Originally posted by cribett PVP'er here can't stand Mobas
Are you sure you're a PvPer? Maybe you're a PKer?
I'm confused..
What's the difference? I thought PK'er meant Player Killer, which essentially is the same thing as a PvP'er...
Yes, technically a PKer is a PvPer too, but is ganking lowbies with a max level character the same as getting an even fight with equally powerful opponents?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Originally posted by filmoret PVP'er is someone who actually wants to fight against another player. PKiller is someone who just wants to kill someone without getting any fight out of them.
Um killing w/o being killed is the entire point. You do what you can do to minimize risk of being killed. As a pvpr I fully expect the next guy to do the same to me.
This is something you anti-pvp type will never understand. It's nothing personal, I don't even know you. It's combat.
You are killing for the sake of killing or loot. Not for the sake of contest or to test your abilities. It is more like kicking a downed old man beside the road with your friends for his wallet than combat.
Actually PvP is Sport and PKing is Combat. You dont want a fair fight in combat, you do in sports.
Originally posted by cribett PVP'er here can't stand Mobas
Are you sure you're a PvPer? Maybe you're a PKer?
I'm confused..
What's the difference? I thought PK'er meant Player Killer, which essentially is the same thing as a PvP'er...
Yes, technically a PKer is a PvPer too, but is ganking lowbies with a max level character the same as getting an even fight with equally powerful opponents?
you seem to be stuck on thinking that pvp in mmos is only 1vs1 ganking, when actually many of us like the larger type of pvp that mmos can provide. so you are ignoring the more RvR types of games.
A lot of people want to trivialize open world PVP as "ganking lowbies" or steamrolling people less equipped than you are. They're missing a lot of critical elements to what makes it fun to play.
Sure it's cool to have prearranged fights like arenas or duels, but in MMO's those rarely come down to skill either. In the vast majority of cases it's a gear check. Or it comes down to who has the most viable PVP template at that particular time. The devs nerf a few things here or there, one player gets a better item, it changes the dynamic of the fight a lot more than hitting buttons in a particular order does.
Those fights just lack too many factors and do minimize the need for very desirable skills in a PVP setting. Some guys can win 1vs1's all day, because they've got their template and their rotation down to a science due to repetition and constant spars with their guildies. Some would argue that is skill, I call it being a jobber. It is in fact like a factory job because you've learned how to do it and do it fast. Put them in a real combat scenario where they're facing 3 v 1 and you're likely going to get a completely different outcome, cause they don't have any experience doing it. Some guys could win with those odds, some guys could at least put up a good fight. Situational awareness, the ability to react to a near infinite amount of variables (the unknown unknown) and make the right decision, all those come into play in open world PVP and they simply do not exist in arena style fighting.
To make a real life comparison duels arenas are just training seminars for soldiers. You know exactly what to expect going into it, it's all highly orchestrated and contrived. Completely different than being in a real battle and proving yourself capable of doing it. Which normally comes down to making the right decisions, on the fly with very little time to consider it.
Never been a fan of WoW stype PvP even though I did it for years. Just because gear matters a lot in PvP balance. I much rather PvP in DAoC, GW2 where gear matters little and skill rains on high. Not all RPGs are about gear progression. Thats why games like that had a huge PvP following.
Gear mattered a lot in DaoC, but it was rather easy to obtain since you could get pretty much BIS-gear from crafters and a few drops. I quit just before the housing patch, so it might have changed later, but with all the crap ToA added it should have gotten worse, rather.
If I had $1 for every person who argued absolutes on the interwebz...
Seriously OP, a "PVPer" means what exactly? Someone who likes and/or engages in PVP? Well, what kind of PVP and why?
This is the point. A lane-pusher (I hate the term MOBA) caters to a certain playstyle and preference. I like them (Smite in particular) for some quick, balanced, skill-based, tactical action. Do I prefer this to PVP in an MMO? No, it's just a different kind of PVP and depends on what I feel like doing at any given time.
A massive battle over system sovereignty in EVE tops 20 mins of lane-pushing in Smite for overall fun. But spending hours jumping through systems for a few meaningless scraps does not top the instant action guaranteed by logging in to Smite. Horses for courses, as they say.
Originally posted by filmoret PVP'er is someone who actually wants to fight against another player. PKiller is someone who just wants to kill someone without getting any fight out of them.
Um killing w/o being killed is the entire point. You do what you can do to minimize risk of being killed. As a pvpr I fully expect the next guy to do the same to me.
This is something you anti-pvp type will never understand. It's nothing personal, I don't even know you. It's combat.
You are killing for the sake of killing or loot. Not for the sake of contest or to test your abilities. It is more like kicking a downed old man beside the road with your friends for his wallet than combat.
A squadron of soldiers move across enemy lines, no other soldiers are there to meet them. They spot an old man tending his fields, they're hungry and bored. They start to harass him and then kill him and take his stuff.
That's a terribly sad story, but in an MMO that old man gets to respawn and fight another day. I've seen players in games that get humiliated by another player and it drives them to becomes this god like figure who tears through anyone in their path just thinking of that one guy, that one moment in their gaming life. It's up to the old man how he wants to deal with that.
