Originally posted by saker The cult-of-infinite-greed that is Murican-style crony-capitalism killed the genre. When the "money-men" are in charge any creativity is murdered in the crib. And you can't have any kind of half-way decent gaming industry without creativity.
Guess it is time for you to look for a new hobby.
Unless you care to vote for socialism that is.
Why do you people constantly bitch about things that are not going to change? Its pointless...
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Originally posted by saker The cult-of-infinite-greed that is Murican-style crony-capitalism killed the genre. When the "money-men" are in charge any creativity is murdered in the crib. And you can't have any kind of half-way decent gaming industry without creativity.
Guess it is time for you to look for a new hobby.
Unless you care to vote for socialism that is.
Why do you people constantly bitch about things that are not going to change? Its pointless...
Socialized gaming is already here. It's called F2P and that is why I will not support it.
And Saker,
The people you mock by saying "merica", are against crony-capitalism too. The answer is not socialism, but back to a true Free Market system before the Frankfurt School infiltrated our nation.
Originally posted by saker The cult-of-infinite-greed that is Murican-style crony-capitalism killed the genre. When the "money-men" are in charge any creativity is murdered in the crib. And you can't have any kind of half-way decent gaming industry without creativity.
Guess it is time for you to look for a new hobby.
Unless you care to vote for socialism that is.
Why do you people constantly bitch about things that are not going to change? Its pointless...
Socialized gaming is already here. It's called F2P and that is why I will not support it.
And Saker,
The people you mock by saying "merica", are against crony-capitalism too. The answer is not socialism, but back to a true Free Market system before the Frankfurt School infiltrated our nation.
No... F2P games, are the ultimate representation of capitalism while P2P games, the games where everyone puts their money into one pot, are the ultimate representation of communism.
Originally posted by saker The cult-of-infinite-greed that is Murican-style crony-capitalism killed the genre. When the "money-men" are in charge any creativity is murdered in the crib. And you can't have any kind of half-way decent gaming industry without creativity.
Guess it is time for you to look for a new hobby.
Unless you care to vote for socialism that is.
Why do you people constantly bitch about things that are not going to change? Its pointless...
Socialized gaming is already here. It's called F2P and that is why I will not support it.
And Saker,
The people you mock by saying "merica", are against crony-capitalism too. The answer is not socialism, but back to a true Free Market system before the Frankfurt School infiltrated our nation.
No... F2P games, are the ultimate representation of capitalism while P2P games, the games where everyone puts their money into one pot, are the ultimate representation of communism.
I disagree.
People that spend money i.e. sub options = taxpayers.
People that don't pay, rely on paying gamers = welfare, section 8 freeloaders.
Know who else puts there money into one pot? A restaurant. Movie theater. etc etc. Is that communism, too?
Originally posted by saker The cult-of-infinite-greed that is Murican-style crony-capitalism killed the genre. When the "money-men" are in charge any creativity is murdered in the crib. And you can't have any kind of half-way decent gaming industry without creativity.
Guess it is time for you to look for a new hobby.
Unless you care to vote for socialism that is.
Why do you people constantly bitch about things that are not going to change? Its pointless...
Socialized gaming is already here. It's called F2P and that is why I will not support it.
And Saker,
The people you mock by saying "merica", are against crony-capitalism too. The answer is not socialism, but back to a true Free Market system before the Frankfurt School infiltrated our nation.
No... F2P games, are the ultimate representation of capitalism while P2P games, the games where everyone puts their money into one pot, are the ultimate representation of communism.
I disagree.
People that spend money i.e. sub options = taxpayers.
People that don't pay, rely on paying gamers = welfare, section 8 freeloaders.
I think it's funny that you associate paying taxes with capitalism.
And it's not just the pot, it's the REQUIRED to put money into the pot that makes it socialist.
Originally posted by saker The cult-of-infinite-greed that is Murican-style crony-capitalism killed the genre. When the "money-men" are in charge any creativity is murdered in the crib. And you can't have any kind of half-way decent gaming industry without creativity.
