Please don't confuse the word popular with the word best. WoW is the most popular MMORPG out there, it doesn't naturally make it the best or the right way to make a game, it just makes it popular. Katy Perry is not the best singer in the world, 50 Shades of Grey was not the best movie released so far this year. Popular means aimed at the largest crowd. It generally means lacking in any depth though it isn't always true.
As a MMORPG fan I don't really want them building a game that is going to be 'popular'. I want a niche game that is actually better. Better is obviously a subjective word but if enough niche games come out everyone can find their better instead of just being stuck with what is most popular which is a mediocre game for most.
Like you confusing what games you think is better is actually better for most? Or becuase you think it's mediocre it's mediocre for most? Hyprocrisy at it's best. This is the problem with you EQ fans. That superiority complex is disturbing.
He is actually right in what he says.
Fast food is bad for you, but a lot of people love it and will defend it.
Documentaries are very niche, but teach you more then any of the top grossing movies.
EQ had a lot more depth to it in many ways then MMOs today. It wasn't always a healthy experience due to the time people decided to invest in it, but it's world had a lot of complexities that made it more interesting IMO.
EQ had a lot more depth to it in many ways then MMOs today. It wasn't always a healthy experience due to the time people decided to invest in it, but it's world had a lot of complexities that made it more interesting IMO.
Lol .. EQ has depth? Static spawn as content is the anti-thesis of depth. There is little interactivity to the environment .. and everyone is waiting on having other to do.
If that is depth, i am very glad we have less of that today.
Please don't confuse the word popular with the word best. WoW is the most popular MMORPG out there, it doesn't naturally make it the best or the right way to make a game, it just makes it popular. Katy Perry is not the best singer in the world, 50 Shades of Grey was not the best movie released so far this year. Popular means aimed at the largest crowd. It generally means lacking in any depth though it isn't always true.
As a MMORPG fan I don't really want them building a game that is going to be 'popular'. I want a niche game that is actually better. Better is obviously a subjective word but if enough niche games come out everyone can find their better instead of just being stuck with what is most popular which is a mediocre game for most.
Like you confusing what games you think is better is actually better for most? Or becuase you think it's mediocre it's mediocre for most? Hyprocrisy at it's best. This is the problem with you EQ fans. That superiority complex is disturbing.
He is actually right in what he says.
Fast food is bad for you, but a lot of people love it and will defend it.
Documentaries are very niche, but teach you more then any of the top grossing movies.
EQ had a lot more depth to it in many ways then MMOs today. It wasn't always a healthy experience due to the time people decided to invest in it, but it's world had a lot of complexities that made it more interesting IMO.
Oh please!!!! he's not right nor wrong. It's just a different opinion like everyone else. He needs to stop making generlizations that what he thinks is superior to others.
Most good food is bad for you, doesn't make it any less good.
Right. More interesting to you and keep it that way. Don't be going and gernerlizing and saying it's better for most becasuse you say so like he does.
Here's my opinion, EQ was a very fun game for it's time. I had alot of fun in it. It was like crack when it first came out but, it's not the great game that you people like to say it is. For one thing it did right, it did so much more wrong. So it's not the holy grail of MMORPGs like you guys like to tout it to be. IMO.
EQ had a lot more depth to it in many ways then MMOs today. It wasn't always a healthy experience due to the time people decided to invest in it, but it's world had a lot of complexities that made it more interesting IMO.
Lol .. EQ has depth? Static spawn as content is the anti-thesis of depth. There is little interactivity to the environment .. and everyone is waiting on having other to do.
If that is depth, i am very glad we have less of that today.
It had depth in that you could actually do more then just grind quests, do PvP that doesn't really matter, and grind for loot.
The crafting was fairly complex.
Things were rare and difficult to acquire.
There were player formed bazaars.
There were a lot more interesting class abilities and variety of abilities.
Classes were actually very different from each other.
You could actually trade items an infinite number of times and it didn't matter that much because the items didn't really have a large impact on your character in most cases. The only time this wasn't true was in items like the ones from Epic quests that were added later.