These kinds of stories are what drives MMO's, or at least it used to be. We were all noobs once. Something drove us to become more than that, in some cases something drives us to be a PVP monster. We all had to start somewhere. How is any of this a bad thing? These games are about personal interaction and character growth, and it's not all going to be good, not all the time. People expect to log into these games and just succeed and have no barriers. The best barrier to put in front of someone is another player, because it becomes more real. No story a developer can tell or game mechanic that they can include in their games can replace that interaction. We've lost sight of that, and it's sad.
And for the record, I've been on both sides of that sort of tale. I beat the crap out of this poor guy on SWG, and he kept coming back at me, for months this went on and I just schooled him every time. One night I'm in this city cantina, and he walks in with a friend, and challenges me, I hadn't seen him for a while. I knew the second I saw the friend what was up, he was known to have this near server best rifle and he had obviously lent it. I gave him his revenge, and that was that. Next time I saw him we chatted and did some hunting together, never saw the guy again. You don't replace those kinds of stories in your head with that one time you beat this super hard mob or you finished some predetermined quest. It's always going to go back to other players for those memories.
I prefer any game where the noob can something to loose after I've killed him So top on my list is EvE Online (god damn i got erection every time i shoot his ship and then even his capsule; just the sad fact that EvE is getting more noob friendly ), second would be Ultima Online, Darkfall. Next could be Dota2,H1Z1, Arma2 dayz/standalone.
CS, WOW are sometimes fun, but not for a long term time. Getting bored after few days
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.? -Albert Einstein
"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write. So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.
If I had $1 for every person who argued absolutes on the interwebz...
Seriously OP, a "PVPer" means what exactly? Someone who likes and/or engages in PVP? Well, what kind of PVP and why?
This is the point. A lane-pusher (I hate the term MOBA) caters to a certain playstyle and preference. I like them (Smite in particular) for some quick, balanced, skill-based, tactical action. Do I prefer this to PVP in an MMO? No, it's just a different kind of PVP and depends on what I feel like doing at any given time.
A massive battle over system sovereignty in EVE tops 20 mins of lane-pushing in Smite for overall fun. But spending hours jumping through systems for a few meaningless scraps does not top the instant action guaranteed by logging in to Smite. Horses for courses, as they say.
A lot of people want to trivialize open world PVP as "ganking lowbies" or steamrolling people less equipped than you are. They're missing a lot of critical elements to what makes it fun to play.
No one is trivializing it or missing anything about open world PVP. Do people like to watch it? Not really. Does it make for a popular stream? Not really. There are plenty of reasons for it, some of which you have already mentioned.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by cribett PVP'er here can't stand Mobas
Are you sure you're a PvPer? Maybe you're a PKer?
I'm a big time PVP'er and I find myself in the same boat.
Started out with LoL, and ultimately it bored me to the point of yawn attacks followed by inevitable tears. However, I gave the MOBA scene another go with some like minded friends who explained LoL is "god awful", come on over with your laptop for some Dota2. While definitely the better game, it didn't take long for me to experience the same symptoms. All I kept saying was "when is this going to end? How much longer? Do you guys really like this, or are you all just punking me?".
On paper MOBAs should be right up my alley, but things just did not pan out that way.
Great game Dota2, I want to love it, but it simply puts me to sleep.
Well maybe you don't like LoL or Dota, but you'd rather play Star Conflict, World of Tanks, World of Warplanes or War Thunder? Or some FPSes and RTS games? Competitive PVP is not restricted to MOBAs, but any PvPer will choose any MOBA over most PvP in MMORPGs. LOL, Yes I am aware that PVP is not restricted to MOBAs. I was playing Street Fighter in '87 and Street Fighter II in '91 (best gaming memories of all time), both in the Arcades, both competitively. I've played a tonne of WoT and War Thunder. Awesome games. I have also played countless hours of Call of Duty and I've been playing Combat Arms since way back in beta. I'm not even going to get into my long history with RTS games that started with the first Warcraft title. So, needless to say I've been around the block when it comes to PVP games. Thanks for the heads up though. And yeah, aside from my experience in EVE and the original Darkfall, MMOs for the most part have shown that they can produce crap PVP on a good day.
You're not challenging yourself if all you do is hunt players who are not expecting a fight or don't want to fight, kill characters lower level than you, or smaller groups than yours. And if one side isn't completely brain dead, the side which has more people on it nearly always wins. The impact of player skill is diminished. Agreed.
"We got some great kills tonight?" Yeah, well, you jumped on someone who wasn't opted for PvP (they had PvE builds) with superior numbers. Where is the challenge? There is no challenge in this scenario. What is the point? None, unless you're a prick with no honour or warrior spirit not looking for a good fun fight. There isn't even much of a risk involved if you care about that stuff. Would you call yourself a PvPer over this? I personally would not.
Nah, if you like this and competitive PvP turns you off, you're a PKer not a PvPer.