Guess it is time for you to look for a new hobby.
Unless you care to vote for socialism that is.
Why do you people constantly bitch about things that are not going to change? Its pointless...
Socialized gaming is already here. It's called F2P and that is why I will not support it.
And Saker,
The people you mock by saying "merica", are against crony-capitalism too. The answer is not socialism, but back to a true Free Market system before the Frankfurt School infiltrated our nation.
No... F2P games, are the ultimate representation of capitalism while P2P games, the games where everyone puts their money into one pot, are the ultimate representation of communism.
I disagree.
People that spend money i.e. sub options = taxpayers.
People that don't pay, rely on paying gamers = welfare, section 8 freeloaders.
I think it's funny that you associate paying taxes with capitalism.
And it's not just the pot, it's the REQUIRED to put money into the pot that makes it socialist.
Have a few more chuckles, because that's not what I am saying at all.
Taxation is theft by use of force. Government is force.
Taking money away from one person and redistributing it to another is socialism.
You are REQUIRED to pay for every service, or else why the FACK would anyone bother to work? That is not communism.
Seem to me massively mulitplayer online game is the correct term for just about any game to come out the last 10 years. RP is extremely limited to nonexistant (and before you comment, no stories are not RP). Some RP may sneak in with a few of the sandboxes that are coming.
The mmog's or mog's are alive and well, and fun enough if you accept what they are. And hopefully for the narrower audience who likes mmoRPg, those upcoming niche games will fill the void there is right now.
Too many games lost their identity in the chase to become larger, more profitable than last month. Instead of sticking to what made the game popular they deviated, and most, if not all, paid the price. DDO was the only game that was able to turn a dog into a winner. But that only lasted a year before they decided to go against what made them popular.
Originally posted by saker The cult-of-infinite-greed that is Murican-style crony-capitalism killed the genre. When the "money-men" are in charge any creativity is murdered in the crib. And you can't have any kind of half-way decent gaming industry without creativity.
Guess it is time for you to look for a new hobby.
Unless you care to vote for socialism that is.
Why do you people constantly bitch about things that are not going to change? Its pointless...
Socialized gaming is already here. It's called F2P and that is why I will not support it.
And Saker,
The people you mock by saying "merica", are against crony-capitalism too. The answer is not socialism, but back to a true Free Market system before the Frankfurt School infiltrated our nation.
No... F2P games, are the ultimate representation of capitalism while P2P games, the games where everyone puts their money into one pot, are the ultimate representation of communism.
I disagree.
People that spend money i.e. sub options = taxpayers.
People that don't pay, rely on paying gamers = welfare, section 8 freeloaders.
I think it's funny that you associate paying taxes with capitalism.
And it's not just the pot, it's the REQUIRED to put money into the pot that makes it socialist.
Have a few more chuckles, because that's not what I am saying at all.
Taxation is theft by use of force. Government is force.
Taking money away from one person and redistributing it to another is socialism.
You are REQUIRED to pay for every service, or else why the FACK would anyone bother to work? That is not communism.
No, you are not required to pay for every service. Everything in real life is a-la-cart - just like F2P games once you start playing them. Once you start playing a P2P game, it is required that you dish out your taxes to the thieving government (which is another ridiculous statement).
These aren't perfect analogies and they never work quite right for an insane amount of reasons, but P2P falls fall closer to socialist idealism than it does to capitalist and F2P games fall far closer to capitalist idealism than it does to socialist. Just the idea of P2W should give it away.
If WoW were to disappear today, imagine how many great new MMOs would come out of the wood works, how many meh, so-so MMOs would get the attention and funding to turn them into great ones.
An analogy from the forest - as long as the old giant tree stands, throwing shade on everything that came after it, below it, nothing there will flourish. It doesn't matter if the old tree is rotten at its core, all but dead, a monument to a bygone era, it's sheer bulk and mass carries it on, long past it's time. It'll even kill it's own seedlings.