You had to learn to avoid things like trains.
You had to learn how to share with others and wait your turn (camping).
There were a lot of fun and unique utility spells (I've gone over this in depth before).
There were a variety of different environments to explore and they weren't laid out in any specific order.
Dying stopped you from progressing if you weren't able to defeat your enemies with any form of consistency. Some classes had the ability utility spells that allow them to track corpses that people lost. This made them wanted in groups.
The mobs had a large variety of level range in each zone making them difficult to traverse alone.
The buffing system was a lot more complex then in games today. Buffs lasted a lot longer and not all buffs stacked.
People would actually pay for things like buffs and teleports making the community work together and become more intertwined.
The dungeons were very complex. There were traps, invisible walls, invisible floors, windy tunnels, frozen stairs/bridges you could easily slip off of, pools of lava you had to wade through, cages you could become locked inside of, large underwater areas, etc.
Pulling was another class defining trait. Usually monks or bards would pull because monks had feign death and Bards could lull/mezmerize and take more damage then other classes. Sometimes Druids/Rangers would pull because they had things like harmony, snare, and root.
There were different factions for each race. You could raise your faction by killing the enemy of the faction you wanted to become friendly with. The enchanter had unique spells to help them with factions. They could cast illusion spells to take the form of other races/things and could also cast spells to increase their faction with other factions.
Races each had their own unique starting area and culture. Each one with their own unique factions/beliefs/classes/appearance.
Spells were not given to players. Many times they didn't even know a certain spell existed until it was crafted by another player. I remember when KEI came out people had to pay others to get it. Many spells required that you find certain items needed to craft the spell. I recall that WoW made this easy by having all spells available to purchase. Now they have taken a step further where it is automatically given to you as soon as you level up. Finding/crafting spells was part of the roleplaying/progression experience. It also gave a chance for a little uniqueness as not everyone had everything in game.
There were abilities like sense heading, forage, and tracking that again added to the roleplaying part of the game. They were part of the progression of a character just as much as killing and looting is. Most games only have the killing and the looting these days though because it is simple and everyone understands the value of it.
I could probably come up with more things, but EQ was clearly not a simple game. It had a lot more possible things a player could do/roleplay with and needed to be away of like making sure they have food and drink on hand.
There were some downsides like grinding for certain loot became a bit of an obsession at times. People spent many hours grinding for loot.
I'd like to see what games have as many things that make the classes and world feel as alive as EQ did to me. I think a large part of it was the community, but without the proper tools and world structure the community would have been hard pressed to have become so enthusiastic about playing the game.
There were a lot more interesting class abilities and variety of abilities.
Crafting is really not the central part of MMOs anymore .. but i will give you that.
Difficult to acquire != depth. It is difficulty merely because of the wait. So you can't get the gear unless you have time to camp 20 hours. Combat is trivial compared to today's games. There is little resource management aside from mana, no CDs, no procs, no physics based effects.
Interesting class abilities? Like what? 20 versions of direct damage spell that each has a different name with a higher damage?
I will take a game like Diablo 3 any day in terms of combat abilities over EQ type design.
Forming bazaars is not depth ... and is not even in the game. That is no different that people trading Diablo 2 stuff on websites.
There were a lot more interesting class abilities and variety of abilities.
Crafting is really not the central part of MMOs anymore .. but i will give you that.
Difficult to acquire != depth. It is difficulty merely because of the wait. So you can't get the gear unless you have time to camp 20 hours. Combat is trivial compared to today's games. There is little resource management aside from mana, no CDs, no procs, no physics based effects.
Interesting class abilities? Like what? 20 versions of direct damage spell that each has a different name with a higher damage?
I will take a game like Diablo 3 any day in terms of combat abilities over EQ type design.
Forming bazaars is not depth ... and is not even in the game. That is no different that people trading Diablo 2 stuff on websites.
I just went over why most of those things added depth, but you only picked the first four lines that were more or less basic ideas with no explanation. This is pretty much why MMOs are bad now. If you can't read my post and the points I made you and likely many others don't have the patience to learn and enjoy the nuances of a game like EQ.