Also, the way your friends describe LoL as "god awful" and jump into Dota... I think they might be fanboys. Sorry. Preference aside, those two games are very similar. If you don't like the one, there's a good chance you won't like the other either. You'd have to take that up with them, honestly. I found both boring ass hell, but I will say that Dota2 was a much better looking game and it also allowed me choose from many more characters without having to consult my wallet. I don't mind actually paying for a game or paying a flat monthly fee etc., but neither me nor my gaming buddies will ever play a game that has you even considering pulling out a credit card every time you play. That's reckless and stupid. We've been gaming for long enough to know better.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Originally posted by cribett PVP'er here can't stand Mobas
Are you sure you're a PvPer? Maybe you're a PKer?
I'm confused..
What's the difference? I thought PK'er meant Player Killer, which essentially is the same thing as a PvP'er...
Yes, technically a PKer is a PvPer too, but is ganking lowbies with a max level character the same as getting an even fight with equally powerful opponents?
you seem to be stuck on thinking that pvp in mmos is only 1vs1 ganking, when actually many of us like the larger type of pvp that mmos can provide. so you are ignoring the more RvR types of games.
I'm not stuck on anything. Killing lowbies with a high level character or ganging up on smaller parties with a larger one are essentially same scenario.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
A lot of people want to trivialize open world PVP as "ganking lowbies" or steamrolling people less equipped than you are. They're missing a lot of critical elements to what makes it fun to play.
No one is trivializing it or missing anything about open world PVP. Do people like to watch it? Not really. Does it make for a popular stream? Not really. There are plenty of reasons for it, some of which you have already mentioned.
Are you telling me when you sit down and play a game that one of the first things you consider is "would someone else be excited watching me play this?"
If not, I don't see how it matters. Is everyone in the world trying to be pewdie pie or something? I guess so. Personally I don't let other people involved in my game selection.
Originally posted by filmoret PVP'er is someone who actually wants to fight against another player. PKiller is someone who just wants to kill someone without getting any fight out of them.
Um killing w/o being killed is the entire point. You do what you can do to minimize risk of being killed. As a pvpr I fully expect the next guy to do the same to me.
This is something you anti-pvp type will never understand. It's nothing personal, I don't even know you. It's combat.
You are killing for the sake of killing or loot. Not for the sake of contest or to test your abilities. It is more like kicking a downed old man beside the road with your friends for his wallet than combat.
A squadron of soldiers move across enemy lines, no other soldiers are there to meet them. They spot an old man tending his fields, they're hungry and bored. They start to harass him and then kill him and take his stuff.
That's a terribly sad story, but in an MMO that old man gets to respawn and fight another day. I've seen players in games that get humiliated by another player and it drives them to becomes this god like figure who tears through anyone in their path just thinking of that one guy, that one moment in their gaming life. It's up to the old man how he wants to deal with that.
These kinds of stories are what drives MMO's, or at least it used to be. We were all noobs once. Something drove us to become more than that, in some cases something drives us to be a PVP monster. We all had to start somewhere. How is any of this a bad thing? These games are about personal interaction and character growth, and it's not all going to be good, not all the time. People expect to log into these games and just succeed and have no barriers. The best barrier to put in front of someone is another player, because it becomes more real. No story a developer can tell or game mechanic that they can include in their games can replace that interaction. We've lost sight of that, and it's sad.
And for the record, I've been on both sides of that sort of tale. I beat the crap out of this poor guy on SWG, and he kept coming back at me, for months this went on and I just schooled him every time. One night I'm in this city cantina, and he walks in with a friend, and challenges me, I hadn't seen him for a while. I knew the second I saw the friend what was up, he was known to have this near server best rifle and he had obviously lent it. I gave him his revenge, and that was that. Next time I saw him we chatted and did some hunting together, never saw the guy again. You don't replace those kinds of stories in your head with that one time you beat this super hard mob or you finished some predetermined quest. It's always going to go back to other players for those memories.
And I can recount dozens and dozens of epic battles from the Clan Wars in World of Tanks or GvG matches/tournaments in Guild Wars 1.
What is your point exactly? You think stories can only come from MMOs? Famous personalities and clans can be found in virtually any multiplayer game if you would only engage with the community. MMOs are nothing special in this. Open world PvP or no.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Originally posted by filmoret PVP'er is someone who actually wants to fight against another player. PKiller is someone who just wants to kill someone without getting any fight out of them.
Um killing w/o being killed is the entire point. You do what you can do to minimize risk of being killed. As a pvpr I fully expect the next guy to do the same to me.
This is something you anti-pvp type will never understand. It's nothing personal, I don't even know you. It's combat.
You are killing for the sake of killing or loot. Not for the sake of contest or to test your abilities. It is more like kicking a downed old man beside the road with your friends for his wallet than combat.
A squadron of soldiers move across enemy lines, no other soldiers are there to meet them. They spot an old man tending his fields, they're hungry and bored. They start to harass him and then kill him and take his stuff.
That's a terribly sad story, but in an MMO that old man gets to respawn and fight another day. I've seen players in games that get humiliated by another player and it drives them to becomes this god like figure who tears through anyone in their path just thinking of that one guy, that one moment in their gaming life. It's up to the old man how he wants to deal with that.