Don't complain that nothing new will grow while you continue to worship the old. Yes, we all understand, 10 years ago you carved "xxDwarfLover669xx + Wow 4ever" into the tree's skin, and, god forbid, your own. But with the stretching and bulging that measured the years, it's really hard to still make out what it was you wrote or meant, and to anyone not "in on it" it now just reads "suxors!1!! thx 4 all the cashz!! kbai!1 WoW"
Actually, I think less MMOs would get funding if that happened. Wow is the reason that companies like EA put so much money into MMOs. We could of course discuss if that money was well spent but Wow did inspire investors at least.
The already existing games could put in more work going for the top but they could just as well cut down on devs since their top competitor is down, they will get some of those players for free.
Nah, what we need is a few more games with 1-3 million players and good earnings, preferably games that use new and different mechanics and earn in a good sum of cash. That would inspire investors to put money in new thinking games instead.
Right now they see Wow losing income and Hearthstone actually earning more than Wow while Wildstar is flopping and ESO seems to be at least in some problems. That makes most investors thinking about onnline trading card games instead of MMOs, and those are relatively cheap to make unlike MMOs.
I agree on the "investors" part,but have investor driven games been any good?
My fave game FFXI was in house,created to not break even for 5 years after release,that just does not happen EVER in this industry.Now the game designs are shallow and rushed way sooner than should be.Developers now are looking for INSTANT profits,make a cheap game get a quick buck,then put nothing into the game after except cash shop and sell us a shallow expansion pack.
The current trend is what devs are calling EARLY ACCESS,which is a pile of rubbish.Early access would be a game that is not nearly half done,aka development process,except you will not see even a 25% improvement in these games,you will see VERY little change from the time they take your dollars to the actual release.
The ONLY thing early access does is allow a crappy developer to have an excuse for a crap product.If they sold these products claiming them to be finished products they would get mass flamed and mass refunds.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Seem to me massively mulitplayer online game is the correct term for just about any game to come out the last 10 years. RP is extremely limited to nonexistant (and before you comment, no stories are not RP). Some RP may sneak in with a few of the sandboxes that are coming.
The mmog's or mog's are alive and well, and fun enough if you accept what they are. And hopefully for the narrower audience who likes mmoRPg, those upcoming niche games will fill the void there is right now.
I vote MOG.com. Because they are not massive anymore either and even "multiplayer" is pushing it these days.
Originally posted by saker The cult-of-infinite-greed that is Murican-style crony-capitalism killed the genre. When the "money-men" are in charge any creativity is murdered in the crib. And you can't have any kind of half-way decent gaming industry without creativity.
Guess it is time for you to look for a new hobby.
Unless you care to vote for socialism that is.
Why do you people constantly bitch about things that are not going to change? Its pointless...
Socialized gaming is already here. It's called F2P and that is why I will not support it.
And Saker,
The people you mock by saying "merica", are against crony-capitalism too. The answer is not socialism, but back to a true Free Market system before the Frankfurt School infiltrated our nation.
No... F2P games, are the ultimate representation of capitalism while P2P games, the games where everyone puts their money into one pot, are the ultimate representation of communism.
I disagree.
People that spend money i.e. sub options = taxpayers.
People that don't pay, rely on paying gamers = welfare, section 8 freeloaders.
I think it's funny that you associate paying taxes with capitalism.
And it's not just the pot, it's the REQUIRED to put money into the pot that makes it socialist.
Have a few more chuckles, because that's not what I am saying at all.
Taxation is theft by use of force. Government is force.
Taking money away from one person and redistributing it to another is socialism.
You are REQUIRED to pay for every service, or else why the FACK would anyone bother to work? That is not communism.
It's funny how capitalist so despise seeing anyone get something for free that it blinds them to how similar the P2P model is to communism, with everyone paying exactly the same small fee and being completely equal with everyone else inside the game.
Wheres in the F2P model the people who pay $15 a month get a huge advantage over the people who pay nothing, and the people who pay $100 a month get a huge advantage over people who pay $15 a month, and the people who pay $1,000 a month get a huge advantage over the people who pay $100 a month.