I just went over why most of those things added depth, but you only picked the first four lines that were more or less basic ideas with no explanation. This is pretty much why MMOs are bad now. If you can't read my post and the points I made you and likely many others don't have the patience to learn and enjoy the nuances of a game like EQ.
you got it ... there is no patience to play these games. It is about having fun ... NOW.
If i have patience (which unfortunately you will never find out), i will use it on my wife, my kids, my job, my colleagues ... and probably won't waste it on games.
and btw, there is little learning in EQ .. the patience is reserved to wait in down-time. I don't need to learn to stand in line ... i start doing that at check-out lines when i was young.
I just went over why most of those things added depth, but you only picked the first four lines that were more or less basic ideas with no explanation. This is pretty much why MMOs are bad now. If you can't read my post and the points I made you and likely many others don't have the patience to learn and enjoy the nuances of a game like EQ.
you got it ... there is no patience to play these games. It is about having fun ... NOW.
If i have patience (which unfortunately you will never find out), i will use it on my wife, my kids, my job, my colleagues ... and probably won't waste it on games.
and btw, there is little learning in EQ .. the patience is reserved to wait in down-time. I don't need to learn to stand in line ... i start doing that at check-out lines when i was young.
You have proven in two paragraphs why games have no depth anymore.
I just went over why most of those things added depth, but you only picked the first four lines that were more or less basic ideas with no explanation. This is pretty much why MMOs are bad now. If you can't read my post and the points I made you and likely many others don't have the patience to learn and enjoy the nuances of a game like EQ.
you got it ... there is no patience to play these games. It is about having fun ... NOW.
If i have patience (which unfortunately you will never find out), i will use it on my wife, my kids, my job, my colleagues ... and probably won't waste it on games.
and btw, there is little learning in EQ .. the patience is reserved to wait in down-time. I don't need to learn to stand in line ... i start doing that at check-out lines when i was young.
You have proven in two paragraphs why games have no depth anymore.
Wait, him wanting to have fun NOW and not have the patience for the annoyances of EQ makes all the new games bad and no depth? Am I reading this right? LMAO There it is again, that EQ fan superiority complex. I knew it was going to come out sooner or later.
I just went over why most of those things added depth, but you only picked the first four lines that were more or less basic ideas with no explanation. This is pretty much why MMOs are bad now. If you can't read my post and the points I made you and likely many others don't have the patience to learn and enjoy the nuances of a game like EQ.
you got it ... there is no patience to play these games. It is about having fun ... NOW.
If i have patience (which unfortunately you will never find out), i will use it on my wife, my kids, my job, my colleagues ... and probably won't waste it on games.
and btw, there is little learning in EQ .. the patience is reserved to wait in down-time. I don't need to learn to stand in line ... i start doing that at check-out lines when i was young.
You have proven in two paragraphs why games have no depth anymore.
Wait, him wanting to have fun NOW and not have the patience for the annoyances of EQ makes all the new games bad and no depth? Am I reading this right? LMAO There it is again, that EQ fan superiority complex. I knew it was going to come out sooner or later.
What makes the game bad and have no depth is people like yourself I would imagine. You can't be bothered to travel. You can't be bothered with any game mechanics then fighting and looting. You can't be bothered with just about anything. What you end up with is basically fighting and looting. Somehow that is the only fun part of games according to people like yourself.
I just went over why most of those things added depth, but you only picked the first four lines that were more or less basic ideas with no explanation. This is pretty much why MMOs are bad now. If you can't read my post and the points I made you and likely many others don't have the patience to learn and enjoy the nuances of a game like EQ.
you got it ... there is no patience to play these games. It is about having fun ... NOW.
If i have patience (which unfortunately you will never find out), i will use it on my wife, my kids, my job, my colleagues ... and probably won't waste it on games.
and btw, there is little learning in EQ .. the patience is reserved to wait in down-time. I don't need to learn to stand in line ... i start doing that at check-out lines when i was young.