These kinds of stories are what drives MMO's, or at least it used to be. We were all noobs once. Something drove us to become more than that, in some cases something drives us to be a PVP monster. We all had to start somewhere. How is any of this a bad thing? These games are about personal interaction and character growth, and it's not all going to be good, not all the time. People expect to log into these games and just succeed and have no barriers. The best barrier to put in front of someone is another player, because it becomes more real. No story a developer can tell or game mechanic that they can include in their games can replace that interaction. We've lost sight of that, and it's sad.
And for the record, I've been on both sides of that sort of tale. I beat the crap out of this poor guy on SWG, and he kept coming back at me, for months this went on and I just schooled him every time. One night I'm in this city cantina, and he walks in with a friend, and challenges me, I hadn't seen him for a while. I knew the second I saw the friend what was up, he was known to have this near server best rifle and he had obviously lent it. I gave him his revenge, and that was that. Next time I saw him we chatted and did some hunting together, never saw the guy again. You don't replace those kinds of stories in your head with that one time you beat this super hard mob or you finished some predetermined quest. It's always going to go back to other players for those memories.
And I can recount dozens and dozens of epic battles from the Clan Wars in World of Tanks or GvG matches/tournaments in Guild Wars 1.
What is your point exactly? You think stories can only come from MMOs? Famous personalities and clans can be found in virtually any multiplayer game if you would only engage with the community. MMOs are nothing special in this. Open world PvP or no.
You've spent the better part of this thread making it seem like open world PVP games are just for people who want to gank and destroy the weak. When in fact they're most conducive to developing the community feel and interaction that is lacking from near every theme park on the market.
I couldn't give two pisses in a bottle about MOBA's, seems a lot of PVPers agree on that.
You're probably not getting the point because you're pulling the bait and switch. Now you wanna talk about something else entirely. Well no, you've been very off point on everything you've had to say about open world PVP thus far.
A squadron of soldiers move across enemy lines, no other soldiers are there to meet them. They spot an old man tending his fields, they're hungry and bored. They start to harass him and then kill him and take his stuff.
That's a terribly sad story, but in an MMO that old man gets to respawn and fight another day. I've seen players in games that get humiliated by another player and it drives them to becomes this god like figure who tears through anyone in their path just thinking of that one guy, that one moment in their gaming life. It's up to the old man how he wants to deal with that.
These kinds of stories are what drives MMO's, or at least it used to be. We were all noobs once. Something drove us to become more than that, in some cases something drives us to be a PVP monster. We all had to start somewhere. How is any of this a bad thing? These games are about personal interaction and character growth, and it's not all going to be good, not all the time. People expect to log into these games and just succeed and have no barriers. The best barrier to put in front of someone is another player, because it becomes more real. No story a developer can tell or game mechanic that they can include in their games can replace that interaction. We've lost sight of that, and it's sad.
And for the record, I've been on both sides of that sort of tale. I beat the crap out of this poor guy on SWG, and he kept coming back at me, for months this went on and I just schooled him every time. One night I'm in this city cantina, and he walks in with a friend, and challenges me, I hadn't seen him for a while. I knew the second I saw the friend what was up, he was known to have this near server best rifle and he had obviously lent it. I gave him his revenge, and that was that. Next time I saw him we chatted and did some hunting together, never saw the guy again. You don't replace those kinds of stories in your head with that one time you beat this super hard mob or you finished some predetermined quest. It's always going to go back to other players for those memories.
And I can recount dozens and dozens of epic battles from the Clan Wars in World of Tanks or GvG matches/tournaments in Guild Wars 1.
What is your point exactly? You think stories can only come from MMOs? Famous personalities and clans can be found in virtually any multiplayer game if you would only engage with the community. MMOs are nothing special in this. Open world PvP or no.
Sure, you can get some great stories and memories in games like WoT; insane comebacks that seemed almost impossible, a match where you basically single-handedly carried your team to victory, or an evenly matched game that went back and forth right to the very end.
However, I can genuinely tell you that those types of tales pale in comparison to what you'll find in some of the better Open world PVP MMOs. There's simply not enough "meat" in those types of games to put together the kind of sandwich you've likely never had the pleasure of taking a bite of. Perhaps you've skimmed the surface of some of the titles in question and never progressed far enough to know what everyone is talking about, but clearly you have missed out entirely.
As I said though, those other types of games can be quite memorable, but they're just not in the same ballpark when it comes what you can experience in an open world PVP game.
P.S. this is also why it's so sad that most MMO PVP is completely terrible. The huge potential is right there...
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I don't think for him thought that it's as much about the community as it is "I want to be the best and compete against the best, and it should always be fair" or something like that.
I don't buy it. If you're taking the time to compete, you want to win, otherwise, why do it? I'm not saying transcend the game rules to get an unfair advantage, but outside that I'm sure most anyone would do everything in their power to win. This isn't any different in an open world PVP game. If you're red you're dead, etc.
The problem that people have with open world PVP has nothing to do with beating on noobs or however they want to package the argument as. They don't want to put themselves out there, be vulnerable, and have the potential to face uneven odds at any given moment. Some people just can't handle that.