Some are pessimistic about the genre... Personally I am nothing but optimistic. The reason is the very concept of an mmorpg is a game has the greatest scope and is a concept which people will always desire in a game.
In other words people will always desire a game where they can play as a character with thousands of others together in a large virtual world.
It could be on the horizon or it could be a few years from now but In my opinion the genre is only going to start picking up from here and we will see it from developers taking risks with new innovative concepts, game mechanics, sweat and blood.
Started playing mmorpg's in 1996 and have been hooked ever since. It began with Kingdom of Drakkar, Ultima Online, Everquest, DAoC, WoW...
Some are pessimistic about the genre... Personally I am nothing but optimistic. The reason is the very concept of an mmorpg is a game has the greatest scope and is a concept which people will always desire in a game.
In other words people will always desire a game where they can play as a character with thousands of others together in a large virtual world.
It could be on the horizon or it could be a few years from now but In my opinion the genre is only going to start picking up from here and we will see it from developers taking risks with new innovative concepts, game mechanics, sweat and blood.
Developers have been taking risks for a long time now. The first companies that used voice work and cut scenes for quests where taking risks to try something new. Instances where risky at one point in time. So was the dungeon finder. The list could go on and on as well.
Innovation isn't about just creating new things you like. Even those new attempts to create game mechanics you didn't like count. Even something like Scarlet Blade would count as someone taking a risk and trying something new by the use of young girls you could pay to make nude if you like.
The amount of new risk taking isn't going to change just the types of risks and innovation these developers take. Maybe you will like where the industry goes and maybe you won't but it's not like innovation hasn't happened since WoW was released.
Each year there are more MMOs, more innovations, better graphics, less obstacles to entry and a plethora of niche features all of which benefit the consumer.
Sure there are games I shake my head at and wonder what they were thinking. Sure there are games I will miss and other games that I rage quit. However these are all personal issues.
For every person here that bemoans the genre there are plenty more people playing an MMO for the first time and becoming hooked.
Long ago you had to visit a store, shell out $50, patiently install a game from 5 CD's, pay your sub and finally wait for everything to load. Now I don't even have to get dressed or even shell out any money before trying many games.
Long ago I had 1 game loaded and ready to go. Now thanks to F2P and B2P I have 5 options to meet my daily MMO fix.
Long ago I dreamed of being a Jedi, or a superhero, or a hobbit. I longed to visit the worlds of Tolkein, Salvatore, Lucas or Roddenberry. This has all come to pass.
In every material sense MMO's represent a thriving, successful gaming genre that attracts more players, more investment and more creativity with each year that passes.
Good stuff.
Del Cabon A US Army ('Just Cause') Vet and MMORPG Native formerly of Trinsic, Norath and Dereth. Currently playing LOTRO.
Originally posted by remyburke F2P killed the genre.
Entitled Gamers killed the genre...
Just because one company does things a certain way (F2P) that is now expected to be the standard.
Business Pitch: I need $150M to develop the next big MMO gaming franchise!
Investor: How much are you going to charge for the product.
BP: Nothing, it's free
Investor:
If you think f2p games are really free you don't have a good grasp of business or economics.
I bet the NFL gave that prime time spot during the super bowl to Clash of Clans out of generosity because surely that free game couldn't afford to buy one. Yea, right.
Have a few more chuckles, because that's not what I am saying at all.
Taxation is theft by use of force. Government is force.
Taking money away from one person and redistributing it to another is socialism.
You are REQUIRED to pay for every service, or else why the FACK would anyone bother to work? That is not communism.
It's funny how capitalist so despise seeing anyone get something for free that it blinds them to how similar the P2P model is to communism, with everyone paying exactly the same small fee and being completely equal with everyone else inside the game.
Wheres in the F2P model the people who pay $15 a month get a huge advantage over the people who pay nothing, and the people who pay $100 a month get a huge advantage over people who pay $15 a month, and the people who pay $1,000 a month get a huge advantage over the people who pay $100 a month.