You have proven in two paragraphs why games have no depth anymore.
Wait, him wanting to have fun NOW and not have the patience for the annoyances of EQ makes all the new games bad and no depth? Am I reading this right? LMAO There it is again, that EQ fan superiority complex. I knew it was going to come out sooner or later.
"there is no patience to play these games. It is about having fun ... NOW."
I'm no EQ fan (didn't get my toes wet MMO-wise until WOW came out) and I have no superiority complex, but if you do not see the problem with that quote no one can help you.
Gimme gimme NOW NOW!
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I just went over why most of those things added depth, but you only picked the first four lines that were more or less basic ideas with no explanation. This is pretty much why MMOs are bad now. If you can't read my post and the points I made you and likely many others don't have the patience to learn and enjoy the nuances of a game like EQ.
you got it ... there is no patience to play these games. It is about having fun ... NOW.
If i have patience (which unfortunately you will never find out), i will use it on my wife, my kids, my job, my colleagues ... and probably won't waste it on games.
and btw, there is little learning in EQ .. the patience is reserved to wait in down-time. I don't need to learn to stand in line ... i start doing that at check-out lines when i was young.
You have proven in two paragraphs why games have no depth anymore.
Wait, him wanting to have fun NOW and not have the patience for the annoyances of EQ makes all the new games bad and no depth? Am I reading this right? LMAO There it is again, that EQ fan superiority complex. I knew it was going to come out sooner or later.
"there is no patience to play these games. It is about having fun ... NOW."
I'm no EQ fan (didn't get my toes wet MMO-wise until WOW came out) and I have no superiority complex, but if you do not see the problem with that quote no one can help you.
Gimme gimme NOW NOW!
OK.......What's the problem with the quote? The guy play games for fun, what is wrong with that. So you need patience to play games now? I'm sure i'm not the one needing help here. lol
And you do have a superiority complex. You clearly think your way of playing these games is better than how he plays it.
I personally spent longer periods of time playing old grinder MMO's with little to no questing available then I’m able to stick to new titles for. Mostly due to older titles enforcing a sense of community, it being beneficial to group play though not required or forced.
The concept of endgame was non-existent, just micro goals such as that next level, next map, completing that gear set or unlock that next skill.
To me I dislike end game, if the game is about the end why make me level? if its about the level why make it end?
Joining a grinding party and running into the same player’s day in day out and making friends.
Defending a spawn/farm area (usually against WNx) and making enemies only to meet in whatever little PvP the title had to offer.
The time spent grinding in a group having a laugh with like minded players met along the way.
I spent a lot of time in more modern games also, and also long stay of 4 years non-stop on wow which I still seem to revisit from time to time. It was just never the same as playing the games 10 years ago.
The one thing I do seem to find now days is while playing games there is very few times that users will get added to my friends list, and the ones that do are usually more of a convenience for a possible group in the future.
Back in the day it was a case of being invited to join a group as soon as you login, or inviting whoever may be online on your friends list when somebody was to leave the group.
It’s not just MMO’s that have a massive lack of community now days, it feels like the whole gaming mentality is far too toxic for such thing to exist outside of an extremely niche community such as a group of friends.
What makes the game bad and have no depth is people like yourself I would imagine. You can't be bothered to travel. You can't be bothered with any game mechanics then fighting and looting. You can't be bothered with just about anything. What you end up with is basically fighting and looting. Somehow that is the only fun part of games according to people like yourself.
so what is the problem with that?
You haven't played a game that has great combat depth, and nothing else?
BTW, i can take a good story with good scripting too. That is not too much wasted time ... as opposed to waiting in line for a static spawn.
I guess it also boils down to how committed people want to feel, do they plan for just a quick run through of content or are they looking for something more. There was also this nice discussion about rp today, which might interest those who find some view points presented here a bit shallow.
What might be a good suggestion, is to try to accept a lot of people really are looking for something more and that studies about markets are never perfect. Besides, whether or not the rpg aspects somehow do get more prevalent in some games, I find it difficult to understand how it could hurt or insult anyone here personally. Nice forum pvp, though. Mostly very civil.