And that's fine. But please, enough about the poor little newbies and them getting ganked. Nobody really cares about that. Noobs get beat up in every type of online game, that's how this works. You have to approach games like that with the understanding that you will die, noobie or not, and that there will be jerks. It's perfectly fine if you don't want to play those games, but why the big charade as for the reason.
A lot of people want to trivialize open world PVP as "ganking lowbies" or steamrolling people less equipped than you are. They're missing a lot of critical elements to what makes it fun to play.
No one is trivializing it or missing anything about open world PVP. Do people like to watch it? Not really. Does it make for a popular stream? Not really. There are plenty of reasons for it, some of which you have already mentioned.
Are you telling me when you sit down and play a game that one of the first things you consider is "would someone else be excited watching me play this?"
If not, I don't see how it matters. Is everyone in the world trying to be pewdie pie or something? I guess so. Personally I don't let other people involved in my game selection.
This is the problem with using Twitch as the basis for this discussion (which the OP did). It doesn't correlate.
As for the other aspects of open-world PvP vs. non-OW pvp games, that's an entirely separate discussion. One that's been pounded into the ground by countless other threads.
While people who enjoy those games may feel like they are beneficial, that they strengthen community, the realty paints a very different sort of picture. Far more people get turned away from these types of games because of experiences where newer players are trying to do their own thing / still learning the game, only to be completely annihilated by max lvl players. Or worse, games where you have bands of these players that actively go looking for easy kills. It happens much more often then it should.
And to the 50-100 honorable pvpers in these games that really are invested in the pvp experience, it might feel like to them that they have a really strong community. But when you try to equate that to the game as a whole, it becomes a bit like pointing to 5 homeless men around a trash fire and calling them an important 'tight knight' community in relation to a city.
I play MOBAs for my PvP fix. Straight to the point, direct to the fun. No need for 6 months commitment gearing up, runing, enchanting, etc. MOBas have fair and stable ladder systems, and everyone has the same opportunities to win, only based on skill, without gear gaps. And you're not stuck with the class that you levelled and geared up till the end of time after they nerfed it and made it unviable. Because if they nerf a champion in a MOBA, I just have to pick another next game, not spend 1-2 months of hard commitment to level another class and gear it up.
I always feel that PvP'ing in a MMO is getting on a slow, long term race to get better gear than your peers and have an edge over them, or flex it while pretending to be afk in town. In a MOBA every battle resets your gear, and only your skill counts. I'm aware this is frightening to some people, but to me that's where the beauty of it lies.
My opinion is my own. I respect all other opinions and views equally, but keep in mind that my opinion will always be the best for me. That's why it's my opinion.
A lot of people want to trivialize open world PVP as "ganking lowbies" or steamrolling people less equipped than you are. They're missing a lot of critical elements to what makes it fun to play.
No one is trivializing it or missing anything about open world PVP. Do people like to watch it? Not really. Does it make for a popular stream? Not really. There are plenty of reasons for it, some of which you have already mentioned.
Are you telling me when you sit down and play a game that one of the first things you consider is "would someone else be excited watching me play this?"
If not, I don't see how it matters. Is everyone in the world trying to be pewdie pie or something? I guess so. Personally I don't let other people involved in my game selection.
This is the problem with using Twitch as the basis for this discussion (which the OP did). It doesn't correlate.
As for the other aspects of open-world PvP vs. non-OW pvp games, that's an entirely separate discussion. One that's been pounded into the ground by countless other threads.
While people who enjoy those games may feel like they are beneficial, that they strengthen community, the realty paints a very different sort of picture. Far more people get turned away from these types of games because of experiences where newer players are trying to do their own thing / still learning the game, only to be completely annihilated by max lvl players. Or worse, games where you have bands of these players that actively go looking for easy kills. It happens much more often then it should.
And to the 50-100 honorable pvpers in these games that really are invested in the pvp experience, it might feel like to them that they have a really strong community. But when you try to equate that to the game as a whole, it becomes a bit like pointing to 5 homeless men around a trash fire and calling them an important 'tight knight' community in relation to a city.
Well that's the topic I like. I like open world PVP. I didn't bring it up, I just joined in.
The open world PVP games on the market right now maybe aren't doing so good. Because you're right, a lot of the traditional MMO crowd abhor them. But once MMO's become more available on consoles, the console market will create a demand for stronger PVP focus. And I fully expect that they'll want open world PVP games. Completely different market of players.
And outside a handful of MMO's, basically all of their communities can be viewed like how you're talking about, open world PVP or not.
Originally posted by filmoret PVP'er is someone who actually wants to fight against another player. PKiller is someone who just wants to kill someone without getting any fight out of them.
Um killing w/o being killed is the entire point. You do what you can do to minimize risk of being killed. As a pvpr I fully expect the next guy to do the same to me.
This is something you anti-pvp type will never understand. It's nothing personal, I don't even know you. It's combat.
You are killing for the sake of killing or loot. Not for the sake of contest or to test your abilities. It is more like kicking a downed old man beside the road with your friends for his wallet than combat.
A squadron of soldiers move across enemy lines, no other soldiers are there to meet them. They spot an old man tending his fields, they're hungry and bored. They start to harass him and then kill him and take his stuff.