It's strange that you can try and use such a simple example and not see the implications towards your own argument.
I mean... using your example, neither F2P games or P2P games are communist or capitalist. P2P games are buffet restaurants and F2P games are regular restaurants. Which is kind of funny because you are trying to argue the complete opposite.
I think we can expect that Dragon's Prophet,just recently released to be shut down rather soon?
Dragon's Prophet was released about a year and a half ago, and it was profitable enough to keep running when they got rid of Vanguard, Free Realms, SWCWA and Wizardry Online. I haven't seen anything that indicates it has had a downturn recently. Has there been one?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Comments
Guess it is time for you to look for a new hobby.
Unless you care to vote for socialism that is.
Why do you people constantly bitch about things that are not going to change? Its pointless...
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Socialized gaming is already here. It's called F2P and that is why I will not support it.
And Saker,
The people you mock by saying "merica", are against crony-capitalism too. The answer is not socialism, but back to a true Free Market system before the Frankfurt School infiltrated our nation.
No... F2P games, are the ultimate representation of capitalism while P2P games, the games where everyone puts their money into one pot, are the ultimate representation of communism.
I disagree.
People that spend money i.e. sub options = taxpayers.
People that don't pay, rely on paying gamers = welfare, section 8 freeloaders.
Know who else puts there money into one pot? A restaurant. Movie theater. etc etc. Is that communism, too?
I think it's funny that you associate paying taxes with capitalism.
And it's not just the pot, it's the REQUIRED to put money into the pot that makes it socialist.
To sum it all up...
We are bored.
Have a few more chuckles, because that's not what I am saying at all.
Taxation is theft by use of force. Government is force.
Taking money away from one person and redistributing it to another is socialism.
You are REQUIRED to pay for every service, or else why the FACK would anyone bother to work? That is not communism.
Time to rename mmorpg.com to mmog.com ?
Seem to me massively mulitplayer online game is the correct term for just about any game to come out the last 10 years. RP is extremely limited to nonexistant (and before you comment, no stories are not RP). Some RP may sneak in with a few of the sandboxes that are coming.
The mmog's or mog's are alive and well, and fun enough if you accept what they are. And hopefully for the narrower audience who likes mmoRPg, those upcoming niche games will fill the void there is right now.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
No, you are not required to pay for every service. Everything in real life is a-la-cart - just like F2P games once you start playing them. Once you start playing a P2P game, it is required that you dish out your taxes to the thieving government (which is another ridiculous statement).
These aren't perfect analogies and they never work quite right for an insane amount of reasons, but P2P falls fall closer to socialist idealism than it does to capitalist and F2P games fall far closer to capitalist idealism than it does to socialist. Just the idea of P2W should give it away.
I agree on the "investors" part,but have investor driven games been any good?
My fave game FFXI was in house,created to not break even for 5 years after release,that just does not happen EVER in this industry.Now the game designs are shallow and rushed way sooner than should be.Developers now are looking for INSTANT profits,make a cheap game get a quick buck,then put nothing into the game after except cash shop and sell us a shallow expansion pack.
The current trend is what devs are calling EARLY ACCESS,which is a pile of rubbish.Early access would be a game that is not nearly half done,aka development process,except you will not see even a 25% improvement in these games,you will see VERY little change from the time they take your dollars to the actual release.
The ONLY thing early access does is allow a crappy developer to have an excuse for a crap product.If they sold these products claiming them to be finished products they would get mass flamed and mass refunds.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I vote MOG.com. Because they are not massive anymore either and even "multiplayer" is pushing it these days.
It's funny how capitalist so despise seeing anyone get something for free that it blinds them to how similar the P2P model is to communism, with everyone paying exactly the same small fee and being completely equal with everyone else inside the game.
Wheres in the F2P model the people who pay $15 a month get a huge advantage over the people who pay nothing, and the people who pay $100 a month get a huge advantage over people who pay $15 a month, and the people who pay $1,000 a month get a huge advantage over the people who pay $100 a month.