Do mobas also provide pve content as in dungeons and raids?
So many people frown upon loot grinding but then EQ was the same? EQ had massive grinds. You had to grind like crazy to level up and grind like crazy when you hit max level. EQ was even worse for endgame because it only had raiding. There was not even real PvP. So all you had was raids.
Previously
PVE content in MMOs.
EQ - Start up a toon - grind mobs until max level, raid or die.
WOW - start up a toon - grind quests until max level, raid or die.
See the resemblance?
EQ was a pain to level up at launch.
WoW was a pain to level up at launch.
Fast forward to the present.
EQ is ez as shit to level up.
WoW is ez as shit to level up.
16 YEars later, endgame is still raid or die.
Do you guys see something fundamentally wrong with this?
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
OK.......What's the problem with the quote? The guy play games for fun, what is wrong with that. So you need patience to play games now? I'm sure i'm not the one needing help here. lol
And you do have a superiority complex. You clearly think your way of playing these games is better than how he plays it.
No I don't, and enough with inferiority complex. Nothing wrong with knee-slapping shits and giggles types of games, but when your entire mentality boils down to: FUN NOW FUN NOW FUN NOW! And nothing else. Something is off.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
In the over 10 years I've been playing mmo's I miss DAoC the most. I miss the big battles, the crafting, the housing everything. As time went everyone I knew left, so I did too
Their purpose is to entertain. If they do not entertain we stop playing. Simple.
So yes fun now. Fun every time i play.
And their is not any more or less depth. Their is virtually no more or less significant decisions to make in the majority of games old or new. Eq did not have more depth. You just liked it more and so participated more or liked it less and participated less.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Their purpose is to entertain. If they do not entertain we stop playing. Simple.
So yes fun now. Fun every time i play.
And their is not any more or less depth. Their is virtually no more or less significant decisions to make in the majority of games old or new. Eq did not have more depth. You just liked it more and so participated more or liked it less and participated less.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Their purpose is to entertain. If they do not entertain we stop playing. Simple.
So yes fun now. Fun every time i play.
And their is not any more or less depth. Their is virtually no more or less significant decisions to make in the majority of games old or new. Eq did not have more depth. You just liked it more and so participated more or liked it less and participated less.
This is more or less a false statement. You can't just make a blanket statement that all games have x depth. That is like saying all Asian people are nerds. It is fairly clear that EQ had a more in depth system as it offered far more options of different things to do outside of combat. I have already listed many of them, but that has been ignored. When your game consists of DPS and looting that is not an in depth game.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Their purpose is to entertain. If they do not entertain we stop playing. Simple.
So yes fun now. Fun every time i play.
And their is not any more or less depth. Their is virtually no more or less significant decisions to make in the majority of games old or new. Eq did not have more depth. You just liked it more and so participated more or liked it less and participated less.
Ding Ding Ding....someone gets it.
The bigger question is how you could possible be entertained by games with such limited options in terms of things you can do in them and whose sole purpose is to string you along by dangling better items.
Originally posted by fivoroth So many people frown upon loot grinding but then EQ was the same? EQ had massive grinds. You had to grind like crazy to level up and grind like crazy when you hit max level. EQ was even worse for endgame because it only had raiding. There was not even real PvP. So all you had was raids.PreviouslyPVE content in MMOs.EQ - Start up a toon - grind mobs until max level, raid or die.WOW - start up a toon - grind quests until max level, raid or die.See the resemblance?EQ was a pain to level up at launch.WoW was a pain to level up at launch. Fast forward to the present.EQ is ez as shit to level up.WoW is ez as shit to level up.16 YEars later, endgame is still raid or die. Do you guys see something fundamentally wrong with this?
yep, EQ was a huge grind far worse than wow. but the difference? first of all, you are not getting max level in a week or two like you do in wow (not talking about pl'ing)
even the EQ of today takes a long ass time to get to level 105 because you have to grind AA's or you will be severely gimped post 90.
when i first started playing EQ it took me over a year of dedicated playing to reach max level, which included mostly grouping. so endgame content wasn't quite as important as it is in a game like wow because you are getting to the end game extremely quick.
secondly, back in the day EQ had a huge emphasis on grouping. sure it was a grind but it allowed you to actually chat with people in your group and socialize.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Their purpose is to entertain. If they do not entertain we stop playing. Simple.
So yes fun now. Fun every time i play.
And their is not any more or less depth. Their is virtually no more or less significant decisions to make in the majority of games old or new. Eq did not have more depth. You just liked it more and so participated more or liked it less and participated less.
It is fairly clear that EQ had a more in depth system as it offered far more options of different things to do outside of combat.
Exactly, and even the combat was way deeper and more advanced than recent MMO.
Comments
He is actually right in what he says.
Fast food is bad for you, but a lot of people love it and will defend it.
Documentaries are very niche, but teach you more then any of the top grossing movies.
EQ had a lot more depth to it in many ways then MMOs today. It wasn't always a healthy experience due to the time people decided to invest in it, but it's world had a lot of complexities that made it more interesting IMO.
Lol .. EQ has depth? Static spawn as content is the anti-thesis of depth. There is little interactivity to the environment .. and everyone is waiting on having other to do.
If that is depth, i am very glad we have less of that today.
Oh please!!!! he's not right nor wrong. It's just a different opinion like everyone else. He needs to stop making generlizations that what he thinks is superior to others.
Most good food is bad for you, doesn't make it any less good.
Right. More interesting to you and keep it that way. Don't be going and gernerlizing and saying it's better for most becasuse you say so like he does.
Here's my opinion, EQ was a very fun game for it's time. I had alot of fun in it. It was like crack when it first came out but, it's not the great game that you people like to say it is. For one thing it did right, it did so much more wrong. So it's not the holy grail of MMORPGs like you guys like to tout it to be. IMO.
It had depth in that you could actually do more then just grind quests, do PvP that doesn't really matter, and grind for loot.
The crafting was fairly complex.
Things were rare and difficult to acquire.
There were player formed bazaars.
There were a lot more interesting class abilities and variety of abilities.
Classes were actually very different from each other.
You could actually trade items an infinite number of times and it didn't matter that much because the items didn't really have a large impact on your character in most cases. The only time this wasn't true was in items like the ones from Epic quests that were added later.
You had to learn to avoid things like trains.
You had to learn how to share with others and wait your turn (camping).
There were a lot of fun and unique utility spells (I've gone over this in depth before).
There were a variety of different environments to explore and they weren't laid out in any specific order.
Dying stopped you from progressing if you weren't able to defeat your enemies with any form of consistency. Some classes had the ability utility spells that allow them to track corpses that people lost. This made them wanted in groups.
The mobs had a large variety of level range in each zone making them difficult to traverse alone.
The buffing system was a lot more complex then in games today. Buffs lasted a lot longer and not all buffs stacked.
People would actually pay for things like buffs and teleports making the community work together and become more intertwined.
The dungeons were very complex. There were traps, invisible walls, invisible floors, windy tunnels, frozen stairs/bridges you could easily slip off of, pools of lava you had to wade through, cages you could become locked inside of, large underwater areas, etc.
Pulling was another class defining trait. Usually monks or bards would pull because monks had feign death and Bards could lull/mezmerize and take more damage then other classes. Sometimes Druids/Rangers would pull because they had things like harmony, snare, and root.
There were different factions for each race. You could raise your faction by killing the enemy of the faction you wanted to become friendly with. The enchanter had unique spells to help them with factions. They could cast illusion spells to take the form of other races/things and could also cast spells to increase their faction with other factions.
Races each had their own unique starting area and culture. Each one with their own unique factions/beliefs/classes/appearance.
Spells were not given to players. Many times they didn't even know a certain spell existed until it was crafted by another player. I remember when KEI came out people had to pay others to get it. Many spells required that you find certain items needed to craft the spell. I recall that WoW made this easy by having all spells available to purchase. Now they have taken a step further where it is automatically given to you as soon as you level up. Finding/crafting spells was part of the roleplaying/progression experience. It also gave a chance for a little uniqueness as not everyone had everything in game.
There were abilities like sense heading, forage, and tracking that again added to the roleplaying part of the game. They were part of the progression of a character just as much as killing and looting is. Most games only have the killing and the looting these days though because it is simple and everyone understands the value of it.
I could probably come up with more things, but EQ was clearly not a simple game. It had a lot more possible things a player could do/roleplay with and needed to be away of like making sure they have food and drink on hand.
There were some downsides like grinding for certain loot became a bit of an obsession at times. People spent many hours grinding for loot.
I'd like to see what games have as many things that make the classes and world feel as alive as EQ did to me. I think a large part of it was the community, but without the proper tools and world structure the community would have been hard pressed to have become so enthusiastic about playing the game.
Crafting is really not the central part of MMOs anymore .. but i will give you that.
Difficult to acquire != depth. It is difficulty merely because of the wait. So you can't get the gear unless you have time to camp 20 hours. Combat is trivial compared to today's games. There is little resource management aside from mana, no CDs, no procs, no physics based effects.
Interesting class abilities? Like what? 20 versions of direct damage spell that each has a different name with a higher damage?
I will take a game like Diablo 3 any day in terms of combat abilities over EQ type design.
Forming bazaars is not depth ... and is not even in the game. That is no different that people trading Diablo 2 stuff on websites.
I just went over why most of those things added depth, but you only picked the first four lines that were more or less basic ideas with no explanation. This is pretty much why MMOs are bad now. If you can't read my post and the points I made you and likely many others don't have the patience to learn and enjoy the nuances of a game like EQ.
you got it ... there is no patience to play these games. It is about having fun ... NOW.
If i have patience (which unfortunately you will never find out), i will use it on my wife, my kids, my job, my colleagues ... and probably won't waste it on games.
and btw, there is little learning in EQ .. the patience is reserved to wait in down-time. I don't need to learn to stand in line ... i start doing that at check-out lines when i was young.
You have proven in two paragraphs why games have no depth anymore.
Wait, him wanting to have fun NOW and not have the patience for the annoyances of EQ makes all the new games bad and no depth? Am I reading this right? LMAO There it is again, that EQ fan superiority complex. I knew it was going to come out sooner or later.
What makes the game bad and have no depth is people like yourself I would imagine. You can't be bothered to travel. You can't be bothered with any game mechanics then fighting and looting. You can't be bothered with just about anything. What you end up with is basically fighting and looting. Somehow that is the only fun part of games according to people like yourself.
"there is no patience to play these games. It is about having fun ... NOW."
I'm no EQ fan (didn't get my toes wet MMO-wise until WOW came out) and I have no superiority complex, but if you do not see the problem with that quote no one can help you.
Gimme gimme NOW NOW!
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
OK.......What's the problem with the quote? The guy play games for fun, what is wrong with that. So you need patience to play games now? I'm sure i'm not the one needing help here. lol
And you do have a superiority complex. You clearly think your way of playing these games is better than how he plays it.
I personally spent longer periods of time playing old grinder MMO's with little to no questing available then I’m able to stick to new titles for. Mostly due to older titles enforcing a sense of community, it being beneficial to group play though not required or forced.
The concept of endgame was non-existent, just micro goals such as that next level, next map, completing that gear set or unlock that next skill.
To me I dislike end game, if the game is about the end why make me level? if its about the level why make it end?
Joining a grinding party and running into the same player’s day in day out and making friends.
Defending a spawn/farm area (usually against WNx) and making enemies only to meet in whatever little PvP the title had to offer.
The time spent grinding in a group having a laugh with like minded players met along the way.
I spent a lot of time in more modern games also, and also long stay of 4 years non-stop on wow which I still seem to revisit from time to time. It was just never the same as playing the games 10 years ago.
The one thing I do seem to find now days is while playing games there is very few times that users will get added to my friends list, and the ones that do are usually more of a convenience for a possible group in the future.
Back in the day it was a case of being invited to join a group as soon as you login, or inviting whoever may be online on your friends list when somebody was to leave the group.
It’s not just MMO’s that have a massive lack of community now days, it feels like the whole gaming mentality is far too toxic for such thing to exist outside of an extremely niche community such as a group of friends.
so what is the problem with that?
You haven't played a game that has great combat depth, and nothing else?
BTW, i can take a good story with good scripting too. That is not too much wasted time ... as opposed to waiting in line for a static spawn.
Made me laugh^^
I guess it also boils down to how committed people want to feel, do they plan for just a quick run through of content or are they looking for something more. There was also this nice discussion about rp today, which might interest those who find some view points presented here a bit shallow.
What might be a good suggestion, is to try to accept a lot of people really are looking for something more and that studies about markets are never perfect. Besides, whether or not the rpg aspects somehow do get more prevalent in some games, I find it difficult to understand how it could hurt or insult anyone here personally. Nice forum pvp, though. Mostly very civil.
Do mobas also provide pve content as in dungeons and raids?
So many people frown upon loot grinding but then EQ was the same? EQ had massive grinds. You had to grind like crazy to level up and grind like crazy when you hit max level. EQ was even worse for endgame because it only had raiding. There was not even real PvP. So all you had was raids.
Previously
PVE content in MMOs.
EQ - Start up a toon - grind mobs until max level, raid or die.
WOW - start up a toon - grind quests until max level, raid or die.
See the resemblance?
EQ was a pain to level up at launch.
WoW was a pain to level up at launch.
Fast forward to the present.
EQ is ez as shit to level up.
WoW is ez as shit to level up.
16 YEars later, endgame is still raid or die.
Do you guys see something fundamentally wrong with this?
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
No I don't, and enough with inferiority complex. Nothing wrong with knee-slapping shits and giggles types of games, but when your entire mentality boils down to: FUN NOW FUN NOW FUN NOW! And nothing else. Something is off.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
EQ never pretended to be a PVP game, it never advertised it was a PVP game, and 99% of players couldn't have cared less about PVP.
If you joined EQ expecting PVP, it's your own fault, it's like going to an Italian restaurant complaining they don't offer chinese food.
It says Italian restaurant before you go in. Just like everyone knew EQ was a PVE game.
Not sure why after 15 years of the game being a PVE game, this is just dawning on you or something.
PVE games having raids is normal too, welcome to PVE MMO I guess, not sure what you were expecting as endgame, Dance Dance Revolution?
So yes fun now. Fun every time i play.
And their is not any more or less depth. Their is virtually no more or less significant decisions to make in the majority of games old or new. Eq did not have more depth. You just liked it more and so participated more or liked it less and participated less.
Ding Ding Ding....someone gets it.
This is more or less a false statement. You can't just make a blanket statement that all games have x depth. That is like saying all Asian people are nerds. It is fairly clear that EQ had a more in depth system as it offered far more options of different things to do outside of combat. I have already listed many of them, but that has been ignored. When your game consists of DPS and looting that is not an in depth game.
The bigger question is how you could possible be entertained by games with such limited options in terms of things you can do in them and whose sole purpose is to string you along by dangling better items.
yep, EQ was a huge grind far worse than wow. but the difference? first of all, you are not getting max level in a week or two like you do in wow (not talking about pl'ing)
even the EQ of today takes a long ass time to get to level 105 because you have to grind AA's or you will be severely gimped post 90.
when i first started playing EQ it took me over a year of dedicated playing to reach max level, which included mostly grouping. so endgame content wasn't quite as important as it is in a game like wow because you are getting to the end game extremely quick.
secondly, back in the day EQ had a huge emphasis on grouping. sure it was a grind but it allowed you to actually chat with people in your group and socialize.
Exactly, and even the combat was way deeper and more advanced than recent MMO.
EQ = Tank, CC, Healing, Puller, DPS, Support.
WoW = Tank, Healing, DPS, Support
Korean MMO in 2015 = DPS
Sad state of affairs.