That's a terribly sad story, but in an MMO that old man gets to respawn and fight another day. I've seen players in games that get humiliated by another player and it drives them to becomes this god like figure who tears through anyone in their path just thinking of that one guy, that one moment in their gaming life. It's up to the old man how he wants to deal with that.
These kinds of stories are what drives MMO's, or at least it used to be. We were all noobs once. Something drove us to become more than that, in some cases something drives us to be a PVP monster. We all had to start somewhere. How is any of this a bad thing? These games are about personal interaction and character growth, and it's not all going to be good, not all the time. People expect to log into these games and just succeed and have no barriers. The best barrier to put in front of someone is another player, because it becomes more real. No story a developer can tell or game mechanic that they can include in their games can replace that interaction. We've lost sight of that, and it's sad.
And for the record, I've been on both sides of that sort of tale. I beat the crap out of this poor guy on SWG, and he kept coming back at me, for months this went on and I just schooled him every time. One night I'm in this city cantina, and he walks in with a friend, and challenges me, I hadn't seen him for a while. I knew the second I saw the friend what was up, he was known to have this near server best rifle and he had obviously lent it. I gave him his revenge, and that was that. Next time I saw him we chatted and did some hunting together, never saw the guy again. You don't replace those kinds of stories in your head with that one time you beat this super hard mob or you finished some predetermined quest. It's always going to go back to other players for those memories.
I just fell in love with the way you write stuff, I'v been that old man!
As a pvp'r, I have always disliked battlegrounds or any form of group dueling. I have a hard time seeing moba's and battlegrounds as a pvp setting. They are more akin to group dueling. I prefer an open world where pvp is something meaningful. I miss the days of raiding rebel bases in swg, defending my guilds keep in aoc. I don't miss seeing my corps wormhole stuff getting blown to bits, but pvp meant something, it was rewarding. Each event was a story we would retell when we would go out for beers, I never once had a convo about my battleground game.
Roses are red Violets are blue The reviewer has a mishapen head Which means his opinion is skewed ...Aldous.MF'n.Huxley
Sure, you can get some great stories and memories in games like WoT; insane comebacks that seemed almost impossible, a match where you basically single-handedly carried your team to victory, or an evenly matched game that went back and forth right to the very end.
However, I can genuinely tell you that those types of tales pale in comparison to what you'll find in some of the better Open world PVP MMOs. There's simply not enough "meat" in those types of games to put together the kind of sandwich you've likely never had the pleasure of taking a bite of. Perhaps you've skimmed the surface of some of the titles in question and never progressed far enough to know what everyone is talking about, but clearly you have missed out entirely.
As I said though, those other types of games can be quite memorable, but they're just not in the same ballpark when it comes what you can experience in an open world PVP game.
P.S. this is also why it's so sad that most MMO PVP is completely terrible. The huge potential is right there...
I've played Eve Online for nearly 3 years. Atlas, Black Legion, Nulli Secunda, NC... I was an FC and a co-CEO... PvP was the main thing I did in that game. Tell me, how have I missed out?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Sure, you can get some great stories and memories in games like WoT; insane comebacks that seemed almost impossible, a match where you basically single-handedly carried your team to victory, or an evenly matched game that went back and forth right to the very end.
However, I can genuinely tell you that those types of tales pale in comparison to what you'll find in some of the better Open world PVP MMOs. There's simply not enough "meat" in those types of games to put together the kind of sandwich you've likely never had the pleasure of taking a bite of. Perhaps you've skimmed the surface of some of the titles in question and never progressed far enough to know what everyone is talking about, but clearly you have missed out entirely.
As I said though, those other types of games can be quite memorable, but they're just not in the same ballpark when it comes what you can experience in an open world PVP game.
P.S. this is also why it's so sad that most MMO PVP is completely terrible. The huge potential is right there...
I've played Eve Online for nearly 3 years. Atlas, Black Legion, Nulli Secunda, NC... I was an FC and a co-CEO... PvP was the main thing I did in that game. Tell me, how have I missed out?
They seem to be different types of experiences to me. One is more like playing a sport. The other is more like being involved in a story.
That is a stretch. Observation is not a measure of popularity? How about play football? How many watch it? Football is not popular in the US, by your logic?
It's not a stretch. It's logic.
By my logic, I would measure the popularity of playing football by measuring the number of people playing football.
But we are not talking about the popularity of PLAYING MOBA .. we are talking about the popularity of MOBA, watching and playing .. as entertainment.
And the murder example is totally off-base. And yes, if you count watching fictitious murders .. it is a popular pass-time since many watch detective shows.
Comments
Yes, technically a PKer is a PvPer too, but is ganking lowbies with a max level character the same as getting an even fight with equally powerful opponents?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Actually PvP is Sport and PKing is Combat. You dont want a fair fight in combat, you do in sports.
you seem to be stuck on thinking that pvp in mmos is only 1vs1 ganking, when actually many of us like the larger type of pvp that mmos can provide. so you are ignoring the more RvR types of games.
A lot of people want to trivialize open world PVP as "ganking lowbies" or steamrolling people less equipped than you are. They're missing a lot of critical elements to what makes it fun to play.
Sure it's cool to have prearranged fights like arenas or duels, but in MMO's those rarely come down to skill either. In the vast majority of cases it's a gear check. Or it comes down to who has the most viable PVP template at that particular time. The devs nerf a few things here or there, one player gets a better item, it changes the dynamic of the fight a lot more than hitting buttons in a particular order does.
Those fights just lack too many factors and do minimize the need for very desirable skills in a PVP setting. Some guys can win 1vs1's all day, because they've got their template and their rotation down to a science due to repetition and constant spars with their guildies. Some would argue that is skill, I call it being a jobber. It is in fact like a factory job because you've learned how to do it and do it fast. Put them in a real combat scenario where they're facing 3 v 1 and you're likely going to get a completely different outcome, cause they don't have any experience doing it. Some guys could win with those odds, some guys could at least put up a good fight. Situational awareness, the ability to react to a near infinite amount of variables (the unknown unknown) and make the right decision, all those come into play in open world PVP and they simply do not exist in arena style fighting.
To make a real life comparison duels arenas are just training seminars for soldiers. You know exactly what to expect going into it, it's all highly orchestrated and contrived. Completely different than being in a real battle and proving yourself capable of doing it. Which normally comes down to making the right decisions, on the fly with very little time to consider it.
Gear mattered a lot in DaoC, but it was rather easy to obtain since you could get pretty much BIS-gear from crafters and a few drops. I quit just before the housing patch, so it might have changed later, but with all the crap ToA added it should have gotten worse, rather.
If I had $1 for every person who argued absolutes on the interwebz...
Seriously OP, a "PVPer" means what exactly? Someone who likes and/or engages in PVP? Well, what kind of PVP and why?
This is the point. A lane-pusher (I hate the term MOBA) caters to a certain playstyle and preference. I like them (Smite in particular) for some quick, balanced, skill-based, tactical action. Do I prefer this to PVP in an MMO? No, it's just a different kind of PVP and depends on what I feel like doing at any given time.
A massive battle over system sovereignty in EVE tops 20 mins of lane-pushing in Smite for overall fun. But spending hours jumping through systems for a few meaningless scraps does not top the instant action guaranteed by logging in to Smite. Horses for courses, as they say.
A squadron of soldiers move across enemy lines, no other soldiers are there to meet them. They spot an old man tending his fields, they're hungry and bored. They start to harass him and then kill him and take his stuff.
That's a terribly sad story, but in an MMO that old man gets to respawn and fight another day. I've seen players in games that get humiliated by another player and it drives them to becomes this god like figure who tears through anyone in their path just thinking of that one guy, that one moment in their gaming life. It's up to the old man how he wants to deal with that.
These kinds of stories are what drives MMO's, or at least it used to be. We were all noobs once. Something drove us to become more than that, in some cases something drives us to be a PVP monster. We all had to start somewhere. How is any of this a bad thing? These games are about personal interaction and character growth, and it's not all going to be good, not all the time. People expect to log into these games and just succeed and have no barriers. The best barrier to put in front of someone is another player, because it becomes more real. No story a developer can tell or game mechanic that they can include in their games can replace that interaction. We've lost sight of that, and it's sad.
And for the record, I've been on both sides of that sort of tale. I beat the crap out of this poor guy on SWG, and he kept coming back at me, for months this went on and I just schooled him every time. One night I'm in this city cantina, and he walks in with a friend, and challenges me, I hadn't seen him for a while. I knew the second I saw the friend what was up, he was known to have this near server best rifle and he had obviously lent it. I gave him his revenge, and that was that. Next time I saw him we chatted and did some hunting together, never saw the guy again. You don't replace those kinds of stories in your head with that one time you beat this super hard mob or you finished some predetermined quest. It's always going to go back to other players for those memories.
I prefer any game where the noob can something to loose after I've killed him
), second would be Ultima Online, Darkfall.
So top on my list is EvE Online (god damn i got erection every time i shoot his ship and then even his capsule; just the sad fact that EvE is getting more noob friendly
Next could be Dota2,H1Z1, Arma2 dayz/standalone.
CS, WOW are sometimes fun, but not for a long term time. Getting bored after few days
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.? -Albert Einstein
"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.
This ^
Well said.
No one is trivializing it or missing anything about open world PVP. Do people like to watch it? Not really. Does it make for a popular stream? Not really. There are plenty of reasons for it, some of which you have already mentioned.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I'm not stuck on anything. Killing lowbies with a high level character or ganging up on smaller parties with a larger one are essentially same scenario.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Are you telling me when you sit down and play a game that one of the first things you consider is "would someone else be excited watching me play this?"
If not, I don't see how it matters. Is everyone in the world trying to be pewdie pie or something? I guess so. Personally I don't let other people involved in my game selection.
And I can recount dozens and dozens of epic battles from the Clan Wars in World of Tanks or GvG matches/tournaments in Guild Wars 1.
What is your point exactly? You think stories can only come from MMOs? Famous personalities and clans can be found in virtually any multiplayer game if you would only engage with the community. MMOs are nothing special in this. Open world PvP or no.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
You've spent the better part of this thread making it seem like open world PVP games are just for people who want to gank and destroy the weak. When in fact they're most conducive to developing the community feel and interaction that is lacking from near every theme park on the market.
I couldn't give two pisses in a bottle about MOBA's, seems a lot of PVPers agree on that.
You're probably not getting the point because you're pulling the bait and switch. Now you wanna talk about something else entirely. Well no, you've been very off point on everything you've had to say about open world PVP thus far.
Sure, you can get some great stories and memories in games like WoT; insane comebacks that seemed almost impossible, a match where you basically single-handedly carried your team to victory, or an evenly matched game that went back and forth right to the very end.
However, I can genuinely tell you that those types of tales pale in comparison to what you'll find in some of the better Open world PVP MMOs. There's simply not enough "meat" in those types of games to put together the kind of sandwich you've likely never had the pleasure of taking a bite of. Perhaps you've skimmed the surface of some of the titles in question and never progressed far enough to know what everyone is talking about, but clearly you have missed out entirely.
As I said though, those other types of games can be quite memorable, but they're just not in the same ballpark when it comes what you can experience in an open world PVP game.
P.S. this is also why it's so sad that most MMO PVP is completely terrible. The huge potential is right there...
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I don't think for him thought that it's as much about the community as it is "I want to be the best and compete against the best, and it should always be fair" or something like that.
I don't buy it. If you're taking the time to compete, you want to win, otherwise, why do it? I'm not saying transcend the game rules to get an unfair advantage, but outside that I'm sure most anyone would do everything in their power to win. This isn't any different in an open world PVP game. If you're red you're dead, etc.
The problem that people have with open world PVP has nothing to do with beating on noobs or however they want to package the argument as. They don't want to put themselves out there, be vulnerable, and have the potential to face uneven odds at any given moment. Some people just can't handle that.
And that's fine. But please, enough about the poor little newbies and them getting ganked. Nobody really cares about that. Noobs get beat up in every type of online game, that's how this works. You have to approach games like that with the understanding that you will die, noobie or not, and that there will be jerks. It's perfectly fine if you don't want to play those games, but why the big charade as for the reason.
This is the problem with using Twitch as the basis for this discussion (which the OP did). It doesn't correlate.
As for the other aspects of open-world PvP vs. non-OW pvp games, that's an entirely separate discussion. One that's been pounded into the ground by countless other threads.
While people who enjoy those games may feel like they are beneficial, that they strengthen community, the realty paints a very different sort of picture. Far more people get turned away from these types of games because of experiences where newer players are trying to do their own thing / still learning the game, only to be completely annihilated by max lvl players. Or worse, games where you have bands of these players that actively go looking for easy kills. It happens much more often then it should.
And to the 50-100 honorable pvpers in these games that really are invested in the pvp experience, it might feel like to them that they have a really strong community. But when you try to equate that to the game as a whole, it becomes a bit like pointing to 5 homeless men around a trash fire and calling them an important 'tight knight' community in relation to a city.
I play MOBAs for my PvP fix. Straight to the point, direct to the fun. No need for 6 months commitment gearing up, runing, enchanting, etc. MOBas have fair and stable ladder systems, and everyone has the same opportunities to win, only based on skill, without gear gaps. And you're not stuck with the class that you levelled and geared up till the end of time after they nerfed it and made it unviable. Because if they nerf a champion in a MOBA, I just have to pick another next game, not spend 1-2 months of hard commitment to level another class and gear it up.
I always feel that PvP'ing in a MMO is getting on a slow, long term race to get better gear than your peers and have an edge over them, or flex it while pretending to be afk in town. In a MOBA every battle resets your gear, and only your skill counts. I'm aware this is frightening to some people, but to me that's where the beauty of it lies.
My opinion is my own. I respect all other opinions and views equally, but keep in mind that my opinion will always be the best for me. That's why it's my opinion.
Well that's the topic I like. I like open world PVP. I didn't bring it up, I just joined in.
The open world PVP games on the market right now maybe aren't doing so good. Because you're right, a lot of the traditional MMO crowd abhor them. But once MMO's become more available on consoles, the console market will create a demand for stronger PVP focus. And I fully expect that they'll want open world PVP games. Completely different market of players.
And outside a handful of MMO's, basically all of their communities can be viewed like how you're talking about, open world PVP or not.
I just fell in love with the way you write stuff, I'v been that old man!
Herald of innovation, Vanquisher of the old! - Awake a few hours almost everyday!
Roses are red
Violets are blue
The reviewer has a mishapen head
Which means his opinion is skewed
...Aldous.MF'n.Huxley
I've played Eve Online for nearly 3 years. Atlas, Black Legion, Nulli Secunda, NC... I was an FC and a co-CEO... PvP was the main thing I did in that game. Tell me, how have I missed out?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
They seem to be different types of experiences to me. One is more like playing a sport. The other is more like being involved in a story.
But we are not talking about the popularity of PLAYING MOBA .. we are talking about the popularity of MOBA, watching and playing .. as entertainment.
And the murder example is totally off-base. And yes, if you count watching fictitious murders .. it is a popular pass-time since many watch detective shows.