Some are pessimistic about the genre... Personally I am nothing but optimistic. The reason is the very concept of an mmorpg is a game has the greatest scope and is a concept which people will always desire in a game.
In other words people will always desire a game where they can play as a character with thousands of others together in a large virtual world.
It could be on the horizon or it could be a few years from now but In my opinion the genre is only going to start picking up from here and we will see it from developers taking risks with new innovative concepts, game mechanics, sweat and blood.
Entitled Gamers killed the genre...
Just because one company does things a certain way (F2P) that is now expected to be the standard.
Business Pitch: I need $150M to develop the next big MMO gaming franchise!
Investor: How much are you going to charge for the product.
BP: Nothing, it's free
Investor: <door slams>
What are your other Hobbies?
Gaming is Dirt Cheap compared to this...
Developers have been taking risks for a long time now. The first companies that used voice work and cut scenes for quests where taking risks to try something new. Instances where risky at one point in time. So was the dungeon finder. The list could go on and on as well.
Innovation isn't about just creating new things you like. Even those new attempts to create game mechanics you didn't like count. Even something like Scarlet Blade would count as someone taking a risk and trying something new by the use of young girls you could pay to make nude if you like.
The amount of new risk taking isn't going to change just the types of risks and innovation these developers take. Maybe you will like where the industry goes and maybe you won't but it's not like innovation hasn't happened since WoW was released.
There are more people playing MMOs today than at any time in the past.
For the consumer there are more options today than at any time in the past.
MMOs have seen increased market share and revenue year over year (http://www.superdataresearch.com/market-data/mmo-market/).
Each year there are more MMOs, more innovations, better graphics, less obstacles to entry and a plethora of niche features all of which benefit the consumer.
Sure there are games I shake my head at and wonder what they were thinking. Sure there are games I will miss and other games that I rage quit. However these are all personal issues.
For every person here that bemoans the genre there are plenty more people playing an MMO for the first time and becoming hooked.
Long ago you had to visit a store, shell out $50, patiently install a game from 5 CD's, pay your sub and finally wait for everything to load. Now I don't even have to get dressed or even shell out any money before trying many games.
Long ago I had 1 game loaded and ready to go. Now thanks to F2P and B2P I have 5 options to meet my daily MMO fix.
Long ago I dreamed of being a Jedi, or a superhero, or a hobbit. I longed to visit the worlds of Tolkein, Salvatore, Lucas or Roddenberry. This has all come to pass.
In every material sense MMO's represent a thriving, successful gaming genre that attracts more players, more investment and more creativity with each year that passes.
Good stuff.
Del Cabon
A US Army ('Just Cause') Vet and MMORPG Native formerly of Trinsic, Norath and Dereth. Currently playing LOTRO.
If you think f2p games are really free you don't have a good grasp of business or economics.
I bet the NFL gave that prime time spot during the super bowl to Clash of Clans out of generosity because surely that free game couldn't afford to buy one. Yea, right.
self righteous players killed the genre ( *my desired revenue strategy is the best, everything else ruined the genre*)
gankers ruined OWPvP (*if you don't want to be killed by my twink, L2P or play a different game noob*)
hackers ruined PvE
cheaters ruined PvP
The problem with mmorpg's is not the games themselves, it's the people.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
Are restaurants communist?
SWTOR is a good relevant example.
I think we can expect that Dragon's Prophet,just recently released to be shut down rather soon?
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
It's strange that you can try and use such a simple example and not see the implications towards your own argument.
I mean... using your example, neither F2P games or P2P games are communist or capitalist. P2P games are buffet restaurants and F2P games are regular restaurants. Which is kind of funny because you are trying to argue the complete opposite.
Dragon's Prophet was released about a year and a half ago, and it was profitable enough to keep running when they got rid of Vanguard, Free Realms, SWCWA and Wizardry Online. I haven't seen anything that indicates it has had a downturn recently. Has there been one?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre