restricted to MOBAs, but any PvPer will choose any MOBA over most PvP in MMORPGs.
You're not challenging yourself if all you do is hunt players who are not expecting a fight or don't want to fight, kill characters lower level than you, or smaller groups than yours. And if one side isn't completely brain dead, the side which has more people on it nearly always wins. The impact of player skill is diminished.
"We got some great kills tonight?" Yeah, well, you jumped on someone who wasn't opted for PvP (they had PvE builds) with superior numbers. Where is the challenge? What is the point? There isn't even much of a risk involved if you care about that stuff. Would you call yourself a PvPer over this?
Nah, if you like this and competitive PvP turns you off, you're a PKer not a PvPer.
Also, the way your friends describe LoL as "god awful" and jump into Dota... I think they might be fanboys. Sorry. Preference aside, those two games are very similar. If you don't like the one, there's a good chance you won't like the other either.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
in my conception just because not fair fight its not pvp? wrong right?
MOBA its about fair fight without grind,balance , others things
but STOP moba have heroes and heroes not balanced
feeling free to say many time you wish
but at last HO NO GRIND! i can play 30min per day and have fun
This type game not to me
I want persitent cosequence
Like fight to conquest something i have proud
Not just generic pew pew pew ( better i play fps if i want this)
Having played soccer for many years, I still can't watch it from TV. It is definitely one of those games you want to play, but don't want to watch. I'd much rather watch ice hockey instead, and I haven't played much hockey.
I agree on your point about survival games too.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
You are killing for the sake of killing or loot. Not for the sake of contest or to test your abilities. It is more like kicking a downed old man beside the road with your friends for his wallet than combat.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky